How are gestalt actually leveled up?

[ciopo]

Greetings, I've never used gestalt before, buy daydreamed about it, but I never made any stub before today, when I got inspired by a different thread

and now I'm confused, I'm probably missing something obvious and doing it wrong.

class features and skill points and HD are simple enough, but BAB and saves are confusing me.

On the assumption of no fractional BAB/saves, and only looking at BAB for the moment ( but saves would have a similar result? maybe)

the way 'm reading it, a fighter 1/wizard19//sorcerer20 would have a BAB of 20, and that feels disturbingly incorrect to me, if that's the result of "staggering" the two poor BAB classes in such a way that they do a "+1 BAB" every level, but alternating.

the only guideline I see int he srd is "A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however."

step by step:

first level, fighter 1 / sorcerer 1, fighter BAB is 1, sorcerer BAB is 1
second level, +1 wizard level / +1 sorcerer level, BAB doesn't improve on the left side, BAB improves on the right side, result BAB increases by 1
and repeat to have BAB 20

That sounds wrong to me, and there is probably a simplier and more natural process that currently isn't occurring to me.

a little help or clarification? thanks ^^

[Ramza00]

Just use Fractionals or limit Multiclassing if you can not stand using Fractionals

[Fiery Diamond]

Greetings, I've never used gestalt before, buy daydreamed about it, but I never made any stub before today, when I got inspired by a different thread

and now I'm confused, I'm probably missing something obvious and doing it wrong.

class features and skill points and HD are simple enough, but BAB and saves are confusing me.

On the assumption of no fractional BAB/saves, and only looking at BAB for the moment ( but saves would have a similar result? maybe)

the way 'm reading it, a fighter 1/wizard19//sorcerer20 would have a BAB of 20, and that feels disturbingly incorrect to me, if that's the result of "staggering" the two poor BAB classes in such a way that they do a "+1 BAB" every level, but alternating.

the only guideline I see int he srd is "A gestalt character follows a similar procedure when he attains 2nd and subsequent levels. Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics. A few caveats apply, however."

step by step:

first level, fighter 1 / sorcerer 1, fighter BAB is 1, sorcerer BAB is 1
second level, +1 wizard level / +1 sorcerer level, BAB doesn't improve on the left side, BAB improves on the right side, result BAB increases by 1
and repeat to have BAB 20

That sounds wrong to me, and there is probably a simplier and more natural process that currently isn't occurring to me.

a little help or clarification? thanks ^^

Well, for starters, fractional BAB/Saves is the superior method of handling BAB/Saves unless you are trying to do optimization cheese. Gestalt is already an alternate rule, so holding onto non-fractional BAB/Saves because "fractional is alternate not default" is kind of dumb. The "simpler and more natural process" is just using fractional BAB/Saves. Honestly, as a DM, I'd never allow someone to end up with doubled BAB because "I was just using non-fractional BAB!"

That said, yes, if you're not using fractional BAB/Saves you end up with crazy stupid high/low values when multiclassing or gestalting. Your intuition on what it "should" be is irrelevant if you're not using fractional values, because not using fractional values results in absurdity. Not using fractional values will seem wrong, because it's a RAW-idiocy on par with drown-healing. It's just more obvious that that's the case when having staggered effects in gestalt because of the low effort required to achieve it; but regular multiclassing can do the same sort of nonsense (usually with high/low saves and low BAB).

A Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Sorcerer 20 would have a BAB of +10 using fractional BAB. +1 at first level, +2 at third level, all the way up to +10 at nineteenth and twentieth level. Much, much more reasonable, and more in line with how gestalt is supposed to work.

As an alternative approach (not using fractional BAB), you could NOT view each increase as another +1 to your BAB, but take it as basically two charts (one for each side), and use the highest value.

(Level)Fighter/Wizard Side//Sorcerer Side
(1)+1//+0
(2)+1//+1
(3)+2//+1
(4)+2//+2
(5)+3//+2
(6)+3//+3
...
(19)+10//+9
(20)+10//+10

This approach doesn't use fractional values, but still winds up giving you the same BAB as using fractional values would. This is how I would recommend gestalt be handled, actually, if you don't want to use fractional values because they're too complicated or something.

[ciopo]

Oh don't misunderstand me, I totally prefer fractionals! But the table I play with doesn't use it (I have asked), and as we've bled players those of us remaining, as an alternative to recruiting (what with the small local pool of players etcetera), gestalting ushas been a consideration!

