Need tips for my Paladin

[bbrown12]

Hey,

I am creating a Paladin for the first time and need some help. First of all:

In all that years, I learned that I really need a character that is versatile in combat and has good damage output.
I like min-maxing.
Realistically, I am planning to play this character until level ~12-15.
We are using almost all optional rule books that are reasonable for Faerûn.



Considering options:


How to early get a use for my Bonus Action? And should I play with Polearm Mastery?
I noticed, this seems really critical, as the Paladin doesn't have much options for his Bonus Action (BA). So, Polearm Mastery (PM) comes into play.


Should I use a shield or a 2H-Polearm for reach?

I could go for a Spear + Shield + Dueling Style

Pros: +2 Armor, +2 Dmg.
Cons: No reach to trigger a lot of reaction attacks

or use a 2H-Polearm + GWF or Defense

Pros: Reach to trigger reaction attacks w ith PA(!), higher Damage
Cons: -1/-2 armor compared to 1H/Shield (depending of the chosen Fighting Style).


Which race: Human (Variant) vs. Aasimar?

Human: Extra Feat, worse stats (2x +1), extra skill
Aasimar: No Feat, but better stats (+2/+1), Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation




(My) Conclusion:

Finally, I am always ending up with these "rough character sketches" of an early level 5 character:

Build 1: Aasimar, 2H Polearm Master

STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
Race: Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation
Fighting Style: Defensive Style (+1 Armor)
ASI: Polearm Mastery (for Bonus Action + Reach)


Build 2: Human (Variant), 2H Polearm Master

STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 13(ASI: +1), WIS 10, CHA 15+1
Race Feat: Polearm-Mastery (for Bonus Action + Reach)
Fighting Style: Defensive Style (+1 Armor)
ASI: Resilient CON


Build 3: Aasimar, 1H-Polearm Duelist

STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
Race: Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation
Fighting Style: Dueling (+2 Damage)
ASI: Polearm Mastery (for Bonus Action, but no reach!)



My Questions:


Did I forget to take anything into account?
What would you prefer/recommend and why?
Which Oath would you go for?


Thanks in advance!

[windgate]

It appears that you have pretty much already answered your own question. Your "rough sketches" are biasing you towards an Assimar using a reach weapon and Polearm Mastery. Go with that.

Smite spam with a PAM paladin is already pushing the upper envelope of damage with the class. There are options that can take it further (such as hexblade dip) and there are oath choices that have mathematically superior damage output. Min-maxing can be very effective when applied accurately but you don't have control over the choices of the DM and other players. A lot of the "optimal" decisions have conditional dependencies (a big one being "dead characters cant deal damage")

I would advise making your oath and fighting style choice depending on the rest of your party. Are you the only melee? how do you handle flying enemies and those that also have reach? Does the party have a someone to tackle healing and support? Does that party have a weakness to swarms? As a player, are you going to be bored and have nothing to do in non-combat situations?

Fighting Style Question:
The Blessed warrior fight style is unlikely to provide any significant combat boost to you (and requires sacrificing a relevant one) but having the guidance cantrip can be a wonderful benefit (and contribution) to the party (and you) outside of combat. Is that important enough to you to make it worth considering?

Paladin Oath question:
Here is a link that compares the various oaths in 4 different categories (Offense, Defense, Support, Roleplay).
https://blackcitadelrpg.com/paladin-oaths-ranked-5e/

That being said, does roleplaying flavor/fluff matter much to you? As a race, Assimar have angelic origins. Regardless of effectiveness, an Oath of Vengeance paladin gains wings at later levels, its kinda suited for a character trying to get in touch with their racial roots.

Based on the guide Oath of Vengeance is the highest offensive potential subclass. Oath of Conquest is weaker but can lock down swarms (and abuse reach weapons with the level 7 feature).

[bbrown12]

Hey,

thanks for your answer! Yeah, you seem right. I already prefer one of those "sketches". ;)

I thought that:


1H + Shield will have less attacks (because of the missing reach), lacks of damage and only has "only"+1 armor (compared to Defensive Style, what could be the golden mean). So, I would prefer one of the 2H variants.
Comparing the 2H variants on level 8, both have the same stats. Human has a CON saving throw (from Resilient). On the other hand, Aasimar offers A LOT of useful racial feats, what I prefer. And it offers much more RP-potential than Human.
All in all, I tend to go for the 2H-Aasimar-PA-Master.

We have two beginners, which are playtesting. Unfortunately, the group composition isn't that clear at the moment.

I didn't know the Blessed Warrior. Sounds interesting. If we have no cleric later on, I could imagine picking that. My total armor (wearing Plate Mail later on) would "only" be 18. Is that enough for a melee?


And I got a questions concerning the Aasimar rules. Which one would you prefer - the older ones (VGtM) or the newer ones (MotM)? They somehow differ in the Usage of Healing Hands and Clestial Revelation.


VGtM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an ACTION, but deals much more Damage (equals Character Level). Healing Hands heals 1 HP per Character Level.
MotM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an BONUS ACTION, but deals less deals Damage (equals Proficiency Bonus). Healing Hands heals 1D4 equals to you Proficiency Bonus.


At the moment, we are playing without MotM. Although the Damage output is much higher, I hate "wasting" an Action (and doing nothing else in a round) to "activate" Celestial Revelation. What do you think?

I will have a look for the Oaths! Thanks! :)

[Nidgit]

If you're playing with newbies, I'd probably steer you away from Oath of Vengeance. That's a subclass that will absolutely steal the show, particularly when optimized. I'd encourage you to look for something that can grant extra boons to your party, which a number of the Oaths can do. If you're looking to be a powerful polearm-wielding tank, though, Oath of Conquest is very much where you want to be. Paladin Oaths are so flavorful that you should probably pick one or two you're interested in early on and build out from there.

For feats/ASIs, I find that Res(Con) isn't necessary on a Paladin since their Aura boosts all their saves. A +5 to +8 should be more than sufficient for more of your play and proficiency is a low priority. By the same measure, Paladins are actually pretty comfortable dumping Wisdom. Proficiency+Aura means their Wisdom saves will be excellent no matter what. All this goes to say that for Build 2, I'd probably rather drop Wis to 8 to round Con up to 14 and free up the ASI.

[windgate]

1H + Shield will have less attacks (because of the missing reach), lacks of damage and only has "only"+1 armor (compared to Defensive Style, what could be the golden mean). So, I would prefer one of the 2H variants.
Comparing the 2H variants on level 8, both have the same stats. Human has a CON saving throw (from Resilient). On the other hand, Aasimar offers A LOT of useful racial feats, what I prefer. And it offers much more RP-potential than Human.
All in all, I tend to go for the 2H-Aasimar-PA-Master.



Comparing a +1 AC to +damage might be counter intuitive and mathematically complicated. Damage scales linearly and avoidance via AC arguably doesn't.

A troll is a CR 5 creature (average difficulty for a level 5 party)
The troll has a +7 to hit.

Against a character in chain mail with no shield (or fighting Style) the troll has a 60% chance to hit you

Wearing a shield (instead of a 2h weapon): it drops to 50%
Add in Defensive fighting: 45%

This works out to be an almost 30 something percent reduction in average taken taken. You can also add in spells (blessing of faith) and Magic armor / shields to pump the reduction even further.

A good counter argument to all this is that a dead enemy cant attack you.

Edit: as for the race thing, it looks like you are choosing between a bunch of small bonuses you can use reliably or instead a decent defense again certain spells/effect with an unknown occurrence rate. Honestly I would just go with Assimar here, the features are something flavorful that you like and appreciate. The human feat is a boost to a dice roll.

[BeholderEyeDr]

You know your game and DM better than we do, so you're the expert here. That said, I've been playing a PAM paladin/bard for about a year now, and I would generally recommend the 1H+shield with dueling fighting style. The +2 damage means you're dealing more damage on average than a glaive, and I can't think of a situation where the glaive's reach would actually made a difference in play. In my experience, if you're not building specifically for the reach, e.g., PAM+sentinel shenanigans, it's mostly irrelevant. Glaive does allow for GWM down the road, but (a) think about when you'd realistically get that, and (b) consider how much you gain from it relative to getting something else. But that's my game: maybe in your combats, or in your group, the reach is a much bigger issue.

Regarding the choice of MotM aasimar vs. classic, I highly recommend the MotM version. The amount you gain from having your transformation be on a BA rather than an action is huge, and means that over the course of most fights, you actually end up ahead in terms of damage, despite the lower per-attack damage boost (nevermind what else you could have done with that action).

Finally, you can't really go wrong with your oath, especially since the optional feature Harness Divine Power gives you a universally good use for your channel divinity (moar spell slots = moar smites). Vengeance is obviously very good, with a good CD and good oath spells. But every oath has something great going for it, like crown's CD to control the battlefield and access to spirit guardians (the value of which can't be overstated). In my game we often have big combat areas so my paladin can't quite reach the enemies in one turn, leaving me a free turn to activate my devotion CD, at which point I just don't miss for that entire fight (devotion's aura is also a big FU to the DM when they try to charm you or your allies, which is just delightful). But at the end of the day, the base paladin is strong enough that you really can't go wrong.

[windgate]

Paladins are actually pretty comfortable dumping Wisdom. Proficiency+Aura means their Wisdom saves will be excellent no matter what. All this goes to say that for Build 2, I'd probably rather drop Wis to 8 to round Con up to 14 and free up the ASI.

I agree with this.

[windgate]

Going on tangent. If I were to take the resilient feat on a paladin for anything it would be for dexterity.

Forced movement while mounted subjects you to to a DC 10 dexterity saving throw. Failing that while riding a Pegasus in the air could flat out kill you.

[Corran]

On PAM. It's generally a very good feat for paladins.

From a character optimization perspective, how good excatly PAM is depends on your choice of oath. For example, conquest paladins have a bonus action use in spiritual weapon (for some reason), and they do need the CHA boosts and resilient con (or warcaster if multiclassing) enough, so that PAM gets a bit hit because of the competition and because of the bonus action overlap. It's still a good choice, but I'd probably pass on it (or at least seriously delay it), cause I would prefer to pick things that play better with the oath features while counting on spiritual weapon to fill the gap in action economy when necessary. Similary, with an oathbreaker while I'd very much want an off hand attack to keep the damage bonuses stacking, I'd probably choose twf instead of spending a feat on PAM, for one because I would be still after cha bumps and sentinel before even looking at anything else like PAM or concentration bosters, for second because I'd still face some bonus action dilemmas (eg animate dead), which dont make spending heavily for bonus action attacks ideal (since you can get them cheap with twf, while still allowing to switch to a shield for a more defensive approach which will often be necesary because of how AC bonuses synergize with disadvantage from frightened along with the need to often stick close to enemies in the hope of preventing them (sentinel -extra synergy thanks to IDS and undead minions who annoy enemies, most likely by trying to keep them inside your dreadful aura) escaping your dreadful aura.

From an optimization perspective, a lot depends on how you want or have to approach combat encounters. For example, I may know that with a STR based PAM paladin of some specific oath (say vengeance) I am better on paper compared to if I was dex based. But will that be true in practice? Maybe the party is very well suited to using a stealthy approach, or maybe the adventures that the dm is using really ask for a stealthy approach. In which case being a tin can and/or lacking a decent ranged attack may be not worth the 10 points or so of extra melee dpr that PAM would bring into the table. Or maybe I do stick with a STR approach with the mind of playing more of a backseat role when stealth is necessary, and then maybe instead of PAM I am focusing on something else (eg on a feat that gives me athletics expertise, which could be the main reason I chose to to remain STR based - cause lacking the means to grapple/shove as a party can have you missing on very good opportunities, or on things that would help me perform better when if I take off the heavy armor - cause no one took PWT, eg magic initiate for BB, chill touch and longstider for either a ranged or a hit and run apporach; or I play a small race and thus potentially miss on heavy weapons just so I can benefit from my mount's mobility more often).

==========================================

On reach.
With only one reaction per round it wont be all that often that a 10' reach will allow you more OA's attacks than a 5' reach would. At least that's not the most accurate way to compare these.

