Extraplanar lore

[Psyche]

Just wanting some lore, I don't have access to a wiki(browser control things) and I am interested. Thanks!

[Psyren]

Just wanting some lore, I don't have access to a wiki(browser control things) and I am interested. Thanks!

I think fixing the bold issue will get you a lot more info in the long run. Which browser do you use and can you use a different one?

[Psyche]

I think fixing the bold issue will get you a lot more info in the long run. Which browser do you use and can you use a different one?
PARENTAL controls on the browser that won't allow me to search for things that aren't specifically allowed

[Millstone85]

PARENTAL controls on the browser that won't allow me to search for things that aren't specifically allowedDoes it allow you to follow a link? Here is the wiki I use the most: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page)

[Brookshw]

Afroakuma on this board is deeply steeped in planar lore and runs a lore thread, you can find the 7th iteration of it here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616081-afroakuma-s-Planar-And-Other-Oddities-Questions-Thread-VIII). Since you can access this board to post, I'm assuming you can access his threads.

[Psyche]

Does it allow you to follow a link? Here is the wiki I use the most: https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Main_Page)
Not really, unless it is specifically allowed. And while my parents tolerate dnd they most certainly wouldn't be gung-ho about letting me visit an hours of study website

[Naanomi]

There also exist places 'outside' The Great Wheel, the most frequently mentioned of which is the Far Realm; an incomprehensible place of madness that is fundamentally incompatible with existence as we understand it. Contact with this place has spawned a lot of aberration monsters (though few actually come from the place directly)

[Psyren]

PARENTAL controls on the browser that won't allow me to search for things that aren't specifically allowed

...repeating my question, can you use a different browser? Do you have a smartphone?

[Psyche]

...repeating my question, can you use a different browser? Do you have a smartphone?
Nope, and microsoft blocking is really hard to get out of(I can circumvent alot of other blockers, including not having a browser and getting to one.)

[Millstone85]

You probably can't follow the link in my signature either, so I will bring the picture here.
Too bad, I wanted the view and potential upvote. :smallbiggrin:

I made this map, which I hope is accurate to the 5e version of the Great Wheel cosmology:
https://i.imgur.com/uyKxhZO.png
The Material exists at the crossroads between four other planes called the Positive, the Negative, the Ethereal and the Astral.

The Positive is an expanse of energy used by most healing spells and also radiant-damage-dealing ones.New souls come into existence here, which I guess makes it what a certain movie calls the Great Before. Also, it is a difficult place to adventure in because creatures get both irradiated and "overhealed" to the point where they explode.

The Material is connected to the Positive through the Feywild, an echo plane that gives every mountain, forest, river, city, etc. of the Material a brighter, more colorful and vibrant reflection. If it ever shows up in that popular show, they could call it the Downside Up. Yet it is a very dangerous place, as the inhabitants (mainly fey) are prone to violent moud swings.

Existing semi-independently from the Feywild are demiplanes called the Domains of Delight, each one ruled by an archfey. Despite the name, you will not necessarily have a good time there.
The Negative is an expanse of energy used by most undead-creating or necrotic-damage-dealing spells.It is ever hungry for souls, to which it promises either oblivion or a very lonely afterlife. It is obviously very difficult to adventure in, as the whole place exists to kill you. Yet, on a cosmic scale, it is a necessary counterbalance to the Positive.

The Material is connected to the Negative through the Shadowfell, an echo plane that gives every mountain, forest, river, city, etc. of the Material a darker, color-drained and bleak reflection. It is often compared to the Upside Down in that popular show I don't watch. It is obviously dangerous, what with all the undead and monstrosities (I wish 5e had "umbral" as a creature type).

Existing semi-independently from the Shadowfell are demiplanes called the Domains of Dread, each one ruled by a darklord. This time the name is accurate, with the darklords themselves being curse-bound to their domains.
The Ethereal is what I interpret as an expanse of energy used by most force-damage-dealing spells.It is also one big blurry grey cloud, where travellers float from one colorful "curtain" to another. These curtains act as portals to a specific subset of the planes: the Material, the Feywild, the Shadowfell and the Inner Planes. You can also get hurled into the Astral by an ether cyclone.

The Inner Planes include the Elemental Planes (of Fire, Air, Water and Earth), intermediaries between them (Ash, Ice, Ooze and Magma), and the Elemental Chaos where all these forces collide. Much of each inner plane is nigh-impossible to survive in but, with the exception of the Elemental Chaos, each one also has an inhabitable region. For example, the Elemental Plane of Water does, surprisingly, possess a surface with breathable air and floating islands, called the Sea of Worlds.

Passing through an ethereal curtain brings you to another plane but actually not quite out of the Ethereal. You are left invisible, inaudible and intangible, which is great for spying but not so much if you are low on food. This state is called the Border Ethereal, though each plane (Material, Feywild, Shadowfell or inner plane) actually possesses its own separate ethereal border.
The Astral is what I interpret as an expanse of energy used by most psychic-damage-dealing spells.It is also one big silvery cloud, where travellers float from one colorful "pool" to another. These pools act as portals to a specific subset of the planes: the Material, the Outlands and the Outer Planes (and the Ethereal, although for the sake of symmetry I would prefer if you got hurled there by a psychic wind).

I consider OotS Thor's description of the Outlands, the Outer Planes and their relationship to the Astral to be the best ever: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html

Now, we have seen that the Material is connected to the Positive through the Feywild, to the Negative through the Shadowfell, and to the Ethereal through its ethereal border. So what would be in-between the Material and the Astral? Well, it recently turned out to be something called Wildspace. In previous editions Wildspace had nothing to do with the Astral, but now it does.

Wildspace is, well, space. As in what you find when you leave a planet's atmosphere. But it is a fantasy version of space, with whale-like creatures moving among asteroids, comets that are actualle elementals, etc. And what is new in this edition is that when you go further away, leaving a planetary system and heading towards the stars, you will progessively shift into the Astral. Which means "the" Material is actually fragmented across the Astral.
Finally, the Far Realm is what lies beyond the Great Wheel. It is known to warp the mind and flesh in Lovecraftian ways and many aberrations owe their existence to it.

[Psyche]

You probably can't follow the link in my signature either, so I will bring the picture here.
Too bad, I wanted the view and potential upvote. :smallbiggrin:

I made this map, which I hope is accurate to the 5e version of the Great Wheel cosmology:
https://i.imgur.com/uyKxhZO.png
The Material exists at the crossroads between four other planes called the Positive, the Negative, the Ethereal and the Astral.

The Positive is an expanse of energy used by most healing spells and also radiant-damage-dealing ones.New souls come into existence here, which I guess makes it what a certain movie calls the Great Before. Also, it is a difficult place to adventure in because creatures get both irradiated and "overhealed" to the point where they explode.

The Material is connected to the Positive through the Feywild, an echo plane that gives every mountain, forest, river, city, etc. of the Material a brighter, more colorful and vibrant reflection. If it ever shows up in that popular show, they could call it the Downside Up. Yet it is a very dangerous place, as the inhabitants (mainly fey) are prone to violent moud swings.

Existing semi-independently from the Feywild are demiplanes called the Domains of Delight, each one ruled by an archfey. Despite the name, you will not necessarily have a good time there.
The Negative is an expanse of energy used by most undead-creating or necrotic-damage-dealing spells.It is ever hungry for souls, to which it promises either oblivion or a very lonely afterlife. It is obviously very difficult to adventure in, as the whole place exists to kill you. Yet, on a cosmic scale, it is a necessary counterbalance to the Positive.

The Material is connected to the Negative through the Shadowfell, an echo plane that gives every mountain, forest, river, city, etc. of the Material a darker, color-drained and bleak reflection. It is often compared to the Upside Down in that popular show I don't watch. It is obviously dangerous, what with all the undead and monstrosities (I wish 5e had "umbral" as a creature type).

Existing semi-independently from the Shadowfell are demiplanes called the Domains of Dread, each one ruled by a darklord. This time the name is accurate, with the darklords themselves being curse-bound to their domains.
The Ethereal is what I interpret as an expanse of energy used by most force-damage-dealing spells.It is also one big blurry grey cloud, where travellers float from one colorful "curtain" to another. These curtains act as portals to a specific subset of the planes: the Material, the Feywild, the Shadowfell and the Inner Planes. You can also get hurled into the Astral by an ether cyclone.

The Inner Planes include the Elemental Planes (of Fire, Air, Water and Earth), intermediaries between them (Ash, Ice, Ooze and Magma), and the Elemental Chaos where all these forces collide. Much of each inner plane is nigh-impossible to survive in but, with the exception of the Elemental Chaos, each one also has an inhabitable region. For example, the Elemental Plane of Water does, surprisingly, possess a surface with breathable air and floating islands, called the Sea of Worlds.

Passing through an ethereal curtain brings you to another plane but actually not quite out of the Ethereal. You are left invisible, inaudible and intangible, which is great for spying but not so much if you are low on food. This state is called the Border Ethereal, though each plane (Material, Feywild, Shadowfell or inner plane) actually possesses its own separate ethereal border.
The Astral is what I interpret as an expanse of energy used by most psychic-damage-dealing spells.It is also one big silvery cloud, where travellers float from one colorful "pool" to another. These pools act as portals to a specific subset of the planes: the Material, the Outlands and the Outer Planes (and the Ethereal, although for the sake of symmetry I would prefer if you got hurled there by a psychic wind).

