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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Martials Rejoice! Expanded combat options, better fighting styles



Greywander
2022-08-12, 10:11 PM
This was originally going to be a thread about a sword'n'shot (i.e. melee weapon + hand crossbow) fighting style, with a few other recommended changes to bring things in line with the new fighting style. But my brain kept thinking about this until it kind expanded into a big rework of most of the martial combat system. My goals here are generally to make martial combat more fun, interesting, and active, so that martial characters are both more powerful, more fun to play, and have better teamwork strategies.

While thinking about this, I wasn't sure what features should be feats and what features should be fighting styles. Fortunately, Fighting Initiate is a feat, so I've decided to just make them all fighting styles. This means I'm actually going to be removing a bunch of feats. To wit: Crossbow Expert, Defensive Duelist, Dual Wielder, Great Weapon Master, Gunner, Heavy/Medium Armor Master, Mounted Combatant, Polearm Master, Sharpshooter, Shield Master, and Tavern Brawler. These feats are no more. In their place is a whole host of new fighting styles that grant comparable benefits.

I'll be splitting this post up according to specific loadouts (e.g. what kind of weapons you're using). Each section will generally contain a list of changes that apply to all characters, requiring no investment to benefit (beyond proficiency with the weapons and armor you're using), followed by the fighting style(s) designed for that particular loadout. Now, there will also be a lot of crossover between these. Fighting styles won't be so narrow that they only apply to one type of weapon, they'll just give the greatest benefits when using that type of weapon.

Anyway, let's get started.

Armor

Before we get into weapons, let's go ahead and get armor and the Defense fighting style out of the way. The inspiration here is obviously drawn from HAM, and skews towards making heavy armor, and thus STR, more appealing. We're not taking anything away from lightly armored DEX builds, so they're just as effective as before, if not more so, we're just adding a new benefit to heavier armor.


New Rule - Armored Defense. Wearing armor not only reduces the odds of taking a direct hit, but it also reduces the damage taken when you do. Any creature wearing armor reduces any bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage they take. Light armor reduces this damage by 1, medium armor by 2, and heavy armor by 3.

On a case-by-case basis, the DM may allow a character with some kind of unarmored AC bonus to also benefit from a similar form of damage reduction. The DM may choose to set this damage reduction to a specific number, or set it equal to that character's Constitution modifier.

This is pretty simple and straightforward. Damage reduction is always helpful, but especially against hordes of weaker enemies. Warriors in plate will have an easier time handling hordes of goblins and such without any AoE. And this is freely given to any character wearing armor. That does mean it applies to enemies, too, but most monsters don't wear armor.

What about the fighting style?


New Fighting Style - Defense. The damage reduction granted by wearing armor (or from unarmored bonuses) now applies to all damage, except psychic damage.

What can I say? The bear totem barbarian had a pretty decent idea.

Sword'n'Board

One of the issues with sword'n'board in vanilla is that by increasing your own defensive ability you actually discourage enemies from targeting you. If you're trying to build a tank who protects their allies, the system is working against you here, as enemies are encouraged to attack someone they're more likely to hit. The Protection fighting style is a nice way to balance this out, so it's a shame it's locked behind a fighting style. Let's change that.


New Rule - Shield Wall. Any creature proficient in the use of shields is able to use them to guard nearby allies. When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. You must be wielding a shield.

New Rule - Shield Cover. The bonus to AC granted by shields now also applies to Dexterity saving throws.

One of the benefits of Shield Master is now available to everyone, making shields that much more defensive. This will be important when we get to the new Protection fighting style. More importantly, shields are now better at fulfilling a tanking role by allowing you to actively protect your party members. Now enemies have to attack you, because if they don't you'll just impose disadvantage on their attacks against someone else.


New Fighting Style - Protection. You've mastered the use of a shield to deflect attacks. You gain the following benefits while wielding a shield:

When you succeed on a Dexterity saving throw against an effect where you take half damage on a successful saving throw, you may use your reaction to instead take no damage.
At the same time you use the above reaction, you can angle your shield to deflect that effect. Choose a direction and creatures in a line 5 feet wide originating from your position take only half damage from that effect on a failed saving throw, and no damage on a successful saving throw.


Now we're talking. An Evasion-like effect not only for yourself, but also for other members of your party. It does require you to pass the save first, and it does use a reaction, and it does only affect a line, and it does only affect that one effect, but that's still pretty baller. Now the decision to use a shield and pick up the Protection fighting style allows you to play a much more active role in defending your party. Just the idea that your party can hide behind your shield and allow you to entirely negate a dragon's breath weapon is really cool, and makes this a very appealing choice.

Shot'n'Shield

Of course, melee weapons aren't the only things that can be used with shields.


New Rule - Reloading Ranged Weapons. Weapons with the ammunition property no longer require a free hand to reload.

Remember when I said this post was originally going to be about a sword'n'shot fighting style? This is one of those changes that was necessary to make that possible, so that you can reload the hand crossbow while you have a weapon in your other hand. But it also immediately enables the use of a sling or hand crossbow with a shield. Which I think is fine. The biggest problem with this was the Crossbow Expert feat, allowing you to benefit from a shield and get a bonus action attack and be able to attack from range and suffer no penalty for being in melee. But Crossbow Expert doesn't exist anymore. This is basically the ranged version of sword'n'board, and has similar trade-offs compared to using a stronger bow or crossbow. And anyway, you can get basically the same result with throwing weapons, so I don't see the point in not allowing it to work with one-handed ranged weapons, too.

Two-Weapon Fighting / Twin Pistols

TWF is actually pretty strong at low levels, it just drops off at higher levels. It also suffered pretty severe niche displacement because of PAM and CE, which again, are no more. TWF is one of those things that I'm not actually sure what the best way to improve on it is. But I've got to have something, so I'll take a stab at it.


