Ranger home brew for new player

[Mordante]

In our small party (Catfolk Bard going for Swiftblade, Lizardfolk Hexblade & Gnome Wizard focused on things that go BOOM) we have a new player, and Halfelf Ranger who is going into deepwood sniper. But he really likes shadowy things and shadow magic.

But he doesn't know anything about DnD. I was thinking about removing his rangers spells and giving him MYSTERIES AND PATHS as described in Tome of Magic. If I would give him full Shadow Caster spells per day/spells known. Would that make him too powerful? Should I lower his BAB progression in return?

I think the standard Ranger spell progression is a bit meh.

Who can help out a noob DM.

[Dezea]

Depending on the power level of your campaign, you could even not bother and give him his ranger spell progression AND the shadow spells.

You clearly won't break a ranger like this, I wouldn't be too worried, and it's really nice that you take that time to accomodate a new player to DnD.

[pabelfly]

Shadow magic progression is pretty weak, you should be able to swap Ranger spells for it without issue.

[lylsyly]

Yes, Ranger spell progression is a bit blah! However there some nice spells on that list (swift Haste 2nd level) and others. Giving him/her shadow casting really doesn't matter much. Shadow Casting with it's mysteries and ridiculous progression is actually pretty weak compared to your gnome wizard.

Given your party composition I would simply graft the mysteries onto the ranger chassis and have some fun. Granted it IS up to you as the DM.

Given your party composition you could use some of those ranger spells and the way shadowcasters work is not going to break your game.

I would say go for it. Give him/her the ranger class features including spells starting at 4th. drop the shadowcrafter mysteries on top of that chassis and since it's a new player kind of guide him/her to chosing mysteries that fill a role the rest of the party doesn't cover.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Yeah, just giving them the full Shadowcasting progression should be fine.

If it starts to feel like they're too powerful compared to the other players (which might happen at level 7, where Shadowcasting gets a big boost), you can look at the Mystic Ranger variant, which trades or delays a few class features for better casting, for inspiration on appropriate nerfs. Mystic Ranger is in one of the Dragon Magazines; can't remember which one, but you can easily see the class table with a little googling.

[Troacctid]

If I were doing this, I would give him the adept progression, but instead of the ranger spell list, simply have him prepare spells from the shadowcaster spell list instead, just as if they were normal spells. Or if he wants a faster progression, he could take mystic ranger instead and make the appropriate tradeoffs.

[lylsyly]

Now that I have slept on it there is another option. Give them Bard spell progression but open up the Sorc/Wiz list and let them pull their spells known to fit their theme.

If the player is truly new to D&D spells may be a bit overwhelming. Another option would be to drop the Warlock Invocation system onto the Ranger chassis. This would probably be easier for a new player to manage.

[Mordante]

Now that I have slept on it there is another option. Give them Bard spell progression but open up the Sorc/Wiz list and let them pull their spells known to fit their theme.

If the player is truly new to D&D spells may be a bit overwhelming. Another option would be to drop the Warlock Invocation system onto the Ranger chassis. This would probably be easier for a new player to manage.

I like the Warlock Invocation idea. Thank you.

[Mordante]

If I were doing this, I would give him the adept progression, but instead of the ranger spell list, simply have him prepare spells from the shadowcaster spell list instead, just as if they were normal spells. Or if he wants a faster progression, he could take mystic ranger instead and make the appropriate tradeoffs.

I'll look into this.

[Fizban]

In our small party (Catfolk Bard going for Swiftblade, Lizardfolk Hexblade & Gnome Wizard focused on things that go BOOM) we have a new player, and Halfelf Ranger who is going into deepwood sniper. But he really likes shadowy things and shadow magic.

But he doesn't know anything about DnD. I was thinking about removing his rangers spells and giving him MYSTERIES AND PATHS as described in Tome of Magic. If I would give him full Shadow Caster spells per day/spells known. Would that make him too powerful? Should I lower his BAB progression in return?

I think the standard Ranger spell progression is a bit meh.

Who can help out a noob DM.