I consider OotS Thor's description of the Outlands, the Outer Planes and their relationship to the Astral to be the best ever: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html

Now, we have seen that the Material is connected to the Positive through the Feywild, to the Negative through the Shadowfell, and to the Ethereal through its ethereal border. So what would be in-between the Material and the Astral? Well, it recently turned out to be something called Wildspace. In previous editions Wildspace had nothing to do with the Astral, but now it does.

Wildspace is, well, space. As in what you find when you leave a planet's atmosphere. But it is a fantasy version of space, with whale-like creatures moving among asteroids, comets that are actualle elementals, etc. And what is new in this edition is that when you go further away, leaving a planetary system and heading towards the stars, you will progessively shift into the Astral. Which means "the" Material is actually fragmented across the Astral.
Finally, the Far Realm is what lies beyond the Great Wheel. It is known to warp the mind and flesh in Lovecraftian ways and many aberrations owe their existence to it.

I love this thank you!
I have the 5e dm's guide though so I already know most of this. It's still wonderful though!
I am more interested in the people ruling each plane than the planes themselves. (especially carceri, and the demon lords, which (I know it's not a homebrew page but if you have any I would love to see your own)
P.S. What about sigil?
P.P.S. Two things about afroakama's thread(I think that's how it is spelled) one, and I quote: " 4E and beyond are irrelevant to me where this thread is concerned" and two, they talk about things that I wouldn't know how to start. I want to know the basics of who's ruling each plane, then we can get to that stuff. But until I have the basics, there isn't much I can do.

[Sigreid]

...repeating my question, can you use a different browser? Do you have a smartphone?

Not sure it's best to be encouraging the (I assume kid) to sneak around what his parents are comfortable with.

To OP, are you able to get to DM's Guild? You might be able to find some materials there either free or on the cheap.

[Psyche]

I was wondering about not the groups of say demon lords, but lore about the individuals
But since you have said that i'm not being specific enough, koshetcie, the frost giant demon lord from descent into avernus.

[Psyren]

Not sure it's best to be encouraging the (I assume kid) to sneak around what his parents are comfortable with.

You mean the thing you're all doing here? :smalltongue:

But fine, seems like there's folks willing to copy and paste a bunch of it anyway.

[Unoriginal]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}
{Scrubbed}

[Psyche]

Kostchtchie, or the Prince of Wrath, is a Demon Prince who was once an human, before he went to Baba Yaga, mother of all Hags, to change that fact.

His gimmick is he tries to become the Frost Giants', and eventually all Giants', top deity. He's very far from that goal.
Woah. How is he a demon though, has he just spent enough time in the abyss where he can warp it's substance like th other lords can? How is it that he is so powerful?(Cr 25 where Demogorgon and orcus are only 26, and Grazz't(who ive heard is like top three as far as abyss power struggles) is only 23)?
Sorry, i'm a walking quiz, but SO MANY QUESTIONS. Can I let them eat me up from the inside?

[Millstone85]

I am more interested in the people ruling each plane than the planes themselves.
I was wondering about not the groups of say demon lords, but lore about the individualsAccording to Fizban's Treasury of Dragons, the Material was originally created and ruled by Bahamut and Tiamat. And though the First World was shattered in a war against the Outer Planes, every material world since formed remains fundamentally draconic and thus linked to the big B&T.

The Feywild is contested between the seelie and unseelie courts, led by Titania the Summer Queen and Mab the Queen of Air and Darkness. I used the former's symbol on my map.

The Shadowfell is ruled by the Raven Queen, whose symbol I used on my map. Well, she is at least a major player there, alongside the Hexblade (who might be her) and the Dark Powers (who I think she likely numbers amongst).

I know the Elemental Planes have the Princes of Elemental Evil and the Princes of Elemental Good, but I have to Google those...

fire: Imix (evil) and Zaaman Rul (good)
air: Yan-C-Bin (evil) and Chan (good)
water: Olhydra (evil) and Ben-Hadar (good and not to be confused with Hadar the Dark Hunger)
earth: Ogremoch (evil) and Sunnis (good)

Mechanus is ruled by Primus, or at least whichever modron the system has currently put in that role. Arguably, 5e also made Primus the ruler of Limbo, since all order on that plane comes from the Spawning Stone which was retconned as a creation of Primus.

The Nine Hells used to belong to the baatorians and their leader Zargon, until they were ousted by the baatezu (devils) and their leader Asmodeus. 5e has made a couple references to Zargon the Returner, so I guess he is staying true to his moniker.

Then there is the elusive leader of the yugoloths (daemons), the General of Gehenna.

The gehreleths (demodands) of Carceri revere their creator, Apomps. He is from an ancient fiendish race of Hades that was said to have created all fiends, but that conflicts with the current origin story of the yugoloths.

Now sure, Demogorgon is the self-styled prince of all tanar'ri (demons) but Juiblex seems more attuned to the raw corruptive power of the Abyss. 5e presents the alkiliths, which spring from cast-off bits of the Faceless Lord, as the main way to start an abyssal invasion. Nentir Vale and Critical Role instead point to Tharizdun as the creator of the Abyss, but meh.

Zaphkiel is the supreme archon of Mount Celestia.

No clue about other planes.

Edit:

What about sigil?Sigil, the City of Doors, is at the center of the Outlands, more precisely levitating above the plane's central mountain and smugly looking down on the 16 gate-towns.

Sigil is ruled by Her Serenity the Lady of Pain, a mysterious figure who the 5e DMG even suggests might be "the fallen creator of the multiverse". It is also commonly believed that the Cage, another name for the city, might be her prison. I remember 5e giving her a shared secret with the Raven Queen, but not where that was.

[Naanomi]

Traditionally, in the Great Wheel cosmology, no plane is truly or completely controlled by a single entity. Planes were infinite, and even the most influential beings had tentative and incomplete dominion over such unfathomably large places.

The Inner Planes have powerful Archomentals, the most powerful of which are also Gods (though they long predate the concept and existed long before they became such): Grumbar of Earth, Istishia of Water, Kossuth of Fire, and Akadi of Air. Elemental Princes of each element exist (in Good and Evil flavors). 4e Lore would call these beings 'Primordials', but the concept appears to be largely (but not completely) abandoned in the 5e models. The rulers of the Genie races are also very important figures in the Inner Planes; and there are several Gods that dwell there as well.

Prime worlds are... well... diverse. A handful of Gods and a good number of legendary heroes dwell on the Prime but collectively they are the stage at the center of the multiverse where things play out, not influenced by more distant being of power. Powerful dragons have deep connections to the Prime worlds, so may have a bit of a claim to real authority of a sort.
The structure of the Prime worlds is likely to see some shifting in the upcoming Spelljammer books (which seem to return to a more 4e Astral-centric model).

The Energy Planes, Positive and Negative respectively, appear to be hardly 'places' at all, but great Cosmic forces... though things do appear to live there. Historically at least one God dwelled in the Negative Energy Plane. The places 'between' the Energy Planes and the Prime worlds... the Feywild and the Shadowfel... have powerful entities, some of which with absolute control over small domains, but both places seem so disjointed in practice that any single beings claim to dominance would seem dubious. The Fey Courts and the Raven Queen both have relatively more expansive influence.

The transitive planes, the Astral and the Ethereal, are vast and while not empty by any means are more of places 'between' important bits of the cosmology by mortal perception; though a few prominent landmarks and beings of note do make their home there no one would make any serious attempt at claiming to be in charge of either as a whole. In the Astral, the Githyanki queen Vlaakith holds regional importance, and the once-God Anubis has a great deal of control that he rarely chooses to exercize.

The Outerplanes have a tumultuous history, almost every one of them having series of rulers with at least a passingly reasonable claim at authority; most of which with an 'old guard' group of leaders that has faded from relevance on a Planar scale. The 'cardinal planes' (representing the pure alignment pairings) have more semblance of naturally occurring inhabitants and rulers, while the planes between are more... happenstance in the beings that dwell there, most of which migrated from surrounding planes. Gods are at their most powerful here, and a few actually hold positions of greater importance of some kind; though for the most part they are still secondary to the other Outsider rulers of each plane.

Arcadia has several prominent Gods here, and many angels make their bases in the place, but doesn't otherwise have a single ruling individual or group.

Elysium, the plane of Lawful Good, has a strict hierarchy of Archons that has the Hebdomad at the top, which Zaphkiel is in charge of (though frankly he is a bit of a distant figure in practice)

Elysium, the plane of Neutral Good, is inhabited by Guardinals; and Talsid (plus his companions) are what amounts to leadership on the Plane (though inhabitants are so naturally good natured and cooperative that no real leadership is necessary).

The Beastlands are overseen by 'the Animal Lords', collective spirits representing each type of animal on the Prime. The Lord of Cats is the most well known, but in theory one for every type of non-domesticated animal exists.

Arborea, the plane of Chaotic Good, is... a bit of a question in 5e. Earlier lore said that the Eladrin Morwel and her court ruled the Plane but... the term has been coopted by a type of Elf; and Corellon seems to be center stage in the plane from what has been explicitly told to us. The plane was once dominated by some sort of titan/giant celestial being that all disappeared in the very early multiverse (but some of their ruins remain behind).

