Player wants custom sleep spell with no HD limit

[PretzelCoatl]

(Pathfinder/3.x, though I'd take input in 5e or even other systems that could be used to cross reference and figure out what I'm looking for)
Hello,

I have a player that wants to create a custom sleep spell without a HD limit, and I'm stumped on the application of this. I'm not positive as to why this effect does not exist, but the fact that no spell in the game (that I can find) allows sleep for anything greater than 10 HD except mythic deep slumber makes me feel that perhaps this should not be done.

I know about the witch hexes that cause sleep, which is in rounds, and mythic deep slumber, as mentioned, but what my player wants is one of two concepts.

1) An improved deep slumber spell with no HD limit.
I don't know how to balance this or what spell level it should be since it doesn't really exist.

2) The ability to use Bestow Curse to apply a sort of Sleeping Beauty effect where someone falls asleep or someone already asleep does not wake up.
Again, I'm not sure on the balance here because it doesn't exist that I can see.


Normally I'd be ok with just saying no since the ability has no other hard precedents, but at its core, and especially at higher levels, sleep isn't terribly different from paralyze, which the players have access to. Different durations, yes, slightly different effects and eventual forced action economy, but ultimately it's a two-step save vs. death, which is *also* allowed at high levels. So,

TLDR:

A) Why doesn't a no-HD limit sleep spell exist? (For a single creature, of course, I understand that infinite HD on a burst spell would be bad)

B) How would I balance one? Levels, cast time, duration, et cetera.

C) Does anyone have a third party one already made that would serve as a good baseline that I've missed?


Additional Backstory:
It's probably worth noting that the player in question wants to use it in three primary ways.

- They want to curse people they don't like to fall asleep
- They want to use it to aid in infiltration, nonlethally subduing anyone they come across. This is why a longer duration would be necessary, not the rounds per level of a hold monster spell
- They want to use it to help them murder people that become helpless.


Thank you! :smile:

[Kurald Galain]

A) Why doesn't a no-HD limit sleep spell exist?
It does, it's called the Slumber hex. It's generally considered very powerful.

[PretzelCoatl]

Hey there,
Thanks for the quick reply. As mentioned, I'm aware of this hex, and it's a good potential baseline for building, but not really what the player is looking for. They're not a witch, and the ability to infinite-cast a supernatural ability like this isn't really the same as casting a spell. Also, the duration is in rounds rather than the minutes or hours the player wants (again, more of a sleeping beauty curse or a no HD-limit sleep spell).

To clarify, the slumber hex is effectively what the player wants, with a major exception: They want the sleep to last minutes, hours, or forever (again, sleeping beauty type curse). As this is a hex, with an end result similar to a spell but a very different mode of acquisition, I am not sure how to balance a slumber "spell." What level would it be? What level would the version that lasts for minutes or hours be? Simply offering the hex as a spell obviously won't work, which is why I haven't used it as a baseline for doing so, as I'm not sure how to proceed.

Do you have any suggestions on how I might modify this witch ability into a spell the player could use?
Thanks!

[Beni-Kujaku]

As an AoE, there's no true mass save-or-lose before level 7 with mass Hold Person. A "Perfect Slumber" would have a smaller area of effect and creatures can be easily woken up, but would affect any type of creature. Seems even.

As a single-target, I'd say it's one level lower than Hold Monster, so level 4 for a wizard, and level 3 for a Bard.

[Rynjin]

It does, it's called the Slumber hex. It's generally considered very powerful.

It's also at-will, which makes it even better.

I'd clock a single target, no HD limit Sleep in at 4th level. One higher than Deep Slumber, which can affect 10 HD of creatures in a 10 ft. radius, and the same level as other classic Save or Die spells like Phantasmal Killer. While stronger than PK, it does technically not outright kill the target, and is a "save for no effect" Save or Die spell unlike Suffocation (which has a partial effect on save) at 5th level.

On a real stretch you could say 3rd level works as well, being one level higher than Hold Person, and somewhat stronger (since they don't get a save at the end of the turn), but IMO Hold Person is a little too efficient as a 2nd level spell anyway.

...And that is likely why it doesn't exist in the first place. A lot of overlap with other spells, and it's hard to nail down how strong it is. It's still covered by immunity to mind-affecting, docking it "power points". It also doesn't work on elves or dragons. But it "sticks" better than most paralysis effects and similar Save or Die spells. But it can be removed just by shaking the target awake, etc.

As for the second scenario, Bestow Curse for "Sleeping Beauty" sleep? No, that wouldn't work. Bestow Curse can wallop people with effects roughly in line with what it already does. The strongest Bestow Curse effect in the book is cursing them with a 50% chance to lose their action. Cursing them with a 100% chance to lose their action is about...twice as strong as that, you know?

