How likely is it that we’ll see a epic level Red Cloak soon?

[Jervis]

I was rereading some issues when something occurred to me. Red Cloak and gang have been doing a lot of adventuring lately. We know at least one of those dungeons they’ve cleaned, most likely likely all of them assuming they follow normal dnd logic of encounters, is high enough CR to give Xykon XP, who is at minimum ECL 25 due to being a epic level caster with the Lich template mind you. That is A Lot of XP for a non-epic character with no LA. We know RC has had 9th level spells since he used Gate to send Xykon to the astral plane. He mentioned that 9 was a new spell level for him so I’ll assume that he was around level 17 when he started dungeon crashing. Some basic encounter math says he should be rubber banding up very quickly right now and that trivial gate XP loss probably won’t be much more than a road bump. So how likely is it, realistically speaking, that we see a RC with epic spellcasting soon?

[Peelee]

There doesn't seem to be much thematic reason for Redcloak to be epic.

[Fyraltari]

There doesn't seem to be much thematic reason for Redcloak to be epic.

There doesn't seem to be much for Xykon to be epic either. It's not transformative of their characters it just means they're more powerful.

And the villains being more powerful than the heroes is generally good storytelling.

[Laurentio III]

An epic Redcloak would weaken the alliance with Xykon, unless Redcloak is lying about what he can do.
Xykon want to be the upper potato, otherwise he feels endangered.
So the moment Redcloak uses an epic spell, we are trully at the end of the story.

[Mike Havran]

I don't think you can just pray for an epic divine spell when you reach the level and get the feat; you need to research the spell and that consumes resources and, most importantly, time that Redcloak does not have. So there will not be much difference in Redcloak's contribution to the climax even if he does hit epic levels. The only thing he needs to focus on is the Ritual, and he has that already.

[windgate]

I don't think you can just pray for an epic divine spell when you reach the level and get the feat; you need to research the spell and that consumes resources and, most importantly, time that Redcloak does not have. So there will not be much difference in Redcloak's contribution to the climax even if he does hit epic levels. The only thing he needs to focus on is the Ritual, and he has that already.

Speaking as someone who know almost nothing about 3.5 edition. What separates an epic level spell from the ritual they are planning to cast?

I'm under the impression that epic spells are identified by their extreme power, rarity and difficulty. AFAIK the upcoming ritual has never been cast before (or at least by mortals)....

[Jervis]

Speaking as someone who know almost nothing about 3.5 edition. What separates an epic level spell from the ritual they are planning to cast?

I'm under the impression that epic spells are identified by their extreme power, rarity and difficulty. AFAIK the upcoming ritual has never been cast before (or at least by mortals)....

Huh, for some reason I thought everyone in the fandom was a 3.x player. Not that it’s a bad thing i’m just surprised, I got into OoTS because a bunch of friends of mine who play 3.x recommended it to me.

Epic spells are a bit of a weird rules case in 3.x. All spells generally have a level from 0-9 with 9 being the most powerful. You can have spells with a higher effective level than that assuming a caster has appropriate feats to be able to cast 10+ level spells and has the epic heighten spell feat, but those aren’t epic. Epic spells are mechanically treated as having a effective level of 10+ but really they don’t have a level for most purposes. Epic spells can only be cast by someone with a caster level of 21 (as apposed to 17+ for 9ths) and the epic spellcasting feat. Unlike normal spells which can be copied into spell books, prayed for, etc. epic spells have to be created by the caster or recreated using existing research with experimentation and research that requires a very high spellcraft check, a lot of money, and a lot of time. Basically every individual caster needs to create their own version of the epic spell to cast it, and a epic spell is always stronger than what a 9th level spell like wish and miracle can accomplish. A caster that’s level 21+ can cast a number of epic spells each day equal to their ranks in spellcraft/10.

The theory that the ritual is a epic spell is a decent theory since it’s effects are in line with the hyper specific and ultra powerful world changing scope of epic spells, but it has the issue that it implies that RC has to be epic level to do his part of the ritual. That alone isn’t a issue but it implies that RC had to have researched the epic spell before taking Epic Spellcasting since we know he’s not epic level yet. That means he either knows the rules of the spell and will need to take a few weeks to research the spell proper or the rules are getting bent allowing him to research but not cast the spell prior to taking the feat, the latter isn’t a unreasonable assumption mind you just something to keep in mind.

[windgate]

My experience with 3.5e is limited to a single session almost a decade ago. I started D&D halfway through the era of 4th edition. There are some specific contextual stuff in the comic I don't understand (so I don't really participate in this forum). However, basic familiarity with the genre tropes and theme is enough to get the story and most of the jokes.


Being on topic though regarding caster levels. Thus far, the storyline has indicate that redcloaks red cloak (.....) has imbued him with improved vitality/lifespan and knowledge of the ritual. What else does it do?