New Rule - Sword and Dagger. You can now use two-weapon fighting with any light weapon, not just melee weapons. Furthermore, only the weapon used to make the bonus action attack needs to have the light property.

Two things: First, you can now use a rapier and dagger together, as God intended. This prevents TWF from being a drain on Extra Attack by gimping your main hand attacks. Second, this also enables a "twin pistols" loadout, and since hand crossbows already have the light property (likely because they were originally intended to be used with TWF, but this was scrapped for some reason), no further change is needed to dual-wield hand crossbows. So while CE has been removed, there's still a way to get a BA attack with a hand crossbow, and it doesn't require a feat or even a fighting style. Speaking of fighting styles...


New Fighting Style - Two-Weapon Fighting. You have mastered the difficult art of fighting with two weapons. You gain the following benefits:

You can draw or sheathe any number of weapons as part of the same object interaction.
When you are hit by a melee attack, you may use your reaction to roll the damage die of a light melee weapon you are holding and add the result to your AC against that attack. If you roll the highest value on that damage die, the attack misses automatically and you may make an opportunity attack against the attacker as part of the same reaction.


Obligatory quick-draw so you can get both weapons out at the same time, but also a nice parry-and-riposte. Note that a larger damage die on the light weapon gives more of an AC bonus, but a smaller damage die has a higher chance of triggering the automatic miss and riposte. So there's actually a viable reason to use a dagger instead of a shortsword. Also note that nothing here actually requires you to use two weapons. It just benefits more if you are. That's going to be a recurring theme in this thread.

Two-Handed Weapons

We've given a lot of love to shield-users, so let's share that affection with two-handers.


New Rule - Cleave. When a melee attack reduces an undamaged creature to 0 hit points, any excess damage from that attack might carry over to another creature nearby. The attacker targets another creature within reach and, if the original attack roll can hit it, applies any remaining damage to it. If that creature was undamaged and is likewise reduced to 0 hit points, repeat this process, carrying over the remaining damage until there are no valid targets, or until the damage carried over fails to reduce an undamaged creature to 0 hit points.

New Rule - Power Attack. When make an attack with a weapon wielded in two hands with which you are proficient, you may choose to forgo adding your proficiency bonus to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you can then add twice your proficiency bonus to the damage roll.

That first one is just the optional rule for cleaving through multiple targets from the DMG. I haven't changed anything about it. Note that it's not limited to two-handed weapons, but a weapon that deals more damage will be more likely to reduce an undamaged creature to 0 HP. Power attacks are instead of the -5/+10 feature from GWM and SS, and yes, it works with ranged weapons as long as they're used with two hands (so no hand crossbows). When taken together, a power attack with a two-handed weapon becomes more likely to reduce an undamaged creature to 0 HP, and thus cleave through an additional target.

So from here, there's a bit of an issue. See, a weapon like a greatsword is very different from a weapon like a pike. I don't think they are meant to fill the same role, and I think it's more interesting to give each one their own niche. So that's what I'm going to do. Three separate fighting styles, one for each BPS damage type. This adds a flare of variety, and makes the choice between those three damage types a bit more meaningful without forcing that complexity on the players. It only matters because you chose the specific fighting style that made it matter.

Greatsword / Greataxe

Based on what I know about greatswords, where they truly excel is in fighting multiple opponents. Those wide, sweeping arcs keep enemies at bay, and, potentially, can strike down several opponents in a single blow if they're foolish enough to get in the path of your blade.


New Fighting Style - Horde Fighting. You've mastered the art of fighting against multiple opponents with a sword or axe. You gain the following benefits:

You can cleave through opponents even if they enemy being reduced to 0 hit points isn't undamaged.
When you cleave with a slashing weapon, it deals an additional 1d6 slashing damage to each additional enemy struck after the initial attack.


You'll notice nothing here requires a greatsword, or even a greataxe. The first benefit applies to any weapon, and the second benefit applies to any slashing weapon. But again, to get the most out of this fighting style you'll want to be dealing lots of damage. And the best way to do that is by power attacking with a greatsword. This is the fighting style of choice if you want to sometimes decapitate four goblins in a single blow. If your damage rolls are good. And you don't miss. Notice that cleaving now acts a bit more like the BA attack from GWM, since it triggers every time you reduce an enemy to 0 HP.

Greathammer

I'll be honest, this is one of the places where I feel like I need a little help. I have to come up with something, so here it is, but I'm open to suggestions for alternatives.

The most salient feature of blunt weapons is their heft. When you get hit, you feel it. It knocks you off your feet, and not always just figuratively. They're also ideal weapons for dealing with armored foes. So let's see what we can do with that.


New Fighting Style - Hammer Fighting. You've mastered the use of blunt weapons to knock opponents down and crack through armor. You gain the following benefits:

Bludgeoning damage you deal ignores the damage reduction given by the Armored Defense rule.
You can power attack with a weapon even if you aren't wielding it in two hands.
When you hit a creature with a power attack, you can choose to do additional damage equal to your proficiency bonus instead of twice your proficiency bonus. When you do so, you can immediately attempt to shove that creature as part of the attack.


Continuing the trend, only the first benefit specifically requires a bludgeoning weapon (not even that, just bludgeoning damage, which could be a spell!). I suppose this isn't even a greathammer fighting style, as it seems geared more toward one-handed weapons. I might actually remove the middle feature, which would then require a two-handed weapon to use the third feature.

Polearms

Before we get into weapons like pikes, let's first address some of the shorter options.


