artificer spell casting question

[Aurich]

A question on magic casting to see if i'm correct at this:

I have plans for an artificer character but perhaps i'm running into an issue, rule wise.
It is an issue concerning the combination of v, S and M.

Spells have 3 possible components, (V)erbal, (S)omatic and (M)aterial.

M can be substituted by a focus. And when using the focus, it can be in the same hand as the one used for the somatic part.


A spellcaster must have a hand free to access a spell's material components—or to hold a spell casting focus—but it can be the same hand that he or she uses to perform somatic components.

Breakdown:

A spell like Intellect Fortress is no issue, as it is just a vocal component.

A spell like Enlarge/Reduce, which require a vocal, a somatic and a material requirement it for an artificer not a real issue either.
An artificer can either use a focus made out thieves tools, artisans tools or an infused item.
So my artificer using a shield and sword, either one infused, can use that spell without problem, most of the time.

It's when a spell has only a V and an S component I'm uncertain how it is correctly handled.

The spell/(cantrip) Fire Bolt is such a spell.
Shocking Grasp is maybe even more special case.

Question: How must a sword and board artificer correctly use the rules for this spell, given he is holding an infused weapon or shield.

A: Does he has to stow his weapon to cast?
or
B: Can the artificer just cast the spell, while wielding the infused weapon, as said weapon is a spell focus?

(for both spells)

Background:
My artificer is build around riding the steel defender and having a special saddle, along with mind sharpener to keep concentration so I think concentration checks are covered. Knowing that, I'm not inclined to take the warcaster feat at this moment, unless using a V, S spell forces me to juggle with weapons and such too much.

As for a specific role in the party.
We have a
Glory paladin
Forge cleric
Artificer battlesmith (me)
either a wizard or a gunslinger

So my role can be very flexible, but I prefer not to 'lag' dpr wise if the rules force me having to stow the weapon and such.

Plans are for RP stuff and fun, telekinetic feat on lvl8 and finishing int to 20 on lvl 12.

[Captain Cap]

Artificer Spellcasting is peculiar in the sense that for this feature, all spells are considered to have a material component, in addition to the components written in the spell description (see Tools Required).

[stoutstien]

You preform the S and M requirements with the same hand/focus.

[Aurich]

I understand you perform the S and M with the same hand.
It's when you only have a V and an S, not an M, that I'm uncertain about.

Do i need to remove the spell focus from my hand to cast or not.

[stoutstien]

I understand you perform the S and M with the same hand.
It's when you only have a V and an S, not an M, that I'm uncertain about.

Do i need to remove the spell focus from my hand to cast or not.
All artificer casting has a M component added regardless of the requirements of the original spell.

[Psyren]

I understand you perform the S and M with the same hand.
It's when you only have a V and an S, not an M, that I'm uncertain about.

Do i need to remove the spell focus from my hand to cast or not.


All artificer casting has a M component added regardless of the requirements of the original spell.

Adding to this, that means you can cast every artificer spell just fine with sword and board as long as at least one of them is infused.

[Silpharon]

Adding to this, that means you can cast every artificer spell just fine with sword and board as long as at least one of them is infused.

To add further, see the "Tools Required" section under the artificer spellcasting overview in TCE for the reference forcing an 'M' component to every artificer spell.

[Keravath]

Just to reiterate with the rules text ...

For an artificer ONLY

"Tools Required

You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it). You must be proficient with the tool to use it in this way. See chapter 5, “Equipment,” in the Player’s Handbook for descriptions of these tools.

After you gain the Infuse Item feature at 2nd level, you can also use any item bearing one of your infusions as a spellcasting focus."

All artificers MUST have a spellcasting focus - specifically a set of tools or any infused item - IN their hand when they want to cast ANY spell.

Since the hand holding the focus can also perform any required somatic components this means that artificers can always cast all of their spells without a free hand since they MUST have tools/focus in hand to cast ANY spell.

----

For everyone except artificers: Casting a spell with only V,S components requires a free hand in order to perform the S components. This means that the caster must have at least one empty hand to perform the S component of a spell that does not have an M component - unless they have the Warcaster feat.

[Khrysaes]

Following this thread. Ignoring artificer for the moment.

By rules if a spell has a material and somatic component, you can use the same hand for both. But if it has only a somatic component, then You cant be holding the focus in that hand that performs the somatic component?

[Psyren]

Following this thread. Ignoring artificer for the moment.

By rules if a spell has a material and somatic component, you can use the same hand for both. But if it has only a somatic component, then You cant be holding the focus in that hand that performs the somatic component?