Ysgard has a few prominent Gods and Bariaur personalities but no real 'leader' to speak of

A side note here: Angels exist and have their own hierarchy and organization that supports the entire Upper Planes but also operate on their own, not really integrated into the larger Outer Planes

Limbo, the place of Chaotic Neutrality, has a handful of 'Slaad Lords' that are theoretically the pinnacle of this place (Ygorl and Ssendam being the most prominent) but... it isn't a place that can be 'ruled' in any meaningful sense, and none of the Slaad lords are prone to doing much 'leading'

Pandemonium is a place of madness, few Gods dwell here and no notable prominent planar entities to speak of

The Abyss, Chaotic Evil incarnate, is one dominated realm after another, every little layer a despotism lorded over by a powerful being. A few such beings... a handful of Gods, Demon Lords, a few other entities... have some claim to larger influence, but only a few and the influence of the other entities against them in the Abyss make any one of them getting much traction as an absolute leader is slim. Names you may have heard of in the running: Demogorgon, Orcus, Grazzt, Lolth, Pale Night, The Queen of Chaos, Pazuzu, Dagon... and a bunch of other big names that wish they had the authority of the beings already listed there. Before the modern demons (called Tanar'ri) existed an older order of demons, the Obyrinth who... well... 5e hasn't clarified the lore here very well. I like to think they were spawned from the primordial Abyss itself, maybe with some Baernoloth help, but some might reach back into Far Realm connections from 4e lore.

Carceri is 'ruled' in a way by the demodand, who venerate their creator Apombs but he doesn't appear to be around doing any actual leadership.

The Grey Wastes of Hades, in addition to being the place of Neutral Evil, is... not a place many people besides a few Gods want to hang out, even the beings 'from' there have mostly left. Baernoloth, ancient fiends of the oldest order, are around doing things but they are rare, reclusive, and mysterious.

The nature of Gehenna is that local rulers are strong but it is impossible to dominate more than your local scrap of turf. The Oinoloth is the leader of the Yugoloth who have made their main base of operation here, though even he wouldn't consider himself a leader of the plane as a whole.

Baator, also known as the 9 Hells, is the plane of Lawful Evil. Asmodeus holds a strict dominance over the place; though his dominance cosmologically isn't as strong as he'd like to present and there are beings that defy him and scheme against him. His true nature is... contentious as best, and he seems to like it that way. Several prominent Gods are imbedded in the politics of the Hells, alongside many Archdevils. The place was once ruled by 'ancient baatorians' that seemed to have disappeared early in Planar history (or, by some tellings, were killed by Asmodeus and his crew) though... a few seem to still linger here and there.

Acheron, like Gehenna, is a place of locally powerful warlords not globally powerful beings. Lots of unfriendly Gods hold dominance over their own little spheres of influence here.

Mechanus, the Lawful Neutral 'clockwork nirvana', is administered by Primus and his modrons; though he is less of a ruler and more of a... something between 'chief bureaucrat' and 'CPU'. A few Gods also bump around here, as well as Fomorians and their leaders.

The Outlands, the place of Neutrality, exists 'in the middle' of the Outer Planes. The Rilmani and their leaders may have some claim to legitimate rulership, though they don't exert it in any meaningful way. They replaced an even more reclusive group of Neutral outsiders, the Kamarel, early in planar history. Like most of the Outer Planes, lots of Gods dwell here.

Sigil, which by some measures sits 'atop' the Outer Planes, is the absolute domain of the Lady of Pain; though to call her a 'ruler' is a bit... off from how she functions in practice.

Places exist outside of the Great Wheel Cosmology as well, places alien and incomprehensible at the best of times. The most well known (such as things are) of these places is the Far Realm; but older lore lays out several other places 'outside' of regular existence, and we know that the Great Wheel is not eternal... it came into existence and some things that linger around predate it.

-----
All that being said...

1) A fair amount of that relies on older lore, especially that of 2e and 3e, to fill in gaps that we just haven't been told anything about in any official capacity

2) 5e Lore isn't particularly internally consistent, and we are not given a lot of concrete answers to big lore questions. Dragon Gods created the Prime but... Aboleth long predate the Gods and dominated the Prime before their coming? It is up to GMs it seems to figure out what that means; and new material (like the upcoming Spelljammer books) don't appear to be beholden to any lore that they have established in 5e (let alone older source material)

[Envyus]

Woah. How is he a demon though, has he just spent enough time in the abyss where he can warp it's substance like th other lords can? How is it that he is so powerful?(Cr 25 where Demogorgon and orcus are only 26, and Grazz't(who ive heard is like top three as far as abyss power struggles) is only 23)?
Sorry, i'm a walking quiz, but SO MANY QUESTIONS. Can I let them eat me up from the inside?

Graz’zt is CR 24.

When evil humans die they can go to the Abyss and turn into Demons, which is what happened to him.
He was willful enough to retain his sense of self then he gained more power until he was declared the Prince of Wrath. While he’s very powerful, he is not very cunning and his rage can cause him to make poor decisions which has limited him.

[Psyche]

Traditionally, in the Great Wheel cosmology, no plane is truly or completely controlled by a single entity. Planes were infinite, and even the most influential beings had tentative and incomplete dominion over such unfathomably large places.

The Inner Planes have powerful Archomentals, the most powerful of which are also Gods (though they long predate the concept and existed long before they became such): Grumbar of Earth, Istishia of Water, Kossuth of Fire, and Akadi of Air. Elemental Princes of each element exist (in Good and Evil flavors). 4e Lore would call these beings 'Primordials', but the concept appears to be largely (but not completely) abandoned in the 5e models. The rulers of the Genie races are also very important figures in the Inner Planes; and there are several Gods that dwell there as well.

Prime worlds are... well... diverse. A handful of Gods and a good number of legendary heroes dwell on the Prime but collectively they are the stage at the center of the multiverse where things play out, not influenced by more distant being of power. Powerful dragons have deep connections to the Prime worlds, so may have a bit of a claim to real authority of a sort.
The structure of the Prime worlds is likely to see some shifting in the upcoming Spelljammer books (which seem to return to a more 4e Astral-centric model).

The Energy Planes, Positive and Negative respectively, appear to be hardly 'places' at all, but great Cosmic forces... though things do appear to live there. Historically at least one God dwelled in the Negative Energy Plane. The places 'between' the Energy Planes and the Prime worlds... the Feywild and the Shadowfel... have powerful entities, some of which with absolute control over small domains, but both places seem so disjointed in practice that any single beings claim to dominance would seem dubious. The Fey Courts and the Raven Queen both have relatively more expansive influence.

The transitive planes, the Astral and the Ethereal, are vast and while not empty by any means are more of places 'between' important bits of the cosmology by mortal perception; though a few prominent landmarks and beings of note do make their home there no one would make any serious attempt at claiming to be in charge of either as a whole. In the Astral, the Githyanki queen Vlaakith holds regional importance, and the once-God Anubis has a great deal of control that he rarely chooses to exercize.

The Outerplanes have a tumultuous history, almost every one of them having series of rulers with at least a passingly reasonable claim at authority; most of which with an 'old guard' group of leaders that has faded from relevance on a Planar scale. The 'cardinal planes' (representing the pure alignment pairings) have more semblance of naturally occurring inhabitants and rulers, while the planes between are more... happenstance in the beings that dwell there, most of which migrated from surrounding planes. Gods are at their most powerful here, and a few actually hold positions of greater importance of some kind; though for the most part they are still secondary to the other Outsider rulers of each plane.

Arcadia has several prominent Gods here, and many angels make their bases in the place, but doesn't otherwise have a single ruling individual or group.

Elysium, the plane of Lawful Good, has a strict hierarchy of Archons that has the Hebdomad at the top, which Zaphkiel is in charge of (though frankly he is a bit of a distant figure in practice)

Elysium, the plane of Neutral Good, is inhabited by Guardinals; and Talsid (plus his companions) are what amounts to leadership on the Plane (though inhabitants are so naturally good natured and cooperative that no real leadership is necessary).

The Beastlands are overseen by 'the Animal Lords', collective spirits representing each type of animal on the Prime. The Lord of Cats is the most well known, but in theory one for every type of non-domesticated animal exists.

Arborea, the plane of Chaotic Good, is... a bit of a question in 5e. Earlier lore said that the Eladrin Morwel and her court ruled the Plane but... the term has been coopted by a type of Elf; and Corellon seems to be center stage in the plane from what has been explicitly told to us. The plane was once dominated by some sort of titan/giant celestial being that all disappeared in the very early multiverse (but some of their ruins remain behind).