In other games and genre's there are events or resources a character can acquire to gain specific and limited boosts to their effective level in various things. Does 3.5 have magic items that can grant feats or specific aspects of effective character levels to the wearer?

The current comic (#1264) has damage (loss) to a soul correlating to the XP loss requirement for the Gate spell. Is it viable game mechanics wise for this to work somewhat backwards? Perhaps a reworked version of drain life where the soul (ie experience) rather than hit points of the victim is transferred to the caster? Enough to gain the levels to cast an epic spell?

Per the comic, wearing the mantle imparted the knowledge of the spell to each wearer. What is the additional step to "research it"? As far as i can tell, the comic has yet to reveal the component costs of the ritual either (perhaps its requires the death of an epic level arcane spellcaster after they cast the arcane half...)

Again. little to no knowledge of 3.5, but these are what I'm theorizing as an outsider.

[RatElemental]

The theory that the ritual is a epic spell is a decent theory since it’s effects are in line with the hyper specific and ultra powerful world changing scope of epic spells, but it has the issue that it implies that RC has to be epic level to do his part of the ritual. That alone isn’t a issue but it implies that RC had to have researched the epic spell before taking Epic Spellcasting since we know he’s not epic level yet. That means he either knows the rules of the spell and will need to take a few weeks to research the spell proper or the rules are getting bent allowing him to research but not cast the spell prior to taking the feat, the latter isn’t a unreasonable assumption mind you just something to keep in mind.

Epic spells allow for other casters to contribute non-epic spell slots to them to lower the casting DC. However, that would mean that Xykon needs to be epic for it to work and I don't think we've ever had confirmation that the arcane caster had to be epic.

[hroþila]

Regardless of how powerful the ritual is, Redcloak has never implied you need to be Epic to cast it. Quite the opposite, actually, since he and Xykon have always acted and talked like they can get started with the ritual as soon as they secure a Gate. I don't think this is a problem because, well, it's not a normal spell, it's plot-relevant magic.

[Jervis]

Epic spells allow for other casters to contribute non-epic spell slots to them to lower the casting DC. However, that would mean that Xykon needs to be epic for it to work and I don't think we've ever had confirmation that the arcane caster had to be epic.

We never had confirmation that the arcane caster for the ritual had to be epic but we know that RC needs a powerful caster and that Xykon is epic. Not a confirmation admittedly but but something to keep in mind I think.



Being on topic though regarding caster levels. Thus far, the storyline has indicate that redcloaks red cloak (.....) has imbued him with improved vitality/lifespan and knowledge of the ritual. What else does it do?

In other games and genre's there are events or resources a character can acquire to gain specific and limited boosts to their effective level in various things. Does 3.5 have magic items that can grant feats or specific aspects of effective character levels to the wearer?

The current comic (#1264) has damage (loss) to a soul correlating to the XP loss requirement for the Gate spell. Is it viable game mechanics wise for this to work somewhat backwards? Perhaps a reworked version of drain life where the soul (ie experience) rather than hit points of the victim is transferred to the caster? Enough to gain the levels to cast an epic spell?

Per the comic, wearing the mantle imparted the knowledge of the spell to each wearer. What is the additional step to "research it"? As far as i can tell, the comic has yet to reveal the component costs of the ritual either (perhaps its requires the death of an epic level arcane spellcaster after they cast the arcane half...)

Again. little to no knowledge of 3.5, but these are what I'm theorizing as an outsider.

Some items do give feats, or rather the benefits of feats (hello nightstick). There are also items that grant class features of a given level or increase your effective level for the purposes of something, monks belt and several wildshape centric items are examples of this. The cloak is probably a artifact mechanically so it definitely has a CL of 21+. It giving the ability to cast a specific epic spell to someone who is otherwise not epic isn’t unprecedented. No existing item does this but artifacts do a lot of things that items shouldn’t normally be able to do.

As for XP drain. The closest we have to that is the thought bottle that can return missing XP and levels, but it can’t make you gain XP past your normal limits in most cases. There is circle magic which lets casters give up spell slots to the circle leader so he can modify spells, this lets you cast spells of up to effective level 32 in some cases. Though these aren’t epic technically. He could cheese his way to epic over the course of a week or so if he found a lot of creatures sufficiently strong enough to let him level but that’s very immersion breaking in a way the comic normally avoids. It goes into meta humor at some points but something like a character leveling to epic by killing ducks with the kaiju template seems unlikely.

[pearl jam]

Would you estimate the odds to be one in a million? :elan:

:vaarsuvius: :roy:

[Carl]

Simplest answer is that the ritual isn't Epic. Xykon wasn't Epic when they first met him AFAIK so it probably just requires both a divine and an arcane caster to pull off. As evidenced by the whole situation aroudn mass Death Ward OOTS does allow creating of new non-epic spells via appropriate work.

