Playing as a... Mount?

[Condé]

TLDR; Want to play a character focusing on its mount. Like almost not even playing the character or just to buff it/use the aid action or something like that?

I know the ubermount but it requires often playing a paladin or stacking multiple PrC and it makes sense for a theorical build but not really from a roleplay perspective if you know what I mean.

EDIT: I do not want to play as a monster. My DM, this time, will not let me play an animal either. I'm looking for a way to have a cool mount and build something around it, while still having a character mounted on top of it. (Or not but the thing is to focus on the mount, not the owner.)


------

Warning: The title might be misleading.

I like the idea of playing a monster. But not all DM's accept that and I can understand why. But strangely enough, they are often okay with the fact you can have really weird things at your service. Or becoming one yourself... I mean...

You have a freaking bear as an animal companion? No problem.
You mean your paladin's mount is a unicorn? Sure.
Your familiar is an imp? Sounds cool.
What do you mean you can take the form of a will'o-wisp AND have its magic immunity, 1 trillon kilometers feet speed per milisecond with perfect maneuvrability, can still use all your spells while being this aberration AND have a gorilla named Zebulon at your command? Yes it is perfectly acceptable to me.

I played a druid recently (I guess you can tell by now) with pretty ridicule feats, spells and all. I love the idea of shapechanging, wildshape and stuff. BUT I was really fed up with all the management it was asking. You have spells, AND multiple character sheets for all your shapes AND the character sheet for your animal companion. Each time you level up you have to keep everything up to date otherwise... You are penalizing yourself. Oh and my druid was always spamming summons so... Even more actions per turn.

What I don't like with all that is... My turns took way longer than the others. I'm not a big fan of allowing Leadership and all, not because of the power that it gives you but because it ask the player to play TWO characters and sometimes, it takes extra time and you know how fights can get slow sometimes.


WHAT I'M TRYING TO ACHIEVE:

Because there is no real early all-day-everyday-become-a-monster class feature (Except, maybe, the totem druid but it is from a Dragon Magazine AND the Shifting Druid from PHB2 but it is more "Pretend you are an animal" more than anything else and it's not fun, and it's lame because you really can't have nice things) I was wondering... Is it possible to have an animal companion and... Make a fusion? Or play as the mount?

I remember seing a build in Pathfinder where you played a goblin on a weasel and bascially the goblin was just there to help the weasel dealing damage. The animal companion was the star of the show. I liked the concept a lot.

My problem is with most class giving an AC (Animal Companion) is... It is often just a way to setup your spirited charge and that's pretty much it. Or you are trying to combine a lot of Prestige Classes in order to have an "Ubermount" but that's not really what I'm looking for.

You see, there is a spell: When Two Become One from Oriental Adventures. The concept is neat but it is crippled by the fact its duration is really short AND you can only do it with a horse with a class who doesn't have ride as a class skill and very little reason to have a horse to begin with... And to use this spell. Because it is not good.

I also like the Zhentarim Skymage... Because the entry is straight up just wizard, or Sorcerer is you want to wait one more level I guess, but have better cha synergy, AND BECAUSE YOU CAN HAVE WHATEVER YOU WANT AS A MOUNT. (As long as it has a fly speed obviously)

And my rotten brain thinked about something really... Stupid. I guess.
What if you had a mount with Swallow Whole? Just be immune or resistant to the acid damage of the ability and stay in there, buffing your mount, being untargetable and talk to other members of your party while inside your mount with its mouth open to make the sound less muffled;
But I don't think it is possible since Swallow Whole often deal really good damages AND from two different types. (Often bludgeoning + something like acid or whatever)
So yeah you would be untargetable but probably dead too so it is not ideal.

I like the beast heart adept too but the main issue is you would not have only one mount but an army of goons and that is what I'm trying to avoid.

Bonus point if you can point me to something without spellcasting. But it doesn't really matter since I would be focusing on buffing the mount and nothing else.

So yeah go crazy.

Ps: I have read the Mount Handbook.

[Malphegor]

My goto for ‘playing a creature that others can ride’ is one of the lower LA dragons (advancing by HD rather than character level to get the size increases after a discussion with the dm to only apply LA to the wyrmling stage as it quickly gets complicated levelling otherwise)…

Or an idea I had once to play an Equiceph (horse headed humanoid race) who’s a tauric creature (savage species template, in this case we take horse to have horse lower legs), resulting in you havibg the appearence of a centaur with a horse’s head: so you’re basically a horse with a neck that’s too long and arms coming out of the neck.

Or just a centaur given they’re large.

[pabelfly]

The first and easiest question to ask is... will your DM let you play as an animal character? You mightn't even have to go to the trouble creating a mounted character build if you can do this. And if they do let you play as an animal, will they run it with the same LA as their monster entry, or will they adjust it for you, since monsters are generally overpriced in terms of LA.