Ysgard has a few prominent Gods and Bariaur personalities but no real 'leader' to speak of

A side note here: Angels exist and have their own hierarchy and organization that supports the entire Upper Planes but also operate on their own, not really integrated into the larger Outer Planes

Limbo, the place of Chaotic Neutrality, has a handful of 'Slaad Lords' that are theoretically the pinnacle of this place (Ygorl and Ssendam being the most prominent) but... it isn't a place that can be 'ruled' in any meaningful sense, and none of the Slaad lords are prone to doing much 'leading'

Pandemonium is a place of madness, few Gods dwell here and no notable prominent planar entities to speak of

The Abyss, Chaotic Evil incarnate, is one dominated realm after another, every little layer a despotism lorded over by a powerful being. A few such beings... a handful of Gods, Demon Lords, a few other entities... have some claim to larger influence, but only a few and the influence of the other entities against them in the Abyss make any one of them getting much traction as an absolute leader is slim. Names you may have heard of in the running: Demogorgon, Orcus, Grazzt, Lolth, Pale Night, The Queen of Chaos, Pazuzu, Dagon... and a bunch of other big names that wish they had the authority of the beings already listed there. Before the modern demons (called Tanar'ri) existed an older order of demons, the Obyrinth who... well... 5e hasn't clarified the lore here very well. I like to think they were spawned from the primordial Abyss itself, maybe with some Baernoloth help, but some might reach back into Far Realm connections from 4e lore.

Carceri is 'ruled' in a way by the demodand, who venerate their creator Apombs but he doesn't appear to be around doing any actual leadership.

The Grey Wastes of Hades, in addition to being the place of Neutral Evil, is... not a place many people besides a few Gods want to hang out, even the beings 'from' there have mostly left. Baernoloth, ancient fiends of the oldest order, are around doing things but they are rare, reclusive, and mysterious.

The nature of Gehenna is that local rulers are strong but it is impossible to dominate more than your local scrap of turf. The Oinoloth is the leader of the Yugoloth who have made their main base of operation here, though even he wouldn't consider himself a leader of the plane as a whole.

Baator, also known as the 9 Hells, is the plane of Lawful Evil. Asmodeus holds a strict dominance over the place; though his dominance cosmologically isn't as strong as he'd like to present and there are beings that defy him and scheme against him. His true nature is... contentious as best, and he seems to like it that way. Several prominent Gods are imbedded in the politics of the Hells, alongside many Archdevils. The place was once ruled by 'ancient baatorians' that seemed to have disappeared early in Planar history (or, by some tellings, were killed by Asmodeus and his crew) though... a few seem to still linger here and there.

Acheron, like Gehenna, is a place of locally powerful warlords not globally powerful beings. Lots of unfriendly Gods hold dominance over their own little spheres of influence here.

Mechanus, the Lawful Neutral 'clockwork nirvana', is administered by Primus and his modrons; though he is less of a ruler and more of a... something between 'chief bureaucrat' and 'CPU'. A few Gods also bump around here, as well as Fomorians and their leaders.

The Outlands, the place of Neutrality, exists 'in the middle' of the Outer Planes. The Rilmani and their leaders may have some claim to legitimate rulership, though they don't exert it in any meaningful way. They replaced an even more reclusive group of Neutral outsiders, the Kamarel, early in planar history. Like most of the Outer Planes, lots of Gods dwell here.

Sigil, which by some measures sits 'atop' the Outer Planes, is the absolute domain of the Lady of Pain; though to call her a 'ruler' is a bit... off from how she functions in practice.

Places exist outside of the Great Wheel Cosmology as well, places alien and incomprehensible at the best of times. The most well known (such as things are) of these places is the Far Realm; but older lore lays out several other places 'outside' of regular existence, and we know that the Great Wheel is not eternal... it came into existence and some things that linger around predate it.

-----
All that being said...

1) A fair amount of that relies on older lore, especially that of 2e and 3e, to fill in gaps that we just haven't been told anything about in any official capacity

2) 5e Lore isn't particularly internally consistent, and we are not given a lot of concrete answers to big lore questions. Dragon Gods created the Prime but... Aboleth long predate the Gods and dominated the Prime before their coming? It is up to GMs it seems to figure out what that means; and new material (like the upcoming Spelljammer books) don't appear to be beholden to any lore that they have established in 5e (let alone older source material)


Okay some hypotheticals here for my own campaign:
How hard would it be for a CR 30 magical Darklord to escape his dread domain with a bit of Help:
Phobia Talos: A god of Fear that roams the shadowfell, Phobia escaped his Dread Domain through the use of exceptional magical abilities and the ancient research of Strahd and Azalin Rex. Phobia is brutal, killing his victims in the following manner:
He makes them face their worst fears, killing them painfully (with his whip or dagger that removes the soul) if they refuse or are too cowardly to face them. Those who beg him for mercy or are able to face their fears are able to avoid their deaths by becoming one of his Dread Legion

How quickly could a newly formed Demon become a demon lord?
How quickly could a Horned devil with necromancy powers, an Ice devil with 20th level vengeance paladin powers, and a Bone Devil that's a 20th level fighter, working in tandem, rise up to archdevil status?
Could an all four elements bender become as powerful as a primordial on the elemental planes?
Could a character (Such as luna lovegood) tap into the essence of the ethereal plane?
Would six from little nightmares fit better into a Dread domain or carceri?
Could there be angels more powerful than the solars?
Could a powerful archfey gain dominance of a sizeable(let's say half) portion of the feywild?
Could a winter wolf tap into the essence of Ysgard/the beastlands?
Could fra'zz urbluu be as or more powerful than gra'zzt with his staff?

Some planar questions:
Why is frazz'urbl'uu so weak?
How powerful are the archdevils compared to a demon lord?
How strong are the elemental Princes? Why are they weaker than the elder elementals from mordenkainens?
Is orcus stronger or weaker than demogorgon?
Anubis is a once god? Is this the Egyptian guy or someone else?
One internal inconsistency that i've seen is the nature of mephistophiles. Could you clarify that for me?
Who is talised? I would hate to be pushy but for most of the names on this list(Besides demon lords and archdevils) I have that and only that: a name.
And lastly a little nugget I picked up: Who/what/?????????????? is tituuvius(Thats the name right?) and how on earth does the guy manipulate dispater of all people?

[Millstone85]

That's a truckload of questions and I am at a loss with every single one of them. :smalleek:

[Naanomi]

I'm answering these questions with an eye on older edition lore when 5e hasn't answered them already

How hard would it be for a CR 30 magical Darklord to escape his dread domain
Almost impossible, the number of times a Darklord has gotten out of their dread domain is perhaps... five or six times? And only one of those was a real 'escape'


How quickly could a newly formed Demon become a demon lord?
Unknown, we don't have a ton of examples of demons transitioning all the way from mortal soul to Demon Lord. I suspect the process could actually be very quick, the Abyss is fickle with its favor and demons can make huge power jumps devouring their kin and the like


How quickly could a Horned devil with necromancy powers, an Ice devil with 20th level vengeance paladin powers, and a Bone Devil that's a 20th level fighter, working in tandem, rise up to archdevil status?
While powerful, status in Baator is rarely based on pure power... there are stronger Devils out there in terms of combat power than lots of the Archdevils. It is more about political ability and gaining Asmodeus' favor than anything else, and shakeups are rare


Could an all four elements bender become as powerful as a primordial on the elemental planes?
Bender? Avatar style? Probably not... (and again, primordials are a pretty shaky concept in 5e lore so it is hard to specify what we are talking about)


Could a character (Such as luna lovegood) tap into the essence of the ethereal plane?
With the right spells? Sure, lots of magic directly or indirectly uses Ethereal forces


Would six from little nightmares fit better into a Dread domain or carceri?
I'm not very familiar with the character, but a quick review shows her current form as more monstrous and savage than the sort of psychological malaise of the Shadowfel


Could there be angels more powerful than the solars?
Historically yes, there are orders above Solars


Could a powerful archfey gain dominance of a sizeable(let's say half) portion of the feywild?
No. The Feywild, like most planes, is infinite. Half of it doesn't make sense. The domains of the strongest Archfey may be planetary in scale (though that would be rare at best), but against infinite...


Could a winter wolf tap into the essence of Ysgard/the beastlands?
An individual? Sure, probably. Some Winter Wolves are tied to the Frost Giants of Ysgard. They tend towards evil though, so I would suspect the Beastlands would be more rare (it is a decidedly Good place)


Could fra'zz urbluu be as or more powerful than gra'zzt with his staff?
I doubt it, Gra'zzt is commonly listed as a candidate for Prince of Demons; among the top ten demons by most measures. Fraz-Urb'luu isn't usually in that league. That being said, power is hard to directly compare for beings at that level of power.