Also Yes for a divine artifact it's entirely possibble RC is getting a special spell slot from the mantle that gives him te ability to cast the ritual, but in that case the ritual is probably the only thing it can do.

[Fyraltari]

Huh, for some reason I thought everyone in the fandom was a 3.x player. Not that it’s a bad thing i’m just surprised, I got into OoTS because a bunch of friends of mine who play 3.x recommended it to me.

D&D fourth edition came out 14 years ago. I think most of the fandom have never played it. I have never played any D&D, and I think a large chunk of the fandom is the same.

[SlashDash]

Redcloak mentioned he had a new spell level (9) when he killed the resistance leader in Azure City. That would make him 17 at the time and I don't see him gaining 4 levels since.

Also, as others noted, the point is that team evil need to be stronger than the good guys and specifically Xykon has to be the absolute ultimate threat. Certainly compared to Redcloak whom he just sees as a lackey.

Epic vs Non-Epic just sounds like a bigger deal than level 23 vs level 21.

[The MunchKING]

D&D fourth edition came out 14 years ago. I think most of the fandom have never played it. I have never played any D&D, and I think a large chunk of the fandom is the same.

Contrarywise, D&D Fourth Edition came out 14 years ago. Nerds aren't dying off that fast, so most of the D&D fandom probably played stuff before that.

Unless you meant the comic's fandom in which case, I wouldn't think a large chunk would be interested in a D&D comic if they didn't play any D&D, but I have been wrong about assumptions before.

[Peelee]

Contrarywise, D&D Fourth Edition came out 14 years ago. Nerds aren't dying off that fast, so most of the D&D fandom probably played stuff before that.

Unless you meant the comic's fandom in which case, I wouldn't think a large chunk would be interested in a D&D comic if they didn't play any D&D, but I have been wrong about assumptions before.

IIRC the author has estimated most of his audience is not comprised of RPG players.

[hroþila]

D&D players sometimes assume OotS is super obscure and hard to get into if you're not a D&D player yourself, but the truth is most rules jokes work perfectly well as long as you have any roleplaying experience, including from computer games. I've never played any tabletop D&D (aside from a short-lived attempt to play a 3.5 campaign on a different message board), but I started reading at #0001, I was immediately hooked and there really wasn't much of a knowledge barrier. I would assume most readers have at least some gaming background, but relatively few are D&D players, much less active ones.

[KillianHawkeye]

I think Redcloak may reach epic level for the comic's epilogue, assuming he survives the climax and lives happily ever after. Maybe he won't see epic levels at all, but I definitely don't think he will during the actual story.

[BaronOfHell]

I don't know, even if they could resurrect soon, he'd still have to drop everything he stands for, not to mention I don't think he has any levels of cleric? Would the dark one even accept him? Also would he need to be polymorphed, or would the red cloak reject him otherwise?

[Jervis]

I don't know, even if they could resurrect soon, he'd still have to drop everything he stands for, not to mention I don't think he has any levels of cleric? Would the dark one even accept him? Also would he need to be polymorphed, or would the red cloak reject him otherwise?

What? Who are you talking about?

[Peelee]

What? Who are you talking about?

The goblin is named Redcloak because he wears a red cloak. Ergo the character Soon, who was epic level, could wear the Crimson Mantle and be called an "epic level Red Cloak Soon", as in the thread title.

It's a joke. A clever one that I appreciated, at that.

[Jervis]

The goblin is named Redcloak because he wears a red cloak. Ergo the character Soon, who was epic level, could wear the Crimson Mantle and be called an "epic level Red Cloak Soon", as in the thread title.

It's a joke. A clever one that I appreciated, at that.

Ok, I just got that now. I retract my question

[Carl]

The goblin is named Redcloak because he wears a red cloak. Ergo the character Soon, who was epic level, could wear the Crimson Mantle and be called an "epic level Red Cloak Soon", as in the thread title.

It's a joke. A clever one that I appreciated, at that.

Thank you, went straight over my head.

[Trixie_One]

I would assume most readers have at least some gaming background, but relatively few are D&D players, much less active ones.

Agreed, I played D&D with a group in college, and it was so appallingly awful due to the DM and some of other players that I'm never doing that again. Before someone 'not all DM's' I'm well aware, DM'd some Paranoia myself when I went off to uni, but I'm also keenly aware the guy has been heavily involved in the scene in the region where I live, and trying to join any group without moving to another place in the country is too high a risk of meeting him again.

Reason I still get most of the jokes is purely down to cultural osmosis and playing Baldur's Gate 2.