If you want to go with a mount without spellcasting, I'd check out the Wild Cohort feat, which was an online feat (http://web.archive.org/web/20150910144345/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fre%2F20031118a).

[Particle_Man]

The dragon idea would also allow your rider to take the dragon rider prestige class, which among other things increases the dragon’s flight maneuverability.

[Condé]

My goto for ‘playing a creature that others can ride’ is one of the lower LA dragons (advancing by HD rather than character level to get the size increases after a discussion with the dm to only apply LA to the wyrmling stage as it quickly gets complicated levelling otherwise)…

Or an idea I had once to play an Equiceph (horse headed humanoid race) who’s a tauric creature (savage species template, in this case we take horse to have horse lower legs), resulting in you havibg the appearence of a centaur with a horse’s head: so you’re basically a horse with a neck that’s too long and arms coming out of the neck.

Or just a centaur given they’re large.

Hey. Sorry if it was not clear, I'm not looking for playing a monster this time. But thanks for the suggestion anyway.


The first and easiest question to ask is... will your DM let you play as an animal character? You mightn't even have to go to the trouble creating a mounted character build if you can do this. And if they do let you play as an animal, will they run it with the same LA as their monster entry, or will they adjust it for you, since monsters are generally overpriced in terms of LA.

If you want to go with a mount without spellcasting, I'd check out the Wild Cohort feat, which was an online feat (http://web.archive.org/web/20150910144345/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Fre%2F20031118a).

Hey. Thanks for your suggestions. Sadly, I won't be able to play a creature/monster/animal or anything else like that. I might edit my original post to lower the confusion.

And I know the existence of that feat. But it is pretty limited and I believe there is way better AC you can get especially if you want to make a build around it.


The dragon idea would also allow your rider to take the dragon rider prestige class, which among other things increases the dragon’s flight maneuverability.

Sadly, as I said, I won't be able to play a dragon. But that sounds cool.

[Anthrowhale]

With an appropriate exotic saddle (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#saddleExotic), pretty much any creature can function as a mount for a creature one size smaller. The easy case here is a small creature (gnome/halfling/goblin/kobold) with a medium creature (elf/human/orc) as a mount. This could be two characters in a party or (say) a character and a small cohort. Large+Medium is also viable, although I believe all approaches to large size require a +1 level adjustment or RHD.

[Doctor Despair]

Check out the Shuhenja spell "when two become one. " it is used to some effect in the Horselord build in my sig

[ciopo]

You can get pretty close to your desire by making an arcane hierophant, thanks to its familiar companion feature, you're just a pearl of speech away from just roleplaying the companion and your character being just a buff delivery services for it.

Something like Druid 4/ wizard 3 / Arcane hierophant 10 / X 3

If dragon compendium is allowed, the enspell familiar feat would even allow you to leave the buffbot safely away, and adventure with just the FC, any spell you need cast on yourself you can just have the buffbot cast on himself and spellshared, the only iffy ones are those that would target you but not him, such as animal growth

[Twurps]

TLDR; Want to play a character focusing on its mount. Like almost not even playing the character or just to buff it/use the aid action or something like that?

I know the ubermount but it requires often playing a paladin or stacking multiple PrC and it makes sense for a theorical build but not really from a roleplay perspective if you know what I mean.

I'm not sure what your roleplay objections are exactly, as I don't see any. So apologies if this is less (than) helpful in that department.

There's a way to do the ubermount build without Paladin, as detailed in this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642548-Arcane-supermount-(no-dragon-mag)) thread. I think the one with the cleric dip at the bottom of this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25364419&postcount=8) works best.

It does take until lvl 7 before the 'mount' part kicks in. But at least until then you are a wizard, and you do have your Animal companion right from the start (or at least at wizard 1). And it ends up with full wizard casting, so plenty of opportunity to focus on the buffing part.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you are looking for an odd Ubermount build, I did make one recently: Hellspawned Rider (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?647962)
It's an Ubermount based on a warlock, which is very uncommon. The warlock is sole there as rider to enhance the mount (e.g. via wands). While the Ubermount kicks in a bit late (@lvl10), the power spike is worth it imho. Maybe you like the build or get inspired by it.

And if you wanna play a mount yourself, how about a giant super robot as mount for your entire party?
May I present: G.R.8 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24938996&postcount=113) (note: 0 spellcasting!)
A warforged tattooed monk that can turn itself into an large/huge Animated Object. His "shadow" is his rider and with huge size you can fit your entire party into it.

And finally I have an double Ubercharger build with mount: Papa Smurf (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608373)
A very straightforward build. Strong Ubercharger dmg from mount and yourself + 8th lvl spellcasting.

[Jervis]

I recommend the Zehentarim Sky Mage PrC. Technically 3.0 but the class itself gives a mount with HD = 1 + class level + Cha mod. Full caster progression as well as some bonus feats centered around mounted combat. I recommend Sha’ir entry because it’s the best charisma caster that can qualify without dragon mag content.