[PretzelCoatl]

So you would feel ok with this?

Slumber

School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bard 3, psychic 4, shaman 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, witch 4

CASTING

Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (fine sand, rose petals, or a live cricket)

EFFECT

Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target One living creature
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes

DESCRIPTION

A slumber spell causes a magical slumber to come upon a single creature. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Sleep does not target unconscious creatures, constructs, or undead creatures.

-----------------------------------
You feel this would be ok in terms of balance? Like hold monster it can target a wide array of creature types, but with similar auto-fail and immune conditions. A longer casting time than the hold series of spells, and a longer duration. But same two-step death effect. Easier recovery component.

If so, followup, what level would you feel an hour-per level version would have?

Second followup: The player specifically wants to be able to cast this on already sleeping creatures (something sleep specifically disallows) to keep them unawake and unaware while doing Nefarious Things. What kind of level modifier would you consider appropriate for that modification?

[Rynjin]

Second followup: The player specifically wants to be able to cast this on already sleeping creatures (something sleep specifically disallows) to keep them unawake and unaware while doing Nefarious Things. What kind of level modifier would you consider appropriate for that modification?

I mean if your target is already asleep you can do literally anything you want to them anyway lol, I don't see any need for a level adjustment where in 99% of circumstances a rope and a gag do the same job.

[PretzelCoatl]

...And that is likely why it doesn't exist in the first place. A lot of overlap with other spells, and it's hard to nail down how strong it is. It's still covered by immunity to mind-affecting, docking it "power points". It also doesn't work on elves or dragons. But it "sticks" better than most paralysis effects and similar Save or Die spells. But it can be removed just by shaking the target awake, etc.
Yes, this is the issue I've been running into with it. Thank you.


As for the second scenario, Bestow Curse for "Sleeping Beauty" sleep? No, that wouldn't work. Bestow Curse can wallop people with effects roughly in line with what it already does. The strongest Bestow Curse effect in the book is cursing them with a 50% chance to lose their action. Cursing them with a 100% chance to lose their action is about...twice as strong as that, you know?
You're right, I apologize. I should have been more clear. The character in question also has access to *greater* bestow curse, and that is actually the spell they would be using to do this. The greater version has a variety of fairly powerful effects and some wide-ranging effects in the alternate curses section, but none that I was able to really match up well with this concept, which is, as you said, a cheap, almost save vs. death.

As you point out though, even this curse only has a 75% fail rate on actions, meaning it would be out of line in terms of power. What about a ninth level version that does it? Thoughts?


Greater bestow curse functions as above except with the following changes:

Choose one of the following.

–12 penalty to an ability score, or –6 penalty to two ability scores (to a minimum ability score of 1).
–8 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.
Each turn, the target has a 25% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no actions.
Bestow one of the curses or variants listed below.
Bestow curse of the ages or unluck.

If a specific affliction is bestowed, the save DC of the spell replaces the usual save DC of the affliction. You can also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.

The curse bestowed by this spell cannot be dispelled, but it can be removed with a break enchantment, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell. It cannot be removed with remove curse or suppressed with abeyance. The DC to remove the curse with break enchantment increases by 5.
Alternate Bestow Curse Effects

Bestow curse allows the caster to invent a novel effect, but one no more powerful than those described in the spell itself (no worse than a 50% chance of losing actions, a –4 penalty on checks, or a –6 penalty to an ability score). Effects in line with that power level include the following.

When the victim is adjacent to the area of a damaging spell or spell-like effect, the area expands to include the victim.
The victim can’t heal naturally, and magical healing heals the victim by only half the usual amount (minimum 1 point). Fast healing and regeneration are likewise halved.
Whenever the victim takes damage, he is staggered for 1 round.
The victim is plagued by cacophonous sounds and strobing lights that only she can hear and see. She is distracted (+5 to Perception DCs), cannot take 10 on skill checks, and must succeed at a concentration check (DC 10 + spell level) to successfully cast spells.
Anytime the victim picks up or retrieves an object (including drawing a weapon or ammunition), there is a 50% chance that he immediately drops it. If ammunition is dropped, the attack being made is lost. Any remaining attacks in a full attack action may still be attempted.

[PretzelCoatl]

I mean if your target is already asleep you can do literally anything you want to them anyway lol, I don't see any need for a level adjustment where in 99% of circumstances a rope and a gag do the same job.