And now that you mentioned it, comparing and picking the best of (BAB/saves) of [fighter1/wizard1] and [sorcerer 2] makes much more sense! Thank you!!

(I'll just try convincing using fractionals tho, they're much more tidy)

[Fiery Diamond]

You're welcome! Glad I could help.

[Biggus]

As far as I can see, the problem comes from the ambiguity of these two sentences:


Each time he gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.


Base Attack Bonus: Choose the better progression from the two classes.

The way I read "progression" (and the way I'm quite sure it's intended to be read) for a Wizard is "once every two levels, your BAB goes up by 1". A literal reading of the first sentence however suggests that it means you just take the numbers as they appear in the chart and apply them as written, which as you note can lead to an absurd situation of your BAB going up every level when it shouldn't.

If you're not using fractional BAB, treating each sides' progression separately as Fiery Diamond suggests is probably the best solution.

[Crake]

As far as I can see, the problem comes from the ambiguity of these two sentences:





The way I read "progression" (and the way I'm quite sure it's intended to be read) for a Wizard is "once every two levels, your BAB goes up by 1". A literal reading of the first sentence however suggests that it means you just take the numbers as they appear in the chart and apply them as written, which as you note can lead to an absurd situation of your BAB going up every level when it shouldn't.

If you're not using fractional BAB, treating each sides' progression separately as Fiery Diamond suggests is probably the best solution.

Yeah, I think this is what makes the most sense to me, Wizard and Sorcerer both have "poor" bab progression, so with Fighter 1/Wizard 19//Sorcerer 20, you'd have 1 level of good bab progression, and 19 levels of poor bab progression. That remains true regardless of whether you use fractional bab or not. Fractional bab comes into play when you want multiple different kinds of progression to interact with one another, for example taking 1 level of medium bab and 1 level of poor would result in 1.25 bab, rounded down to 1. Taking another level of medium bab would bring that to 2, but another level of poor would only bring it to 1.75, again rounded down to 1.

[Chronos]

No class has a class feature that says "your BAB goes up by 1 this level". BAB in a class depends on all of the levels you have in that class before that. It's a progression.

So, for your fighter 1/wizard 19 // sorcerer 20:

At first level, your BAB is indeed +1 from the fighter.

At second level, you can choose to gain BAB progression from either side. If you choose the sorcerer side, then you have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 1. You don't have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 2, because you didn't get BAB from the sorcerer side at both levels, only at second level. So your BAB is still just +1.

At third level, you could choose to gain BAB progression from the wizard side, in which case you would have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 1/wizard 1, or still only +1. But you'd be better off taking it from the same side as you did last level, fighter 1/sorcerer 2, in which case you'd have +2.

Following along like this, the best you'd have would be:
CL BAB
1 1
2 1
3 2
4 2
5 3
6 3
7 4
8 4
9 5
10 5

etc.

[Crake]

No class has a class feature that says "your BAB goes up by 1 this level". BAB in a class depends on all of the levels you have in that class before that. It's a progression.

So, for your fighter 1/wizard 19 // sorcerer 20:

At first level, your BAB is indeed +1 from the fighter.

At second level, you can choose to gain BAB progression from either side. If you choose the sorcerer side, then you have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 1. You don't have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 2, because you didn't get BAB from the sorcerer side at both levels, only at second level. So your BAB is still just +1.

At third level, you could choose to gain BAB progression from the wizard side, in which case you would have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 1/wizard 1, or still only +1. But you'd be better off taking it from the same side as you did last level, fighter 1/sorcerer 2, in which case you'd have +2.

Following along like this, the best you'd have would be:
CL BAB
1 1
2 1
3 2
4 2
5 3
6 3
7 4
8 4
9 5
10 5

etc.

I think a better way to look at it would be X levels of poor/medium/good bab progression, and then look at the table in the start of the classes section of the players handbook, see what each level of each progression gives you, and add them up. So in the case above, you'd have 1 level of good progression, and 19 levels of poor progression. 1 level of good gives you 1 bab, and 19 levels of poor give you 9 bab, add them together and you get 10 bab.

[ciopo]

For nonfractional, what Fiery Diamond intuited is what makes the most sense to me now, relative to BAB and saves : treat the two sides as if they were two separate characters of whatever class combination that side is made of, and pick whichever value of BAB/saves is higher in it's totality, and not "level by level"

A 5th level druid 4/ranger 1 //( 1each of shair/wizard/sorcerer/psion/wilder) will have BAB 4 and saves 6/3/4 on the left side, and BAB 0 and saves 0/0/10 on the right side, for a combination of BAB 4 amd saves 6/3/10

[lylsyly]

We almost always play gestalt at our table. To get rid of the headaches of BAB & Saves we came up with this ...