New Rule - Double-Ended Weapons. A double-ended weapon that is wielded in both hands uses the rules for two-weapon fighting, as if the weapon's other end was a separate weapon. Each weapon with the double-ended property will show how much damage it deals and what type of damage next to the double-ended property.

Spears, tridents, and quarterstaves are no longer versatile weapons. Instead, each of these weapons now has the double-ended property.
Quarterstaff, double-ended (1d6 bludgeoning)
Spear, thrown (20/60 feet), double-ended (1d4 bludgeoning)
Trident, thrown (20/60 feet), double-ended (1d6 bludgeoning)

Oh look, it's the BA attack from PAM. Just like CE, the BA attack was integrated using the TWF rules. That means the quarterstaff/spear and shield cheese is no more. But we've given shield users some nice things to make up for that loss.


New Fighting Style - Polearm Fighting. You've mastered the use of spears, pikes, and other polearms to hold a defensive position against advancing enemies. You gain the following benefits:

While wielding a piercing melee weapon, a creature you can see provokes an opportunity attack from you when it enters your reach.
You can treat a creature within your reach as if it were within 5 feet of you. For example, you can impose disadvantage on that creature's ranged attacks, and if the creature is prone your own attacks are not at disadvantage.


There's the other benefit of PAM. Though weirdly it now applies to things like rapiers and daggers. This fighting style also removes some of the penalties that came with not being within 5 feet of your target when attacking them with a reach weapon. So it nudges you toward things like pikes, but again the benefits apply more broadly.

Ranged Weapons

We've actually already covered quite a few tweaks to ranged combat:

You can reload ammunition weapons without a free hand.
You can use ranged weapons with TWF. This is instead of the CE BA attack.
You can power attack with ranged weapons. This is instead of the SS -5/+10.

We'll address shooting from melee when we cover sword'n'shot, so all that leaves us with is ignoring cover and extending range. I suppose there's also ignoring the loading property, which I haven't managed to fit in anywhere, but it might actually be more interesting not to negate it. In which case, a twin pistols build on someone with Extra Attack will probably use a sling for your main weapon and hand crossbow for the off-hand. Or you could take advantage of the TWF style's quickdraw to draw a loaded hand crossbow with each attack and sheathe it afterwards. Six men with guns? More like one guy with six guns.

Anyway, back on topic.


New Fighting Style - Sharpshooter. Your skill with ranged weapons is legendary, with unparalleled accuracy and even the ability to curve your shots slightly. You gain the following benefits:

Your range with all ranged weapons is doubled.
You can treat a target with half cover as having no cover, and three-quarters cover as half cover.
If there is a space within 5 feet of a creature behind full cover that you could shoot to, and there isn't full cover between that space and the creature, you can treat that creature as having three-quarters cover.
You can cleave with ranged attacks, but each target you cleave through must be along a line 5 feet wide originating from you and passing through the space of your original target.


Some of these features are weaker than Sharpshooter, and some stronger. Double range means you can only shoot a longbow at 300 feet without penalty, but you can shoot at up to 1200 feet with a penalty. Cover is only downgraded one step, instead of being completely ignored, but you can even shoot creatures at the edge of full cover. Finally, being able to pierce through multiple enemies should be fun. It at least makes power attacking weak enemies less of a waste.

Thrown Weapons

I'll be honest, I'm running out of steam, and don't really have a plan here, but I feel compelled to include something. Let's see what we can do real quick to make throwing weapons better.


New Rule - Draw and Throw. When you make a ranged attack with a weapon with the thrown property, you can draw that weapon as part of the attack.

This solves the biggest issue throwing weapons had. After all, you can somehow pull out multiple arrows, so why not do the same for darts and javelins? But where to go from here? I suppose we can look at how throwing weapons are often used in movies and such. And often they're used as distractions or to pin someone momentarily.


New Fighting Style - Throwing Fighter. You've practiced throwing weapons so much that your speed and accuracy are unparalleled. You gain the following benefits:

You can throw any weapon without penalty. For you, any weapon you are proficient with has the thrown property with a range of 20/60 feet.
Your range with weapons that already have the thrown property is doubled.
When you throw a weapon that deals piercing damage, you can choose to pin that enemy instead of harming them. If you succeed on your attack roll, you deal no damage, and instead reduce that creature's speed to 0 until it uses an action to pull itself free.
When you throw a weapon that deals slashing or bludgeoning damage, you can attempt to distract that creature. On a hit, the attack deals half the normal damage, and if the damage rolled is higher than that creature's Wisdom score, it has disadvantage on its next attack.


Okay, good enough I suppose. We're nearly done, and I am very much looking forward to doing something else. If you have suggestions for something better, I'm open to them.

Unarmed

This is the last one before we get to sword'n'shot. We have to take care not to step on the monk's toes too much. At the same time, it would be nice if this also provided a benefit to monks.


New Rule - One Two Punch. If you have at least one empty hand, you can use the two-weapon fighting rules to make an unarmed strike as a bonus action. As per the rules for two-weapon fighting, this does not add your ability modifier to the damage roll, and two-weapon fighting can't be used with weapons wielded in two hands.

New Fighting Style - Brawler. You don't need a weapon because you are one. You can kill someone with a pencil. You gain the following benefits:

You are proficient with improvised weapons.
Your unarmed strikes and improvised weapons deal 1d6 damage.
After you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or improvised weapon, you can grapple or shove that creature as a bonus action.
You can use Constitution instead of Strength for ability checks made to grapple or shove.


I'm not completely happy with this, but it'll do for now. I might come back and tweak it later, and I'm also open to suggestions.

CON grappling is mostly for DEX builds, since lots of people dump STR but no one dumps CON. No one maxes CON, either, but no one dumps it. So it makes you not terrible but not amazing as a grappler.