Let me put the comparison in a way that makes more sense to me. A 10' reach means that sometimes you will be able to hit an enemy with impunity. Since a whip is easily accessible, I'll further restrict this to doing it against enemies who are engaged with allies of yours (so it's not that they wont be attacking, just that they wont be attacking you). Is this good or bad. It depends on how well you are built to defend against attacks compared to that ally of yours who's taking the hits). How often will you be able to fight in 5' wide corridors while having a much better tank (or two) compared to you?

The other benefit is that a reach will allow you more often to hit and run. A little (or a lot) of redundancy here with your mount (depending on how often you can use it in combat), and moreover the value of you doing hit and runs depends on how your party is set up to exploit it. Are the enemies better off trying to chase after you instead of going after your allies, and you want them to do that? Then good. In general, if defensively you are a liability instead of an asset (and to determine that you have to know what your allies are capable of, ideally what the enemies are capable of but you cannot always now that), then the reach is good. If you are a defensive asset, then the reach has a far lower potential and you probably want a shield in your off hand (to further boost your defensive qualities).

==================================

Race
Some oaths/builds rely a lot on a few feats and on stat increases. Honestly most of them do. I'd probably stick with a vhuman/clinegae just for the extra feat and the faster feat progression. Maybe I'd be drawn to a race with darkvision if every other character had it and if I thought missing on it would be hurtful and if there was not another reliable way to get it (eg someone with access to the darkvision spell). Though I have not taken a good look at the new races, so there are probably some hidden gems there that might outpace the extra feat. Between aasimar and vhuman I'd go vhuman though.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Ask 10 different people how to build a Paly and you might get 10 different answers.

I personally like PAM + Spear and Shield + Dueling and it qualifies as 'good damage' which is what you wanted, in part because it uses your BA. It isn't max damage, but the trade off vs. a greatsword or something is better AC. If you get Sentinel you can trade out for a Pole Arm. A lot of your damage, when you need it anyway, comes from smites, so resourceless damage only needs to be 'good'. In my experience the best Palys we've had at our table have been the ones who have stayed alive, not the ones who tried to do more damage, which brings me to my 2nd point.

The best passive ability in the game (maybe the best ability discounting high level spells) is your 6th level aura. So bump Chr at least as much as Str. That aura the reason you're arguably the strongest tier 2 character, and you just need to be alive for the party to benefit.

In terms of Oath, there are a lot of good ones, so I'd recommend picking one you'd like to role-play. They all have different strengths, and again you won't have everyone agree on what's the best, so might as well enjoy your character.

[Angelalex242]

I'm a friend of sword and board...my damage is coming from smite, not raw physical. I do tend to have sentinel, however.

I'm also an oath of ancients types who's inevitably vuman with heavy armor master. I focus on defense.

[bbrown12]

First of all, thanks for all your detailed comments! Didn't expect so much input! Amazing!

I picked up a lot of tips, changing my (current) decisions in some ways. I'm gonna list up those comments and elaborate on them afterwards.


Comparing a +1 AC to +damage might be counter intuitive and mathematically complicated. Damage scales linearly and avoidance via AC arguably doesn't. [...]
as for the race thing. [...] Honestly I would just go with Assimar here, the features are something flavorful that you like and appreciate. The human feat is a boost to a dice roll.

I've been playing a PAM paladin/bard for about a year now, and I would generally recommend the 1H+shield with dueling fighting style. The +2 damage means you're dealing more damage on average than a glaive, and I can't think of a situation where the glaive's reach would actually made a difference in play.

Regarding the choice of MotM aasimar vs. classic, I highly recommend the MotM version. The amount you gain from having your transformation be on a BA rather than an action is huge, and means that over the course of most fights, you actually end up ahead in terms of damage, despite the lower per-attack damage boost (nevermind what else you could have done with that action).

From a character optimization perspective, how good excatly PAM is depends on your choice of oath. For example, conquest paladins have a bonus action use in spiritual weapon. [...] With only one reaction per round it wont be all that often that a 10' reach will allow you more OA's attacks than a 5' reach would. At least that's not the most accurate way to compare these.

A lot of your damage, when you need it anyway, comes from smites, so resourceless damage only needs to be 'good'. In my experience the best Palys we've had at our table have been the ones who have stayed alive, not the ones who tried to do more damage, which brings me to my 2nd point.


Unless you have a DM who only ever includes magic weapons specifically to fit a specific PC's needs you are probably going to see cool weapons a Paladin could use that don't jive with your particular feat/fighting style combo go by before you get a polearm upgrade.A lot of stuff you didn't plan for will happen and hyper-weapon-specific builds have a major drawback.

Okay, as said, that might change my mind, because there are just so many good reasons. Summerizing:


1H+Shield (Duelist) is more tanky (+2 Def) and the basic damage is only a bit lower. The big damage comes from smite.
PAM: I tend to NOT take it. It's just too gear dependend (sticking to spear) and I have to trade an ASI for it. Experiences from your feedback also said that the amount of reaction attacks doesn't make that much of a difference.
Race - Aasimar: I found out, I like the Class Features and the possibilities it offers for RP. Therefore, I tend to go for the MotM-Version (less damage, but using Celestial Revelation as as Bonus Action).


So, there is still the question which Oath to pick. I read through the recommended guide (https://blackcitadelrpg.com/paladin-oaths-ranked-5e/) and there are actually three Oaths I like:


Oath of Conquest: This is my favourite. The Fear Aura would fit perfectly with Celestial Revelation (Fallen Aasimar). Guided Strike is also nice. Spiritual Weapon gives me a good usage for my BA.
Oath of Vengeance: Nice spells, but all with Concentration. Furthermore, casting a spell means less Smites, what seem to be contraproductive.
Oath of the Watcher: Good Channel Divinity, the Initiative Bonus feels somehow like a flat passive bonus, that's very unexciting.

By the way: I also like the Oath of the Ancients (for the Aura), but it absolutely doesn't fit my idea of the Paladin I want to play.


Still some questions:


Bonus Action: What to do with my BA when not casting Spiritual Weapon? I have no experience, but it feels like there will be a lot of rounds where I lose my BA, because I have nothing to do with it.
Fear immune: We are playing "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus". I realized around 1/3 of the monsters are fear immune. Will that be a problem when going Conquest Oath? Or is that a good ratio?
Resource problems: Our DM rarely allows long rests in Dungeons. Usually, only when there is a save place of we are going out to rest. I imagine having huge resource problems when Smiting. Is that ususally a problem that Paladins have or is that something that is gone after a few levels?


Would be interested in your further thoughts! Thanks for all your help!

[Angelalex242]

For Avernus, the classic Oaths of Devotion and Ancients do carry some weight. Both of them can turn fiends with channel divinity.

Devotion also gets that permanent pro evil at 15, along with charm immunity. Ancients gets spell resistance, though that matters most for fighting spellcasters, which generally means humans, not devils. Ancients is the oath most designed for defense, and it still gets Misty Step.

[Nidgit]

For a sword-and-board Paladin, a common bonus action to take is the Shove action via Shield Master. Depending on how your DM reads the feat, it's something between free control and a shot at advantage every turn. Just be sure to take proficiency in Athletics or you'll have a low success rate. The other effects of Shield Master are ok-ish too.

If you're looking at Conquest Paladin, Hexblade is a very common dip to take because it allows you to fully prioritize Charisma. The extra short rest spell slots are also quite nice, as is the bonus action selection. Access to Hex, Shield, and Eldritch Blast for a ranged backup are all extremely helpful too. 1-2 levels is all you need but you're of course free to go for more.

A Hexblade dip is a little less common for other Paladin subclasses but it's never a bad choice.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

First of all, thanks for all your detailed comments! Didn't expect so much input! Amazing!

I picked up a lot of tips, changing my (current) decisions in some ways. I'm gonna list up those comments and elaborate on them afterwards.







Okay, as said, that might change my mind, because there are just so many good reasons. Summerizing:


1H+Shield (Duelist) is more tanky (+2 Def) and the basic damage is only a bit lower. The big damage comes from smite.
PAM: I tend to NOT take it. It's just too gear dependend (sticking to spear) and I have to trade an ASI for it. Experiences from your feedback also said that the amount of reaction attacks doesn't make that much of a difference.
Race - Aasimar: I found out, I like the Class Features and the possibilities it offers for RP. Therefore, I tend to go for the MotM-Version (less damage, but using Celestial Revelation as as Bonus Action).


So, there is still the question which Oath to pick. I read through the recommended guide (https://blackcitadelrpg.com/paladin-oaths-ranked-5e/) and there are actually three Oaths I like:


Oath of Conquest: This is my favourite. The Fear Aura would fit perfectly with Celestial Revelation (Fallen Aasimar). Guided Strike is also nice. Spiritual Weapon gives me a good usage for my BA.
Oath of Vengeance: Nice spells, but all with Concentration. Furthermore, casting a spell means less Smites, what seem to be contraproductive.
Oath of the Watcher: Good Channel Divinity, the Initiative Bonus feels somehow like a flat passive bonus, that's very unexciting.

By the way: I also like the Oath of the Ancients (for the Aura), but it absolutely doesn't fit my idea of the Paladin I want to play.


Still some questions:


Bonus Action: What to do with my BA when not casting Spiritual Weapon? I have no experience, but it feels like there will be a lot of rounds where I lose my BA, because I have nothing to do with it.
Fear immune: We are playing "Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus". I realized around 1/3 of the monsters are fear immune. Will that be a problem when going Conquest Oath? Or is that a good ratio?
Resource problems: Our DM rarely allows long rests in Dungeons. Usually, only when there is a save place of we are going out to rest. I imagine having huge resource problems when Smiting. Is that ususally a problem that Paladins have or is that something that is gone after a few levels?


Would be interested in your further thoughts! Thanks for all your help!

On the BA, I'm not sure you should view it as 'lost' if it's not used every round. In 5e a lot of classes don't have default Bonus Actions, and it's not assumed that all characters will take one every round. For most martials (unless you're picking up a 2nd weapon, which isn't usually optimal) that requires taking a feat. PAM or Shield Master are reliable. As you have said, Spiritual Weapon works as well; you're effectively trading the feat for using an expendable resource fairly regularly. Which is 'better' is probably table dependent, though at ours I'd lean towards the feat for a Paly because the number of encounters we have would burn limited spell slots in a hurry.
As the other poster said, Shield Master can be really good if you're permitted to shove before your attack; if not it's still OK, particularly if you have other melee martials.

[Angelalex242]

I should also point out the smite spells (Wrathful smite, et all) are actually bonus actions to cast. If you like stacking spell smites with divine smites, your bonus action has a purpose.

[PallyBass]

You can consider wielding a Double Bladed Scimitar (DBS) and use the Defense Fighting Style. When attacking with a DBS you can attack as a bonus action for 1d4 +Str.

A DBS does less damage than a Polearm with Polearm master feat, or dual wielding with the dual wielder fighting style but it has a niche advantage in that it does not need any feats or fighting styles to function. Thus DBS is good for a paladin build that wants to focus it's ASI to improve their Strength and Charisma to 20 asap.

It is also great for build versatility. DBS uses no feats so you are not committed to keep using it your whole adventuring career; you can switch later to a greatsword, a Polearm, or a sword and shield, you can be mounted with lance, or whatever suits your fancy. With the optional rules in "Tasha's cauldron of everything" I believe fighting styles can be retrained as well, so you can switch Defense fighting style for a new one at a later level.

[bbrown12]

Thanks again for all those tips!

DBS sounds nice and I like the versatility. But actually, it's again the less defense for a bit of more damage trade. And I can't imagine my paladin wielding a DBS. But thanks for the tip, tho!


For a sword-and-board Paladin, a common bonus action to take is the Shove action via Shield Master. [...]

If you're looking at Conquest Paladin, Hexblade is a very common dip to take because it allows you to fully prioritize Charisma. .