[False God]

Are you banned from being a straight-up intelligent monster/beast, or are things in the middle banned as well like the various Were-creatures, reverse-were's and hengeyokai?

Does it matter if the animal form you get is of any real combat value? There's Tibbit for that.

Can you do templates? Taking Divine Minion but NOT stacking the Wild Shape variant it gives you gets you a fairly low template in exchange for turning into a specific normal animal for an unlimited duration.

You could of course, just be a Druid and ignore all the gameplay slowing elements. You turn into one or two specific animals, the stats of which you already have prepared, and your character dislikes being in human form. I mean honestly I love the Druid class too, but most of the time I don't even bother running an animal companion or summoning.

[Jervis]

Are you banned from being a straight-up intelligent monster/beast, or are things in the middle banned as well like the various Were-creatures, reverse-were's and hengeyokai?

Does it matter if the animal form you get is of any real combat value? There's Tibbit for that.

Can you do templates? Taking Divine Minion but NOT stacking the Wild Shape variant it gives you gets you a fairly low template in exchange for turning into a specific normal animal for an unlimited duration.

You could of course, just be a Druid and ignore all the gameplay slowing elements. You turn into one or two specific animals, the stats of which you already have prepared, and your character dislikes being in human form. I mean honestly I love the Druid class too, but most of the time I don't even bother running an animal companion or summoning.

It really says something about Druid that you can ignore two out of three of its main mechanics and still be crazy good.

[Fizban]

There's a sort of reverse-causality where the more a game element focuses on actually giving you something new, the more the writers tend to pay attention and make sure it won't be overpowered. Most optimization relies on combining a ton of "little" things that were casually thrown in, adding up to ridiculousness over multiple books. Thus is the Druid itself, Ubermount builds, etc. If you want something that actually lets you have a monster, it's going to be massively reigned in, like Beast Heart Adept. The most unbounded option will be Leadership, until you run into LA problems that. . . were put in place as part of keeping Leadership under control. Basically you've already seen the answer- it's existing Druid or Ubermount builds, while simply deciding not to force yourself into Maximum Power all the time.

I like the Bonded Summoner from Mini's, as the elemental gets suitably thick, faster than summon spells as it must. But you have to do 5 levels of spellcasting first, it continues them at half, and if you play at levels where 9th level spell matter then the maximum size of Elder will still get laughed at by summon spells.

Presumably you've been told not to bother with homebrew, else I'm quite sure there are multiple versions of "become slavering monster" base classes, likely tuned more towards the power level you're looking for.

[holbita]

Last time I played a mount I did it as Healer 20, choosing my Unicorn Companion as my cohort for leadership, One of, if not the best, way to play an unicorn, but you will not get the unicor until level 8 nor it will become playable for real until level 11+, so keep that in mind if you go this route.

[Curbludgeon]

It's been some time since I've looked at super/ubermount builds. I'll admit to a soft spot for bruisers protecting a small compatriot, but more in the sense of a child befriending a magic robot than pokemon.

Can a bonus to a mount coming from a class even be applied to a medium size humanoid wearing that above-mentioned saddle harness? Is a Tibbit ridden by, say, a Petal a viable mount (https://i.pinimg.com/564x/be/b5/f1/beb5f19e940f4bec6dec6ac5a5ba4a67.jpg)?

The ubermount builds which emphasize a paladin mount over making wizard/KotBM work seem like they'd better model a tiny rider whom doesn't especially contribute. Of course, a wizard-forward build could have the caster trapped on another plane, only occasionally giving advice or the odd shared spell.

[Harrow]

Have you considered playing an Effigy Master? They specialize in making effigy creatures, a template that can be applied to most creatures (not oozes, undead, other constructs, or outsiders, but you're not losing much missing out on those). They lose all special attacks except extraordinary special attacks that do not allow a saving throw (such as rake, rend, or constrict) and also lose all special qualities, effectively turning most creatures into beatsticks. You could, technically, use a hydra, which gets an attack per HD and I think should keep its weird pseudo-pounce which means it'll just wreck a lot of appropriate leveled encounters (and anything that can survive it can wreck you in turn). I would probably use things like bears and big cats. Something like that could certainly be used as a mount.

You've still got a Wizard or Sorcerer and you only lose 1 level of casting playing an Effigy Master, so the actual effectiveness of your character is very dependent on spell choice. If you want to really lean into playing the mount rather than the character, I've heard of something from Dragon Magazine that can give constructs you make intelligence. That should give it skills, feats, and a personality.

EDIT: It seems fey, plant, and elementals are also off limits for effigies. Not that it matters much, because most of the cool things they could do an effigy would lose anyway.

