Versatile Spellcaster and Gestalt Early Entry Shenanigans

[RCgothic]

Say I have a Gestalt character and I want to get into Nightmare Spinner as early as possible.

The limiting requirement is 3rd level arcane spells, so the typical way is through, e.g. Sorcerer6->Nightmare Spinner 1, or Wizard 5->Nightmare Spinner 1, for earliest entries at lvl 6 or 7.

Versatile Spellcaster allows me to combine lower level slots to cast a higher level spell, so Sorcerer4 gets 2nd level spells, combine them to get 3rd level spells -> Nightmare Spinner 1, gets in at level 5.

This doesn't work for Wizards because Versatile Spellcaster has sa prerequisite "Ability to spontaneously cast spells", and a wizard can't.

However. A gestalt Wizard3//Bardx does have the ability to spontaneously cast spells, and once this prerequisite is met the feat itself doesn't appear to be locked to spontaneous spells only. It says:

"You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."

The bolded part is the feat, and the second part is an example.

So if you are a 3rd level gestalt wizard who can also cast spontaneous spells, you can combine 2nd level prepared spell slots to get a 3rd level spell. Wizard 3//Bardx -> Versatile Spellcaster -> Nightmare Spinner1 at level 4.

Actually come to think of this, it maybe also works without gestalt with spontaneous divinations (extra feat tax) or spontaneous summoning (summoner acf).

Is this a bad interpretation?

[Troacctid]

You can't cast spells below their minimum caster level, which is a problem, and you wouldn't know any 3rd level spells, which is a problem as well. These problems are solvable, but it makes the trick more resource-intensive to use than you would think at first blush.

[RCgothic]

Aha, yes that makes perfect sense.:smallredface:

[Jervis]

Say I have a Gestalt character and I want to get into Nightmare Spinner as early as possible.

The limiting requirement is 3rd level arcane spells, so the typical way is through, e.g. Sorcerer6->Nightmare Spinner 1, or Wizard 5->Nightmare Spinner 1, for earliest entries at lvl 6 or 7.

Versatile Spellcaster allows me to combine lower level slots to cast a higher level spell, so Sorcerer4 gets 2nd level spells, combine them to get 3rd level spells -> Nightmare Spinner 1, gets in at level 5.

This doesn't work for Wizards because Versatile Spellcaster has sa prerequisite "Ability to spontaneously cast spells", and a wizard can't.

However. A gestalt Wizard3//Bardx does have the ability to spontaneously cast spells, and once this prerequisite is met the feat itself doesn't appear to be locked to spontaneous spells only. It says:

"You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows."

The bolded part is the feat, and the second part is an example.

So if you are a 3rd level gestalt wizard who can also cast spontaneous spells, you can combine 2nd level prepared spell slots to get a 3rd level spell. Wizard 3//Bardx -> Versatile Spellcaster -> Nightmare Spinner1 at level 4.

Actually come to think of this, it maybe also works without gestalt with spontaneous divinations (extra feat tax) or spontaneous summoning (summoner acf).

Is this a bad interpretation?

My advice is to just be born an Illumian and qualify with wizard 3 on one side with the Improved Sigel Krau feat. You probably need some way to get +2 CL but that’s not impossible

[Morphic tide]

If you go with Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Versatile Spellcaster as your 1st level feats, then Earth Spell as your 3rd-level feat, you should be able to cast a "3rd-level" Bard spell out of two 1st level slots at a normal caster level of 3, because Earth Spell makes your Heightened spells be cast at +1 CL, so the spell comes out at CL 4, meeting Bard's minimum CL for 2nd-level spells, and Earth Spell also increases the effective level gain of Heighten Spell by one, so instead of 2nd level the spell is 3rd level. Doing it "the hard way" of meeting the required CL 7 to "properly" Heighten to a 3rd-level Bard spell isn't going to happen without Flaws, though, and the need for CL 4 to do 2nd-level Bard spells complicates a lot of usual routes.