Swiftblade is very powerful PrC, but Bard is a much weaker spellcasting base and Swiftblade loses casting levels. Lizardfolk, if being run RAW, is two bad racial hit dice and a point of LA on top while the Hexblade class is not great to begin with. Wizards that go boom are standard.

So you have two characters that may be underpowered and one normal. Said two characters are both magical+martial types who are sacrificing a ton of potential magic for their martial ability. A class with full BAB and 9th level spellcasting (and high skills and bonus feats why not), even if it's technically a bit fewer spells/day than the Wizard, is a slap in the face for 2/3 of the existing party. You think Ranger spellcasting is lackluster? Hexblade is even worse, even if they're not eating the RHD and LA.


I'm rather flabbergasted that there are people who think this is actually just fine.


There are prestige classes in ToM that have partial shadowcasting progression you could use to reverse engineer something like you could from Blackguard to Paladin. Or just give them half caster level and 1 mystery per level starting at 5th. But if you're going to make the Ranger better than the Ranger, you should put some serious thought into making the Hexblade better as well, and making sure the Bard/Swiftblade doesn't end up worse.

As for invocations, that depends on what progression you're using there, but I'm suspicious of the assumption it will immediately be easier for a new player. Sorcerers are "easier" to play for a new player, until you realize they're harder to build and level because the new player will be screwed by even a single bad spell pick. Warlocks have a blast that is always relevant because damage is always relevant, which somewhat alleviates the fact that they can be even more screwed by bad invocation picks than a Sorcerer. Giving a Ranger a couple abilities they can spam is not an upgrade if they end up with things not worth spamming, particularly when the Ranger is a full BAB class that is already meant to spam attack rolls.

Meanwhile their standard spell progression is small and requires actually looking at a list, le gasp- but the player is not punished in any way for their spell picks, having access to the entire list, and plenty of easy to understand options as well as more powerful splatbook tricks if they wish to find them or need to be provided, no retcons required. If the standard progression isn't good enough, increase the base slots, or change it to the Adept progression (and buff the Hexblade to match).

[lylsyly]

I'm rather flabbergasted that there are people who think this is actually just fine.

This is the kind of thing I have been arguing against. There are 2 old qoutes. Worldbuidler's guidebook, TSR 1996 (?) 'If a table gives you a result you don't like throw the table out the window and put in what you want." And there was a quote from the Great Gary Gygax in some interview that went something like "The secret we should never tell them is that they don't really need rules." Neither of these are Verbatum (I used to have the exact quotes and sources on my old windows laptop before it joined the great diode pile in the sky).

Did you actually offer the OP suggestions on how he could possibly help his player choose things that would help the player build his character according to HIS concept? You did poo-poo two of the 3 already existing player's builds (oddly enough you didn't have anything to say about the T1 caster). You also threw poo on other people's suggestions for things to consider to accomodate his players concept.

I'm sorry, but seriously I just don't get it. I admit I went off the rails yesterday in the other thread. But what right does anyone have to say what someone can do at their table? This is a game. games are designed to be fun. As long as that table is having fun and okay with their concept of the game ....


I'm rather flabbergasted that there are people who think this is actually just fine.

[Fizban]

Did you actually offer the OP suggestions on how he could possibly help his player choose things that would help the player build his character according to HIS concept? You did poo-poo two of the 3 already existing player's builds (oddly enough you didn't have anything to say about the T1 caster). You also threw poo on other people's suggestions for things to consider to accomodate his players concept.
I offered one specific and one less specific, though I refrained from mentioning my full tweaks and brew doc since they only asked for one specific thing and that seemed like overkill- but that link is in my signature and thus is always implied.


But what right does anyone have to say what someone can do at their table? This is a game. games are designed to be fun. As long as that table is having fun and okay with their concept of the game ....
The entire point of the thread is asking other people for opinions on what they should do at their table, re: changing the Ranger class. The entire point of a thread, is that it is not a list of one-way messages to the OP, but a place where all posters can see and interact with all the posts.

