Should TWF be a proficiency?

[Greywander]

It kind of bugs me that the TWF bonus action attack works differently from other attacks. What if it did regular damage, but didn't add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll? We could then add TWF as a new type of proficiency, and if you are proficient with both the weapon and with TWF, only then would you get to add your proficiency bonus to the off hand attack.

There's a question of how one would get TWF proficiency. I think probably fighters, rangers, and rogues would get it as a class proficiency. Not sure about anyone else. Maybe some races would get it.

[OldTrees1]

I think so many classes would offer TWF proficiency, that it might not be worth being a separate proficiency.

Artificiers? Maybe
Barbarians? Yes
Bards? Yes
Clerics? Maybe
Druids? Yes
Fighters? Yes
Monks? Yes
Paladins? Yes
Rangers? Yes
Rogues? Yes
Sorcerers/Warlocks/Wizards? Maybe No

[DomesticHausCat]

Twf needs buffs, not nerfs imo. Really it falls behind mathematically in damage in the later levels and it's never any better than two handed fighting in the early game. I would make it so that every attack that you make with them you get two attacks. Not just one single extra attack period with a bonus action.

[OldTrees1]

Twf needs buffs, not nerfs imo. Really it falls behind mathematically in damage in the later levels and it's never any better than two handed fighting in the early game. I would make it so that every attack that you make with them you get two attacks. Not just one single extra attack period with a bonus action.

I believe this was meant as a buff.

Currently the offhand does less damage.
Now, the offhand does the same damage as the main hand, but you write 1 more proficiency on your character sheet.

[RSP]

It kind of bugs me that the TWF bonus action attack works differently from other attacks. What if it did regular damage, but didn't add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll? We could then add TWF as a new type of proficiency, and if you are proficient with both the weapon and with TWF, only then would you get to add your proficiency bonus to the off hand attack.

There's a question of how one would get TWF proficiency. I think probably fighters, rangers, and rogues would get it as a class proficiency. Not sure about anyone else. Maybe some races would get it.

I think you’d still need to come up with a replacement FS for TWF. Depending on what that is, would influence whether it helps or not (or is Proficiency the FS?).

[Greywander]

Twf needs buffs, not nerfs imo.
Something like this?
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?648727-Martials-Rejoice!-Expanded-combat-options-better-fighting-styles

But yeah, TWF is pretty lackluster. But addressing that is a bit beyond the scope of this thread.


I believe this was meant as a buff.
It does work out that way for classes that get TWF proficiency, but this was more just a shuffling of things around into an arrangement that made more sense. The BA attack not adding your ability mod to damage is an exception to the rule. Which is fine, but it just doesn't seem necessary. Not being proficient is already part of the rules and just seems more intuitive.

TWF does need more tweaks and buffs, but that's a topic for another thread. Like the one linked above.


I think so many classes would offer TWF proficiency, that it might not be worth being a separate proficiency.
I disagree, TWF requires considerable skill, so not even everyone who is trained with martial weapons would necessarily have that skill. I'd give it to fighters because being weapon masters is specifically their schtick. I'd give it to rangers because it's an iconic aspect of rangers. I'd give it to rogues because they're the only ones regularly using TWF, and accuracy is way more important than damage for them.

Other classes can make a reasonable argument as to why they should get it, but none are as ironclad as these three. If almost everyone does get it, then yeah, we may as well not add TWF proficiency to the game and just make off hand attacks do full damage.


I think you’d still need to come up with a replacement FS for TWF. Depending on what that is, would influence whether it helps or not (or is Proficiency the FS?).
See the link at the top of my post, which includes all new fighting styles for every loadout, including some that don't currently exist.

You could also put the proficiency in the fighting style, or you could only make the fighting style available on classes that already get the proficiency (i.e. rangers yes, paladins no).

[RSP]

You could also put the proficiency in the fighting style, or you could only make the fighting style available on classes that already get the proficiency (i.e. rangers yes, paladins no).

If you want the style to co-exist with the Feat that grants a FS, I’d include Prof with the FS.

[Leon]

No, making TWF a prof is another example of taking what 5e makes simple and needlessly complicating it.



Currently the offhand does less damage.


And that is fine, there is a style if you want to do more damage with it. The flaw with the style is that it feels like a waste of style for one attack so what would work better is some means to get more offhand attacks. The Community Mod pack for cRPG Solasta: Crown of the Magister does this with a feat called Dual Flurry, makes you feel like TWF/style is worth the focus. Personally i'd roll the Style into the Feat and call it a day.

[elyktsorb]

Nah. TWF is a style of fighting, not a specific weapon, or tool. It would feel odd to make it a Proficiency, even if you did buff it slightly as a result.

Making it be required as a Proficiency will likely just make it see less use.

Ultimately, things like Dual Wielder and TWF Fighting Style should likely be buffed. In order to make TWF more usable, as those are things you invest into it.

Like Great Weapon Master is basically all upsides since you choose when to apply the -5 when you feel it will be most effective.

Twin Weapon Fighting, Fighting Style, should add the Ability Mod damage to the offhand hit, and possibly give you a +1 to hit with offhand weapon attacks, or some other such minor thing to buff TWF since by doing TWF you are giving up other usually better options.

Dual Wielder's AC increase should likely be 2 instead of one, since by TWF you are already forgoing the option to have a shield at all, and spending a whole feat, or it should give another minor buff. The use of non-light weapons, isn't much of a damage buff, statistically less so than the TWF fighting style, and the ability to draw two one handed weapons at once is quite negligible.

Ultimately, if you just incorporated the Dual Wielder feat as it is, into the Twin Weapon Fighting, Fighting Style, that would probably be the most reasonable course of action.