[Twurps]

The ubermount builds which emphasize a paladin mount over making wizard/KotBM work seem like they'd better model a tiny rider whom doesn't especially contribute. Of course, a wizard-forward build could have the caster trapped on another plane, only occasionally giving advice or the odd shared spell.

I vaguely remember a post on this forum from someone who wanted to play a character locked in box, without any line of sight/effect to the outside world to increase his/her survivability. being carried around by a mount of some sort? Of course I can't find it now.

[Condé]

Oh boy. So many answers. I didn't know so many people would be interested.


You can get pretty close to your desire by making an arcane hierophant, thanks to its familiar companion feature, you're just a pearl of speech away from just roleplaying the companion and your character being just a buff delivery services for it.

Something like Druid 4/ wizard 3 / Arcane hierophant 10 / X 3

If dragon compendium is allowed, the enspell familiar feat would even allow you to leave the buffbot safely away, and adventure with just the FC, any spell you need cast on yourself you can just have the buffbot cast on himself and spellshared, the only iffy ones are those that would target you but not him, such as animal growth

It is interesting indeed. But I would prefer to avoid being a Druid again... Because honestly, you already have so much you don't really even have to be an Arcane Hierophant at this point. I mean, you have your animal companion from level 1, is probably the best pet for a long time until entering a PrC, and can be sacrified without any problem since you get another one in no time for no cost at all.

Dragon Compendium is not. Personally, I have read people argue about if it is first or 2nd party stuff. Still have no definitive answer.

But eh, Arcane Hierophant is cool I must admit but not what I'm looking for to be honest.


I'm not sure what your roleplay objections are exactly, as I don't see any. So apologies if this is less (than) helpful in that department.

There's a way to do the ubermount build without Paladin, as detailed in this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?642548-Arcane-supermount-(no-dragon-mag)) thread. I think the one with the cleric dip at the bottom of this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25364419&postcount=8) works best.

It does take until lvl 7 before the 'mount' part kicks in. But at least until then you are a wizard, and you do have your Animal companion right from the start (or at least at wizard 1). And it ends up with full wizard casting, so plenty of opportunity to focus on the buffing part.

I'm just not a big fan of jumping between multiple prestige classes... Being a paladin, then a beastmaster and an halfing outrider and one more thing seems a bit... I don't know... It looks like you are trying to make something really hard. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like the idea to push the limit of the system but I never have been comfortable with the idea of playing a character like this for real. In theory it sounds cool but otherwise... Not so much.

Otherwise, interesting build indeed. I'll keep that in mind. I like the idea of not having to be a paladin for once.


If you are looking for an odd Ubermount build, I did make one recently: Hellspawned Rider (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?647962)
It's an Ubermount based on a warlock, which is very uncommon. The warlock is sole there as rider to enhance the mount (e.g. via wands). While the Ubermount kicks in a bit late (@lvl10), the power spike is worth it imho. Maybe you like the build or get inspired by it.

And if you wanna play a mount yourself, how about a giant super robot as mount for your entire party?
May I present: G.R.8 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24938996&postcount=113) (note: 0 spellcasting!)
A warforged tattooed monk that can turn itself into an large/huge Animated Object. His "shadow" is his rider and with huge size you can fit your entire party into it.

And finally I have an double Ubercharger build with mount: Papa Smurf (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608373)
A very straightforward build. Strong Ubercharger dmg from mount and yourself + 8th lvl spellcasting.

I know your build I even was the first to ask you a question in it. :D
This is the kind of build I'm looking for, it is super original and "cool" (If that even means anything)... In this build the mount part comes pretty late if I recall correctly and even if it is the star of the show, the rider is still very active.
But I really liked what you came up with.


I recommend the Zehentarim Sky Mage PrC. Technically 3.0 but the class itself gives a mount with HD = 1 + class level + Cha mod. Full caster progression as well as some bonus feats centered around mounted combat. I recommend Sha’ir entry because it’s the best charisma caster that can qualify without dragon mag content.

It is in my original post and I must admit I LOVE the concept of this prestige class. You can basically access anything and I even started to look at more mounts. (There is a nice little thread where someone did a list of cool mounts you can have)
My only big fat problem is... If your mount die... You can't have another one for TWO levels. But you can cast Animate Dead on the old one. And that is why I'm looking for near unkillable freak of nature mount (Like with regeneration and DR, SR etc...) or something that can still be useful once in undead form. But as a Zombi it would be stuck with 1 action per round and as a Skeleton it would lose almost anything... So that sucks a little bit.


Are you banned from being a straight-up intelligent monster/beast, or are things in the middle banned as well like the various Were-creatures, reverse-were's and hengeyokai?

Does it matter if the animal form you get is of any real combat value? There's Tibbit for that.

Can you do templates? Taking Divine Minion but NOT stacking the Wild Shape variant it gives you gets you a fairly low template in exchange for turning into a specific normal animal for an unlimited duration.