[Mike Havran]

D&D players sometimes assume OotS is super obscure and hard to get into if you're not a D&D player yourself, but the truth is most rules jokes work perfectly well as long as you have any roleplaying experience, including from computer games. I've never played any tabletop D&D (aside from a short-lived attempt to play a 3.5 campaign on a different message board), but I started reading at #0001, I was immediately hooked and there really wasn't much of a knowledge barrier. I would assume most readers have at least some gaming background, but relatively few are D&D players, much less active ones. I came across OotS by reading comments in DM of the Rings (https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612). I imagine quite a few OotS reades firstly read Darths&Droids (https://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html) which also combine D&D elements with a well-known franchise.

[Fyraltari]

I came across OotS by reading comments in DM of the Rings (https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=612). I imagine quite a few OotS reades firstly read Darths&Droids (https://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/0001.html) which also combine D&D elements with a well-known franchise.

I came here because it kept showing up on TvTropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging).

[Peelee]

I came across it back in the brief period I used StumbleUpon. Got the Monty Python strip. Checked out a couple others, went to the beginning, and binged. This was back when 804 was the current strip, I believe. I played D&D at the time but the way I found the comic was entirely irrelevant to it.

[Eric the White]

Simplest answer is that the ritual isn't Epic. Xykon wasn't Epic when they first met him AFAIK so it probably just requires both a divine and an arcane caster to pull off. As evidenced by the whole situation aroudn mass Death Ward OOTS does allow creating of new non-epic spells via appropriate work.

Also Yes for a divine artifact it's entirely possibble RC is getting a special spell slot from the mantle that gives him te ability to cast the ritual, but in that case the ritual is probably the only thing it can do.

You know I think I always just kind of assumed Redcloak was Epic. (Having only ever played 1-2 editions my rules knowledge is low) that said, we also have some evidence that you don't need to be epic-tier powerful to affect the snarl or the gates. After all they were created by non-epic spellcasters.

[hroþila]

You know I think I always just kind of assumed Redcloak was Epic. (Having only ever played 1-2 editions my rules knowledge is low) that said, we also have some evidence that you don't need to be epic-tier powerful to affect the snarl or the gates. After all they were created by non-epic spellcasters.
Oh, Lirian and Dorukan were actually both Epic at the time. In SoD Redcloak says that both casters need to be Epic to build a gate. The Dark One's ritual is simply different - presumably it's easier to planeshift a gate than to seal a rift in the very fabric of existence.

[Crimsonmantle]

I came here because it kept showing up on TvTropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging).
When I played D&D - and some competitor games - it was called AD&D but the quoted statement is true of me as well. Even tho' I've long since stopped frequenting tvtropes...

[Potatopeelerkin]

I know the topic of conversation has moved on, but as further evidence against the ritual being Epic, Xykon and Jirix (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) seemed to think the idea that Tsukiko could cast it on her own was reasonable, and she's definitely not Epic. Granted, they won't know as much about the ritual as Redcloak does, but Xykon would probably know if it was Epic level, right?

[mehs]

Then again, she was about level 14 and it was a big revelation for her figuring out what school and subschool the ritual is. Even after months of her researching, she had not the slightest clue of what it actually did.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Chiming in quickly to note I've never played Dungeons and Dragons. I was still able to enjoy most of the jokes, and the story in particular. Much, much later on I began to enjoy content like Critical Role, which I have open in another tab right now.

I've still never played DnD and I likely won't be able to as I have 2 very young kids and we live in a very rural area and I don't have the hours to spare for a tabletop game during normal daylight hours.

All of that hasn't prevented me from enjoying fantasy RPG video games, including very DnDesque games like Tactics Ogre, nor has it prevented me from watching web series about being a GM or how to build your characters.

It's all very fascinating to me, even though there's no way to fit the actual game into my schedule. Even if I could play a game online, it'd be late at night when it's supposed to be silent in the house.

I love the content, but I will probably never end up actually playing the game a lot of this stuff is based on, ever. Maybe when I'm a very old man, because I'm nearly 40 and my youngest isn't 1 yet.

But yeah, you don't have to have played DnD to enjoy the comic, for sure.

[CriticalFailure]

A possible thematic reason to make Redcloak epic, on top of growing more threatening to Xykon, as others have already mentioned, is that there may never have been an epic goblin character given that OOTS works runs on game/story logic and goblins usually fill the role of low level enemies.

[Laurentio III]

Then again, she was about level 14 and it was a big revelation for her figuring out what school and subschool the ritual is. Even after months of her researching, she had not the slightest clue of what it actually did.
Not her fault. She missed the other half of the ritual. As soon as MitD told her about this specific, she figured it in record time.

[Mike Havran]

Not her fault. She missed the other half of the ritual. As soon as MitD told her about this specific, she figured it in record time.She did not figure much. Only that the main effect is from teleportation subschool. Enough to scare Redcloak, but little enough to consider raiding Redcloak's stuff to be easier than continuing to study the scroll.

[tomandtish]

IIRC the author has estimated most of his audience is not comprised of RPG players.

There's at least one person who has claimed he is here strictly for the forum and has never read the comic.