Sword'n'Shot

Alright, it's the thing that originally spawned this thread. To make this particular loadout functional, we had to make a few tweaks to the existing rules before even getting to fighting styles. First, we needed to get rid of Crossbow Expert, as it rendered a sword'n'shot style of fighting entirely moot. Second, we needed to allow one-handed reloads. No, it doesn't make a lot of sense, but yes, we needed it to make this work mechanically. Finally, we needed ranged weapons to work with TWF. Now that the groundwork has been laid, let's get right into the fighting style.


New Fighting Style - Skirmisher. You've trained in fighting in close quarters with both melee and ranged weapons. You gain the following benefits:

While you are wielding a melee weapon, being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.
When a creature you can see ends their turn within 30 feet of you but more than 5 feet from you, they provoke an opportunity attack from you.


So now we can shoot from melee with no penalty, but it requires us to be using a melee weapon. This means that it isn't compatible with shot'n'shield or twin pistols builds. What it is compatible with is spellcasting, particularly since one of the more common spell foci (the staff) happens to also be a melee weapon. This isn't just about using ranged attacks from melee, sword'n'shot is a type of TWF build, and this allows us to still make that TWF bonus action attack with no penalty while in melee. You could also grab a light melee weapon and use the hand crossbow for your main attacks, and the melee weapon for the BA attack. Or for the parry-and-riposte feature of the two-weapon fighting style, if you get both fighting styles.

Now about that opportunity attack. It won't be as common as you might think, since it only triggers on ending their turn in the sweet spot. They can move through that area without triggering it as long as they don't stop there. They can also close to melee range to avoid it, and in fact are encouraged to do so. So you can consider this another type of tanking fighting style. Note that the OA doesn't require a melee weapon, so any ranged weapon user can make use of it. Of course, you'll find that difficult if an enemy closes to melee range with you and you aren't holding a melee weapon. Oddly, it can also be used with reach weapons, though the sweet spot is much narrower. Finally, it can also be used with spells, though it requires Warcaster to replace the OA with a spell.

I am so glad that's over. Please feel free to offer your criticisms and suggestions. I know there's a lot here that can be improved.

Also I just realized I completely forgot about mounted combat. I'm too tired to handle that now, so you can either pretend I didn't say I was removing Mounted Combatant, or you can give me some suggestions and I'll add it in later.

Yakk
2022-08-13, 02:49 PM
* I don't see a way to add your attribute to your off-hand weapon.

* I don't see a way to attack with the butt of a polearm, ala PAM.

* It looks like dual short swords is universally suboptional.

* Armor rules will require tweaking non-humanoid monsters, or a lot of mechanics (like hammer) will whither on the vine. I'd remove the interaction with AD myself; one less thing to worry about. (A flat +2 damage, or even +con damage, would be roughly equivalent).

* You have a bunch of rules that would be simpler if you talked about "offering cover for" (ie, is between the target and the source). Like the arrow cleaving and the shield abilities.

* A lot of your styles is finicky stuff, not "I do X better". While that is fun, it means that many of them are going to end up being worse than the boring +2 to hit or +2 damage baseline ones.

Greywander
2022-08-13, 04:24 PM
* I don't see a way to add your attribute to your off-hand weapon.
There isn't. A slight damage bump seemed like one of the least interesting ways to improve TWF. Instead, the fighting style improves your defenses and sometimes let's you make an OA. I think it strikes a nice balance between offense and defense.

I might be able to be talked into making offhand attacks work exactly like main hand attacks, adding your ability mod to the damage like normal. It does seem like a weird exception, but a change like that would have a pretty big impact on the balance of different loadouts. I know we buffed shield users quite a bit, and two-handers can now power attack without a feat, so perhaps this change wouldn't be out of line with other loadouts.


* I don't see a way to attack with the butt of a polearm, ala PAM.
It was a deliberate decision to get rid of the BA attack from both PAM and CE, as I felt they severely diminished the value of TWF. I did bring both back, but they're now part of the TWF rules. In the case of polearms, staves, spears, and tridents have had their versatile property replaced with a new double-ended property that treats the weapon's other end like a light weapon that can be used with TWF.

I might end up needing to rewrite the weapon list anyway, in which case I can look into adding more double-ended weapons. Perhaps some weapons would give you the choice to use them as a two-handed weapon or a double-ended weapon, but you couldn't do both at the same time.


* It looks like dual short swords is universally suboptional.
Some weapons are just weaker than others. Clubs are weaker than quarterstaves, darts are weaker than javelins, two-handing a longsword is weaker than a greatsword. Dual daggers has always been suboptimal. I guess I don't understand why dual shortswords is special when there have always been examples of this.


* Armor rules will require tweaking non-humanoid monsters, or a lot of mechanics (like hammer) will whither on the vine. I'd remove the interaction with AD myself; one less thing to worry about. (A flat +2 damage, or even +con damage, would be roughly equivalent).
Very true. Things like this work best if the system is designed with it in mind in the first place; adding them after the fact can be a nightmare. A band-aid solution might be a quick rule of thumb that creatures with natural armor (shown on the stat block) get DR according to their size: 1 for medium and smaller, 2 for large and huge, and 3 for gargantuan.

But +CON mod to damage also sounds interesting. Blunt weapons are often heavy, requiring a lot of strength to use. But no weapon intended for practical use is ever that heavy, so while strength is important, endurance is perhaps the more important factor. Most people are strong enough to swing a mace, but most people will also get tired out pretty quick. So it makes sense to link bludgeoning weapons to CON somehow. Not sure a damage boost is the right fit, but it would fit the aesthetic of heavier blunt weapons hitting harder.