First Base Attack Bonus! So a fighter is better at picking up a rock and hitting a squirrel than a wizard is? Why???
All PCs get full BAB tied to your ECL not class levels.

Second is Saves! So a Rogue is inherently better at dodging something than a Wizard of the same race is? None of the 7 of us buy that. Solution?
All PCs get all good saves tied to ECL not class levels.

As an aside we also eliminate all CON penalties from races and templates. CON is basically Health. Health is more about doing the right things instead of the bad things so why should a race or template effect that.

Just some food for thought. None of the above changes are going to break your game and it sure makes the book keeping easier ;-)

[Crake]

First Base Attack Bonus! So a fighter is better at picking up a rock and hitting a squirrel than a wizard is? Why???

Uhh... because the fighter trained to be good at hitting things? Do you give the fighter spellcasting while you're at it?

[lylsyly]

Uhh... because the fighter trained to be good at hitting things? Do you give the fighter spellcasting while you're at it?

Uhh... I grew up hunting squirrels with a single shot .22. Was in the Army for 13.5 years and shot expert every year. Guess what ... I was a paper pusher! My comment still stands.

[Ualaa]

The sidebar for Unearthed Arcana (where Gestalt first appeared) suggested using fractional BAB and Saves.

If you were to go with:
Fighter 1 | Sorcerer 1

With fractional Fighter contributes 1.00 and the Sorcerer contributes 0.50.
So the 1.00 is better.
Without fractional, the Fighter adds +1 and the Sorcerer adds +0.

Without fractional, you could continue like this:
Wizard 1 | Sorcerer 2
Wizard 2 | Sorcerer 3

The Wizard adds +0 and the Sorcerer adds +1 BAB.
Next level the Wizard adds +1 and the Sorcerer adds +0 BAB.

You'd end up (without fractional BAB) as +20 BAB...
As a Fighter 01 / Wizard 19 || Sorcerer 20.

-------------------------

With Fractional BAB.
If a class has +20 BAB at level 20, they add 1.00.
If a class has +15 BAB at level 20, they add 0.75.
If a class has +10 BAB at level 20, they add 0.50.

Fighter 1.00 or Sorcerer 0.50, go with the 1.00.
Sorcerer 0.50 or Wizard 0.50, either way it is 0.50.

--------------------------

Fractional saves are the same.

Basically at level one, a good save has 2.50
And a poor save has 0.33.

They demonstrated it as /12ths in the sidebar.

You have 2 and 06/12 with a good save.
Or 0 and 04/12 with a poor save.
At least at first level.

Then regardless of classes getting a larger bonus at their level one, you go with character level not class level thereafter.

If either class has a good Fort, you add 06/12 to their total.
If neither class has a good Fort, you add 04/12 to their total.

Repeat the same process for Ref and Will saves.

-----------------------------------
Whether you level the Fighter side or the Sorcerer side first doesn't matter.
They effectively happen at the same time.

[lylsyly]

Fractional BAB and saves were more for multiclassing than gestalt.

Ultimate Gestalt would be full bab, all good saves, full casting. There are only a few combinations that pull that off.

Since any armor interferes with arcane casting monk is the obvious choice at first, even if you skip on wisdom to AC you still get AC and movement bonuses as long as you are unarmored, plus all good saves which totaled just adds to your survivability as an arcane caster.

Monk can work with druid as stated above but your still at medium bab so not quite there.

Ranger /// Cleric (or even better Cloistered Cleric for the added skills) may leave you with light armor because of your Ranger Features but will leave you with full bab, all good saves, a pretty decent skill list and the skill points to do something with it and proficiency with martial weapons (a boost for cleric). Plus there are some good spells on the Ranger list. Of course there are some ACFs that you can trade out those features limited to light armor so .....

[InvisibleBison]

Uhh... I grew up hunting squirrels with a single shot .22. Was in the Army for 13.5 years and shot expert every year. Guess what ... I was a paper pusher! My comment still stands.

I don't see how the fact that you became good at shooting by spending a lot of time shooting is evidence for the idea that someone who doesn't spend a lot of time shooting would be good at shooting.

[lylsyly]

First Base Attack Bonus! So a fighter is better at picking up a rock and hitting a squirrel than a wizard is? Why???
All PCs get full BAB tied to your ECL not class levels.