You could of course, just be a Druid and ignore all the gameplay slowing elements. You turn into one or two specific animals, the stats of which you already have prepared, and your character dislikes being in human form. I mean honestly I love the Druid class too, but most of the time I don't even bother running an animal companion or summoning.

Starting from level 1, for what I can tell, there is no way to play a Were-something. (Except from the Savage Progression web enhancement) but there are not great for what I remember.
Divine Minion is dope... But banned at my table.

And I just played a Druid and it would be quite frustrating to just ignore most of your features just because you don't want to use them. I mean... You have them. Why would you just ignore them?
I would greatly prefer not having these features than do like they do not exist.


It really says something about Druid that you can ignore two out of three of its main mechanics and still be crazy good.

Right? This class is ridiculous. Still don't understand how it was up the only class with the animal companion with full-progression AND spellcasting AND wildshape.


There's a sort of reverse-causality where the more a game element focuses on actually giving you something new, the more the writers tend to pay attention and make sure it won't be overpowered. Most optimization relies on combining a ton of "little" things that were casually thrown in, adding up to ridiculousness over multiple books. Thus is the Druid itself, Ubermount builds, etc. If you want something that actually lets you have a monster, it's going to be massively reigned in, like Beast Heart Adept. The most unbounded option will be Leadership, until you run into LA problems that. . . were put in place as part of keeping Leadership under control. Basically you've already seen the answer- it's existing Druid or Ubermount builds, while simply deciding not to force yourself into Maximum Power all the time.

I like the Bonded Summoner from Mini's, as the elemental gets suitably thick, faster than summon spells as it must. But you have to do 5 levels of spellcasting first, it continues them at half, and if you play at levels where 9th level spell matter then the maximum size of Elder will still get laughed at by summon spells.

Presumably you've been told not to bother with homebrew, else I'm quite sure there are multiple versions of "become slavering monster" base classes, likely tuned more towards the power level you're looking for.

Of course if you look at homebrew you WILL find an answer to any problem. But, we never use homebrew at our table. Except one guy who totally like homebrew but he seems to always take the worst unbalanced garbage he can find and that achieve nothing but keep the others away from the idea of using homebrews.

Which is sad since there is some really good ones.

And for the Beast Heart Adept, I know I'm picky and anoying and never satisfied but you end up with an army of goons and I really don't want to play another character controlling a freaking army. And sure I could focus on only one animal and keep the others for scouting etc... But where is the fun in that?


Last time I played a mount I did it as Healer 20, choosing my Unicorn Companion as my cohort for leadership, One of, if not the best, way to play an unicorn, but you will not get the unicor until level 8 nor it will become playable for real until level 11+, so keep that in mind if you go this route.

Interesting. But yeah, level 11 is a bit late for my taste.
There is a Paladin ACF with a unicorn mount AND a prestige class from BoED (But you can enter at level 8 if I'm not mistaken) I like the idea of having a nice Unicorn. Problem with all of them is if you lose your Unicorn you are pretty much screwed for a long, loooong time.


It's been some time since I've looked at super/ubermount builds. I'll admit to a soft spot for bruisers protecting a small compatriot, but more in the sense of a child befriending a magic robot than pokemon.

Can a bonus to a mount coming from a class even be applied to a medium size humanoid wearing that above-mentioned saddle harness? Is a Tibbit ridden by, say, a Petal a viable mount (https://i.pinimg.com/564x/be/b5/f1/beb5f19e940f4bec6dec6ac5a5ba4a67.jpg)?

The ubermount builds which emphasize a paladin mount over making wizard/KotBM work seem like they'd better model a tiny rider whom doesn't especially contribute. Of course, a wizard-forward build could have the caster trapped on another plane, only occasionally giving advice or the odd shared spell.

Saddly, no Dragon Compendium for me. But I like the idea. :D


Have you considered playing an Effigy Master? They specialize in making effigy creatures, a template that can be applied to most creatures (not oozes, undead, other constructs, or outsiders, but you're not losing much missing out on those). They lose all special attacks except extraordinary special attacks that do not allow a saving throw (such as rake, rend, or constrict) and also lose all special qualities, effectively turning most creatures into beatsticks. You could, technically, use a hydra, which gets an attack per HD and I think should keep its weird pseudo-pounce which means it'll just wreck a lot of appropriate leveled encounters (and anything that can survive it can wreck you in turn). I would probably use things like bears and big cats. Something like that could certainly be used as a mount.

You've still got a Wizard or Sorcerer and you only lose 1 level of casting playing an Effigy Master, so the actual effectiveness of your character is very dependent on spell choice. If you want to really lean into playing the mount rather than the character, I've heard of something from Dragon Magazine that can give constructs you make intelligence. That should give it skills, feats, and a personality.

EDIT: It seems fey, plant, and elementals are also off limits for effigies. Not that it matters much, because most of the cool things they could do an effigy would lose anyway.