Why is frazz'urbl'uu so weak?
On a planar scale? He is bad at playing politics or dominating others to serve him. He has lots of enemies. On a combat scale? He isn't a fighter, he is a trickster


How powerful are the archdevils compared to a demon lord?
Tough to compare, and largely they don't come into direct conflict often. I'd say the average Archdevil is stronger than the average Demon Lord, but... there are Demon Lords strong enough to give any Archdevil pause


How strong are the elemental Princes? Why are they weaker than the elder elementals from mordenkainens?
They are powerful, akin to weaker Demon Lords and the like. I wouldn't put a ton into the stats we get of powerful individuals from modules and compare them to monsters and the like, but... a quick look shows Imix at CR 19 while a Phoenix is only CR 16... The Elemental Princes are also intelligent and have servants in a way that most elementals don't


Is orcus stronger or weaker than demogorgon?
Physically weaker, and less dominant in the Abyss. He wants the title of Prince of Demons, and hasn't been able to claim it. That being said, again direct power levels are not always telling and hard to judge directly at such a scale


Anubis is a once god? Is this the Egyptian guy or someone else?
The God Anubis, of the Egyptian pantheon, was chosen by higher powers to guard the bodies of dead Gods and was empowered with abilities beyond that of simple divinity (including no longer being dependent on worship)


One internal inconsistency that i've seen is the nature of mephistophiles. Could you clarify that for me?
I don't understand the question, unless you mean just general lore drifting between editions


Who is talised? I would hate to be pushy but for most of the names on this list(Besides demon lords and archdevils) I have that and only that: a name.
Talisid the Celestial Lion is the leader of the leonals, the most powerful Guardinal (which are the Neutral Good celestials), and as close to a 'ruler' of Elysium as is possible. He is sort of a cosmic paladin most of the time, running around with his Companions doing good and adventuring on a cosmic scale


And lastly a little nugget I picked up: Who/what/?????????????? is tituuvius(Thats the name right?) and how on earth does the guy manipulate dispater of all people?
Titivilus is a servant of Dispater who ran a lot of the functional politics of the second layer of hell. Dispater is defined by his paranoia and almost never leaves his stronghold on Dis, so leaves a lot to Titivilus (who is noted to be exceptionally intelligent and clever). He is, all things considered, a pretty good vassal to Dispater by the standards of the Hells

[Scarytincan]

MrRhex on YouTube

[Psyche]

Why is gra'zzt so strong? Can someone take his sword the way tasha took fr'azz urbl'uu's staff

[Naanomi]

Why is gra'zzt so strong? Can someone take his sword the way tasha took fr'azz urbl'uu's staff
Gra'zzt is among the most socially adept and successfully manipulative demons. His strength isn't martial (well, he is good at that also...), it is in alliances and servants and unwitting pawns. He is in the running for Demon Prince because of that, not because he could beat up Demogorgon. He is uniquely the only demon lord to control multiple levels of the abyss

[Psyche]

Okay, two things, first of all isn't frazz urbluu a better manipulator(he is the prince of deception, who can convince angels he is an angel) and second, doesn't demogorgon control 2 layers representing his dual nature?

[Naanomi]

As far as I know, Demogorgon only controls the 88th level of the Abyss (the Gaping Maw); Graz'zt controls the 45th, 46th, and 47th

The Demon Prince of Deception is a just an assigned title, not a divine mantle... It doesn't bestow any powers and he won't be stripped of it if someone else is better than him. But, that being said, it is possible that Fraz-Urb'luu is a better liar and more skilled illusionist than Graz'zt (I'm not sure); but that doesn't mean he is a better manipulator... And he certainly doesn't have a talent for collecting allies or attracting minions; almost no one likes the guy (whereas Graz'zt, by the standards of the Abyss, is very popular)... And he is never counted among the demons capable of claiming the title of Prince of Demons (a list that varies between 3 and maybe... 12 candidates)

[Psyche]

How powerful is frazz urbluu's staff? Staff of power level? Staff of the archmagi level? Better?
Could vladeska drakov(falkonovia's darklord) escape by admitting defeat? Could any darklord beat the dark powers by losing their vices?
How often do the Fey and celestial's interact?
How powerful is Zvylmia(islode's mortal enemy)
Is the raven queen a dark power?
Is it possible to say... Gate directly to a domain of dread, or would other methods (such as catching a ride on the carnival be easier?) Are the dark powers powerful outside of ravenloft?
Could strahd escape Barovia (Van ritchten's says azalin rex studied with him, and azalin escaped)?
Could strahd actually catch tatyana?
Isn't tatyana the actual bad guy in strahd's story?
How old is Ivan Dyslina actually?
Would it be possible for a city to have permanent portals to each plane?
P.S. Sorry for misspellings, doing this from memory.

[Naanomi]

How powerful is frazz urbluu's staff? Staff of power level? Staff of the archmagi level? Better?
It has only been stated out once that I know of (in a magazine, said to combine the powers of a staff of command, rod of bewildering, and rod of rulership); but in practice it is a Minor Artifact (like most similar things), putting it at or above the level of Legendary magic items in 5e terms.


Could vladeska drakov(falkonovia's darklord) escape by admitting defeat? Could any darklord beat the dark powers by losing their vices?
In theory, any dark lord can escape by overcoming the things about themselves that attracted the Dark Powers' attention to begin with. In practice, it has happened at best a handful of times ever. The Dark Powers select individuals for torment in part because they are the exact kind of people who will never overcome their flaws.


How often do the Fey and celestial's interact?
In this edition, I suspect not much (though probably some through Corellon Larethian or maybe other Powers in Arboria). Older editions (before the Feywild was created) had more ties, and the classic Chaotic Good Outsiders were pretty Fey-like themselves


How powerful is Zvylmia(islode's mortal enemy)
Zybilna? Iggwilv was among the greatest and most famous spellcasters in the current era of the Planes, a master demonologist... casually casts the wish spell... had a famously diverse collection of powerful magic items... effortlessly lived in the lower planes and had a demon-prince lover before becoming an archfey... back in 2e it was suggested that she was a character in the mid 30s, and she would be significantly stronger now


Is the raven queen a dark power?
Almost certainly not. 5e lore has her as an Elven... quasi-deity? In 4e she was more explicitly just an idiosyncratic God.


Is it possible to say... Gate directly to a domain of dread, or would other methods (such as catching a ride on the carnival be easier?)
Editions have varied but... I assume so? Once you are in, though, getting out isn't as easy; and the Dark Powers are rarely kind to uninvited guests.

[QUOTE=Psyche;25563318]Are the dark powers powerful outside of ravenloft?
No way to answer this. The Dark Powers are one of the great unanswered questions of D&D Lore (intentionally). Except for snatching people up via the Mists, they have never demonstrably done anything outside of Ravenloft; though there are theories floating around as to their true nature that imply they may have some power beyond their domains.


Could strahd escape Barovia (Van ritchten's says azalin rex studied with him, and azalin escaped)?
Theoretically, yes... in practice? I doubt it, he is particularly central to the whole Ravenloft schema; the Dark Powers are not going to let him go (nor is he really primed to make the kind of personal growth to escape the 'expected' way)


Could strahd actually catch tatyana?
Doubtful? Only if the Dark Powers willed it, and probably then only to rip her away or torture him in some other way


Isn't tatyana the actual bad guy in strahd's story?
This is a narrative question, not a lore question


How old is Ivan Dyslina actually?
Time is pretty meaningless in most of the Dread Domains, and I'm not sure we have a firm 'current date' in 5e... he was born in 689, and the last 'now' in 2e Ravenloft was 756... but the amount of time between the end of 2e and 'current' 5e would be challenging to calculate


Would it be possible for a city to have permanent portals to each plane?
Well, no... 'each plane' is pretty expansive; and permanent portals to some planes would be suicidal. Heck, a permanent portal to most planes would probably eventually be ruinous for any place on the Prime.

[Millstone85]

How often do the Fey and celestial's interact?
In this edition, I suspect not much (though probably some through Corellon Larethian or maybe other Powers in Arboria). Older editions (before the Feywild was created) had more ties, and the classic Chaotic Good Outsiders were pretty Fey-like themselvesThe MM has a couple celestials who regularly interact with fey:

"Deva are angels that act as divine messengers or agents to the Material Plane, the Shadowfell and the Feywild" the latter of which would naturally involve meeting fey, on purpose or not.
Unicorns are, surprisingly, celestials. Still, "Unicorns most often serve deities of the forest and woodlands, including the gods of benevolent fey" and "Pixies, sprites, satyrs, dryads, and other normally mercurial fey loyally serve a unicorn when they dwell within its woods".


Is the raven queen a dark power?
Almost certainly not. 5e lore has her as an Elven... quasi-deity? In 4e she was more explicitly just an idiosyncratic God.Does being a quasi or full deity preclude one from also being a dark power?

Anyway, there is a bit of lore in MToF, page 61, that would easily paint the Raven Queen as a dark power: "Once at their destination, the shadar-kai watch and wait, looking for the tragedies their queen wishes them to collect. Sometimes they are small: a spurned lover, a lost item, a betrayal. But some tragedies are much graver: a murder, a war, a diabolical bargain. To bring back a trinket for their queen, the shadar-kai use their shadow magic. If a targets is living, they magically infiltrate the person's mind and excise the desired bits of emotion, or if the target is close to death, the shardar-kai capture the whole soul to bring back to the Raven Queen."


Isn't tatyana the actual bad guy in strahd's story?
This is a narrative question, not a lore questionIf we go with the old adage that "Every villain is the hero of his own story" then Tatyana would indeed be the villainess in Strahd's. Why, if only she had reciprocated his feelings, none of that misery would have befallen him. And he went to such efforts too: making a pact with the Dark Powers, killing his own brother (her fiancee), all to retrieve the youth that was clearly the only thing he was lacking to be the perfect lover.

Otherwise, no, she is not. Strahd is a man who commited atrocities all because he couldn't accept a woman refusing herself to him. In modern Internet slang, he would be an incel festering with toxic masculinity.