However, entering as 5th is fairly easy, as any +1 spell level effect works fine and +3 CL is a lot easier (Bloodline of Fire and Fiery Burst for a CL 7 Heartfire), and there's a surprising amount of stuff that Bard can do to support Wizard. Including throwing in Warblade levels to become a Giga Gish.

[Anthrowhale]

A spontaneous summoning conjurer (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousSummoning) should qualify for Versatile Spellcaster at level 1.

[Darg]

If you go with Heighten Spell, Earth Sense, and Versatile Spellcaster as your 1st level feats, then Earth Spell as your 3rd-level feat, you should be able to cast a "3rd-level" Bard spell out of two 1st level slots at a normal caster level of 3, because Earth Spell makes your Heightened spells be cast at +1 CL, so the spell comes out at CL 4, meeting Bard's minimum CL for 2nd-level spells, and Earth Spell also increases the effective level gain of Heighten Spell by one, so instead of 2nd level the spell is 3rd level. Doing it "the hard way" of meeting the required CL 7 to "properly" Heighten to a 3rd-level Bard spell isn't going to happen without Flaws, though, and the need for CL 4 to do 2nd-level Bard spells complicates a lot of usual routes.

However, entering as 5th is fairly easy, as any +1 spell level effect works fine and +3 CL is a lot easier (Bloodline of Fire and Fiery Burst for a CL 7 Heartfire), and there's a surprising amount of stuff that Bard can do to support Wizard. Including throwing in Warblade levels to become a Giga Gish.

Heighten spell doesn't make spells a higher level, they are only cast as such. If the requirement were "able to cast 3rd level, or as 3rd level, spells" it would work legitimately.


A spontaneous summoning conjurer (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousSummoning) should qualify for Versatile Spellcaster at level 1.

Alacritous Cogitation feat from CMage works too.

[Morphic tide]

Heighten spell doesn't make spells a higher level, they are only cast as such. If the requirement were "able to cast 3rd level, or as 3rd level, spells" it would work legitimately.

The text of Heightened Spell itself, with some emphasis:


A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Everything about it is just "the spell is higher level", not a whitelist of properties it increases. I even take it as more restrictive than most by including the minimum caster level requirement for a real spell of that level for the specific class it's from, something ignored by many a metamagic reduction routine. The sole purpose of the feat is "cast X spell at Y higher level", it is quite difficult to argue that a feat that starts with "has a higher spell level than normal" is not, in fact, making the spell level higher than normal. Versatile Spell with CL bonuses is even a conservative way of getting early entry out of it, as it's very bluntly getting the ability to cast that higher-level spell in all regards but knowing them.

[Crake]

Instead of versatile spellcaster, you can just use heighten spell, sanctum spell and snow casting, and know at least one [cold] cantrip. Congratulations, you are now capable of casting spells equal to your maximum spell level +2. Sure, its under very niche circumstances, but you ARE capable of it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regarding the minimum caster level argument, that's a general rule and it's overruled by specific rules per the errata for all three core rulebooks. So if the general rule says your Wizard 3 doesn't have a high enough caster level to cast 3rd level spells, but Improved Sigil: Krau says your 2nd level spell counts as one level higher when you cast it, the specific rule in that feat overrides the general rule.

[Darg]

The text of Heightened Spell itself, with some emphasis:



Everything about it is just "the spell is higher level", not a whitelist of properties it increases. I even take it as more restrictive than most by including the minimum caster level requirement for a real spell of that level for the specific class it's from, something ignored by many a metamagic reduction routine. The sole purpose of the feat is "cast X spell at Y higher level", it is quite difficult to argue that a feat that starts with "has a higher spell level than normal" is not, in fact, making the spell level higher than normal. Versatile Spell with CL bonuses is even a conservative way of getting early entry out of it, as it's very bluntly getting the ability to cast that higher-level spell in all regards but knowing them.


You can cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is.

Benefit

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.