Yes, I did in fact. I have two issues with this class:
- Xp cost.
- Enter at level 8.

Otherwise yeah, the flavor is cool.


I vaguely remember a post on this forum from someone who wanted to play a character locked in box, without any line of sight/effect to the outside world to increase his/her survivability. being carried around by a mount of some sort? Of course I can't find it now.

I'm pretty sure to have read something similar too. Or even someone in a bubble or something similar. I can't recall exactly what it was.
Maybe it was in Pathfinder tho...

You basically played a sort of goldfish in a giant bubble and casting spells. And I'm ALMOST sure I've read somewhere someone was playing a character from the inside of a creature but I cannot be sure.

[Anthrowhale]

Starting from level 1, for what I can tell, there is no way to play a Were-something.

Hengeyokai are LA+0 with the 3.5 update.

Hengeyokai[Dog] has a 1d4+1 bite and with some barding could have a decent armor class.

Edit: Size small though... maybe with a monkey familiar you could be a mount?

[Wintermoot]

P1: Fair Elf, hop upon my back and let us run through the meadows free and fast!"

P2: "Windreaver, shut up, we are trying to negotiate with the royal court"

P1:"Windreaver was my slave name! Call me Sunflower!"

P3: "God, why did we keep the paladin's horse when he died?"

[Anthrowhale]

I'm still chewing on the Hengeyokai approach. A significant issue with the dog is that 1d4+1 just doesn't cut it.

An alternative approach is something like:

Hengeyokai[Badger] Rogue 2/Martial (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Wizard 2/Rogue[Lightbringer] 1/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10

With Feats:
1. Craven
3. Surrogate Spellcasting
Wizard 1: Weapon Finesse
6. Practiced Spellcaster
9. Extend Spell
12. Persistent Spell

At level 1 you get sneak attack, which can apply to claw/claw/bite. The base damage (1d2-1/1d2-1/1d3-1 is negligible), but 3d6+3 sneak attack is not. You are tiny (+2 to hit) but weak (-1 to hit) with two primary and one secondary attack. With a good flank, you can hit hard.

At level 3, the character concept comes online.
You pick up Weapon Finesse, which provides an effective +4 to hit.
You pick up Surrogate Spellcasting, which allows you to cast spells as a badger.
You pick up a Thrush familiar (diminutive, from Tome&Blood), whicSneak Attack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Fighter 11.h can speak and ride in an exotic saddle.

At level 5 the lightbringer rogue ACF applies sneak attack to the sneak attack immune.

At level 6, you are dealing (3d6+6 sneak attack)x3 sneak attack

At level 7, you pick up Hunter's Eye, allowing you to increase sneak attack to (5d6+7)x3.

By level 20, you have (9d6+20(Craven)+7d6(Hunter's Eye))x5 sneak attack (~= 380 damage) and you always hit due to persistent Wraithstrike. (The extra two natural attacks are from Girallon's Blessing. There are probably ways to get more.)

[Telok]

Magic of Ebberon, p.97, Leap Into Animal. Druid-ranger-consecrated harrier, all level 2.

Minute a level you jump literally into an animal and meat puppet it. You can't be affected or targeted while in there. You can't do anything but run the animal.

The only downside is the duration. Still, pimp out thd animal companion, try to acf wildshape for something decent, blow long duration spells spells buffing it, reserve 2nd level spells or wands for combat.

Could you go the wand crafter route on a druid well enough to make 2nd level wand spam worthwhile?

Edit; yeah, one game almost used it but I agreed with the DM that elephants were too cheap & powerful for essentially a "4 minute elephant wildshape" at 4th level.

[Jervis]

It is in my original post and I must admit I LOVE the concept of this prestige class. You can basically access anything and I even started to look at more mounts. (There is a nice little thread where someone did a list of cool mounts you can have)
My only big fat problem is... If your mount die... You can't have another one for TWO levels. But you can cast Animate Dead on the old one. And that is why I'm looking for near unkillable freak of nature mount (Like with regeneration and DR, SR etc...) or something that can still be useful once in undead form. But as a Zombi it would be stuck with 1 action per round and as a Skeleton it would lose almost anything... So that sucks a little bit.


Right? This class is ridiculous. Still don't understand how it was up the only class with the animal companion with full-progression AND spellcasting AND wildshape.



Ah must have missed it. Well for one I recommend getting a mount that is intelligent and can take part in a companion spirit ritual (PHB 2 IIRC). You basically get a permanent gentle repose effect that lets you revive it with Revivify cheaply. No necromancy involved. Just avoid disintegration. As for my personal favorites.

Night Mares can cast Astral Projection at will so you just stay back at the inn and send your and your mount’s astral selves. Still gain XP but if you die you just wake up back at the hotel.