[Psyche]

Isolode is the darklord of the carnival(well, her sword is, she is the only one who communicates with it on a regular basis, so yeah). From van ritcheten's guide to ravenloft: "In time, Isolode's heroics caught the eye of an archfey named Zyblina who had forged secret pacts with some of the fiends isolode had slain." How powerful is this particular archfey? Do we know? I am assuming she is unseelie, but do we know?

Moving on to Iggwiliv(tasha right? That is how I am going to be referring to her in this). How interesting one must be to be Gr'azzt's lover, and keep him. Or was she just a really tolerant person? How hard is it to defend oneself from demons without being Chaotic Evil(she is CN, right?) How did she catch gr'azzt's fancy? Does this prove that even the demon lords have some spark of good in their hearts? Is it possible to redeem an archdevil or demon lord(Zariel is a weird case cause she didn't start out a devil)? Perhaps even shift from archdevil or demon lord to the other like gr'azzt is said to have done?

[Naanomi]

Does being a quasi or full deity preclude one from also being a dark power?
Kind of, or at least... if she is a Dark Power she is one secretly and distinctly from being... whatever else she is. The nature and identity of the Dark Powers is one of the intentionally unanswered and unanswerable questions of D&D Lore; and I would submit the Raven Queen is too public a figure to really qualify for the role. (That being said, there are hints as to what their nature might be a few times, with at least five prominent theories played with in lore)


How powerful is this particular archfey? Do we know? I am assuming she is unseelie, but do we know?
She is Tasha, transformed into an archfey after falling out with her hag coven. Her court affiliation, if any, is not known (this edition hasn't really explored the details a ton of fey courts, but as an ex-hag I would suspect she isn't associated with any court)


Or was she just a really tolerant person? How hard is it to defend oneself from demons without being Chaotic Evil(she is CN, right?)
She is probably the most powerful fiend summoner and binder ever in the Great Wheel, she knew how to handle 'safely' binding a demon lord if anyone could. Of course, in the end she suffered greatly for having done so and when she tried a second time Graz'zt was ready and did capture her and tortured her in his realm for years before adventurers freed her. So... love is relative and he is still a demon.


How did she catch gr'azzt's fancy?
She summoned and bound him in 460 CY and then they sort of... mutually seduced each other. She bore him a son, Iuz, later the same year. He was willingly serving her and giving her gifts unprompted by 480 CY; but by 491 CY he had secretly turned on her and orchestrated her downfall


Does this prove that even the demon lords have some spark of good in their hearts? Is it possible to redeem an archdevil or demon lord(Zariel is a weird case cause she didn't start out a devil)?
To be pedantic, almost none of the archdevils started out as devils. And I'm not sure it means they have a 'spark of good'; but yes it is possible for a fiend to 'ascend' and eventually transform into a celestial. In practice it is much more rare than the reverse, on the order of 'has only happened a few times in planar history' rarity. The NPC from PS:T (Fall-From-Grace) is likely a Succubus in the process of transforming into a celestial


Perhaps even shift from archdevil or demon lord to the other like gr'azzt is said to have done?
That is 4e lore, so I'm not in a great position to comment on it. It would theoretically be possible though; there are Lawful Good Archons who became Chaotic Good Asuras

[Millstone85]

Moving on to Iggwiliv(tasha right? That is how I am going to be referring to her in this). How interesting one must be to be Gr'azzt's lover, and keep him. Or was she just a really tolerant person? How hard is it to defend oneself from demons without being Chaotic Evil(she is CN, right?) How did she catch gr'azzt's fancy?And so today I learned that The Wild Beyond the Witchlight gave Tasha's alignment as CN. Well, that is a big LOL, because according to the wiki 1e, 3e and 4e all agreed that she is CE. Which, given her long time partnership with both Baba Yaga and Graz'zt, she really ought to be.


Isolode is the darklord of the carnival(well, her sword is, she is the only one who communicates with it on a regular basis, so yeah). From van ritcheten's guide to ravenloft: "In time, Isolode's heroics caught the eye of an archfey named Zyblina who had forged secret pacts with some of the fiends isolode had slain." How powerful is this particular archfey? Do we know? I am assuming she is unseelie, but do we know?
She is Tasha, transformed into an archfey after falling out with her hag coven. Her court affiliation, if any, is not known (this edition hasn't really explored the details a ton of fey courts, but as an ex-hag I would suspect she isn't associated with any court)Yup, the wiki does present her as "Iggwilv, also known as Tasha or Natasha, and the alias Zybilna". And rereading Isolde's story in VRGtR, I am all the more baffled anyone could think Tasha CN.


And I'm not sure it means they have a 'spark of good'; but yes it is possible for a fiend to 'ascend' and eventually transform into a celestial. In practice it is much more rare than the reverse, on the order of 'has only happened a few times in planar history' rarity. The NPC from PS:T (Fall-From-Grace) is likely a Succubus in the process of transforming into a celestialOther examples I know of are:

Eludecia, another succubus. While FfG is a cleric, Eludecia is a paladin.
Felthis ap Jerran, an ultroloth, known for ruling the Outlands' gate-town to Elysium.
K'rand Vahlix, a hamatula (barbed devil) who was accepted on Bytopia.

The last one is most interesting because his thing is finding other risen fiends, rooting out any who are faking it, and organising the others into a very atypical heavenly host. He has been successful in that endeavor, which would imply that risen fiends are not so rare after all.

Now yes, page 7 of the 5e MM says that "If an evil celestial is a rarity, a good fiend is almost unconceivable" but we all know that examples of fallen celestials are legion even in this edition:

Zariel was an angel before becoming the main archdevil of Avernus.
Legends tell that the first erinyes were fallen angels.
The flaming horses known as nightmares are corrupted pegasi.
Dungeon of the Mad Mage includes a fallen planetar among its villains.
Eberron follows different rules but I think that radiant idols still count.

It is just too attractive a trope. And I think that once you have a bunch of fallen celestials you might as well have lots of risen fiends too.


That is 4e lore, so I'm not in a great position to comment on it. It would theoretically be possible though; there are Lawful Good Archons who became Chaotic Good AsurasSay 5e were to bring back archons and guardinals (with Planescape on the way, it might happen) what would you think of asuras as a replacement for pre-4e eladrin?

[Naanomi]

Say 5e were to bring back archons and guardinals (with Planescape on the way, it might happen) what would you think of asuras as a replacement for pre-4e eladrin?
I think they could use the name, but I don't think they should be 'fallen sideways' archons the way classic asuras are.

I like 2e 'Eladrin' conceptually, they could easily strip the fey trappings and appearance from them and keep the interesting bits

[Psyche]

If you had to rank each plane by how pervasive they are on a material(prime) world, what would the order be?
What if those portals were 1 way for creatures not specifically allowed in; you said that any city on the material plane would be destroyed by the portals, but what if there was some sort of filter?

How strong is Kas? He challenged a god, so Isn't all that is trapping this lord of secrets the fact that he has no idea what is going on and isn't likely to find out?

Can Jubilex's portal opening things serve other demons?
How sentient is Jubilex?
How powerful is the devi deal(for example, I, greater deity, make a deal with an imp for his service in exchange for killing a good human as an experiment, I don't kill the person, so now what?)
How reliable is a deal with a demon/yugoloth?
Is it possible to get those yugoloth books and command every denizen of the plane(besides the Big shot ultroloth)?

And finally, The baby in yellow, what would it be?(i'm thinking demon ruling a small demiplane stuck on the abyss, but it could be something else)

[Naanomi]

If you had to rank each plane by how pervasive they are on a material(prime) world, what would the order be?
There are too many planes to do this easily. In general, the Inner Planes are not as... disruptive... as the Outer Planes to mortal life, and there have been places with specialized portals there (a small, guarded portal to the Elemental Plane of Water feeding a fountain in the desert or the like) that are not disastrous. Even ignoring the creatures, the energies that pour out of any of the Outer Planes just have... bad effects... in the long run, even those from the Upper Planes. Of course, the Far Realm and the Cerebrotic Blots portals can generate even with brief contact are civilization ending in many cases. More exotic places... the energy planes, the temporal plane... would likely be just as bad.


How strong is Kas? He challenged a god,
Notably, Kas the Bloody handed challenged Vecna BEFORE he was a God. Last time we saw him (that I know of), he was a Vestige and basically didn't exist anymore. At his prime he was a very skilled warrior, a vampire, and had good magic items... but didn't hold significant power beyond that.


so Isn't all that is trapping this lord of secrets the fact that he has no idea what is going on and isn't likely to find out?
I'm sorry, I don't understand this question


Can Jubilex's portal opening things serve other demons?
Other demons might slip through his gates, but he isn't going to open any for anyone else intentionally


How sentient is Jubilex?
Hard to say, given the kind of being he is; but... I'd say 'not very' but 'enough to still hold some sort of animosity with a few other beings'


How powerful is the devi deal(for example, I, greater deity, make a deal with an imp for his service in exchange for killing a good human as an experiment, I don't kill the person, so now what?)
By and large, devil's deals are not somehow magically binding... they are enforced by devils; or on death by planar mechanics of how souls transition. If you are a being of significant power that it would take a lot of resources for a devil (or his superiors) to punish you they probably don't... one reason why Devils don't really deal with deities in that way. Of course, if you were not evil to begin with; the corruption they caused by having you even agree to such a thing is probably at least a consolation prize.