First, the plain text flat out tells you that it isn't actually increasing the level of the spell. Second, the feat tells you that it increases the effective level of the spell. Effective level is not a defined term so the feat goes on to tell you what it means by explaining that heighten affects all effects dependent on spell level. Lastly, using "effective level" instead of just level and in the example using "treated as" as a qualifier instead of just "be a 4th-level spell" all point to the conclusion that heighten spell does not in fact increase the level of the spell. Having an opening statement to simply show intent of the effect, does not discount everything else that refutes it being irrefutable.

On top of that, the mechanical structuring of metamagic is that all metamagic prepare and cast at the level of the required slot as stated in the PHB in multiple locations. Heighten Spell alters the effect of the spell to be treated as a higher level. Metamagic already does the prepare and casting part intrinsically.

[Morphic tide]

First, the plain text flat out tells you that it isn't actually increasing the level of the spell. Second, the feat tells you that it increases the effective level of the spell. Effective level is not a defined term so the feat goes on to tell you what it means by explaining that heighten affects all effects dependent on spell level. Lastly, using "effective level" instead of just level and in the example using "treated as" as a qualifier instead of just "be a 4th-level spell" all point to the conclusion that heighten spell does not in fact increase the level of the spell. Having an opening statement to simply show intent of the effect, does not discount everything else that refutes it being irrefutable.

On top of that, the mechanical structuring of metamagic is that all metamagic prepare and cast at the level of the required slot as stated in the PHB in multiple locations. Heighten Spell alters the effect of the spell to be treated as a higher level. Metamagic already does the prepare and casting part intrinsically.

...What part of "in all ways treated as a 4th level spell" gives the room to say that it cannot count for prerequisites? Bolding "treated as" does not erase the three previous words in the same sentence stating there is no bound of scope, and there are huge amounts of long-held RAW shenanigans reliant upon Heighten changing the spell level for all purposes.

[Darg]

...What part of "in all ways treated as a 4th level spell" gives the room to say that it cannot count for prerequisites? Bolding "treated as" does not erase the three previous words in the same sentence stating there is no bound of scope, and there are huge amounts of long-held RAW shenanigans reliant upon Heighten changing the spell level for all purposes.

I could in all ways treat a dog as a cat, it doesn't make it a cat. If you want to say that treating a dog as a cat makes the dog a cat, more power to you. Though, a more commonly used phrase to convey the absolute of being is, well, "is." The fact there is a qualifier kind of makes it a weak argument to say "is treated as" means "is." There are a lot of things reliant on the structural integrity of a house of cards, it doesn't make that house of cards any sturdier.

[Morphic tide]

I could in all ways treat a dog as a cat, it doesn't make it a cat. If you want to say that treating a dog as a cat makes the dog a cat, more power to you. Though, a more commonly used phrase to convey the absolute of being is, well, "is." The fact there is a qualifier kind of makes it a weak argument to say "is treated as" means "is." There are a lot of things reliant on the structural integrity of a house of cards, it doesn't make that house of cards any sturdier.

In all ways. Period, there is literally nothing giving it constraints. Explicitly gets past "excludes all spell effects of 3rd level or lower" if Heightened across that threshold. The phrasing of the feat should be unambiguous that it is an indistinguishable modification, your obtuse ontological argument means nothing in the face of "in all ways" and piercing Lesser Globes of Invulnerability.

[Darg]

The phrasing of the feat should be unambiguous

It seems extremely unambiguous to me.


You can cast a spell as if it were a higher-level spell than it actually is.

Very straightforward from the very start. The only "nothing" is what is being ignored. The plain text tells you what the feat does. Several qualitative phrases and use of adjectives that deny definitive classification do exist within the feat text. "In all ways" can also be a catch all phrase in relation to the fact that metamagic already prepares and casts as a spell of the required slot. Heighten calculates the effect of the spell according to the effective level, which dictates the required slot. Thus in all ways (preparation, cast, effect) it is treated as a higher level spell. To say that an example has more authority than the description of its effect, is slicing the onion a little too finely.