If I sum the other comments up, there are four things to consider for my Fallen Aasimar Conquest Paladin:


Dipping 1-2 levels Hexblade - When would be the ideal moment/level to do that?
Shield Mastery - Is it skip an ASI for it? It seems to collide with the Hexblade idea, too.
Fey Touched - Is it worth it? At least, it seems viable to combine it with Hexblade.
Harness Divine Power



Hexblade: Sounds awesome. Seems to fit my playstyle. Seems to fit into my idea of a "fallen (aasimar) paladin". Questions are:

When should I dip into it? I believe, there are two possibilities. First, going straight line to Paladin 7 (to get the auras) and dip into 1-2 levels afterwards. Or get the Hexblade right on level 2, follow Paladin until Paladin7/Hexblade1 and take another level of Hexblade on Level 9.
How much should I dumb STR? Also seems to be connected to the question, which Feat/ASI I pick on level 4. If I create a character with CON15/CHA17 I could boost both stats with an ASI. On the other hand, I could create only one odd CON/CHA stat (e. g. CON16/CHA17) and choose Fey-Touched or Resilient CON to boost one of the two.


Fey-Touched: Offers two extra spells and works well with Hexblade. But only makes sense when going with an odd CHA score. STR 12, DEX 10, CON 15+1, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2 on level 1 would allow this.

Shield Master: Like Crawford confirmed, it's possible to take the Bonus Action to shove between the first and the second attack of Extra Attack to get advantage. The other features are also nice. Core questions are:

Is it worth spending an ASI for these features?
Is it BETTER than Hexblade? Or: Is it worth NOT GOING Hexblade for this feat? Because I think it goes contrary to the idea of dumping STR.
Can it keep up with Resilient (CON) to boost an odd CON stat or Fey-Touched to boost an odd CHA stat.


Harness Divine Power: Regaining a spell slot sounds nice. But I have to relinquish Conquering Presents and Guided Strike for it, right? Or is it an extra feature?


Would be happy to hear your thoughts about those points. :)

Thanks in advance!

[Corran]

The hexblade level(s) offer you mainly 3 things.
1) Increased defense through the shield spell and some extra slots to fuel it (warcaster to bypass components if using a shield).
2) Ranged dpr and control though EB, hex, agonizing and repelling blast.
3) Improved OA's through BB and warcaster (though it loses some steam when working your level 7 aura).
bonus: CHA to melee attacks and damage is also pretty good, though it takes a while in levels for this impact to start being felt.

To get these things you have to delay your paladin progression, which at different levels it means you are delaying different things. As to when, it's better to figure it out during the campaign. Just keep an eye out for how much you are missing on those 3 things as you level up. Ideally you take the first hexblade level when you already have warcaster and not before, so I'd say the earliest you might want to take that first hexblade level would be at character level 5 and not before (conveniently, that's also when BB and EB power up). That would be a good point to ask yourself if the aforementioned benefits are important enough to your character to delay stuff like extra attack (dpr loss can be mitigated through BB somewhat, though extra attack helps with nova delivery), auras and important spells that your party may be counting on you to get (like aura of vitality and revivify). So yeah, start playing the game and when you are closing to level 5 you'll hopefully have a pretty good idea about what you need more.

The 2nd level of hexblade I think it's best to delay till you get more beams (so ideally taken at tier 3), though if you can put that extra control (repelling blast) to great use (eg because of allies creating harmful zones with spells), or if you really need the extra ranged dpr, or if you really need the extra boost to survivability through a second 1st level short rest rechargeable spell slot, you might as well rush it.

If I had to do it blindly, I'd pick hexblade 1 at character level 5 (warcaster at paladin 4), and I'd pick up the second level at character leve 12 (after 3rd level spells and aura of courage -which makes the fear spell party-fliendlyish). With the last conquest paly I played I had decided to delay the hexblade dip till after paladin 9 though, because the party was being challenged more attrition-wise (along with the occassional very deadly fight) than tactically, so spells like aura of vitality, fear and revivify seemed a lot more important than what the hexblade levels would give me (even though some castings of shield would certainly have been nice to have).

STR. I'd leave STR at 15, to avoid the penalty to speed (despite eventually getting access to a mount and to a good long range attack in EB) and to maintain a +1 (over STR 13 which is the minimum) bonus to STR checks (which you can combine wih hex and extra attack to shove and grapple).

Shield master has a lot of theoritical synergy due to two things. First, because frightened enemies roll their checks with disadvantage (hex can cover here as well). Secondly, because thanks to your aura of conquest, once you knock them prone they cannot get up unless they save against your frightened condition (which if caused by the fear spell, it likely means until you lose concentration or until they somehow break line of sight). How good is this in practice? Not too greatly unless you have a team with a lot of melee heavy hitters (ideally GWM's) who dont play very tactically. Best case scenario for it is that you have a summoner who can summon in mass. In this case the value of shield master is that it can combine with the summons to allow the pc's to bring down frightened prone targets very quickly. That can easily be an overkill (and an expenssive one at that when it comes to resources), since frighened enemies stuck in your aura have everything going against them tacticaly, though it's a combination you can use to take out foes quickly and efficiently if the fight is extremelly deadly and this combo (using summons to kill targets you made vulnerable to them) is one way to punch through enemy HP at an otherwise very difficult and still dangerous encounter.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

My view on the Hexblade dip is that The Reason to do this on a Paly is to make your character SAD and it's basically the reason this is widely considered OP. The other stuff is a pretty fair trade off for the lost Paly level(s).

In practice this allows you to start with a 15 Str and leave it there, so at character generation you're already up 1/2 ASI vs other characters who will likely start with a 16 Str. Where does this point go? Probably Con.
As you level this means 2 things:
1) ASIs spent on Chr are worth almost twice what they are on other Paladins given that they impact most of what you are going to be doing. You'll probably get more out of maxing Chr than any Feat, with the probable exception of 1 Feat spent to sort your fighting style as discussed upthread.
2) Because your Str is pretty average you don't want to be attacking with it for long, so it's one of the builds I'd consider breaking my rule of thumb of trying to get to level 5 in the primary class first. Hex 1 is strong otherwise, so delaying extra attack by 1 level isn't the end of the world. Certainly, once you hit 18 Chr the 2 point difference to attack is going to be noticeable.

[Person_Man]

Looks good as written. I suggest looking at Find Steed/Find Greater Steed (Xanthar's Guide to Everything), which is arguably their best spell.

[Nidgit]

Worth noting that some DMs will allow you to ignore the STR multiclassing requirement if you instead meet it with DEX. If you want to go heavy armor, set Strength to 15 and forget it. If you're happy with medium armor, ask your DM about waiving the STR requirement and put a 14 in DEX.

Regardless, if you're going Hexblade you should skip Shield Master. Without investing in Strength or Expertise in Athletics it simply won't be succeeding enough to be worth it. Warcaster and Fey Touched are much better in that scenario.

As for when to take your Warlock levels, it's largely a function of the difference between your Charisma and your physical attacking stat. I would generally suggest taking your first Hexblade level as your 4th or 6th level, as Paladin 5 offering a second attack and second level spells is too good to delay. The second Hexblade level can come wherever, potentially after you hit Paladin 7 or 8 (depending on how badly you need the ASI). Hexblade 2 adds a lot of nice versatility and damage but is ultimately a lot less urgent for the build.

Harness Divine Power you can save for right before short rests as a little extra bonus recovery if you have still it. Your CDs are typically too good to pass up otherwise.

[bbrown12]

The hexblade level(s) offer you mainly 3 things.
1) Increased defense through the shield spell and some extra slots to fuel it (warcaster to bypass components if using a shield).
2) Ranged dpr and control though EB, hex, agonizing and repelling blast.
3) Improved OA's through BB and warcaster (though it loses some steam when working your level 7 aura).
bonus: CHA to melee attacks and damage is also pretty good, though it takes a while in levels for this impact to start being felt.

My view on the Hexblade dip is that The Reason to do this on a Paly is to make your character SAD and it's basically the reason this is widely considered OP. The other stuff is a pretty fair trade off for the lost Paly level(s).

In practice this allows you to start with a 15 Str and leave it there, so at character generation you're already up 1/2 ASI vs other characters who will likely start with a 16 Str. Where does this point go? Probably Con.
As you level this means 2 things:
1) ASIs spent on Chr are worth almost twice what they are on other Paladins given that they impact most of what you are going to be doing. You'll probably get more out of maxing Chr than any Feat, with the probable exception of 1 Feat spent to sort your fighting style as discussed upthread.
2) Because your Str is pretty average you don't want to be attacking with it for long, so it's one of the builds I'd consider breaking my rule of thumb of trying to get to level 5 in the primary class first. Hex 1 is strong otherwise, so delaying extra attack by 1 level isn't the end of the world. Certainly, once you hit 18 Chr the 2 point difference to attack is going to be noticeable.

Wow, thanks for these AWESOME answers. I am just finding back to the game after a few years (and there are actually a lot of things I forgot about). This explanations really help A LOT! :)

So, I hope, I got everything right:

Dipping Warlock is absolutely worth it. The cantrips offer a lot of flexibility and being able to attack with CHA is insane imo.
Warlock requires Warcaster. Tbh, I first thought "oh, no. I am wasting an ASI for multiclassing." But advantage on saving throws to maintain Concentration is actually pretty awesome for Paladin spells/buffs. And being able to cast a spell as an AoO is awesome as well.
I need "only" STR 15 - just enough to wear a full plate. Because of this, Shield Master is out.
Fey-Touched might be a very strong feat to get rid of an odd CHA score later in the leveling progression.




Worth noting that some DMs will allow you to ignore the STR multiclassing requirement if you instead meet it with DEX. If you want to go heavy armor, set Strength to 15 and forget it. If you're happy with medium armor, ask your DM about waiving the STR requirement and put a 14 in DEX.
I am not quite sure, which STR/DEX requirements you are talking about. Warlock needs CHA 13 (not STR).


Harness Divine Power you can save for right before short rests as a little extra bonus recovery if you have still it. Your CDs are typically too good to pass up otherwise.
If I get it right, Harness Divine Power replaces the two CDs I get from Conquest, isn't it?



What do you think about this build?

Race: Fallen Aasimar (CHA+2, STR+1, Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation)
Classes: Paladin (18) / Hexblade (2)
Oath: Conquest (CD: Mass Fear, Guided Strike, Fear Aura, Spiritual Weapon)
Abilities: STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2 or STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2
Feats: War Caster, Fey-Touched (maybe)
Fighting Style: Dueling Style with Longsword + Shield
Background: Faction Agent
Skills: Athletics, Intimidation, Persuation, Insight?
Campaign: Descent to Avernus

Progression:
Level 1: Paladin (1) - Lay on Hands, Divine Sense
Level 2: Paladin (2) - Fighting Style: Dueling, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
Level 3: Paladin (3) - Oath of Conquest, Disease Immunity
Level 4: Paladin (4) - ASI: War Caster
Level 5: Hexblade (1) - CHA based attacks, Hexblade Curse, 1 Spell Slot, +2 Spells (Shield, Cause Fear), +2 Cantrips (Booming Blade, Eldrich Blast)
Level 6: Paladin (5) - Extra Attack, 2nd-level Spells
Level 7: Paladin (6) - Aura of Protection
Level 8: Paladin (7) - Aura of Conquest
Level 9: Paladin (8) - ASI: Fey-Touched (CHA 18) or ASI: CON/CHA (depends on abilities)
Level 10: Paladin (9) - 3rd-level Spells
...


Questions:


Would you go CON 14 (WIS 10) or CON 15 (WIS 8)? Sometimes an odd score is useful when finding a magic item. Otherwise, when going CON 14 + CHA 17, I could use my second ASI to take Fey-Touched and raise CHA to 18 + getting an additional spell slot + two spells.
Are the chosen Warlock Spells reasonable?
Which fourth skill would you take? I thought about insight, though my character doesn't have the highest WIS score.
There are two version of the Aasimar (VGtM and MotM). They somehow differ in the Usage of Healing Hands and Celestial Revelation. Which one would you take?

VGtM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an ACTION, but deals much more Damage (equals Character Level). Healing Hands heals 1 HP per Character Level.
MotM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an BONUS ACTION, but deals less deals Damage (equals Proficiency Bonus). Healing Hands heals 1D4 equals to you Proficiency Bonus.