How reliable is a deal with a demon/yugoloth?
Most Yugoloth will follow a contract as long as it suits them and they don't get a better offer... and as long as it wasn't some sort of scheme to begin with. Probably about as trustworthy as making a deal with a human really. Demons... well... contracts and following them are things of law, there is a reason demonologists rely on mystical enforcement. A few of the more sociable demon lords have better track records in such regards than their kin.


Is it possible to get those yugoloth books and command every denizen of the plane(besides the Big shot ultroloth)?
Theoretically, perhaps. Someone would put a stop to it before it got really out of hand, and the likelihood of managing to secure one to begin with is... minimal (or else Asmodeus would have done it by now)


And finally, The baby in yellow, what would it be?(i'm thinking demon ruling a small demiplane stuck on the abyss, but it could be something else)
I'm not super familiar with the franchise, but... he seems to be a reference to Hastur, and a quick look at the wiki makes me feel he is perhaps an Obyrith demon or Far Realm being; and his parents are cultists. I see no reason that the setting isn't taking place in a location on the Prime Material Plane, albeit perhaps a corrupted one.

[Millstone85]

I have been informed that Tasha's alignment changes are a plot point in The Wild Beyond the Witchlight and that is why there is a statblock somewhere that describes her as CN.


If you had to rank each plane by how pervasive they are on a material(prime) world, what would the order be?
There are too many planes to do this easily. In general, the Inner Planes are not as... disruptive... as the Outer Planes to mortal life, and there have been places with specialized portals there (a small, guarded portal to the Elemental Plane of Water feeding a fountain in the desert or the like) that are not disastrous.Two interesting quotes on this:
The storms that move across [the Sea of Worlds] sometimes create temporary portals to the Material Plane and draw ships into the Plane of Water. Surviving vessels from countless worlds and navies ply these waters with little hope of ever returning home.
Once you discover that all oceans connect to the Elemental Plane of Water and that the Elemental Planes connect to all worlds, you begin to grasp the interconnectedness of the multiverse. Dive to the bottom of any sea, and you may later resurface under an alien sky.
It looks like you could mix Spelljammer with 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea for a maritime adventure across multiple material worlds. :smalltongue:

By the same logic, you could mix Spelljammer with Journey to the Center of the Earth (I sure love Jules Verne) because all underdarks probably connect through the Plane of Earth. :smallbiggrin:

Speaking of Spelljammer, I don't know if that is mentioned at all in the new books, but it is not rare for a world's sun to be linked to the Plane of Fire. Such is the case with the sun of Realmspace, which could have become a world like Toril but was instead set aflame by the goddess Selûne reaching into a land of eternal fire. :smallcool:


How sentient is Jubilex?
Hard to say, given the kind of being he is; but... I'd say 'not very' but 'enough to still hold some sort of animosity with a few other beings'The importance of ooze in D&D is rather terrifying when you think about it:

The Far Realm has a region called the Amoebic Sea.
The demon lord Juiblex might be mentally linked to all oozes in the Wheel.
The para-elemental plane of mud is instead known as the Plane of Ooze.
And then there is Ghaunadaur, a god who has been active in the Far Realm, the Abyss and the Plane of Ooze!


You really have got to wonder how plasmoids feel about all this.


How reliable is a deal with a demon/yugoloth?
Most Yugoloth will follow a contract as long as it suits them and they don't get a better offer... and as long as it wasn't some sort of scheme to begin with. Probably about as trustworthy as making a deal with a human really.For what it is worth, yugoloths are known to accept to have their contracts marut-enforced (MotM p173). It is a pretty big deal, ridiculous even, because now there is a CR25 construct that exists solely to ensure that both parties follow the terms of that one contract. Buf of course, the marut will "care nothing for the spirit of an agreement, only the letter" and yugoloths likely have a lot of experience playing the system.

[Psyche]

It looks like you could mix Spelljammer with 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea for a maritime adventure across multiple material worlds. :smalltongue:

By the same logic, you could mix Spelljammer with Journey to the Center of the Earth (I sure love Jules Verne) because all underdarks probably connect through the Plane of Earth. :smallbiggrin:

So sorry if me posting this here offends you, but I am running a multiplanar(actually 24 planes, all except sigil) campaign and I would love it if you would join! I know this isn't my own personal advertising forum but I couldn't resist! You two(or more ) could correct me on my lore as it comes up, so if you like the idea check it out!
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?648977-Crete-a-city-that-exists-on-all-planes-at-all-times-An-intriuge-campaign&p=25563190#post25563190

[Naanomi]

(actually 24 planes, all except sigil)
Technically Sigil isn't a plane, it is a location in the plane of the Outlands

'all 24'...
17 Outer
4 Inner (in current model)
2 Energy
1 Prime
2 Transitive
2 Parallel
1 Far Realm (not technically a plane)

Older planar models would add a few more in there as well

[Millstone85]

'all 24'...
17 Outer
4 Inner (in current model)
2 Energy
1 Prime
2 Transitive
2 Parallel
1 Far Realm (not technically a plane) 5 Inner, actually. Don't forget the Elemental Chaos.
Or 9 Inner, even, if you count the para-elemental planes.

The Ethereal could also count as two planes: the Deep Ethereal and the Border Ethereal. Or as many more than that, if you consider how the Material, the Feywild, the Shadowfell and each of the Inner Planes have their individual borders.

So the most generous count would be... 46 planes!


I would love it if you would join!I have an idea for a character but it is not ready. It might even need a homebrew thread.

[Naanomi]

5 Inner, actually. Don't forget the Elemental Chaos.
Or 9 Inner, even, if you count the para-elemental planes.
In older editions, there were 18 inner planes (including the two energy planes). Also the Temporal plane as well

But pre 4e lacks the Feywild in the way we would recognize it now; and the Shadow Plane was significantly different as well.

Of course there were a handful of 'theorized' planes (the Ordinal most prominently)... And other Cosmologies out there beyond the Great Wheel... And the doesn't really exist and yet...' place of Vestiges...

[Psyche]

Okay here is the list(not in order):
1: Ravenloft(counting as 1)
2: Deep Ethereal
3: Astral
3: Feywild
4: 16 outer planes
5: 4 Primary elemental planes
SORRY doing this from memory.

[Millstone85]

Okay here is the list(not in order):
1: Ravenloft(counting as 1)So the Shadowfell and/or the Domains of Dreads that are semi-independent from it. Ravenloft proper is a castle in the dread domain of Barovia.


2: Deep EtherealNo Astral? Are you making the Ethereal the only transitive plane? If so, does it become possible to cast etherealness while on an outer plane?


3: FeywildOkay.


4: 16 inner planesI think you meant outer planes. And are you sure that you want to ignore the Outlands?


5: 4 Primary elemental planesJust the four classics, alright.

And then I suppose the 24th plane is the Material where your city is located.

[No brains]

I bestow the crown of Best User to Naanomi for dutifully answering the questions of a newbie excited about the lore of the game. Ur crown -> MMM You've cast Greater Restoration on my faith in the 5e community.

[Naanomi]

I bestow the crown of Best User to Naanomi for dutifully answering the questions of a newbie excited about the lore of the game. Ur crown -> MMM You've cast Greater Restoration on my faith in the 5e community.
I like talking old edition lore, usually people on this forum eventually jump on me because it isn't canon anymore but I am happy to pontificate on the subject when it is relevant

[Psyche]

I personally love it, I am a person who wants to have a strong "factual" basis but still the ability to be creative with making up my own lore. I don't know what is canon and what is not anyway.

[Naanomi]

I personally love it, I am a person who wants to have a strong "factual" basis but still the ability to be creative with making up my own lore. I don't know what is canon and what is not anyway.
D&D canon has always been very fluid, but especially in this edition... Even in monster manual entries it is questionable what is 'fact' and what is just in-game scholarly speculation, and no author has ever been particularly beholden to what anyone before that has written (which has made lore a bear to comb through sometimes, and made characterization inconsistent)

[Psyche]

So, um what would happen in that above hypothetical where the portals only allow in certain creatures and block planar energy?
In out of the abyss, there are several open portals that remain open a very long time. Why does this not affect the underdark? Why does banishing the demon lords get rid of it?
Gra'zzt doesn't seem super evil to me, what are some of his greatest evil acts?
Orcus is strong, but how did he challenge vecna? Was it just that he had home turf advantage? Can Vecna concievably beat orcus?
Tasha and mordenkainen are rivals. What would you say mordenkainen's Cr/Power level when compared to her? Why can't he beat strahd? What is the story with him in Baldur's Gate, and how does that affect the questions above?

[Thrudd]

So, um what would happen in that above hypothetical where the portals only allow in certain creatures and block planar energy?
In out of the abyss, there are several open portals that remain open a very long time. Why does this not affect the underdark? Why does banishing the demon lords get rid of it?
Gra'zzt doesn't seem super evil to me, what are some of his greatest evil acts?
Orcus is strong, but how did he challenge vecna? Was it just that he had home turf advantage? Can Vecna concievably beat orcus?
Tasha and mordenkainen are rivals. What would you say mordenkainen's Cr/Power level when compared to her? Why can't he beat strahd? What is the story with him in Baldur's Gate, and how does that affect the questions above?