So fighters are trained to pick up rocks and throw them at squirrels? Of course not, they are trained to use weapons. Does that include how to hit things, of course it does. A halfing bends over to pick up a stone and all the creatures flee because they know what he can do with it.

The actual point was that at our table we took out all that headache by simply giving everyone full bab tied to ECL and all good saves tied to ECL. did either of you naysayers notice that this also stops you from suprcharging a save?

None of these changes means anything to game balance and will never break your game. Just more comments from folks that believe their way is the only way. Espically Crake, he was the reason I left enworld and came here.

DONE WITH THIS THREAD

[pabelfly]

First Base Attack Bonus! So a fighter is better at picking up a rock and hitting a squirrel than a wizard is? Why???
All PCs get full BAB tied to your ECL not class levels.

Firstly, I wonder how good it would be for game balance to increase the BAB of casters without any sort of drawback. Many offensive spells can easily target the very low touch AC of opponents already, and I'm pretty wary of throwing around buffs for casters, which is also a debuff for non-casters.

Lore-wise, I'm fine with the character that spends time building their body's capability with physical activity being more coordinated and more able to hit things than the character who spends time learning how to cast spells.

There are some good ideas in your post but I'm really not sure about this suggestion.

[lylsyly]

Well, I guess I am not quite DONE WITH THIS THREAD yet.

We have been doing this at our table since 3.0! I do mean since before 3.5 hit the shelves. Once again our table is wrong because we do not play by RAW or RAI but are heaviy house ruled. God forbid that we feel it works for us.

Us being 3 that have played together since OD&D and 4 others who go all the way back to BECMI and 2E. We have no experiencce at all!

One person in another thread said something along the lines of if you play monthly or bimonthly how long does it take you to get to level 11.

We play a friday night session, 2 or 3 saturday sessions and a sunday morning session. Eat your heart out!

ability score generation is 8+1d4+1d6 rolled 8 times, round all odd scores up, drop the lowest 2 and arrange to suit. Eat your heart out!

Abilitity score level ups ala the Vow of Poverty except they happen at 4th 8th 12th 16th and 20th. Eat your heart out!

Sorcerers get their bonus feats back and their INHERENT Charisma applies not only to spells per day but to spells known as well .................

{scrubbed}

[JNAProductions]

If it works for you, that’s good.
But just because it works at your table doesn’t mean it’s good for all tables.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Re-opened, hopefully for some cooler discussion.

[eggynack]

Then regardless of classes getting a larger bonus at their level one, you go with character level not class level thereafter.

Nah, you actually get the weird first level bonuses every time. The example case, a cleric 5/fighter 2, has a fortitude save of 7.5. If you were just supposed to go off of character level, then seven levels with a good fort save would give you 5.5. Notably, this system actually gives bigger first level benefit than does standard saves, because you get a +2.5 instead of just a +2. Could theoretically pick up a +50 to a save from leveling.

[Crake]

Espically Crake, he was the reason I left enworld and came here.

For the record, I dont have an enworld account, so I dunno who you had a problem with, but it wasn’t me.

[Ualaa]

Nah, you actually get the weird first level bonuses every time. The example case, a cleric 5/fighter 2, has a fortitude save of 7.5. If you were just supposed to go off of character level, then seven levels with a good fort save would give you 5.5. Notably, this system actually gives bigger first level benefit than does standard saves, because you get a +2.5 instead of just a +2. Could theoretically pick up a +50 to a save from leveling.

You can certainly go that way if you like.

However, I'm using (and quoting from) the Unearthed 3.x book's sidebar which explicitly said you only get the increased level 1 saves at first character level, and not if you take level one in classes later than character level 1.

[eggynack]

You can certainly go that way if you like.

However, I'm using (and quoting from) the Unearthed 3.x book's sidebar which explicitly said you only get the increased level 1 saves at first character level, and not if you take level one in classes later than character level 1.
Where's that show up? I dunno that I've ever seen it.

[Quertus]

No class has a class feature that says "your BAB goes up by 1 this level". BAB in a class depends on all of the levels you have in that class before that. It's a progression.

So, for your fighter 1/wizard 19 // sorcerer 20:

At first level, your BAB is indeed +1 from the fighter.

At second level, you can choose to gain BAB progression from either side. If you choose the sorcerer side, then you have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 1. You don't have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 2, because you didn't get BAB from the sorcerer side at both levels, only at second level. So your BAB is still just +1.

At third level, you could choose to gain BAB progression from the wizard side, in which case you would have the BAB of a fighter 1/sorcerer 1/wizard 1, or still only +1. But you'd be better off taking it from the same side as you did last level, fighter 1/sorcerer 2, in which case you'd have +2.