Would be interested in your opinions! Thanks in advance! :)

[diplomancer]

One thing I don't think anyone touched upon, but might be relevant. Defense is the most flexible of fighting styles. If you go with duelling or great weapon style and find a sweet magical weapon of the other style you will feel pretty bad. That said, if you do go with damage styles, I'd suggest duelling, and bring along whips and lances for those moments you want to go for hit and run tactics.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Wow, thanks for these AWESOME answers. I am just finding back to the game after a few years (and there are actually a lot of things I forgot about). This explanations really help A LOT! :)

So, I hope, I got everything right:

Dipping Warlock is absolutely worth it. The cantrips offer a lot of flexibility and being able to attack with CHA is insane imo.
Warlock requires Warcaster. Tbh, I first thought "oh, no. I am wasting an ASI for multiclassing." But advantage on saving throws to maintain Concentration is actually pretty awesome for Paladin spells/buffs. And being able to cast a spell as an AoO is awesome as well.
I need "only" STR 15 - just enough to wear a full plate. Because of this, Shield Master is out.
Fey-Touched might be a very strong feat to get rid of an odd CHA score later in the leveling progression.




I am not quite sure, which STR/DEX requirements you are talking about. Warlock needs CHA 13 (not STR).


If I get it right, Harness Divine Power replaces the two CDs I get from Conquest, isn't it?



What do you think about this build?

Race: Fallen Aasimar (CHA+2, STR+1, Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation)
Classes: Paladin (18) / Hexblade (2)
Oath: Conquest (CD: Mass Fear, Guided Strike, Fear Aura, Spiritual Weapon)
Abilities: STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 15, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2 or STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2
Feats: War Caster, Fey-Touched (maybe)
Fighting Style: Dueling Style with Longsword + Shield
Background: Faction Agent
Skills: Athletics, Intimidation, Persuation, Insight?
Campaign: Descent to Avernus

Progression:
Level 1: Paladin (1) - Lay on Hands, Divine Sense
Level 2: Paladin (2) - Fighting Style: Dueling, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
Level 3: Paladin (3) - Oath of Conquest, Disease Immunity
Level 4: Paladin (4) - ASI: War Caster
Level 5: Hexblade (1) - CHA based attacks, Hexblade Curse, 1 Spell Slot, +2 Spells (Shield, Cause Fear), +2 Cantrips (Booming Blade, Eldrich Blast)
Level 6: Paladin (5) - Extra Attack, 2nd-level Spells
Level 7: Paladin (6) - Aura of Protection
Level 8: Paladin (7) - Aura of Conquest
Level 9: Paladin (8) - ASI: Fey-Touched (CHA 18) or ASI: CON/CHA (depends on abilities)
Level 10: Paladin (9) - 3rd-level Spells
...


Questions:


Would you go CON 14 (WIS 10) or CON 15 (WIS 8)? Sometimes an odd score is useful when finding a magic item. Otherwise, when going CON 14 + CHA 17, I could use my second ASI to take Fey-Touched and raise CHA to 18 + getting an additional spell slot + two spells.
Are the chosen Warlock Spells reasonable?
Which fourth skill would you take? I thought about insight, though my character doesn't have the highest WIS score.
There are two version of the Aasimar (VGtM and MotM). They somehow differ in the Usage of Healing Hands and Celestial Revelation. Which one would you take?

VGtM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an ACTION, but deals much more Damage (equals Character Level). Healing Hands heals 1 HP per Character Level.
MotM: Celestial Revelation is cast as an BONUS ACTION, but deals less deals Damage (equals Proficiency Bonus). Healing Hands heals 1D4 equals to you Proficiency Bonus.




Would be interested in your opinions! Thanks in advance! :)

Hmm, I'm not really in agreement with the Feat selection. War Caster isn't a need; you can always use your Warlock spell slots out of combat, verbal spells, or as Smites. Is WC worth it? Maybe, but I think no. You would have the flexibility of using more spells in combat. As per the concentration saves, keep in mind that by P6 you're tacking your Chr onto all saves, so if you've got Chr to 18 by this point and Con is 14/15, you succeed on all damage to 21 points on a 4. Chr 20: you succeed on a 3.

Shield Master: As the other poster mentioned it isn't as good without a higher Str or expertise in Athletics. But does that mean it's not worth it? The difference between a 15 Str and an 18 Str means 10% of the time this difference will be meaningful. Given an average adventuring day with roughly 20 rounds and 20 Bonus Actions that's 2 times per day that this won't work vs. an 18 Str. Yes, Expertise basically breaks bounded accuracy and gets some characters into auto success territory occasionally with SM, but I don't think you need to be there for it to be worth taking. Without it, what are you going to do with those 20 BAs?

My summary would be pump Chr as priority (particularly if you can start with a 17 then get Fey Touched) and figure out a fighting style that uses your BA regularly.

[CTurbo]

I may be a little late to this, but here's my 2 cents.

I say stick with your original idea and go full class Fallen Aasimar Conquest Paladin with Polearm Master at level 4.

Start 16 Str and Cha and plan on bumping +2 Cha at level 8. Take the Defense style.

Gauntlets of Ogre Power are uncommon so you should easily be able to get your hands on them at some point in the first few levels. They automatically set your Str at 19.
Belt of Hill Giant Str is rare and shouldn't be that hard to find at some point either. It sets your Str score to 21.
At higher levels, you could probably get one of the better Giant belts that could set your Str score even higher. (23,25,26 etc)

So skip the Hexblade dip. Paladins get great features at nearly every level and you'll want them ASAP.

PAM is an amazing feat for Paladins especially when you hit level 11 when ALL of your attacks deal an extra 1d8 damage. PAM is especially strong on Conquest Paladins.

Remember, your 7th level Aura sets any creature's speed that is Frightened of you to 0. They can still attack you if you get in their reach. PAM lets you attack them from 10ft away so you can avoid their reach.

Shield Master is also a great feat for a Conquest Pally. If you knock a creature prone that is frightened of you, they cannot get back up because their speed is 0.

So one handed spear, shield, PAM, and Shield Master isn't a bad idea at all. Now you have 2 great Bonus Action options to choose from and you only love -2 Cha at level 12(18 vs 20)

Damage between 2 handed PAM and no shield is very similar to the 1 handed spear + shield + Dueling style thanks to the Dueling's +2 damage per hit and this option has a +1 AC benefit although you do lose that nice +10 reach.

[RazorChain]

I would actually dip 2 levels into hexblade to take Eldritch mind and for a second spell slot. Now you can skip warcaster as you can just mount your holy symbol into your shield. You have 2 slots for shield per short rest to make you tanky as the shield spell uses only verbal component. And you can use your second invocation on agonizing blast or some utility. You could also choose Hex and just cast it at the start of a battle if you aren't using spiritual weapon and then you draw your blade as a part of your attack action and hex lasts for an hour if you don't lose concentration. Remember you can also use your hexblade spell slots to cast your paladin spells....and for paladin smites

[Nidgit]

I am not quite sure, which STR/DEX requirements you are talking about. Warlock needs CHA 13 (not STR).


If I get it right, Harness Divine Power replaces the two CDs I get from Conquest, isn't it?
Paladin has multiclass requirements of CHA and STR 13, which means you also need to meet those to multiclass out of it. But again, those may be waived with permission.

Harness Divine Power is an additional Channel Divinity option available to all Paladins. It doesn't replace either subclass CD but it does use the same resource, so it's nice as a back up option.

[bbrown12]

Hmm, I'm not really in agreement with the Feat selection. War Caster isn't a need; you can always use your Warlock spell slots out of combat, verbal spells, or as Smites.

Thanks for your answer! But if I am not wrong, Shield+Board Paladins also require the War Caster Feat, don't they? I mean, most Spells have somatic components. Without War Caster, they wouldn't even be able to cast Cure Wounds while in combat (holding my shield + sword). Or did I miss something?


I may be a little late to this, but here's my 2 cents.

I say stick with your original idea and go full class Fallen Aasimar Conquest Paladin with Polearm Master at level 4.

Start 16 Str and Cha and plan on bumping +2 Cha at level 8. Take the Defense style.
The main question seems to be: Is dipping Warlock worth it? Corran summed it up quite nicely:


The hexblade level(s) offer you mainly 3 things.
1) Increased defense through the shield spell and some extra slots to fuel it (warcaster to bypass components if using a shield).
2) Ranged dpr and control though EB, hex, agonizing and repelling blast.
3) Improved OA's through BB and warcaster (though it loses some steam when working your level 7 aura).
bonus: CHA to melee attacks and damage is also pretty good, though it takes a while in levels for this impact to start being felt.

I even weight what he called a "bonus" (to focus on CHA) as a main benefit. To me, this sounds just fantastic.
In addition, having War Caster allows me to cast Booming Blade on an AoO what somehow replaces Sentinel (at least halfway).

I agree, that taking a second level of Warlock would delay the Paladin levels just too much (at least until level 12). But without taking a 2nd Warlock level, Adv. on CON-saves from War Caster becomes even more valuable.

Honestly, it's still hard for me to make a decision:


PAM and Shield Master are nice Feats, but they require a STR based Paladin. So, taking a warlock level excludes this option. And the advantage of extra reaction attacks and shoving creatures were discussed as "not too greatly unless you have a team with a lot of melee heavy hitters".
Furthermore, PAM limits the selection of weapons I can use ("Oh, I found a nice +1 Longsword...damn...why isn't it a Spear?")
Going Defensive Style with a two-handed weapon makes PAM more useful. But like a lot of people in this thread wrote: The Paladin's main damage comes from Smites.


In the end, I need to find out whether or not:
a) it's worth (for me) dipping one level into Warlock or
b) going a STR-based Paladin without.

It seems, both ways are viable and my fear of "wasting" Bonus Actions seem to be unfounded as the Paladin seems to get more and more options to use his BA while leveling (regardless of dipping into Warlock or not).

At the moment, I tend to go for Warlock with War Caster. It seems reasonable choice for my Fallen Aasimar. But I would be interested in your further opinions tho. And I still have a feeling that I missed something on the Paladin Spellcasting ability. Because I am wondering that nobody told me that wearing a shield + sword would require War Caster. If this is true, dipping Warlock becomes even stronger in my opinion.

Thanks for all your support again!

[Angelalex242]

Paladins use a holy symbol, and most of them put their symbol on their shields. Don't worry about War Caster unless you're super worried about concentration effects that last longer than the bonus action it takes to put a smite spell up.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thanks for your answer! But if I am not wrong, Shield+Board Paladins also require the War Caster Feat, don't they? I mean, most Spells have somatic components. Without War Caster, they wouldn't even be able to cast Cure Wounds while in combat (holding my shield + sword). Or did I miss something?


The main question seems to be: Is dipping Warlock worth it? Corran summed it up quite nicely:



I even weight what he called a "bonus" (to focus on CHA) as a main benefit. To me, this sounds just fantastic.
In addition, having War Caster allows me to cast Booming Blade on an AoO what somehow replaces Sentinel (at least halfway).

I agree, that taking a second level of Warlock would delay the Paladin levels just too much (at least until level 12). But without taking a 2nd Warlock level, Adv. on CON-saves from War Caster becomes even more valuable.

Honestly, it's still hard for me to make a decision:


PAM and Shield Master are nice Feats, but they require a STR based Paladin. So, taking a warlock level excludes this option. And the advantage of extra reaction attacks and shoving creatures were discussed as "not too greatly unless you have a team with a lot of melee heavy hitters".
Furthermore, PAM limits the selection of weapons I can use ("Oh, I found a nice +1 Longsword...damn...why isn't it a Spear?")
Going Defensive Style with a two-handed weapon makes PAM more useful. But like a lot of people in this thread wrote: The Paladin's main damage comes from Smites.


In the end, I need to find out whether or not:
a) it's worth (for me) dipping one level into Warlock or
b) going a STR-based Paladin without.

It seems, both ways are viable and my fear of "wasting" Bonus Actions seem to be unfounded as the Paladin seems to get more and more options to use his BA while leveling (regardless of dipping into Warlock or not).