That's pretty much all information you need to decide for yourself. There isn't some sort of history book full of lore and stats for these beings. And you don't necessarily need to decide every detail before your game starts. There is no real D&D canon. The books are normally written with the intent of giving you starting ideas, nothing more. As you know, information has changed in every edition, and different settings in the same edition can have different lore, too. Switch your thinking - create your own canon. You can use all the planes and monsters in the book, some of them, or completely invent your own. It's actually pretty easy to adapt published modules and monsters to your own version of the setting. I guarantee you are thinking about these beings and how things work more than the people who actually wrote the books did.

[Psyche]

So, um what would happen in that above hypothetical where the portals only allow in certain creatures and block planar energy?
In out of the abyss, there are several open portals that remain open a very long time. Why does this not affect the underdark? Why does banishing the demon lords get rid of it?
Gra'zzt doesn't seem super evil to me, what are some of his greatest evil acts?
Orcus is strong, but how did he challenge vecna? Was it just that he had home turf advantage? Can Vecna concievably beat orcus?
Tasha and mordenkainen are rivals. What would you say mordenkainen's Cr/Power level when compared to her? Why can't he beat strahd? What is the story with him in Baldur's Gate, and how does that affect the questions above?
I guess so? I would still like others' opinions on those questions

{Scrubbed}

[Naanomi]

So, um what would happen in that above hypothetical where the portals only allow in certain creatures and block planar energy?
Depends a bit on the kinds of creatures allowed. No planar energies (if they were more like permanent teleportation circles) helps keep the inherent disaster potential down; but you still risk extraplanar invasion or becoming a battleground for the blood war or something


In out of the abyss, there are several open portals that remain open a very long time. Why does this not affect the underdark?
The Underdark has its own magic on Toril that probably helped resist but... There were effects, very strong ones... People turning cannibalistic and all kinds of things of that nature... And those portals were open for a fairly brief period of time all things considered (less than one full year)


Why does banishing the demon lords get rid of it?
Probably specific to the situation of OotA


Graz'zt doesn't seem super evil to me, what are some of his greatest evil acts?
Betraying his lover, later capturing her and torturing her for over a year; capturing a goddess of wealth and attempting to corrupt her and/or steal her divinity; fostering cults on many worlds that foster betrayal and living sacrifices; killing his children when they grow powerful to steal their essence and strengthen himself; orchestrated the capture and torture of young Eladrin at the end of the war of law and chaos;


Orcus is strong, but how did he challenge vecna? Was it just that he had home turf advantage? Can Vecna conceivably beat orcus?
Unlike most demon princes, Orcus has some legitimate spiritual connections to undeath conceptually; so he had an 'in' to challenging the power of the not-yet-divine Vecna. Now that Vecna is a God, he could probably take Orcus in a fight but... Neither are the type to conflict so openly or directly as a brawl


Tashas and mordenkainen are rivals. What would you say mordenkainen's Cr/Power level when compared to her? Why can't he beat strahd? What is the story with him in Baldur's Gate, and how does that affect the questions above?
Oh, he is probably a more skilled wizard than Tasha; but both are up in the epic levels somewhere so it would be hard to draw direct parallels.

We are not given a direct answer as to why he couldn't stand up to Strahd, but I suspect the underlying answer is 'the Dark Powers didn't want them to and it is their show to run as they please'

When was Mordenkainen in Baldur's Gate? He runs around Waterdeep sometimes, and spent time recovering there after going mad... But he is over that mostly now so I see no reason to think he isn't back up to full strength

[Psyche]

I mean baldur's gate the adventure, where he has that tower or whatnot. Wasn't he like controlling an army of Devils? Anyway, if he is a CN character than tasha is as well. I will make his stat block(probably use halastar's as a baseline) somewhere within the next week or so.
Type of creature: Only those specifically let in by the king, kinda like how that drow mage from Oota"s tower worked: He senses when a creature is trying to enter, senses what type, alignment, etc. and then decides whether or not to always let them in or just this once.
As for invasion(don't tell my players) but in that campaign the city is invaded by bane's forces, the king 1v1s bane, and WINS. So, yeah, invasion not a problem.
I still just like Gra'zzt (in a strictly heterosexual way). What has fr'a'zz urbl'uu done, and why is his chosen form a gargoyle(a very chill one at that)? Is fra'zz urbl'uu able to trick the other demon lords? If there was a war between Demogorgon, orcus, Gra'zzt, and Jubilex and zuggtomy as allies, whose side do you think old Frazzy would take(if any) and what could he do to influence it?

[Naanomi]

I mean baldur's gate the adventure, where he has that tower or whatnot. Wasn't he like controlling an army of Devils? Oh, that. He wasn't in the city Baldur's Gate, he had moved his plane-hopping tower to Baator to study the effects of magic there


Anyway, if he is a CN character than tasha is as well. I will make his stat block(probably use halastar's as a baseline) somewhere within the next week or so.
He is famously either True Neutral, or Lawful Neutral (strictly following a True Neutral 'balance' ethos)


What has fr'a'zz urbl'uu done, and why is his chosen form a gargoyle(a very chill one at that)?
Oh, demons don't get to choose their appearance. It is a result of all kinds of random factors and manifestations of their nature; none of them 'chose' their appearance (except perhaps Pale Night or Pazuzu). At to what he has done... We don't have great info beyond his famously getting captured by mortals a few times. We do know he was one of the more powerful and influential demons when tanar'ri first grew to prominence (during the war of law and chaos)


Is fra'zz urbl'uu able to trick the other demon lords?
He has before, though he isn't particularly successful over all at it. Much better deceiver of mortals really. We don't have any good specific examples, other than to say he did it.


If there was a war between Demogorgon, orcus, Gra'zzt, and Jubilex and zuggtomy as allies, whose side do you think old Frazzy would take(if any) and what could he do to influence it?
He isn't much of a side taker, but he may stir the pot as he is able. Probably against Gra'zzt if he could manage it, they don't like eachother. Orcus doesn't like home much either, but it isn't as personal. And, for what it is worth, there has been a functional war between some of those guys for tens of thousands of years at least

[Envyus]

And so today I learned that The Wild Beyond the Witchlight gave Tasha's alignment as CN. Well, that is a big LOL, because according to the wiki 1e, 3e and 4e all agreed that she is CE. Which, given her long time partnership with both Baba Yaga and Graz'zt, she really ought to be.

Yup, the wiki does present her as "Iggwilv, also known as Tasha or Natasha, and the alias Zybilna". And rereading Isolde's story in VRGtR, I am all the more baffled anyone could think Tasha CN.


This is because of plot reasons in Wild Beyond the Witchlight.
She turned into a Fey being to hide herself from her enemies as part of the process to do this, she magically removed some of her worst feelings and incarnated them as minor demons she keeps in her room. (If these demons die the negative emotions they are associated with return to her). She reinvented herself as a kindly fairy godmother, but can't quite fully sell the act as flashes of her old self still shine through on occasion even with most of her evil feelings removed.

[Envyus]

He isn't much of a side taker, but he may stir the pot as he is able. Probably against Gra'zzt if he could manage it, they don't like eachother. Orcus doesn't like home much either, but it isn't as personal. And, for what it is worth, there has been a functional war between some of those guys for tens of thousands of years at least

All of those demon lords are still fighting in fact. Also everyone hates Orcus.

[Naanomi]

All of those demon lords are still fighting in fact. Also everyone hates Orcus.
Almost everyone hates Demogorgon as well.
And yes, they are still 'fighting'... but not particularly vigorously all the time

[Envyus]

Almost everyone hates Demogorgon as well.
And yes, they are still 'fighting'... but not particularly vigorously all the time

Oh yeah they almost all conflict. But Demogorogon can get alliances and stuff going with others if needed. Orcus can't even do that, it's stated that all the other major demon lords hate him and he hates everyone as well and any co operation is basically impossible.

[Naanomi]

Oh yeah they almost all conflict. But Demogorogon can get alliances and stuff going with others if needed. Orcus can't even do that, it's stated that all the other major demon lords hate him and he hates everyone as well and any co operation is basically impossible.
Rarely though... Demogorgon is no politician either. He just has a few powerful consistent allies (and his title) to bully people into temporary subservience

[JackPhoenix]

I bestow the crown of Best User to Naanomi for dutifully answering the questions of a newbie excited about the lore of the game. Ur crown -> MMM You've cast Greater Restoration on my faith in the 5e community.

While I like Naaomi's answers, I'd like to point out they mostly talk about older lore, which may not be relevant in 5e (Not that 5e's own lore is always relevant within itself, with the retcons we've been getting recently).


Also everyone hates Orcus.

The feeling's mutual. But then, Orcus hates everyone. Including himself, probably.

[Naanomi]

While I like Naaomi's answers, I'd like to point out they mostly talk about older lore, which may not be relevant in 5e (Not that 5e's own lore is always relevant within itself, with the retcons we've been getting recently).
Absolutely true, we don't have 5e answers for most of these questions (or we have to infer a lot from very little information that seems to reference old lore but not explore it). I try to be clear about that earlier in the thread; and new material could obliterate any of this (or obliterate any standing 5e lore as well)