[3.5] Combat Rhythm and Defining Normal Attacks

[PRSkittles]

So last session my poor sorcerer dies bleeding out after eating some fireballs and getting charged at. It really couldnt be helped as RNG was not on my side and it happened too fast, but that's ok because PC deaths are a part of this game. I wanted to play a throwing or TWF build when i see combat rhythm on the feat Stormguard Warrior. Looks like a good feat that could work with thunderous throw or TWF but combat rhythm does specify "normal melee attacks". What are normal melee attacks and does TWF count? TWF imo should count but then again it is listed in the PHB under special attacks.

[Vaern]

It may be open to a fair bit of interpretation, but I would personally say that "normal melee attack" is referring to a melee attack you would normally be making if you were not using the ability granted by the feat. Besides the attacks from TWF being extra, they function as any other normal melee attack and should be applicable. That's just my opinion on the matter, though.

[Biggus]

I think this is in "ask your DM" territory. I'd allow it personally but I can't give any RAW arguments either way.

[PRSkittles]

To be honest, I kind of have asked my DM, and am kind of fishing here for some kind of ruling that I may appeal based on. Atm the dm ruling is that considering that TWF is listed under special attacks in PHB, it isn't normal, though full attacks are considered normal attacks.

[Biggus]

Ah, unfortunately I think you're out of luck then. The only other thread I could find which mentioned this also noted the lack of a clear definition of "normal melee attacks". Personally I'm confident Vaern's definition is the one which was intended, but I can't prove it.

Even if I was less confident about the intended meaning I'd probably still allow it because 2WFers need all the help they can get. If the other PCs normally outpace you on damage you could try pointing that out and asking the DM very nicely to reconsider. Sorry that's the best I've got.

[Venger]

It means using a melee attack and not initiating a martial maneuver since it's from tome of battle. You attacking normally in melee is a normal melee attack. TWFing is fine and can be used to power combat rhythm but using mithral tornado or whatever cannot.

[Vaern]

Is there a reason that a special attack can't also be a normal attack?
Some monsters' attacks are inherently considered magic or aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Magic strike and aligned strike are listed as types of special attacks, meaning that these creatures can never make a normal attack unless a special attack can also be normal.
Feats, unless otherwise specified, are extraordinary special abilities, which could arguably make any attack affected by a feat a special attack if you squint hard enough at it. Your build would be effectively shut down by weapon focus.
You might try arguing that, in the context of ToB, a "normal attack" might just be an attack that isn't a maneuver.

[Particle_Man]

How would your DM feel about natural attacks as normal melee attacks? Maybe try a shifter or something else with natural attacks (perhaps combining some tiger blood stuff with the iron heart stuff)?

[Darg]

Some monsters' attacks are inherently considered magic or aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Magic strike and aligned strike are listed as types of special attacks, meaning that these creatures can never make a normal attack unless a special attack can also be normal.


Many special attacks affect the way a creature uses its natural weapons or provide a creature with another natural form of attack.

The ability doesn't necessitate being the attack itself. It just modifies the attack being made in some way, like sneak attack. It's just a way to break abilities apart for quicker understanding of the stat block and for other specific purposes. Maneuvers are Ex or Su by default and require an activation of some kind. They don't modify an attack, they are the attack. So no, there isn't a reason a special attack couldn't be a normal attack.

Honestly though, it's quite obvious what the meaning is if we just look at the Fight the Horde option, "on your turn with melee attacks or Iron Heart strikes." It's easy to deduce that it simply means "not a maneuver."

[ciopo]

My reading is , in the context of combat rhythm, "normal melee attack" means "not a melee touch attack" , since that's what it gets trasformed into.

Possibly, but that's stretching it a bit, also not "a melee attack done as a ranged attack via bloodstorm blade". It is a stretch but not that much of a stretch because bloodstorm blade is the iron heart class, and stormguard is the iron heart tactical feat, so "one being made with the other in mind" sounds plausible

Edit: the wording of wraithstrike lowkey supports this, maybe

[Telonius]

Here's the wording:

Combat Rhythm: To use this option, you can choose to make melee touch attacks in place of normal melee attacks against an opponent. These touch attacks deal no damage. For each melee touch attack that hits, you gain a +5 bonus on melee damage rolls against that same foe on your next turn.

I'd read that as meaning, any time you would usually make a melee attack, you can convert it into a melee touch attack instead. The wording is a bit clunky, but "normal melee attack" isn't a defined term. I think the key idea is that you're changing an attack into something unusual (melee touch attack) rather than what it is normally (melee attack).

(EDIT: The DM may also be concerned about a particular combination with Lightning Maces. You might ask him if that's what he's worried about, and just agree that you won't try to stack that on if that's what the issue is).