At the moment, I tend to go for Warlock with War Caster. It seems reasonable choice for my Fallen Aasimar. But I would be interested in your further opinions tho. And I still have a feeling that I missed something on the Paladin Spellcasting ability. Because I am wondering that nobody told me that wearing a shield + sword would require War Caster. If this is true, dipping Warlock becomes even stronger in my opinion.

Thanks for all your support again!

I believe RAW if a spell has a material and somatic component you're considered to be using the same hand (shield emblem for Paly) for both. It's a little screwy if the spell has somatic, but not material; then I believe you're supposed to have a hand free or Warcaster. However A) this is a very small amount of spells, and B) I'd think it's the rare table that doesn't hand-wave this.

[diplomancer]

I believe RAW if a spell has a material and somatic component you're considered to be using the same hand (shield emblem for Paly) for both. It's a little screwy if the spell has somatic, but not material; then I believe you're supposed to have a hand free or Warcaster. However A) this is a very small amount of spells, and B) I'd think it's the rare table that doesn't hand-wave this.

This. One other thing to consider for multiclassed characters is that technically you can use your shield as a focus for your Paladin spells, not for your warlock spells... though many tables will handwave that as well.

[Frogreaver]

I've been thinking about this Paladin today.

Glory Paladin with PAM, Mobile and using a polearm.

Ideally you would start as variant human with PAM. At level 4 you would take mobile. Basic tactic would be to move to an enemy and hit them hard then back off so they have to walk into your reach and grant you a bonus action attack. Repeat as often as you like. You would take defensive style. If you find a strong magical spear you can swap to spear and shield. You have your channel divinity to give you a ton of temp hp if you start to get low.

At level 7 your move speed increases to 50ft. With mobile and this speed you will usually be able to bounce around the battlefield to the priority target.

At level 9 you gain access to haste for even more movement speed shenanigans. On paper you won't be the most damaging Paladin, but you'll often get a reaction attack in addition to a bonus attack. You have the mobility to reach priority targets or to fall back to your allies if they need your help.

[Angelalex242]

Polearm should always be paired with sentinel first, I think. You want that combo up first before mobile.

[diplomancer]

I've been thinking about this Paladin today.

Glory Paladin with PAM, Mobile and using a polearm.

Ideally you would start as variant human with PAM. At level 4 you would take mobile. Basic tactic would be to move to an enemy and hit them hard then back off so they have to walk into your reach and grant you a bonus action attack. Repeat as often as you like. You would take defensive style. If you find a strong magical spear you can swap to spear and shield. You have your channel divinity to give you a ton of temp hp if you start to get low.

At level 7 your move speed increases to 50ft. With mobile and this speed you will usually be able to bounce around the battlefield to the priority target.

At level 9 you gain access to haste for even more movement speed shenanigans. On paper you won't be the most damaging Paladin, but you'll often get a reaction attack in addition to a bonus attack. You have the mobility to reach priority targets or to fall back to your allies if they need your help.

I'd say it's better to take Mounted Combatant to make sure your mount stays alive; much better mobility than Mobile feat, unless your game heavily features dungeons.

[stoutstien]

I'd say it's better to take Mounted Combatant to make sure your mount stays alive; much better mobility than Mobile feat, unless your game heavily features dungeons.
Very DM dependent. the best options for find steed are soft targets with saves even with auras buffing them. I've found that mounted combatant has roughly ~25% up time. To increase this you need to invest in magical items (DM dependent) and barding (DM dependent). Greater steed changes this a bit but that's deep in the class and game.

Mobile isn't as much of as impact but it has nearly a 100% uptime. For most pallys that extra 10 ft is enough to prevent losing an action doing something you rather not waste it on. If you get a hold of expeditious retreat from some source you can actually be faster than a mount if DT is involved.

If course if you are a glory pally you can just super Mario double jump around the DT as well.

[diplomancer]

Very DM dependent. the best options for find steed are soft targets with saves even with auras buffing them. I've found that mounted combatant has roughly ~25% up time. To increase this you need to invest in magical items (DM dependent) and barding (DM dependent). Greater steed changes this a bit but that's deep in the class and game.

Mobile isn't as much of as impact but it has nearly a 100% uptime. For most pallys that extra 10 ft is enough to prevent losing an action doing something you rather not waste it on. If you get a hold of expeditious retreat from some source you can actually be faster than a mount if DT is involved.

If course if you are a glory pally you can just super Mario double jump around the DT as well.

Mounted Combatant really helps, though yes, if the DM uses a lot of non-Dex saves for damage it'd be different. But if he suddenly starts using those after you take Mounted Combatant, that'd be the bad type of metagaming.

[stoutstien]

Mounted Combatant really helps, though yes, if the DM uses a lot of non-Dex saves for damage it'd be different. But if he suddenly starts using those after you take Mounted Combatant, that'd be the bad type of metagaming.

Eh one reason I use a mix of save types is to prevent this issue all together. If it's considered metagaming for the DM to change save types to work around this then it's also metagaming for the player to choose a decision based on that information. The whole meta game paradox is silly and easy to prevent by diversifying your gameplay experience.
Also even with advantage on dex saved, the damage reduction/avoidance, and a +3 Cha boost (seeing how they took mounted and probably one weapon feat) that NPC you are riding is still going to get hammered by most Dex based saves. Hence the ~25% up time. To make mounted combat work in game where it's actually going to make any difference you need to invest a lot to make it have any return.

[diplomancer]

Eh one reason I use a mix of save types is to prevent this issue all together. If it's considered metagaming for the DM to change save types to work around this then it's also metagaming for the player to choose a decision based on that information. The whole meta game paradox is silly and easy to prevent by diversifying your gameplay experience.
Also even with advantage on dex saved, the damage reduction/avoidance, and a +3 Cha boost (seeing how they took mounted and probably one weapon feat) that NPC you are riding is still going to get hammered by most Dex based saves. Hence the ~25% up time. To make mounted combat work in game where it's actually going to make any difference you need to invest a lot to make it have any return.

As you've said, DM dependant. When I played one Paladin with the Mounted Combatant feat, it was closer to 80% up time; when I played without it, about 50% (though I had other things to protect it; Sanctuary and Interception FS).

[stoutstien]

As you've said, DM dependant. When I played one Paladin with the Mounted Combatant feat, it was closer to 80% up time; when I played without it, about 50% (though I had other things to protect it; Sanctuary and Interception FS).

Both of those are actually good examples of extra resources and down time. Spending spell slots to keep it alive is a steep investment for a half caster and actions are increasingly important as difficulty goes up. So while it gives you the ability to hit and run or have an additional 20 ft of movement mobile gives you the same effect with a 20 ft decrease of movement.

Im not saying it's bad. It's a solid option but the net difference between the two is smaller than most realize.

[diplomancer]

Both of those are actually good examples of extra resources and down time. Spending spell slots to keep it alive is a steep investment for a half caster and actions are increasingly important as difficulty goes up. So while it gives you the ability to hit and run or have an additional 20 ft of movement mobile gives you the same effect with a 20 ft decrease of movement.

Im not saying it's bad. It's a solid option but the net difference between the two is smaller than most realize.

Sanctuary is a bonus action that I cast on myself and get protection for an extra round, saving a LOT of hit points. Not bad that it doubles up to the steed. But this is more useful for those without the Feat.

And it's not only 20ft of movement, specially with a reach weapon, as your Steed can easily Dash in and out of combat in that case. I had a lot of fun with my Halfling with a lance on a clawfoot raptor.

[bbrown12]

I believe RAW if a spell has a material and somatic component you're considered to be using the same hand (shield emblem for Paly) for both. It's a little screwy if the spell has somatic, but not material; then I believe you're supposed to have a hand free or Warcaster. However A) this is a very small amount of spells, and B) I'd think it's the rare table that doesn't hand-wave this.
Ah, I knew there was a smart solution for this. (As I said, I am a returning player and just didn't remember how it worked). Thanks for the tip! Indeed, that makes War Caster a bit less useful (as it would be if Paladin would also need it for casting).

Okay, quick and dirty:

1. Race:
Fallen Aasimar is set, because of RP. I really like the idea of a "fallen Paladin" and the race offers a lot of exciting details. But still not sure, if I should go for the VGtM or MotM variant.


2. I prefer Shield & Board.


3. Should I dip Warlock?
I like dipping Warlock, because Hexblade Curse is cool. Booming Blade boosts my AoO. Eldritch Blast offers nice ranged possibilities. And using CHA for melee attacks makes any STR score beyond 15 redundant. Sounds awesome.


4. War Caster
My DM will require War Caster for Warlock casting. I won't be able to cast Booming Blade, Hex, Shield, Eldritch Blast otherwise. Could you imagine dipping Warlock without those Cantrips? Is it worth it?


5. Feat choices:

Polearm Master*OUT* offers a straight damage boost through additional attacks with Bonus Action + AoO when a target enters reach. Though, it makes me dependend from a Spear (while wearing a shield).
Sentinel *OUT* benefits A LOT from reach (more allies around, more reaction attacks). Maybe for a Human Variant build combined with PAM. Doesn't seem to be worth it otherwise.
Shield Master would be stronger with higher STR, although it seems still an "okay"-choice when taking STR 15. With Extra Attack I can shove between attacks for a chance of Advantage on the second attack. On the other hand, we have spellcasters and ranged DPS that suffer from DisAdv on ranged attacks. So, I make half my party suffer from benefits I get while pushing enemies prone.
Last but not least, Fey Touched (CHA) is a nice Feat to get rid of an odd CHA score.


==> All of them seem to have disadvantages. Fey Touched is interesting for the beginning. But as I said, if I go Warlock, I need War Caster on my first ASI or go without Warlock spellcasting.


6. Conquest Oath the right choice?
The more I think about it, the more I am not sure if the choice is as good as it seems. How often will I be able to get a use of the fear stun aura? Do I play the right campaign for it (Descent to Avernus)?


Thanks for all your support!

[CTurbo]

Ah, I knew there was a smart solution for this. (As I said, I am a returning player and just didn't remember how it worked). Thanks for the tip! Indeed, that makes War Caster a bit less useful (as it would be if Paladin would also need it for casting).

Okay, quick and dirty:

1. Race:
Fallen Aasimar is set, because of RP. I really like the idea of a "fallen Paladin" and the race offers a lot of exciting details. But still not sure, if I should go for the VGtM or MotM variant.


2. I prefer Shield & Board.


3. Should I dip Warlock?
I like dipping Warlock, because Hexblade Curse is cool. Booming Blade boosts my AoO. Eldritch Blast offers nice ranged possibilities. And using CHA for melee attacks makes any STR score beyond 15 redundant. Sounds awesome.


4. War Caster
My DM will require War Caster for Warlock casting. I won't be able to cast Booming Blade, Hex, Shield, Eldritch Blast otherwise. Could you imagine dipping Warlock without those Cantrips? Is it worth it?


5. Feat choices:

Polearm Master*OUT* offers a straight damage boost through additional attacks with Bonus Action + AoO when a target enters reach. Though, it makes me dependend from a Spear (while wearing a shield).
Sentinel *OUT* benefits A LOT from reach (more allies around, more reaction attacks). Maybe for a Human Variant build combined with PAM. Doesn't seem to be worth it otherwise.
Shield Master would be stronger with higher STR, although it seems still an "okay"-choice when taking STR 15. With Extra Attack I can shove between attacks for a chance of Advantage on the second attack. On the other hand, we have spellcasters and ranged DPS that suffer from DisAdv on ranged attacks. So, I make half my party suffer from benefits I get while pushing enemies prone.
Last but not least, Fey Touched (CHA) is a nice Feat to get rid of an odd CHA score.


==> All of them seem to have disadvantages. Fey Touched is interesting for the beginning. But as I said, if I go Warlock, I need War Caster on my first ASI or go without Warlock spellcasting.


6. Conquest Oath the right choice?
The more I think about it, the more I am not sure if the choice is as good as it seems. How often will I be able to get a use of the fear stun aura? Do I play the right campaign for it (Descent to Avernus)?


Thanks for all your support!


