High Sword Low Axe Mechanics

[Rensalorath]

I just made a character that uses the High Sword Low Axe feat because I liked the idea of a free trip attempt just for hitting with both weapons. The trouble is, when I was adding up modifiers for his trip attempt, I was uncertain which modifiers to use.

1) Is it simply that the target is "drawn off balance" and so I use the base rules and treat it as an unarmed melee touch attack?

2) Is it that my character hooks the targets legs with the hand axe and so it is treated as tripping with a weapon?

3) Is it something else I hadn't considered?

[ciopo]

basically you make the trip attempt without it costing you an attack, you use the normal rules for making a trip, so

1) melee touch attack that doesn't provoke an AoO
2) if that hits, opposed strenght check ( with the +4 bonus from improved trip and any other bonuys you might have)
3) if you win the opposed strength check, you can make a free attack from improved trip

[Rensalorath]

Ok. I understand what you are saying. I guess for further clarification I was unsure whether to treat it as

1) unarmed melee touch attack and use just my ability modifier to represent "drawing target off balance"

or

2) armed melee touch attack and also add in the modifiers for Weapon Focus and any enhancement modifier on the handaxe to represent hooking the target's leg with my "low axe" and tripping.

[Telok]

I don't recall the exact text of the feat. Was it more like "if you hit with both weapons you get to make a free attack to trip the target" or more like "if you hit with both weapons make a free trip attempt"? Because you may not need to make an additional touch attack roll of its more like the latter wording.

That said, as its conditional on whacking with weapons I'd say its an armed/weapon based trip attempt. That way you can drop the weapon if you roll low and they try to trip you back.

[Drelua]

"If you hit the same creature with both your sword and your axe in the same round, you may make a free trip attempt against that foe.

I would guess based on this wording that you make the attempt as you usually would, following all the normal rules, including a regular touch attack. If I were GMing I might allow you to use your bonuses with the axe on the touch attack, but on the other hand melee touch attacks aren't usually hard to make.

I also notice that it says "in the same round," not turn, so I think this could trigger even if it isn't your turn. If you've hit someone with your axe on your turn, and then on their turn they provoke an AoO and you hit with your sword, I think you would then be able to try to trip them.

[holbita]

As I understand it, if you hit with both you directly go for a trip attempt. To me that means go to the strength check, no need for AoO, regarding the modifiers and such the feat does not restrict you to any particular way to the the trip attempt... so if your weapon boosts your tripping use your weapon, nothings says this is a forced unarmed trip attempts.

[Rensalorath]

Thanks so much for the helpful replies.

[Darg]

As I understand it, if you hit with both you directly go for a trip attempt. To me that means go to the strength check, no need for AoO, regarding the modifiers and such the feat does not restrict you to any particular way to the the trip attempt... so if your weapon boosts your tripping use your weapon, nothings says this is a forced unarmed trip attempts.

I agree with this reading. The text doesn't tell you which weapon or to use your UAS, and the plain text tells you "You have mastered the style of fighting with sword and axe at the same time, and have learned to use this unusual pairing of weapons to pull your opponents off their feet." You are using both weapons to trip them. It's very similar to Two Weapon rend which also doesn't have you attack again.

[Drelua]

As I understand it, if you hit with both you directly go for a trip attempt. To me that means go to the strength check, no need for AoO, regarding the modifiers and such the feat does not restrict you to any particular way to the the trip attempt... so if your weapon boosts your tripping use your weapon, nothings says this is a forced unarmed trip attempts.

There definitely isn't an AoO, since the feat requires improved trip so if you have high sword, low axe your trip attempts should never provoke. And they don't provoke if you're tripping with a weapon anyway, which I did not realize until I was halfway through writing this.

I have some kinda convoluted reasoning on why I think RAW would be to make the touch attack, which I'm not sure is how I'd rule it, but if I was going for a stricter interpretation I might. So, the first line under the Trip special attack (PHB 158) says:

Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.

And the text of Improved Trip says:
Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when you attempt to trip an opponent while you are unarmed

Since the touch attack is the part that provokes, and Improved Trip says you no longer provoke "when you attempt," It follows that the touch attack is when you are attempting to trip. I think. And High Sword Low Ace says you may attempt. So, touch attack? It's also possible that Improved Trip just wasn't being specific and the whole thing is the attempt, but even in that case the touch attack must be part of an attempt based on this wording, so make an attempt would still mean start with the touch attack.

It's also possible, (which is to say, almost certain) that I am reading into things in ways the writers never intended. So interpreting it differently might be a good idea.

[AnimeTheCat]

There definitely isn't an AoO, since the feat requires improved trip so if you have high sword, low axe your trip attempts should never provoke. And they don't provoke if you're tripping with a weapon anyway, which I did not realize until I was halfway through writing this.

I have some kinda convoluted reasoning on why I think RAW would be to make the touch attack, which I'm not sure is how I'd rule it, but if I was going for a stricter interpretation I might. So, the first line under the Trip special attack (PHB 158) says:


And the text of Improved Trip says:

Since the touch attack is the part that provokes, and Improved Trip says you no longer provoke "when you attempt," It follows that the touch attack is when you are attempting to trip. I think. And High Sword Low Ace says you may attempt. So, touch attack? It's also possible that Improved Trip just wasn't being specific and the whole thing is the attempt, but even in that case the touch attack must be part of an attempt based on this wording, so make an attempt would still mean start with the touch attack.

It's also possible, (which is to say, almost certain) that I am reading into things in ways the writers never intended. So interpreting it differently might be a good idea.

I would be inclined to agree with your sentiment if it said that you make a free trip attack, but this is less like that and more like the free trip attempt (this is the part that makes me think it avoids the touch attack; free trip attemp tvs free trip attack) that a wolf gets. The last sentence says "if this attempt fails..." which leads me to believe that the attempt comes after the touch attack. So, something that says "make a free trip attack" would mean you make that initial touch attack. Something that says "make a free trip attempt" means no touch attack necessary, just do the opposed roll.

[Drelua]

I would be inclined to agree with your sentiment if it said that you make a free trip attack, but this is less like that and more like the free trip attempt (this is the part that makes me think it avoids the touch attack; free trip attemp tvs free trip attack) that a wolf gets. The last sentence says "if this attempt fails..." which leads me to believe that the attempt comes after the touch attack. So, something that says "make a free trip attack" would mean you make that initial touch attack. Something that says "make a free trip attempt" means no touch attack necessary, just do the opposed roll.

Good point, not sure if I agree. The wording is different, "free trip attempt" should probably be interchangeable with "can attempt to trip as a free action," but The Wolf's trip ability then goes on to say that it doesn't have to make the touch attack or provoke, while High Sword Low Axe doesn't make either statement. It doesn't have to say you don't provoke because you have Improved Trip, but when two abilities let you trip someone, one says you don't have to make the touch attack and the other doesn't, I'd be inclined to say you make the touch attack on the one that doesn't say you don't. On the other hand, the feat is worded kinda clumsily, so assuming it works like a similar ability might be a good idea.