Holyphants are absolute monsters with fairly low HD. They get meaty DR and can revive people with SLAs for free. Not immortal but a option for being very hard to kill.

Linnorms are obviously broken but require a charisma of at least 24 to get it after the full class level load. If you get one though, 18th level cleric casting. Seriously.

Debatable if templated monsters are on the table but if so dracolich is an option, and a powerful one at that. Hit die make getting one difficult though.

Of templated monsters are on the table then just grab a ghost version of your preferred monster. They return after 24 hours in most cases IIRC.

A half red dragon troll is also a very strong option. Basically immortal to anything but save or dies and massive amounts of acid.

Back to no templated options a favorite of mine for tiny kobolds is a succubus. Planeshift is a very good panic button. Though the same can be said of nightmares with etherealness.

I still recommend just picking what you think is fun though and using revival spells instead of animate dead. I believe that works.


Oh and as for Druids yeah, they’re stupid and I love it.

[Condé]

Hengeyokai are LA+0 with the 3.5 update.

Hengeyokai[Dog] has a 1d4+1 bite and with some barding could have a decent armor class.

Edit: Size small though... maybe with a monkey familiar you could be a mount?

Interesting idea. I see what you are implying, I think and... I have read multiple time, and I mostly agree with, but I don"t think a monkey can get proeficient with any weapon. Otherwise, yeah, being a dog with a monkey on top of you mauling people with multiple natural attacks seem fun.



I'm still chewing on the Hengeyokai approach. A significant issue with the dog is that 1d4+1 just doesn't cut it.

An alternative approach is something like:

Hengeyokai[Badger] Rogue 2/Martial (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Wizard 2/Rogue[Lightbringer] 1/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10

With Feats:
1. Craven
3. Surrogate Spellcasting
Wizard 1: Weapon Finesse
6. Practiced Spellcaster
9. Extend Spell
12. Persistent Spell

At level 1 you get sneak attack, which can apply to claw/claw/bite. The base damage (1d2-1/1d2-1/1d3-1 is negligible), but 3d6+3 sneak attack is not. You are tiny (+2 to hit) but weak (-1 to hit) with two primary and one secondary attack. With a good flank, you can hit hard.

At level 3, the character concept comes online.
You pick up Weapon Finesse, which provides an effective +4 to hit.
You pick up Surrogate Spellcasting, which allows you to cast spells as a badger.
You pick up a Thrush familiar (diminutive, from Tome&Blood), whicSneak Attack (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Fighter 11.h can speak and ride in an exotic saddle.

At level 5 the lightbringer rogue ACF applies sneak attack to the sneak attack immune.

At level 6, you are dealing (3d6+6 sneak attack)x3 sneak attack

At level 7, you pick up Hunter's Eye, allowing you to increase sneak attack to (5d6+7)x3.

By level 20, you have (9d6+20(Craven)+7d6(Hunter's Eye))x5 sneak attack (~= 380 damage) and you always hit due to persistent Wraithstrike. (The extra two natural attacks are from Girallon's Blessing. There are probably ways to get more.)

Ah ah. I see. Was not what I expected. I saw people make build with Hengeyokai in raven form. The badger is less popular I guess. Still cool idea. I fail to see what is the purpose of the Thrush, but maybe I'm just not fully awake today...


Magic of Ebberon, p.97, Leap Into Animal. Druid-ranger-consecrated harrier, all level 2.

Minute a level you jump literally into an animal and meat puppet it. You can't be affected or targeted while in there. You can't do anything but run the animal.

The only downside is the duration. Still, pimp out thd animal companion, try to acf wildshape for something decent, blow long duration spells spells buffing it, reserve 2nd level spells or wands for combat.

Could you go the wand crafter route on a druid well enough to make 2nd level wand spam worthwhile?

Edit; yeah, one game almost used it but I agreed with the DM that elephants were too cheap & powerful for essentially a "4 minute elephant wildshape" at 4th level.

Oops, I always forget to mention we mostly play in FR, so any content from Eberron is out. Which sadden me since I can't play as a Warforged and many more things... I didn't know Leap Into Animal.

If you want an interesting alternative, you have the Rhinoceros. CR4, 250gp. Still very powerful at ECL2 but more manageable I believe.

I once planned to play a character with Mercantile Background as a first feat and take a Rhino right from the start at first level. I think it would be pretty powerful and you should be stomping almost every encounter until level 2 or even 3... You just have to try to not get it killed.


Ah must have missed it. Well for one I recommend getting a mount that is intelligent and can take part in a companion spirit ritual (PHB 2 IIRC). You basically get a permanent gentle repose effect that lets you revive it with Revivify cheaply. No necromancy involved. Just avoid disintegration. As for my personal favorites.

Night Mares can cast Astral Projection at will so you just stay back at the inn and send your and your mount’s astral selves. Still gain XP but if you die you just wake up back at the hotel.