1. I like Fallen Aasimar for a Paladin. Perfect stat increases and very flavorful especially for a Conquest Pally.


2. A Paladin that uses a shield is going to be great whether you use The Dueling or Defense Fighting Style.


3. A Warlock dip is very strong on a Paladin for all the reasons mentioned above. I would personally skip the Warlock levels this time for reason I've already mentioned above. Straight Paladin is EXTREMELY strong as is. You don't need Warlock levels.


4. I do not like Warcaster on Paladins. Paladins don't typically need Warcaster and there are many other better feats that you could take.


5. PAM is still the best. PAM offers you the option of using a staff or spear with shield, but also opens up the opportunity for you to drop the shield for the bigger reach weapon if/when you want.
Shield Master is strong, but I really only like it on Conquests.
Sentinel is always great.
Fey Touched is good, but if you can take the Menacing feat, it's much better for Conquests.
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/feat:menacing


6. With all the changes you're considering compared to your original idea, I'd probably take Vengeance instead of Conquest. If you do still want Conquest, and also Warlock dip, Archfey is probably the better fit since it offers yet another fear feature.

[Angelalex242]

Sentinel works fine without reach. I have often used it thus. Your paladin is probably getting into melee anyway so he can smite things. Sentinel lets him smite things trying to run away to keep them from running. Also prevents rogues from disengaging, or other such things, because movement 0 if you hit something.

The point of using polearm master with it is to poke something from 10 feet away so it can't close to melee with you, causing the enemy to lose his turn if he has a 5 foot reach.

[Frogreaver]

I'd say it's better to take Mounted Combatant to make sure your mount stays alive; much better mobility than Mobile feat, unless your game heavily features dungeons.

If the game features any indoor environment where battles take place then mounts are essentially useless in those environments. It's not just dungeons. Your game also doesn't have to heavily feature such environments. I wouldn't call 1 out of ever 3 combats being indoors as heavily featuring indoor encounters, but it would be a significant consideration on the usefulness of mounted combatant vs mobile.

IMO, the biggest benefit of mobile with PAM is using it to position yourself to trigger more PAM reaction attacks. Especially considering you can attack any enemy that has engaged you, back off 10ft without taking an OA (or 5ft if using a spear) and force them to take a reaction attack to reengage you. That's powerful and it works in both indoor and outdoor environments.

[Eldariel]

I personally like two-handed but instead of Defense or GWF (both of which are kinda meh), I like Superior Technique: Precision Attack if you're going GWM too. Can even try to fit in Martial Adept for Ambush and e.g. Riposte (though with PAM you don't really need that) or Trip Attack for a second die and some additional options on short rest recovery. Alternatively, Blind-Fighting is really good if you or your party have some way to access Darkness or Fog Cloud or similars. This is like a minimulticlass to Battlemaster, which has great action economy, something Paladin loves (you'll be hitting a lot anyways so some triggers to add on top of your hits or to make more hits is sweet).

PAM GWM Sentinel Vuman Paladin eventually picking up Martial Adept (then just Hexblade 1 and +4 Cha) is pretty sweet.

[bbrown12]

1. I like Fallen Aasimar for a Paladin. Perfect stat increases and very flavorful especially for a Conquest Pally.

2. A Paladin that uses a shield is going to be great whether you use The Dueling or Defense Fighting Style.

3. A Warlock dip is very strong on a Paladin for all the reasons mentioned above. I would personally skip the Warlock levels this time for reason I've already mentioned above. Straight Paladin is EXTREMELY strong as is. You don't need Warlock levels.

4. I do not like Warcaster on Paladins. Paladins don't typically need Warcaster and there are many other better feats that you could take.

5. PAM is still the best. PAM offers you the option of using a staff or spear with shield, but also opens up the opportunity for you to drop the shield for the bigger reach weapon if/when you want.
Shield Master is strong, but I really only like it on Conquests.
Sentinel is always great.
Fey Touched is good, but if you can take the Menacing feat, it's much better for Conquests.
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/feat:menacing

6. With all the changes you're considering compared to your original idea, I'd probably take Vengeance instead of Conquest. If you do still want Conquest, and also Warlock dip, Archfey is probably the better fit since it offers yet another fear feature.
Hey, thanks again for your detailied answer! Actually, it's so damn hard to make a decision, because you guys know how to make soneone curious. 🙈

Honestly, I find the biggest advantage of Hexblade to make the paladin SAD. Casting Booming Blade and Eldritch Blast is nice, but feels like a bonus.

On the other hand, the biggest disadvantage in this build comes from "wasting" a Feat for Warcaster and delaying Paladin levels. I could go without Warcaster and just take the advantage mentioned above. That would be straight forward and I could either use the ASI to bump CHA or take PAM/Shield Master. Maybe I will find out on my way that the Hexblade dip isn't necessary (as you recommended). Honestly, I could even go STR 16, CHA 16 to keep the door open. (I actually planned to go STR 15, CHA 17 and go Feytouched later -> but this might be a bit over the top and make this build very unflexible for spontanious changes).

The reason, I wrote that Shield Master/PAM are "out" is that - as mentioned - I intended to go STR to 15, CHA 17 (dipping Warlock). And therefore, at least Shield Master seems an unfortunate choice. But as I said, I could just go STR 16, CHA 16 to be more flexble.

Vengeance would also fit in terms of RP. I read that it is strong, but I didn't really find out why. The Aura (moving on AoO) seems weak. And most spells rely on Concentration. Maybe, I shouldn't worry too much about concentration when after I get Aura of Protection (for some reason I always do - maybe that's why I sticked to Warcaster for so long).

By the way, our DM doesn't drop much stat bossting loot. And unfortunately, we don't include UA.


To sum it up:


Build 1 (min-max Hexblade with Warcaster)

Classes: Paladin / Hexblade
Oath: Conquest
Abilities: STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2

Progression:
Level 1: Paladin (1) - Lay on Hands, Divine Sense
Level 2: Paladin (2) - Fighting Style: Dueling, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
Level 3: Paladin (3) - Oath of Conquest, Disease Immunity
Level 4: Paladin (4) - ASI: War Caster
Level 5: Hexblade (1) - CHA based attacks, Hexblade Curse, 1 Spell Slot, +2 Spells (Shield, Cause Fear), +2 Cantrips (Booming Blade, Eldrich Blast)
Level 6: Paladin (5) - Extra Attack, 2nd-level Spells
Level 7: Paladin (6) - Aura of Protection
Level 8: Paladin (7) - "Fear Aura" (Conquest)



Build 2 (min-max Hexblade without Warcaster)

Classes: Paladin / Hexblade
Oath: Conquest
Abilities: STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2
Progression:
Level 1: Paladin (1) - Lay on Hands, Divine Sense
Level 2: Paladin (2) - Fighting Style: Dueling, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
Level 3: Paladin (3) - Oath of Conquest, Disease Immunity
Level 4: Paladin (4) - Fey Touched (CHA 18)
Level 5: Hexblade (1) - CHA based attacks, Hexblade Curse, 1 Spell Slot, +2 Spells (Shield, Cause Fear), +2 Cantrips (Booming Blade, Eldrich Blast)
Level 6: Paladin (5) - Extra Attack, 2nd-level Spells
Level 7: Paladin (6) - Aura of Protection
Level 8: Paladin (7) - "Fear Aura" (Conquest)
Level 8: Paladin (8) - ASI: Fey Touched



Build 3 ("Flexible Starter-Build")

Classes: Paladin / Hexblade
Oath: Conquest
Abilities: STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
Progression:
Level 1: Paladin (1) - Lay on Hands, Divine Sense
Level 2: Paladin (2) - Fighting Style: Dueling, Spellcasting, Divine Smite
Level 3: Paladin (3) - Oath of Conquest, Disease Immunity
Level 4: Paladin (4) - ASI: CHA or PAM
Level 5: Paladin (5) or Hexblade (1) - ...
...

[CTurbo]

People love Hexblade dips on Paladins because it makes the Paladin more SAD, but Gauntlets of Ogre Strength are an uncommon magic item that sets your Str to 19 and can easily be found or purchased often even at lower levels almost completely negating that advantage. Belt of Hill Giant Strength sets your Str score to 21 and are also pretty easy to find. Of course there are the better more rare giant belts that increase your Str score even more up to 29 at higher levels if you're lucky. I guess what I'm saying is what seems like a perk of being SAD will likely end up being ignored. Of course I never want to COMPLETELY rely on a magic item so I wouldn't dumb Str or anything, but I's start at 16 and never bump it vis ASI.


I love the 5e Paladin and almost every level offers really good stuff.

I want Paladin 5 ASAP for extra attack. Yeah Booming Blade helps a bit, but it's not as good really and doesn't offer the versatility 2 attacks bring.
I want Paladin 6 ASAP for the Aura which could be the single greatest class feature in the entire game.
I want Paladin 7 ASAP because most subclasses have GREAT level 7 auras.
I want Paladin 11 ASAP for Improved Divine Smite(which is even better with PAM)
I want Paladin 13 ASAP for Find Greater Steed
I want Paladin 15 ASAP for the subclass feature
etc....


It's REALLY hard to delay Pally levels IMO lol


I don't love the Vengeance's 7th level feature, but it does have an interesting synergy with PAM as it's lets you move about the battlefield more freely.

With a Warlock dip, I'm more excited by an awesome ranged attack(Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast and the short rest slots for smites.

[paladinn]

People love Hexblade dips on Paladins because it makes the Paladin more SAD, but Gauntlets of Ogre Strength are an uncommon magic item that sets your Str to 19 and can easily be found or purchased often even at lower levels almost completely negating that advantage. Belt of Hill Giant Strength sets your Str score to 21 and are also pretty easy to find. Of course there are the better more rare giant belts that increase your Str score even more up to 29 at higher levels if you're lucky. I guess what I'm saying is what seems like a perk of being SAD will likely end up being ignored. Of course I never want to COMPLETELY rely on a magic item so I wouldn't dumb Str or anything, but I's start at 16 and never bump it vis ASI.


I love the 5e Paladin and almost every level offers really good stuff.

I want Paladin 5 ASAP for extra attack. Yeah Booming Blade helps a bit, but it's not as good really and doesn't offer the versatility 2 attacks bring.
I want Paladin 6 ASAP for the Aura which could be the single greatest class feature in the entire game.
I want Paladin 7 ASAP because most subclasses have GREAT level 7 auras.
I want Paladin 11 ASAP for Improved Divine Smite(which is even better with PAM)
I want Paladin 13 ASAP for Find Greater Steed
I want Paladin 15 ASAP for the subclass feature
etc....


It's REALLY hard to delay Pally levels IMO lol


I don't love the Vengeance's 7th level feature, but it doesn't have an interesting synergy with PAM as it's lets you move about the battlefield more freely.

With a Warlock dip, I'm more excited by an awesome ranged attack(Eldritch Blast + Agonizing Blast and the short rest slots for smites.

I have a problem with relying/counting on obtaining certain magic items by certain levels. IMO one needs to make the best build possible assuming one Doesn't get anything. Then the magic items/weapons are icing on the tasty cake.

I love Vengeance for the oath spells and for Vow of Emnity. Advantage for a minute? Yes please! I've one-shotted a few big bads that way.

A few levels of Hexblade make a paladin SAD, so every ASI isn't required, so a couple feats are possible. And there's the best attack cantrip in the game, even better if one takes Agonizing. So about 9 levels into the build, you have the best stuff from HB and the 6th level Aura. I'm not crazy about the Steed, and you can get more Smite damage other ways. From there I go with Divine Soul sorcerer the rest of the way. Tons more slots for smiting, fair healing, and Fireball! And you can take Transmuted Spell metamagic to tailor an attack to a foe's vulnerabilities.

[Frogreaver]

I have a problem with relying/counting on obtaining certain magic items by certain levels. IMO one needs to make the best build possible assuming one Doesn't get anything. Then the magic items/weapons are icing on the tasty cake.

IMO, this is why one should delay the hexblade dip till relatively later. Don't rely on such magic items, but it can pay dividends to take a wait and see approach. Worst case scenario is you don't get them and end up dipping hexblade later. Best case is you get one and no longer need to worry about the hexblade dip.

[Angelalex242]

I, for one, have yet to use a Hexblade...or sorcerer...dip.

I've played pure paladins the whole time, and I'm quite happy with it.