Following along like this, the best you'd have would be:
CL BAB
1 1
2 1
3 2
4 2
5 3
6 3
7 4
8 4
9 5
10 5

etc.


For nonfractional, what Fiery Diamond intuited is what makes the most sense to me now, relative to BAB and saves : treat the two sides as if they were two separate characters of whatever class combination that side is made of, and pick whichever value of BAB/saves is higher in it's totality, and not "level by level"

A 5th level druid 4/ranger 1 //( 1each of shair/wizard/sorcerer/psion/wilder) will have BAB 4 and saves 6/3/4 on the left side, and BAB 0 and saves 0/0/10 on the right side, for a combination of BAB 4 amd saves 6/3/10

How would this logic apply to saving throws?

Say, for level 1, we went Druid 1 // Rogue 1. So 2/0/2 // 0/2/0, for 2/2/2.

Then, level 2, was Monk 1 // Rogue 2. Normally, that would be 2/2/2 // 0/1/0, for 2/2/2, or 4/4/4 total.

But, under the logic where a class doesn’t have “+X to Y” as a class feature, then instead you’d… what?

I can’t think of any answer that doesn’t break single side (ie, non-gestalt) leveling math.

Or does this technique only apply to BAB?

[Fiery Diamond]

How would this logic apply to saving throws?

Say, for level 1, we went Druid 1 // Rogue 1. So 2/0/2 // 0/2/0, for 2/2/2.

Then, level 2, was Monk 1 // Rogue 2. Normally, that would be 2/2/2 // 0/1/0, for 2/2/2, or 4/4/4 total.

But, under the logic where a class doesn’t have “+X to Y” as a class feature, then instead you’d… what?

I can’t think of any answer that doesn’t break single side (ie, non-gestalt) leveling math.

Or does this technique only apply to BAB?

Keep in mind that just using the fractional rules is easier and less cheesy, because you don't get the extra +2s for multiclassing. However, if you're insisting on not using fractionals...

Here is how I would do it. First, split the existing tables into two additive things: a full table sans the bonus 2 at first level to good saves, and a list of which saves have the bonus +2. Then, put the tables for your respective sides of the gestalt beside one another, multiclassing on the multiclassing side as you normally would. Choose whichever side has the higher value at each level to be your current save bonus. Then, add the bonus +2s on top of that. Keep in mind that we only use the highest bonuses from each side for our +2s, not all of them combined.

So, in your example, let's assume we're going full druid after Druid 1 and Monk 1, and we're going full Rogue on the other side.

(Level)Druid/Monk//Rogue BASE; Druid/Monk//Rogue BONUS +2s; Actual Total
(1)0/0/0//0/0/0; 2/0/2//0/2/0; 0/0/0+2/2/2=2/2/2
(2)0/0/0//0/1/0; 4/2/4//0/2/0; 0/1/0+4/2/4=4/3/4
(3)1/0/1//1/1/1; 4/2/4//0/2/0; 1/1/1+4/2/4=5/3/5
(4)1/1/1//1/2/1; 4/2/4//0/2/0; 1/2/1+4/2/4=5/4/5
(5)2/1/2//1/2/1; 4/2/4//0/2/0; 2/2/2+4/2/4=6/4/6

Etc.

[ciopo]

How would this logic apply to saving throws?

Say, for level 1, we went Druid 1 // Rogue 1. So 2/0/2 // 0/2/0, for 2/2/2.

Then, level 2, was Monk 1 // Rogue 2. Normally, that would be 2/2/2 // 0/1/0, for 2/2/2, or 4/4/4 total.

But, under the logic where a class doesn’t have “+X to Y” as a class feature, then instead you’d… what?

I can’t think of any answer that doesn’t break single side (ie, non-gestalt) leveling math.

Or does this technique only apply to BAB?
Because I'd compare druid1/monk1 to rogue 2, so it's "pick best of" bab and fort/refl/will. Druid1/monk1 has BAB 0 and 4/2/4 , rogue 2 has bab1 and 0/3/0 , their gestalt without fractionals has the fort and will of a druid1/monk1, and the bab and reflex of a rogue 2, so bab 1 and 4/3/4

Basically, I switched my thinking from "compare the gains of each level, take the best" to "total bab/saves separately, take the
individually highest"

What do you mean ckass features that are "+x to y"? Like swashbuckler grace? Those you simply adds at the end to whatever the result of gestalting is, because we get all class features, and they act outside the scope of "base saves"