* You have a bunch of rules that would be simpler if you talked about "offering cover for" (ie, is between the target and the source). Like the arrow cleaving and the shield abilities.
Cover adds to DEX saves, but it won't turn a save for half damage effect into save for no damage effect. Either you grant full cover and negate the effect entirely, or you grant partial cover that only makes it slightly more likely for them to take half damage. Giving an Evasion-like effect to your allies is both more interesting and more powerful. I think it does a better job of letting a player play out that particular fantasy.

Not sure how cover figures in to arrow cleaving. Do you mean to allow the arrow to cleave through creatures using the original target as cover?


* A lot of your styles is finicky stuff, not "I do X better". While that is fun, it means that many of them are going to end up being worse than the boring +2 to hit or +2 damage baseline ones.
This kind of comes back to the discussion of magic items. Would you rather have a sword +1, or an Immovable Rod? Would you rather have armor +1, or a Decanter of Endless Water? Would you rather have a shield +1, or Slippers of Spider Climbing? A passive stat buff is boring, but effective. Sometimes too effective. If the player amasses too many stat buffs, the game becomes too easy. So I think these more interesting but more situational abilities will be more fun, and if used creatively they can get you an even bigger advantage than the passive stat buff. A lot of these still make the player generally stronger, but the bonuses aren't all as universal as something like the Archery or Dueling styles were.

Yakk
2022-08-13, 05:02 PM
There isn't. A slight damage bump seemed like one of the least interesting ways to improve TWF. Instead, the fighting style improves your defenses and sometimes let's you make an OA. I think it strikes a nice balance between offense and defense.
The goal is simplicitly, honestly. It is also why I want dual short swords to be at least a local optima.

Make X attacks with the same result is fundamentally faster than making X + Y attacks with different rules attached.


It was a deliberate decision to get rid of the BA attack from both PAM and CE, as I felt they severely diminished the value of TWF. I did bring both back, but they're now part of the TWF rules. In the case of polearms, staves, spears, and tridents have had their versatile property replaced with a new double-ended property that treats the weapon's other end like a light weapon that can be used with TWF.
Sure, but you only mentioned spears, tridents and quarterstaffs, not polearms, in the butt-end weapons.


Some weapons are just weaker than others. Clubs are weaker than quarterstaves, darts are weaker than javelins, two-handing a longsword is weaker than a greatsword. Dual daggers has always been suboptimal. I guess I don't understand why dual shortswords is special when there have always been examples of this.
Dual daggers gave you some nice throwing options as a Rogue, especially with the item interaction. And the 1d4 had reduced importance with sneak attack carrying most of the weight.

Dual shortswords is about uniform attacks.


But +CON mod to damage also sounds interesting. Blunt weapons are often heavy, requiring a lot of strength to use. But no weapon intended for practical use is ever that heavy, so while strength is important, endurance is perhaps the more important factor. Most people are strong enough to swing a mace, but most people will also get tired out pretty quick. So it makes sense to link bludgeoning weapons to CON somehow. Not sure a damage boost is the right fit, but it would fit the aesthetic of heavier blunt weapons hitting harder.
Yes, and it has a history from 4e.

The bonus is going to be about the same (+2ish) for most builds, and provides a slight extra reward for going heavier con.


Cover adds to DEX saves, but it won't turn a save for half damage effect into save for no damage effect. Either you grant full cover and negate the effect entirely, or you grant partial cover that only makes it slightly more likely for them to take half damage. Giving an Evasion-like effect to your allies is both more interesting and more powerful. I think it does a better job of letting a player play out that particular fantasy.

Not sure how cover figures in to arrow cleaving. Do you mean to allow the arrow to cleave through creatures using the original target as cover?
You have a bunch of complex rules about who you provide bonuses to for shields and for arrow-cleave.

Try replacing them with "X offers cover to Y". Like, your shield thing? Gives a benefit to creatures you offer cover to (from the effect), even if not even 3/4 cover. Ditto for the arrow cleave -- you can cleave into targets that all previously hit creatures offer cover to.


This kind of comes back to the discussion of magic items. Would you rather have a sword +1, or an Immovable Rod? Would you rather have armor +1, or a Decanter of Endless Water? Would you rather have a shield +1, or Slippers of Spider Climbing? A passive stat buff is boring, but effective. Sometimes too effective. If the player amasses too many stat buffs, the game becomes too easy. So I think these more interesting but more situational abilities will be more fun, and if used creatively they can get you an even bigger advantage than the passive stat buff. A lot of these still make the player generally stronger, but the bonuses aren't all as universal as something like the Archery or Dueling styles were.
Sure. But you should be careful your fancy styles aren't a bunch of ribbons that don't amount to much. Nor that they dominate the boring ones by a huge amount.

Much of your styles are a bit ribbon-filled.

Like this:

* Your range with all ranged weapons is doubled.
Useful for some items, mostly a ribbon with others. Longbow range is already ridiculous.

* You can treat a target with half cover as having no cover, and three-quarters cover as half cover.

Basically way worse than +2 to hit.

* If there is a space within 5 feet of a creature behind full cover that you could shoot to, and there isn't full cover between that space and the creature, you can treat that creature as having three-quarters cover.

Honestly, ridiculously complex. And sort of niche. Most of the time, a readied action when there are no good targets will be almost as good anyhow.

* You can cleave with ranged attacks, but each target you cleave through must be along a line 5 feet wide originating from you and passing through the space of your original target.

Honestly, a ribbon.

So you have a bunch of mechanical things that don't really add up to much.

Meanwhile, with built-in power attack, +2 to hit (archery style) makes your longbow deal 1d8+7 damage, a 50% damage boost, at no accuracy loss (-2/+4 power attack, offset by +2 to hit becomes +4 to damage).

What are the odds that the above add up to a 50% boost in effectiveness?