In Adventure League play, I'm typically either Level 4 (tier 1) Level 10 (Tier 2) Level 16 (Tier 3) Level 20 (Tier 4)

That tier 4 play lets you use the Paladin Capstone, and they have one of the best.

[bbrown12]

I love the 5e Paladin and almost every level offers really good stuff.

I want Paladin 5 ASAP for extra attack. Yeah Booming Blade helps a bit, but it's not as good really and doesn't offer the versatility 2 attacks bring.
I want Paladin 6 ASAP for the Aura which could be the single greatest class feature in the entire game.
I want Paladin 7 ASAP because most subclasses have GREAT level 7 auras.
I want Paladin 11 ASAP for Improved Divine Smite(which is even better with PAM)
I want Paladin 13 ASAP for Find Greater Steed
I want Paladin 15 ASAP for the subclass feature
etc....

IMO, this is why one should delay the hexblade dip till relatively later. Don't rely on such magic items, but it can pay dividends to take a wait and see approach. Worst case scenario is you don't get them and end up dipping hexblade later. Best case is you get one and no longer need to worry about the hexblade dip.
Okay, you got me. This is SO TRUE. As I said, our DM doesn't throw a lot of Magic Items around. But who knows. And I don't have to take the decision right now (what actually feels good).

Ability scores:

a) STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
b) STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2
c) STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2



I guess, c) makes no sense, if I want to keep my way for pure Paladin open. b) lets me take Fey Touched, but WIS 8 looks terrible. 🙈 I prefer a). Do you agree?

[diplomancer]

Okay, you got me. This is SO TRUE. As I said, our DM doesn't throw a lot of Magic Items around. But who knows. And I don't have to take the decision right now (what actually feels good).

Ability scores:

a) STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
b) STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2
c) STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2



I guess, c) makes no sense, if I want to keep my way for pure Paladin open. b) lets me take Fey Touched, but WIS 8 looks terrible. 🙈 I prefer a). Do you agree?

In a way, Paladins are the class that needs Wis less; they have Wis save proficiency and the aura to shore up their saves, and get immunity to fear from level 10; don't sweat it.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

In a way, Paladins are the class that needs Wis less; they have Wis save proficiency and the aura to shore up their saves, and get immunity to fear from level 10; don't sweat it.

This, and it's 1 point. Fey touched gives you 2 more good spells which can also be cast with your slots, which for a 1/2 caster is huge. Whatever you do start with a 17 Chr.

Dex 8 isn't the end of the world either, for much the same reason. You will eventually get Chr bonus to save and there's no AC penalty in Heavy Armor.

[paladinn]

IMO, this is why one should delay the hexblade dip till relatively later. Don't rely on such magic items, but it can pay dividends to take a wait and see approach. Worst case scenario is you don't get them and end up dipping hexblade later. Best case is you get one and no longer need to worry about the hexblade dip.

IMO, the hexblade dip is mostly for SAD and EB. The one area that paladins are most lacking is ranged attacks. EB/AB handles that very nicely. A paladin will likely always prefer to Smite, but I don't thinks/he can smite at range.

Ranged option 2 would be something like Firebolt, once a level of DS is taken, especially if the Transmuted metamagic is also taken. But it still won't be as good as EB/AB.

Like I said, whatever weapons you might get are icing on the cake!

[CTurbo]

Okay, you got me. This is SO TRUE. As I said, our DM doesn't throw a lot of Magic Items around. But who knows. And I don't have to take the decision right now (what actually feels good).

Ability scores:

a) STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
b) STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2
c) STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2



I guess, c) makes no sense, if I want to keep my way for pure Paladin open. b) lets me take Fey Touched, but WIS 8 looks terrible. 🙈 I prefer a). Do you agree?

I would go with b) if you want Fey Touched. Take PAM at 4 and Fey Touched at 8. At level 12 you can decide if you want Shield Master or to max Cha. Shield Master helps out having a low AC a lot BTW.

I agree with 8 Wis not being a big deal on Paladins. I never want to have a negative Dex score do I agree with 10 Dex and 8 Wis.



Of course I can't speak for your DM, but Gauntlets of Ogre Strength are a low level magic item so I still feel like they should be easy to come by at some point(by level 12 easily). A 12th level Paladin with 16 Str is going to be fine anyway.

[bbrown12]

In a way, Paladins are the class that needs Wis less; they have Wis save proficiency and the aura to shore up their saves, and get immunity to fear from level 10; don't sweat it.

I would go with b) if you want Fey Touched. Take PAM at 4 and Fey Touched at 8. At level 12 you can decide if you want Shield Master or to max Cha. Shield Master helps out having a low AC a lot BTW.

I agree with 8 Wis not being a big deal on Paladins. I never want to have a negative Dex score do I agree with 10 Dex and 8 Wis.

Of course I can't speak for your DM, but Gauntlets of Ogre Strength are a low level magic item so I still feel like they should be easy to come by at some point(by level 12 easily). A 12th level Paladin with 16 Str is going to be fine anyway.
Sounds reasonable. I think, I am gonna go STR 15+1, CHA 15+2 then. STR 16 is just nice for the first levels and never a waste. Though the trade is a character with INT 8, WIS 8 what hurts a bit (don't wanna play a stupid AND foolish char 🙈). Might go for DEX 10 instead. It's not a reasonable choice, but RP-wise the character would be "strong, but not "nimble".

[paladinn]

Question: what would be the best ranged attack option for a paladin? Especially given that you can't really smite at range.

[Frogreaver]

Okay, you got me. This is SO TRUE. As I said, our DM doesn't throw a lot of Magic Items around. But who knows. And I don't have to take the decision right now (what actually feels good).

Ability scores:

a) STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 14+2
b) STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2
c) STR 14+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 10, CHA 15+2



I guess, c) makes no sense, if I want to keep my way for pure Paladin open. b) lets me take Fey Touched, but WIS 8 looks terrible. 🙈 I prefer a). Do you agree?

I think you should start 16 str. How interested are you in taking resilient con at some point? If so then do an odd con.

Then you just need to decide how many +1 charisma feats you want. Make your charisma 16 or 17 based on that. Do the best you can with Wis and dex outside that.

If you could pull 16 str, 8 dex, 15 con, 8 int, 8 Wis, 17 cha off with your race then I might recommend that. Assuming resilient con and fry touched will be picks for you.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I think you should start 16 str. How interested are you in taking resilient con at some point? If so then do an odd con.

Then you just need to decide how many +1 charisma feats you want. Make your charisma 16 or 17 based on that. Do the best you can with Wis and dex outside that.

If you could pull 16 str, 8 dex, 15 con, 8 int, 8 Wis, 17 cha off with your race then I might recommend that. Assuming resilient con and fry touched will be picks for you.

I figure Res Con is somewhat wasted opportunity cost on a Paly who plans on maxing Chr in the sense that it's overkill to maintain concentration for attacks doing 21 hp and under. 20 Chr (+5) and 14 Con (+2) means you only need a 3. Get a Ring of Pro, Cloak of Pro, etc: now you need a 2. It would be great to get to a 1, but adding proficiency blows way past that into territory that doesn't matter for most hits.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Question: what would be the best ranged attack option for a paladin? Especially given that you can't really smite at range.

Our experience has been that most of the time we don't have extended ranged battles, so Option A is get up a concentration spell: usually Bless at low- mid levels in round 1. Option B if you haven't managed to close by round 2 is throw a javelin (Javelins of Lightning are high on the want list for Str based characters).
Admittedly, if you're on a ship board campaign or something else where ranged combat is the norm, you'd better be friends with the Wizard with Fly or some other plan. But honestly, if your a Str based martial at some point it's the shared responsibility with the DM to not have your character sitting around unable to contribute regularly.

[paladinn]

Our experience has been that most of the time we don't have extended ranged battles, so Option A is get up a concentration spell: usually Bless at low- mid levels in round 1. Option B if you haven't managed to close by round 2 is throw a javelin (Javelins of Lightning are high on the want list for Str based characters).
Admittedly, if you're on a ship board campaign or something else where ranged combat is the norm, you'd better be friends with the Wizard with Fly or some other plan. But honestly, if your a Str based martial at some point it's the shared responsibility with the DM to not have your character sitting around unable to contribute regularly.

So you don't think it's worth it to take Magic Initiate and EBlast or Toll the Dead or whatever?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

So you don't think it's worth it to take Magic Initiate and EBlast or Toll the Dead or whatever?

I'd say no. You have VERY limited Feats/ ASIs on a Paly, and the number of rounds you're really stuck is pretty limited. To me 5e has made ranged attacking as good as melee, so if I'm DMing I wouldn't be going out of my way to hamstring a melee martial. As I mentioned earlier the Paly has more options than say a fighter or barbarian given that one round can be spent productively by casting a spell. Bless is up there with the best low level spells in the game, so using it is a round well spent. In the long run you get a flying mount anyway even if no other magic appears to help you out.

I guess this is table and campaign dependent, but there's a massive opportunity cost taking a feat to do cantrip damage occasionally vs. chucking a javelin. The only disclaimer I'd put on my opinion is that we generally handwave the multiple object interactions required to throw more than one projectile for martials with multi-attack. Given that you can draw, knock, pull and fire as many arrows as you have attacks it seems an unnecessary limitation to put on Str based characters not to allow them to throw multiple weapons. But this house rule will help shore things up between level 5 and 12 (before the flying mount) for sure.

[Frogreaver]

So you don't think it's worth it to take Magic Initiate and EBlast or Toll the Dead or whatever?

No. This Paladin likely has misty step, a mount if desired, a thrown weapon, the ability to cast a buff spell when unable to reach the enemy, and he has spells like command to force enemies to approach him.

A ranged cantrip is nice but far from essential. If for some reason it was found in a particular game that ranged attacks were very important then dip hexblade at that point. But in most games having one will only be a slight benefit.

[Angelalex242]

It's not the campaign that hamstrings the martial, it's the enemy. A dragon that doesn't get off the ground and strafe is a dumb dragon.

[CTurbo]

Find Steed/Find Greater Steed, (maybe)Misty Step, and thrown weapons will take care of ranged combat.

[Angelalex242]

Not really. The Paladin throwing something is doing d6+5, at best.

This is, as opposed, to his d8+d8 impoved+5d8 smite+5d10 banishing smite+5

The paladin throwing things at the dragon is pretty useless

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Not really. The Paladin throwing something is doing d6+5, at best.

This is, as opposed, to his d8+d8 impoved+5d8 smite+5d10 banishing smite+5

The paladin throwing things at the dragon is pretty useless

This is a false comparison though in a number of ways. You're comparing a resourceless ranged attack vs. a melee attack using 2 spells. A proper comparison in this context is a ranged javelin, which as you say is d6 +5 (assuming the party never gets a magical thrown weapon) vs. 3 dice of damage for a cantrip at tier 3. Essentially you're 1 dice short of someone who burns a feat to get a cantrip if you get forced into this situation. It's a waste of a feat.

The only campaign I've been a part of where lengthy ranged battles were the norm was Ghosts of Saltmarsh. By tier 2 the Paly got a magic item with a swim speed (that he could use in his armor). This was an item in the mod, so I didn't have to change a thing, and the party clearly knew the Paly would make the best use out of it. Besides this it was way more thematic to have the Paly steaming over to enemy boats and chopping them to bits than going 'Pew, Pew, Pew' with a cantrip.

[Angelalex242]

Easy to say that, but what tool does that straight Paladin have to attack the dragon flying a couple hundred feet overhead till his breath recharges and he strafes again from maximum distance?

[CTurbo]

Easy to say that, but what tool does that straight Paladin have to attack the dragon flying a couple hundred feet overhead till his breath recharges and he strafes again from maximum distance?


This is a pretty specific instance where many classes/characters wouldn't be able to do anything while said dragon is hundreds of feet away. If that's the case, a turn spent healing/buffing/supporting the party in some way is not a wasted turn. He could also ready an action to attack when the dragon gets back in range to use it's breath weapon anyway. Also, a Pegasus mount via Find Greater Familiar has a 90ft fly speed so the Paladin could possibly get close enough to attack anyway if it REALLY needed to.