Per Sage Advice, the intent is that a hand holding a focus only counts as free for somatic components if the spell being cast also has a material component. The example given is a cleric with their holy symbol on their shield - which makes the shield count as a focus - can cast Aid (VSM) without putting their weapon or shield away, but must put one or both away to cast cure wounds (VS only).

Of course, the good news is that putting your weapon away is much easier than doffing a shield - an object interaction rather than an action. So generally you'd want to opt for stowing the weapon rather than the shield. You can then take it back out on your following turn. The downside of course is that you won't have it out for OAs.

Finally, one of the key benefits of the War Caster feat is that you can ignore this restriction.

[Slipjig]

Following this thread. Ignoring artificer for the moment.

By rules if a spell has a material and somatic component, you can use the same hand for both. But if it has only a somatic component, then You cant be holding the focus in that hand that performs the somatic component?
If there is no M component for a given spell, then the focus isn't used (for non-artificer casters). Holding it would, in fact, prevent you from casting a no-M spell unless your other hand was free.

And I never really thought about this before, but doesn't it seem weird that ANY Artificer spells would have a V component? Purely from a fluff perspective, I don't imagine artificers speaking magic words. Though I guess you could fluff it as the process being noisy...

[Khrysaes]

Per Sage Advice, the intent is that a hand holding a focus only counts as free for somatic components if the spell being cast also has a material component. The example given is a cleric with their holy symbol on their shield - which makes the shield count as a focus - can cast Aid (VSM) without putting their weapon or shield away, but must put one or both away to cast cure wounds (VS only).

Of course, the good news is that putting your weapon away is much easier than doffing a shield - an object interaction rather than an action. So generally you'd want to opt for stowing the weapon rather than the shield. You can then take it back out on your following turn. The downside of course is that you won't have it out for OAs.

Finally, one of the key benefits of the War Caster feat is that you can ignore this restriction.

For this cleric example at least, or i guess any class. Dropping the item instead of stowing it is not an object interaction, picking it up is? So could you not drop to free a hand, cast as action/bonus action, then pick up as object interaction?

[Chronos]

It does seem odd that, at least in some cases, adding a required component to a spell makes it easier to cast, but there it is. The "tools required" feature of the artificer is (mostly) a benefit, not a drawback.

[Psyren]

For this cleric example at least, or i guess any class. Dropping the item instead of stowing it is not an object interaction, picking it up is? So could you not drop to free a hand, cast as action/bonus action, then pick up as object interaction?

That's fair, you could do that with your weapon and thus have it ready at the end of your turn for an OA that round. That still denies you your object interaction for something else however.

[stoutstien]

Note one of the best, but missed, features of the armorer is that you have a built in focus with your suit. Makes them one of the more interesting picks of your table is strict with casting component rules.

[Tharkun]

Adding to this, that means you can cast every artificer spell just fine with sword and board as long as at least one of them is infused.

I am just now looking at Artificers and this is really helping me understand them. It is amusing that ADDING a material component actually makes their casting easier but hey that's 5e baby

[TheCleverGuy]

And I never really thought about this before, but doesn't it seem weird that ANY Artificer spells would have a V component? Purely from a fluff perspective, I don't imagine artificers speaking magic words. Though I guess you could fluff it as the process being noisy...

Yeah, I do think that's weird. I'm playing an Alchemist now, and two of the auto-prepped spells I get every day are Healing Word and Mass Healing Word. I've struggled to find a way to explain how those spells work as potions I can deliver at a distance, eventually deciding i was just shooting healing darts into my friends with my custom-made steampunk crossbow. And the verbal component makes even less sense.

[Slipjig]

One fun way to play with the "an infused item can be your focus" thing: if you infuse a Bag of Holding, you can go full Hat Magician by pulling whatever generates the effect out of the Bag. RAW, the Bag has to be "in your hand" to cast, but I think most DMs would allow that as long as your hand is in the bag rummaging for your next spell any time you aren't casting, it's functionally identical. If removing your hand from the Bag to do something else is a free action, (functionally equivalent to dropping a held item), and going back to rummaging is an object interaction (functionally equivalent to picking an item up), then there's no mechanical advantage to casting one-handed with a BoH tied at your waist or slung across your chest.

This works especially well thematically for alchemists who fluff most of their effects as grenade-like objects.

-edit-

Correction: there is a slight advantage in the fact that your "dropped" BoH stays on your person if you move on before picking it up. But that seems like a pretty minor benefit in most cases.