Mjolnirbear
2022-08-15, 04:55 PM
The goal is simplicitly, honestly. It is also why I want dual short swords to be at least a local optima.



Dual shortswords is about uniform attacks.

I don't know what you mean by these. You want short swords to be the optimal choice? Im not sure dual shortswords is functionally different than dual dagger or dual tonfa or even dual fans.



.

Like this:

* Your range with all ranged weapons is doubled.
Useful for some items, mostly a ribbon with others. Longbow range is already ridiculous.

* You can treat a target with half cover as having no cover, and three-quarters cover as half cover.

Basically way worse than +2 to hit.

Is it?

By reusing a known mechanic he's reducing complexity. Not a huge amount, granted, but it does. More importantly I think I'd be easier to play: simply deciding which cover applies, versus additional maths.

No doubt that would be up to preference though.



* If there is a space within 5 feet of a creature behind full cover that you could shoot to, and there isn't full cover between that space and the creature, you can treat that creature as having three-quarters cover.

Honestly, ridiculously complex. And sort of niche. Most of the time, a readied action when there are no good targets will be almost as good anyhow.

* You can cleave with ranged attacks, but each target you cleave through must be along a line 5 feet wide originating from you and passing through the space of your original target.

Honestly, a ribbon.

So you have a bunch of mechanical things that don't really add up to much.

Meanwhile, with built-in power attack, +2 to hit (archery style) makes your longbow deal 1d8+7 damage, a 50% damage boost, at no accuracy loss (-2/+4 power attack, offset by +2 to hit becomes +4 to damage).

What are the odds that the above add up to a 50% boost in effectiveness?

Honestly I agree some are far too complex or convoluted, but *in general* I find most of his ideas quite useful. Put the weapon feats into the weapons, and no longer need to feel obligated to choose the feat taxes. Feat usage becomes less an obvious choice and more about options.

Greywander
2022-08-15, 06:48 PM
The goal is simplicitly, honestly. It is also why I want dual short swords to be at least a local optima.
I'm considering the idea of having a TWF proficiency (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?648786-Should-TWF-be-a-proficiency) instead of reducing the damage of off hand attacks. Without proficiency, the off hand attack still does full damage, but you don't add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll. Doing it this way makes more sense to me, since the idea of not adding your proficiency bonus to a d20 roll is already a concept that exists in the game, whereas not adding your modifier to a damage roll with a weapon is unique to TWF. Sure, spells often don't add modifiers, but spells are exceptions by nature; each and every spell is an exception to the general rules.

If we added TWF as a type of weapon proficiency, I'd probably give it to fighters, rangers, and rogues, but I'm not sure about any other classes. I'm also not sure what other methods of getting TWF proficiency might exist. Some races, like elves, might get it. Anything that gives you a free pick weapon proficiency could take it. Maybe some martial subclasses could get it. Mutliclassing is always an option. In the end, it might be easier to nix the idea of TWF proficiency and roll back the rule that prevents adding your ability mod to the damage roll of the off hand attack.

As for dual shortswords, here's an option that might work for everyone. What if we add a new weapon property to the game, maybe call it "balanced". Any 1d4 light weapon stays a light weapon, and any 1d6 light weapon swaps light for balanced. Then we say that you can use TWF with either a normal weapon and a light weapon, or with two balanced weapons. So rapier + dagger is one optimal TWF loadout, and shortsword + shortsword is another optimal TWF loadout. If I need to redo the weapon list anyway, I could do something like this.


Sure, but you only mentioned spears, tridents and quarterstaffs, not polearms, in the butt-end weapons.
Did it ever make sense to swing a 10 foot glaive around and hit someone with the butt end? I'm amenable to designing new weapons to make use of the double-ended property, but the basic design principles for such weapons should be to treat them like a matching set of TWF weapons. This means that, as per above, the head should do 1d8 or less damage and the butt 1d4 damage, or both head and butt do 1d6 or less. If you add reach to the mix, you're probably looking at a damage downgrade, e.g. 1d6 on the head, 1d4 on the butt. None of the existing reach polearms have this design, so I don't think they're suitable for having the double-ended property. That said, having the option to wield some weapons as either a two-handed weapon or as a double-ended weapon could be a way to bring these together.


Dual daggers gave you some nice throwing options as a Rogue, especially with the item interaction. And the 1d4 had reduced importance with sneak attack carrying most of the weight.

Dual shortswords is about uniform attacks.
I mean, couldn't you just play a monk? The Martial Arts die would eventually scale to make shortswords as strong as rapiers, so dual short swords would become optimal. Honestly, while I don't like deliberately using a less optimal option if there's no benefit as a trade-off, the loss of damage here is pretty minor, so I say use what you want. The magic weapons you have available will also be the major deciding factor of what the optimal weapon to use is; a shortsword +1 is stronger than a rapier. Implementing balanced weapons that can be used with TWF together, but not with a regular weapon, should also go a long way to making dual shortswords less suboptimal, though I think rapier + dagger still edges it out if you have Extra Attack.


Yes, and it has a history from 4e.

The bonus is going to be about the same (+2ish) for most builds, and provides a slight extra reward for going heavier con.
Yeah, it seems like one of those things that doesn't really make a lot of sense for why that specific stat would provide that specific bonus, but the fact is that it's super simple and easy to implement, and fits the associated archetype, even if it doesn't make sense why it works that way.

Heck, DEX is kind of this way already. It makes zero sense that the same ability that helps you paint Warhammer minis also helps you do gymnastics, it's just that character archetypes in fiction that are good at one happens to often be good at the other as well. I've looked into separating these two aspects of DEX, and it usually becomes more trouble than it's worth.


You have a bunch of complex rules about who you provide bonuses to for shields and for arrow-cleave.