This is a great example of how Shield Master could be really good as with the Paladin's save aura, he'd have a really good chance of passing any Dex save for no damage when the dragon does use it's breath weapon.

[animorte]

This is a great example of how Shield Master could be really good as with the Paladin's save aura, he'd have a really good chance of passing any Dex save for no damage when the dragon does use it's breath weapon.

This is why I very often recommend Shield Master on sword and board PCs.

[paladinn]

No. This Paladin likely has misty step, a mount if desired, a thrown weapon, the ability to cast a buff spell when unable to reach the enemy, and he has spells like command to force enemies to approach him.

A ranged cantrip is nice but far from essential. If for some reason it was found in a particular game that ranged attacks were very important then dip hexblade at that point. But in most games having one will only be a slight benefit.

I'm thinking that spell slots would/should be saved for smite fuel. And tossing a javelin only works if you have a decent Dex. And then you've still likely lost your javelin. Thus, a good ranged attack cantrip. But is it better to dip 1-2 levels in Hexblade or just take Magic Initiate as my vuman feat?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm thinking that spell slots would/should be saved for smite fuel. And tossing a javelin only works if you have a decent Dex. And then you've still likely lost your javelin. Thus, a good ranged attack cantrip. But is it better to dip 1-2 levels in Hexblade or just take Magic Initiate as my vuman feat?

Javelins, like handaxes, spears, etc are not finesse weapons and must use strength whether thrown or in melee. And 120 feet is identical to fire bolt. Again by tier 3 a fire bolt cantrip averages 16.5 hp of damage when it hits (and you get this level of damage only 2 levels before your flying steed). In tier 2 you're averaging 11 points of damage, only a couple more than the javelin. Regardless, none of this is going to make a lick of difference in a significant fight. A buff spell like Bless is easily better than a Smite and a far more effective use of a turn that either a cantrip or a thrown weapon.

If you need to get somewhere your steeds cant get you, in terms of feats, Fey Touched gives you Misty Step, which a Paly can often use to get where they need to go and do significant damage. Since it's a BA, you can do something like (vs. a flying creature) BA Misty Step, 1st Attack grapple (which means effectively stay on top of a Huge creature). 2nd attack swing with Smite if desired.

[Angelalex242]

This is a pretty specific instance where many classes/characters wouldn't be able to do anything while said dragon is hundreds of feet away. If that's the case, a turn spent healing/buffing/supporting the party in some way is not a wasted turn. He could also ready an action to attack when the dragon gets back in range to use it's breath weapon anyway. Also, a Pegasus mount via Find Greater Familiar has a 90ft fly speed so the Paladin could possibly get close enough to attack anyway if it REALLY needed to.

This is a great example of how Shield Master could be really good as with the Paladin's save aura, he'd have a really good chance of passing any Dex save for no damage when the dragon does use it's breath weapon.

If the Dragon saw a pegasus riding Paladin and doesn't waste a round breath weaponing that mount from under the Paladin, he's an idiot. He doesn't wanna melee the Pegasus for fear the Paladin has sentinel and will knock him out of the sky. Better to breathe the mount out from under him.

[CTurbo]

I'm thinking that spell slots would/should be saved for smite fuel. And tossing a javelin only works if you have a decent Dex. And then you've still likely lost your javelin. Thus, a good ranged attack cantrip. But is it better to dip 1-2 levels in Hexblade or just take Magic Initiate as my vuman feat?

Throwing Javelins uses Strength as far as I know.


I love the 5e Paladin, and I've played several of them over the years, and lack of native ranged options has very very rarely been an issue.

I disagree that all spells should be saved for smites. Paladins get some great spells and dealing damage is not everything. I did once play a Paladin that didn't cast any spells ever and used all slots for smites, and it did work out pretty well, but usually a good mix of spells and smites are best IMO.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

If the Dragon saw a pegasus riding Paladin and doesn't waste a round breath weaponing that mount from under the Paladin, he's an idiot. He doesn't wanna melee the Pegasus for fear the Paladin has sentinel and will knock him out of the sky. Better to breathe the mount out from under him.

You keep coming back to this White Room dragon argument, but ignoring the fact that a 3 dice cantrip (what this part of the thread is about) is basically worthless in such a fight, even you do happen to have a damage type that works against the particular Dragon. A proper ranged martial, by tier 3 is going to be averaging several times the damage of either a single thrown weapon or a cantrip.

Even in this White Room argument it's pretty iffy whether the dragon can 1 shot the pegasus and its 59 hp. Does the Paladin also have Mounted Combatant instead of the crappy Magic Initiate for a cantrip?.. the mount would take 1/2 or nothing. Armor of Agathes?... way to many hp even if the Pegasus fails. Even in the worst case the dragon has used its full action to down the Paly and the other 3 characters are free to continue; that's way better than a cantriping Paly that the Dragon can ignore while it roasts the rest of the party.

[Frogreaver]

If the Dragon saw a pegasus riding Paladin and doesn't waste a round breath weaponing that mount from under the Paladin, he's an idiot. He doesn't wanna melee the Pegasus for fear the Paladin has sentinel and will knock him out of the sky. Better to breathe the mount out from under him.

You mean the Dragon used it's breath on a single paladin and mount instead of on the rest of the party? That sounds like a win to me.

[bbrown12]

Thanks again for all your answers! I am currently level 3 and followed your recommendations. This is my current build:

Race: Fallen Aasimar (CHA+2, STR+1, Darkvision, Celestial Resistances, Healing Hands, Clestial Revelation)
Classes: Paladin (3)
Oath: Conquest (CD: Mass Fear, Guided Strike, Fear Aura, Spiritual Weapon)
Abilities: STR 15+1, DEX 10, CON 14, INT 8, WIS 8, CHA 15+2
Fighting Style: Dueling Style with Longsword + Shield
Background: Faction Agent
Skills: Athletics, Intimidation, Persuation, Insight
Campaign: Descent to Avernus


Things to consider:

A) Feats/ASIs:

When reaching level 4, I am not sure, if I am better off taking:


PAM + switching to a spear: Less damage per attack but I get a bonus action attack, which is more chances for a crit or to smite. Also at level 11 it’s another proc of divine smite. (Potential downside is it limits my ability to use any magic non-spear weapons we find.)
Shield Master: Bonus Action for proning enemies. My DM will allow this after the first Attack when I get Extra Attack. The other features of that Feat are als nice. On the other hand, our party consists of two other melees, but also one caster and one archer. So, enemies being proned is not an advantage for any party member.
Fey Touched: +1 CHA for better Aura of Protection saves. Hex for extra damage.

I tend to take PAM on level 4 and Fey Touched on level 8. Hopefully, I will have found a magic item to boost my STR until then. Otherwise, I would consider dipping warlock later.


B) Custom Lineage (Race):

We are currently introducing new players to D&D and plan "restart" characters at level 5 in a few weeks. Our DM mentioned that he would allow Custom Lineage that was introduced through Tasha's Cauldron. It allows to freely design a race with all of the following features:

- Ability Score Increase. One ability score of your choice increases by 2.
- Feat. You gain one feat of your choice for which you qualify.
- Variable Trait. You gain (a) darkvision with a range of 60 feet or (b) proficiency in one skill of your choice.

I definitely want to play an Aasimar. so that would open the door for picking up a more Feat dependend build.

On the other hand, I would loose cool stuff like Resistance to necrotic and radiant damage, as well as the Celestial Revenance feature that builds pretty well with the Oath of Conquest and additionally is a nice damage boost for 1 minute. I tend to stick to the original Aasimar Race, but I would be interested in your thoughts about that.

Would be glad about recommendations. Thanks in advance!

[Damon_Tor]

Coming in late to this thread, but every time I've built exclusively for a weapon type in 5e I've regretted it. If you build with PAM and Dueling style well then you better hope the campaign your in has a magic spear in it. Or a magic halberd if you're PAM plus GWF. And a bunch of campaigns lean hard on the trope of "there's this one specific magic weapon that really helps with this campaign" and if you're the only martial in the party you're going to be sad if that weapon doesn't line up with your feats and fighting styles.

For my money you can't beat the blindsight fighting style. Wrecks invisible monsters (great for finding stuff out of combat too: it's kind of surprising how much invisible stuff is just laying around some campaigns) And if your wizard pal feels like putting down a fog cloud for you to fight in you get easy advantage, while your enemies pretty much straight-up can't touch you. And best of all it works great with any weapon loadout.

[bbrown12]

Thanks for your reply!

Actually, that's exactly what I fear playing a Sword & Board with a spear. Because there is only one single type of weapon I will be limited to.

We are playing "Descent to Avernus". I don't want to look up the loot pool. That would be just too much of min-maxing.

Our campaign might allow to buy some magic items. But that will definitely be at a point where everybody else will have +1 (or better stuff) equipped.

I was thinking of Shield Master as a solution. But for some reason this feels like spending an ASI to get the CHANCE of Advantage for one attack per round. Even though, I play Conquest what offers some symbiosis with that Feat. I am not quite sure, if it's gonna worth it.

[PallyBass]

Thanks for your reply!

Actually, that's exactly what I fear playing a Sword & Board with a spear. Because there is only one single type of weapon I will be limited to.

We are playing "Descent to Avernus". I don't want to look up the loot pool. That would be just too much of min-maxing.

Our campaign might allow to buy some magic items. But that will definitely be at a point where everybody else will have +1 (or better stuff) equipped.

I was thinking of Shield Master as a solution. But for some reason this feels like spending an ASI to get the CHANCE of Advantage for one attack per round. Even though, I play Conquest what offers some symbiosis with that Feat. I am not quite sure, if it's gonna worth it.

If you take Fey Touched at level 4 instead of PAM you buy yourself a decent amount of time where you will still be flexible with your weapon choices before committing to a Feat for fighting preference. I think in general campaign magic items tend to drop around level 5 so that way if you get a magical weapon you can then decide by level 8 whether you want PAM or not. Shield Master is solid on conquest paladins and a great "safe" pick with Dueling fighting style.

[bbrown12]

Thanks for your reply. That's actually a good advice, tho especially in the early Paladin levels there seem's to be a lack of usage for Bonus Actions. That's why I tend to go for a Feat that offers a decent usage for that (PAM or Shield Master).

On the other hand, you are totally right that Fey-Touched would be the savest option where I can't do anything wrong going with it.

Maybe I need to consider, whether or not I want to boost my survivability + support role (Shield Master's option of taking "no damage on a successful DEX save" seems HUGE + proning gives Advantage to allies as well) versus more personal damage (what PAM offers).

As said, we have dual-wield Fighter + Monk that would also take advantage out of proned foes. But we also have a Ranger and Spellcaster (who would get Disadvantage).

Our DM will allow Advantage on my 2nd attack with Extra Attack (level 5).

[animorte]

Maybe I need to consider, whether or not I want to boost my survivability + support role (Shield Master's option of taking "no damage on a successful DEX save" seems HUGE + proning gives Advantage to allies as well) versus more personal damage (what PAM offers).

Personally I would almost always take Shield Master over PAM.

[CTurbo]

I'd always take PAM over Shield Master

[GeoffWatson]

Not really. The Paladin throwing something is doing d6+5, at best.

This is, as opposed, to his d8+d8 impoved+5d8 smite+5d10 banishing smite+5

The paladin throwing things at the dragon is pretty useless

A Javelin is a melee weapon so you can smite with it, even if you throw it.

[stoutstien]

A Javelin is a melee weapon so you can smite with it, even if you throw it.

Well no. Divine smite requires a melee weapon attack not an attack with a melee weapon. Improved divine smite works though.

[PallyBass]

Well no. Divine smite requires a melee weapon attack not an attack with a melee weapon. Improved divine smite works though.

Yes Improved Divine Smite works with thrown melee weapons. Paladins also have a 1st level spell called Divine Favor that works with ranged and melee weapon types- "Your prayer empowers you with divine radiance. Until the spell ends, your weapon attacks deal an extra 1d4 radiant damage on a hit."

edit: I reread the wording in Improved divine smite and I can see how it can apply for thrown melee weapons. I learned something new today!