[Curbludgeon]

Moving past the argument referencing Gygax and such, those are some character concepts which, whether intentionally or inadvertently, are leaving a lot on the table, and reasonable suggestions to address this (if such is seen as a problem) can both come from the ruleset or outside that. Switching out a Ranger's spellcasting for that of a full progression Shadowcaster is clearly in the latter, and so are the following:

Giving a bard 10/10 casting for the Swiftblade PrC would in most circumstances be fine. Not letting it apply to Sublime Chords makes sense, but I'm not remembering offhand if there are other 6/9 classes with associated accelerated PrCs for which this would similarly apply.

The LA of Lizardfolk could get bought off, but Hexblade is so behind the curve that I wouldn't have a problem in game with implementing seemingly preposterous solutions. A simultaneous gestalt of Hexblade/Duskblade/Knight/3.0 Samurai/Soulborn still wouldn't match a wizard, even one that's sandbagging with focusing on evocations, but would have some synergies to play with.

The Mystic Ranger is a lot of fun, and with the SotAO feat and access to a spellbook is a T1 character through 10th level. Jumping through hoops like Dragon Wildshape and Prestige Paladin/Battle Blessing can keep the character viable for a bit, and with feats like Planar Touchstone and Extra Spell can squeak out 9s. While Shadowcasting doesn't play well with Mystic Ranger in the Forgotten Realms lore, I could see a fast progression martial Shadowcaster PrC being fun, as would just swapping out the MR's progression for most of the SC benefits.

[Gruftzwerg]

I would suggest to dip into Swordsage and get some nice fluff abilities.
While tome of battle is mostly melee focused, there is still enough interesting stuff for a ranged build.

A dip at lvl 5 gives you 1 stance and 6 maneuvers (up to 2nd lvl).

Stance:
Blood in the Water: +1 attack & dmg for each crit. stacks

Maneuvers: (pick 6)
Cloak of Deception: Greater Invisibility until end of your turn
Shadow Jaunt: 50ft teleport
Fire Riposte: immediate action 4d6 dmg at someone who did hit you with a melee attack
Sudden Leap: swift action jump/movement to reposition and still have your full attack
Counter Charge: helps against charging enemies
Moment of Perfect Mind: Concentration check instead of Will save
Action Before Thought: Concentration instead of Reflex save
Baffling Defense: use Sense Motive as your AC for a single attack

You could even dip more at later levels for some other stuff. Imho this gives you enough fluff without much effort.

[Mordante]

Moving past the argument referencing Gygax and such, those are some character concepts which, whether intentionally or inadvertently, are leaving a lot on the table, and reasonable suggestions to address this (if such is seen as a problem) can both come from the ruleset or outside that. Switching out a Ranger's spellcasting for that of a full progression Shadowcaster is clearly in the latter, and so are the following:

Giving a bard 10/10 casting for the Swiftblade PrC would in most circumstances be fine. Not letting it apply to Sublime Chords makes sense, but I'm not remembering offhand if there are other 6/9 classes with associated accelerated PrCs for which this would similarly apply.

The LA of Lizardfolk could get bought off, but Hexblade is so behind the curve that I wouldn't have a problem in game with implementing seemingly preposterous solutions. A simultaneous gestalt of Hexblade/Duskblade/Knight/3.0 Samurai/Soulborn still wouldn't match a wizard, even one that's sandbagging with focusing on evocations, but would have some synergies to play with.

The Mystic Ranger is a lot of fun, and with the SotAO feat and access to a spellbook is a T1 character through 10th level. Jumping through hoops like Dragon Wildshape and Prestige Paladin/Battle Blessing can keep the character viable for a bit, and with feats like Planar Touchstone and Extra Spell can squeak out 9s. While Shadowcasting doesn't play well with Mystic Ranger in the Forgotten Realms lore, I could see a fast progression martial Shadowcaster PrC being fun, as would just swapping out the MR's progression for most of the SC benefits.

LA buy off is not something we can really do in our party.

We don't use XP. The DM decides when it's time to level up and then all characters in the party level up. I have never played in a party that tracks XP.

[RNightstalker]

If spells are an issue, there's an ACF that let's a ranger swap out spells for feats.