The players want to engage in subterfuge. Making someone sleep means they can pass through a place without any evidence of their passage, which can be extremely beneficial given specific scenarios (in this case, a heist). Knocking someone out, while identically effective in the short term, has worse long-term repercussions.

For me this falls under the umbrella of "don't change a rule if you don't understand why it's there." The original authors apparently thought that casting sleep on an already sleeping target was too powerful. Why? I don't know, but they were very explicit about it. That's why I'm trying to figure out why that was stated and what approximate spell-level modification would be appropriate to remove it.

[Beni-Kujaku]

If so, followup, what level would you feel an hour-per level version would have?

Second followup: The player specifically wants to be able to cast this on already sleeping creatures (something sleep specifically disallows) to keep them unawake and unaware while doing Nefarious Things. What kind of level modifier would you consider appropriate for that modification?

Honestly, putting a clause "You can increase the casting time to one minute on a helpless or willing creature. In that case the duration of the spell is one hour/level and it allows no save" would really not change much to the actual power of the spell, and make it more flavorful for the use of your player. I don't think it would change the level.

[loky1109]

Just re-fluff Hold spells.

[Rynjin]

The players want to engage in subterfuge. Making someone sleep means they can pass through a place without any evidence of their passage, which can be extremely beneficial given specific scenarios (in this case, a heist). Knocking someone out, while identically effective in the short term, has worse long-term repercussions.

For me this falls under the umbrella of "don't change a rule if you don't understand why it's there." The original authors apparently thought that casting sleep on an already sleeping target was too powerful. Why? I don't know, but they were very explicit about it. That's why I'm trying to figure out why that was stated and what approximate spell-level modification would be appropriate to remove it.

Eh, regardless, it's a tiny bit of utility I wouldn't be too worried about giving to the party. Turning the party Invisible and casting Silence has much the same effect. It's a niche enough bonus effect that it makes the spell feel more like a real spell, so go ahead and throw them the bone if you're already gonna let them design a new spell.

[PretzelCoatl]

Great, thank you for the perspective and opinions, everyone. I appreciate it.:smallsmile:

[Jervis]

Personally I wouldn’t make one. I would make several with incrementally higher HD caps. But that’s just me

[Telok]

Personally I wouldn’t make one. I would make several with incrementally higher HD caps. But that’s just me

For that I'd also up the area at each one. Probably go with +2 levels at least doubling both hd & area. Maybe 3x hd per +2 level as 5th & 7ths are fairly well stocked with good & similar stuff already.

With Bestow Greater Curse I'd just go full fairy tale on it. Sleep forever after they're already asleep? Sure. But they'll be immune to anything but curse breakers & a wake up kiss. They're already asleep, you could have just killed or mind controlled them. Making them immortal & indestructible while they snore the decades away is fine by me.

[Metastachydium]

Pathfinder/3.x (…) I'm looking for (…) a custom sleep spell without a HD limit

[…]

It's probably worth noting that the player in question wants to use it in three primary ways.

- They want to curse people they don't like to fall asleep
- They want to use it to aid in infiltration, nonlethally subduing anyone they come across. This is why a longer duration would be necessary, not the rounds per level of a hold monster spell
- They want to use it to help them murder people that become helpless.

Alright, if 3.5 stuff works for you, I have good news: there is a 1st party spells meeting these criteria already, namely Endless SlumberCM. It's a 5th level bard or 6th level sorcerer/wizard spell (Will negates, SR: yes); range's close, duration's permanent (but a new save is allowed every 24 hours and the target doesn't need to eat and drink while asleep). Subsequent damage rouses the target, but pretty much nothing else short of a Dispel does.

There are other options as well, but most of them are round/level (Hiss of SleepDrac (sorcerer/wizard 7, Will negates, SR:no)) round/level with further limitations (Sleep MoteSand (druid/sorcerer/wizard 5; Will partial, SR: yes; only works on medium or smaller targets)) come with a HD cap (Melf's Slumber ArrowsCM (bard/sorcerer/wizard 4; Fort partial, SR: yes; duration of 1 hour; requires hitting the target with an arrow)) or simply demented (Dreaded Form of the Eye TyrantCM (sorcerer/wizard 8; transforms caster into a beholder with the Sleep stalk available)).

While it's not a sleep effect, you might also want to look at OverwhelmPHB2; a 6th level touch range sorcerer/wizard spell (Will negates, SR: yes), it deals nonlethal damage to its subject equal to the creature's current hit point total.

[Jawziemotto]

This isn't exactly what your player wants, but perhaps you could use the 3.0 version of sleep (2d4 HD of creature) as opposed to the 3.5 (maximum 4 HD). As a middle ground? It doesn't completely crack the game open but allows for the opportunity to be more powerful via empower, maximize, etc. I don't know if this solution would help you, but I thought I'd offer it.