Holyphants are absolute monsters with fairly low HD. They get meaty DR and can revive people with SLAs for free. Not immortal but a option for being very hard to kill.

Linnorms are obviously broken but require a charisma of at least 24 to get it after the full class level load. If you get one though, 18th level cleric casting. Seriously.

Debatable if templated monsters are on the table but if so dracolich is an option, and a powerful one at that. Hit die make getting one difficult though.

Of templated monsters are on the table then just grab a ghost version of your preferred monster. They return after 24 hours in most cases IIRC.

A half red dragon troll is also a very strong option. Basically immortal to anything but save or dies and massive amounts of acid.

Back to no templated options a favorite of mine for tiny kobolds is a succubus. Planeshift is a very good panic button. Though the same can be said of nightmares with etherealness.

I still recommend just picking what you think is fun though and using revival spells instead of animate dead. I believe that works.


Oh and as for Druids yeah, they’re stupid and I love it.

Don't worry, the op is a bit all over the place. I had to make a quick research and found what you were talking about. It is in the DMG II, not the PHB II. But thank you I never heard of these before.
I wonder is, by RAW, Gentle Repose allow you to cast Revivify since the spell specifically call the "First round the creature die". But nice catch nontheless.

Nightmare is dope. I am just wondering what you'll need to switch from the Astral Plane to the Material Plane once you have cast Astral Projection. I have it in my list of wanted mounts. And the big plus is, if it dies, casting animate dead on a Nightmare is okay since it would preserve its 90ft fly speed. Sure it would lose its SLAs but at least you're not on foot.

I don't think you could get an Ollyphant. I mean, nothing by RAW forbid you from taking a good mount, but it seems a bit strange... I mean, the Zhentarim sending you a Ollyphant seem... Weird to me.

Linnorms are out of my league but yeah, pretty terrifying.

Yeah I wonder if you can have templated creatures. There is examples from Shadowdale : The Scouring of the Land, where some Zhentarim Skymages have creatures with templates. I guess that is a "Talk with your DM" kind of thing.

From my list I have really nice ones:
- Pyroclastic Wyrmling, 7HD. Sadly can't be a mount because small. (Or you have to be a small race and cast Reduce Person on yourself I guess) Pretty well-known for being cheesy.

- Green Abishai, 6HD. Immune to fire/poison, 20 resistance to acid and cold, DR10 except Good/blessed weapons or holy water... So yeah basically DR10/- unless you are fighting a party of paladins. Regeneration 6, 4 attacks and telepathy 100ft. The fly speed if meh at best and the maneuvrability is garbage. But overall pretty solid.

- Malaugrym if not updated has Shapechange as a level 20 sorcerer. (But it would be lame to not use the updated one)

- Ogre Mage. Not good as a CR8 monster, but nice chassis. Invisibility at will (And no mention of "Personal only"), cone of cold at ECL 6, SR19, slow fly speed but good maneuvrability. Not the best but strong if you get it right from the first level of the PrC. And you can talk with it and keep it in town, thanks to the Ogre Mage having Change Shape at will.

- Sharn, 4HD, basically 1 full round action + 1 standard action or 2 standards + 1 move. I do not plan to use it.

- Sinister, 4HD. Not great but perfect fly maneuvrability and Missile Deflection can be usefull.

- If you can get to the 10HD, Vrock is awesome.

- Wyvern, 7 HD, 6 attacks and a poison at 2d6 CON damage.

- Advespa, 4 HD, 5 attacks, Regen 2(Except Acid and Holy/blessed weapons) SR 15, good flyspeed and maneuvrability. Overall pretty cool, just cast something to give him some Acid resistance and you're set.

If you have access to templates, the possibilites are endless I guess.

[Telok]

Oops, I always forget to mention we mostly play in FR, so any content from Eberron is out. Which sadden me since I can't play as a Warforged and many more things... I didn't know Leap Into Animal.

Yeah, thats common. But it may be worth asking about importing or developing your own spell in game. As long as you don't utterly abuse it I find most DMs are OK with imports that technically down-power you (druid won't be all casting summons & AC attacks & wildshaped in combat) and fill a character concept.

If you get to research it in game maybe aim for a 3rd level hours/level version.

[Anthrowhale]

I fail to see what is the purpose of the Thrush, but maybe I'm just not fully awake today...

Satisfying 'you are a mount', comic relief, distraction, and perhaps using command word items.

I had one other thought: even though you are a badger, you're technically still a humanoid according the 3.5 update and thus subject to enlarge person. Hence, you could support a monkey rider (tiny) under the effects of a (permanency perhaps) enlarge person.

Ideally, you'd have a rider with Mounted Combat (to negate attacks), Allied Defense (to jack up your AC), and Double Team (to make sneak attack more applicable). I don't think you can do that with a familiar, but maybe with the arcane hierophant's companion familiar...?