Try replacing them with "X offers cover to Y". Like, your shield thing? Gives a benefit to creatures you offer cover to (from the effect), even if not even 3/4 cover. Ditto for the arrow cleave -- you can cleave into targets that all previously hit creatures offer cover to.
Yeah, I could see that being simpler. The advantage of the shield thing is that you get to aim it, so you have more control over which creatures are protected, and which aren't. This is especially important because it means smart placement of the AoE can't bypass your ability to deflect it from your party. Not much use in hiding behind the paladin when the enemy mage can just make the Fireball originate from behind the paladin. Then again, perhaps that could be an intentionally benefit of using Fireball instead of something like Cone of Cold.

For the arrow cleaving, I think it makes the most sense for each subsequent target you cleave through to have had cover from the previous target. This gets rid of some of anomalies, such as targeting a gargantuan creature and then cleaving through to everyone behind it. You can still cause the arrow to curve if you cleave through a larger creature later down the line, but arrow-curving is already part of the fighting style, and the curving will be much less intense than hitting everything behind a gargantuan creature. Also, you're probably not going to cleave through a lot of targets in a single shot, especially big ones (who tend to have more HP).


* Your range with all ranged weapons is doubled.
Useful for some items, mostly a ribbon with others. Longbow range is already ridiculous.
With ranged cleaving, I think it does make sense to revert to removing the penalty for long ranged shots. Because what happens if you shoot someone at close range and cleave through to someone at long range? I guess we could apply a -5 to the attack roll, which is how disadvantage is applied to passive ability checks. But it's easier just to remove the source of disadvantage entirely.


* You can treat a target with half cover as having no cover, and three-quarters cover as half cover.

Basically way worse than +2 to hit.
Only for targets not in cover. Half cover provides a +2 to AC, so ignoring half cover is equivalent to +2 to the attack roll. Three-quarters cover is +5 AC, so downgrading it to half cover is like +3 to the attack.

You also have to take the fighting style in its entirety. All Archery does is +2 to attack rolls. This extends your range, allows ranged cleaving, reduces the effectiveness of cover, and even lets you hit things at the edge of full cover. Given that your own front line will often be giving cover to the enemy, it's a pretty safe bet that half cover at least will come up pretty often.


* If there is a space within 5 feet of a creature behind full cover that you could shoot to, and there isn't full cover between that space and the creature, you can treat that creature as having three-quarters cover.

Honestly, ridiculously complex. And sort of niche. Most of the time, a readied action when there are no good targets will be almost as good anyhow.
Yeah, I think I got carried away trying to insure there wasn't a weird loophole that e.g. would allow people to shoot through walls (since the other side of the wall is within 5 feet). It would probably work better if I just said plainly what I wanted it to do: a target behind full cover but at the edge of that cover only benefits from three-quarters cover. Perhaps a better way to state it is that if there's any space within 5 feet that the target could move to where it wouldn't have full cover, then you can curve your shot to hit them. So I think there's a better way to word the feature. It's not really a complex idea, it only gets complex when you expect the rule to be interpreted legalistically to allow shooting through walls.


* You can cleave with ranged attacks, but each target you cleave through must be along a line 5 feet wide originating from you and passing through the space of your original target.

Honestly, a ribbon.
Don't forget you can power attack with bows and crossbows, so long as they're wielded in two hands. Being able to skewer two or three goblins with a single arrow isn't exactly a ribbon.


What are the odds that the above add up to a 50% boost in effectiveness?
Pretty good, actually. The difference is that it's not just free extra damage. Against a high HP target standing out in the open at close range, you won't notice any difference. Any time you need to shoot from long range, or the target is behind cover, or you can cleave through a lower HP target, you'll see a big difference. If you're up against a horde of goblins, for example, then a power attack is basically a guarantied cleave. The first goblin you hit is just dead, as even at 1st level with 16 DEX and +2 proficiency you're already doing 7 damage, plus the die roll. Without cleaving, any extra damage is just wasted, and on a good damage roll you could even take out a second goblin and cleave to a third. As your DEX and proficiency increase, that only goes up. With 20 DEX and +6 proficiency, a power attack is doing 17 damage, plus the die roll. That's a guarantied cleave through at least three gobbos, maybe four depending on the damage roll.

Now, will such situations be frequent? Probably not. But that's just the cleaving. The extended range will be a great help against other ranged enemies, and against flying enemies. Removing disadvantage from your attack is a big damage boost, much bigger than +2 to the attack roll. Any time you're dealing with cover, it's as good or better than the Archery style. What I'm trying to say is that it should be somewhat uncommon that none of the bonuses from the fighting style can be applied, and as long as you're using at least one, you're getting a substantial damage boost.


I'll work on organizing what I have here into a Google Doc, and making some tweaks and improvements. In general, it seems like some of these are a bit too complex, so I'll see what I can do to clean them up. I should be able to find a way to create a similar result at greatly reduced complexity.

Yakk
2022-08-16, 08:12 AM
Sure, there is a damage boost.

Except the +2 archery style is adding +50% almost always, day in day out.

And when one of your features applies, it ... well, competes with that. Except all of your features stacked together don't help as often as the raw +2 to hit does.

Mjolnirbear
2022-08-16, 09:14 AM
I was personally working on something like this and I rather like your implementation.

The only idea of mine that I think has a place here is 'cleaving' with thrown weapons, where basically you threw multiple knives/axes/whatever.

In my initial idea you could cleave once per turn as a special attack action, and affect as many targets as your PB. So it starts low but scales with level. It required power attacking and either a thrown weapon or a weapon weilded in two hands.

I had caster options with the staff (increased range) and dagger (sacrifice HP for material components).