[Crichton]

Honestly I don't see any problem with a no HD limit sleep spell, as far as balance goes.

It's already a Will-negates, SR:yes, and [Mind Affecting], so by the time the character is high enough level to cast it, getting it to actually work against many of the foes they face will be balanced by defenses those foes have along those 3 aspects. Just make it high enough spell level to balance against other spells that are similarly powered AoE save-or-suck effects.

If you want further limits for balance, compromise by only allowing the no HD version of your Sleep spell to target a single creature instead of an area, or offer the target a new Will save at the end of their turn every round (this is a common balancing factor for many save-or-suck spells in 5e)

[PretzelCoatl]

Alright, if 3.5 stuff works for you, I have good news: there is a 1st party spells meeting these criteria already, namely Endless SlumberCM. .
This is *precisely* what I am looking for. Thanks a ton. :smallsmile: Not sure how I missed this, but I'm glad to see it now.

[Crichton]

Alright, if 3.5 stuff works for you, I have good news: there is a 1st party spells meeting these criteria already, namely Endless SlumberCM. It's a 5th level bard or 6th level sorcerer/wizard spell (Will negates, SR: yes); range's close, duration's permanent (but a new save is allowed every 24 hours and the target doesn't need to eat and drink while asleep). Subsequent damage rouses the target, but pretty much nothing else short of a Dispel does.



This is *precisely* what I am looking for. Thanks a ton. :smallsmile: Not sure how I missed this, but I'm glad to see it now.



Heh, I hadn't heard of that one either. Looks like a good fit! It's encouraging, personally, because it fits most of what I had recommended above. Glad to see my balance snap-judgement isn't too crazy far off lol

[Metastachydium]

This is *precisely* what I am looking for. Thanks a ton. :smallsmile: Not sure how I missed this, but I'm glad to see it now.

As always, I'm happy to help!


Heh, I hadn't heard of that one either.

If it makes you feel better, I only know this much about sleep-inducing stuff because I spent an inordinate amount of time wondering why sleep immunity is being handed out like it's a nice thing when it appears to stop being useful so early.

[mehs]

You can model it after Phantasmal Killer, so 2 saves, single target?, and that gives you room for them being much harder to wake up, no real hd limit, etc. So about 4th level.

[Shalist]

'Dragon breath' (spell comp, src/wiz 5th lvl) for the brass dragon option (sleep gas) has no HD limit.

'Hiss of sleep' (draconomicon, spell comp, src/wiz 7th lvl) has no HD limit.

'Rapture of the deep' (Stormwrack, bard 6) renders a target 'comatose' (not 'asleep', so it explicitly works on dragons / elves), is permanent, and has no HD limit

'Sleep mote' (Sandstorm, drd/src/wiz 5) creates a sleep-inducing dust devil. It has a size limit (medium or smaller) but no HD limit.

There are sleep poisons and gasses (i.e. Forgotten Realms examples (https://www.realmshelps.net/stores/poison.shtml)), and creatures with sleep-related special attacks that could conceivably be employed in some manner (charming them, 'polymorph handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=519.0)' type shenanigans, etc.)

[ericgrau]

I think paralyze is a good comparison so level 5 for hold monsters is a good starting point. 1 level lower for being easier to remove. But not more than that because many monsters may not know how to remove it, especially if they think sleep is limited to 5 or 10 HD. 1-2 levels higher because hold monster gives a new save every round. 1 level higher if it has a short range, 2 levels if medium range. 0-1 level higher if min/level instead of rnd/level, maybe 0 because both are longer than most combats. Especially if it's already higher for being medium range. From that I'd say level 7, medium range, min/level, single target. Maybe level 6.

A risk, especially with a ranged spell, is how easily a melee ally could coup de grace. Possibly before the enemy's ally wakes him up. It's almost a 2 action SoD. I'd have a hard time making it equal or lower level than hold monster for that reason. Even if an ally doesn't, many monsters might not know how to wake his ally up making him as good as dead. Or even if they do the lost 2+ actions might be almost as bad as a death.

So also for reference is finger of death 3.5e which is a 7th level close range effect but a fort save. And only 1 action. So 7th is too high. 5 might be too low or about right for reasons above. So I'll say level 5 or 6.

If it is touch and rnd/level like hold monster I'd be more inclined to agree with 4 or maybe 5. It's still almost as good, in some ways better due to not having repeat saves. Especially against less intelligent foes. If multi target then higher level of course.