I do rather like the way you've done it, though. I'll likely be skimming this thread for ideas for a while ;)

Greywander
2022-08-16, 02:03 PM
Sure, there is a damage boost.

Except the +2 archery style is adding +50% almost always, day in day out.

And when one of your features applies, it ... well, competes with that. Except all of your features stacked together don't help as often as the raw +2 to hit does.
This might be something we have to agree to disagree on. I think a situational bonus that requires you to exploit opportunities when they arise or manufacture the right circumstances is both more interesting and fun and better game design than an always on bonus that requires no thought or strategy. I also think the proposed Sharpshooter style will be noticeably stronger than the Archery style when you're able to use its bonuses. It was always meant to be a trade-off that is sometimes better and sometimes worse, but if you're a skilled player you can make it better more often and worse less often.

I also think this design philosophy works better for bonus stacking. Stacking always on bonuses just makes your character stronger all the time, and being too strong can make the game less fun. Stacking situational bonuses generally makes it more likely to always be getting some benefit, but it isn't always the same bonus so you still have to adapt your tactics to the bonuses you are getting at that moment. It's only when the stars align that you'll get to stack a lot of bonuses at once, giving you a brief moment of being awesome that probably won't happen again. The brief moment of being overpowered feels special because it's so rare, instead of being your default state.


The only idea of mine that I think has a place here is 'cleaving' with thrown weapons, where basically you threw multiple knives/axes/whatever.
Huh, I guess I thought they already could since they were melee weapons, but cleaving requires a melee attack. The thrown style is one I didn't put a lot of thought into, so a rework was pretty much expected. Maybe it could let you bounce a thrown weapon to hit multiple targets, as an alternative to cleaving?


I had caster options with the staff (increased range) and dagger (sacrifice HP for material components).
There's actually an optional rule, in WGtE, I think, were using a two-handed spell focus increases cantrip range by 50%. I do like the idea of a "mage rifle" that allows long range spell sniping.

It might actually make sense to give everyone a free fighting style at a certain level. It would be helpful for martial classes that don't already get one, and if caster fighting styles are a thing then it can add a tactical flare to casters, too.

Yakk
2022-08-16, 07:28 PM
This might be something we have to agree to disagree on. I think a situational bonus that requires you to exploit opportunities when they arise or manufacture the right circumstances is both more interesting and fun and better game design than an always on bonus that requires no thought or strategy. I also think the proposed Sharpshooter style will be noticeably stronger than the Archery style when you're able to use its bonuses. It was always meant to be a trade-off that is sometimes better and sometimes worse, but if you're a skilled player you can make it better more often and worse less often.
Oh, are you banning archery style?

My point is that in your near ideal situation (the target has 3/4 cover, say)... you get +3 to hit. And that is a situation your archer should try to avoid as best they can, as it makes them worse.

Meanwhile, archery is getting +2 to hit, day in day out.

If you are banning archery style, your style might be the best option.

If you aren't, it looks like a trap option -- a choice that looks interesting, but makes the character worse.

The situational one might be better game design, but (a) I think you have too many fiddly bits (the player is likely to forget all of the details), and (b) it doesn't make the choice a good one.

Archery was one of the best styles out there.

Greywander
2022-08-16, 08:03 PM
Oh, are you banning archery style?
[...]
If you are banning archery style, your style might be the best option.
Ah, that makes more sense. Yeah, the intention from the beginning was to replace all existing fighting styles with all new ones, which is why some of them have the same name as the style they're replacing. So Archery is replaced by Sharpshooter, and so on.

I still think my new fighting styles will be generally stronger than the old fighting styles, they're just more situational now so the benefit at any given time might be more or less. If I find that's not the case after doing some playtesting, then I can tweak things accordingly. It's not just the fighting styles, but also some of the other general changes. For example, the ranged cleaving becomes a lot more useful when everyone has access to power attacks.

So really, you should be comparing pure vanilla (Archery style + Sharpshooter feat) to my entire collection of tweaks (power attack + Sharpshooter style + not needing to spend a feat). I'm curious how that changes your perspective. Would you rather have Archery, or do you just think it's more optimal? What I'm hoping is that the new styles will be more fun and exciting to use; a lot of the vanilla styles are kind of boring.


The situational one might be better game design, but (a) I think you have too many fiddly bits (the player is likely to forget all of the details), and (b) it doesn't make the choice a good one.
Yeah, I haven't had a chance to do any tweaking yet, but rest assured, I will be looking into improving these, whether that's rewriting part or all of them, or just streamlining the existing idea.

Mjolnirbear
2022-08-16, 10:13 PM
.


Huh, I guess I thought they already could since they were melee weapons, but cleaving requires a melee attack. The thrown style is one I didn't put a lot of thought into, so a rework was pretty much expected. Maybe it could let you bounce a thrown weapon to hit multiple targets, as an alternative to cleaving?


There's actually an optional rule, in WGtE, I think, were using a two-handed spell focus increases cantrip range by 50%. I do like the idea of a "mage rifle" that allows long range spell sniping.

It might actually make sense to give everyone a free fighting style at a certain level. It would be helpful for martial classes that don't already get one, and if caster fighting styles are a thing then it can add a tactical flare to casters, too.

Yes it was an Eberron trick. Mine wasn't a fighting style though. My toss-it-at-the-wall stage was thinking martial exploits, like invocations, that you could purchase so you have a repertoire of dirty tricks for your favourite weapons. Some were general (weapons that deal slashing damage) or specifics (grapple at range with whip, a useful net skill, etc). Then that evolved into basically weapon properties, so it was simply something you could do if you were wielding that weapon. At some point I figured some weapons could be useful to casters too, and came up with that.

Now I'm leaning towards simply copying yours ;)