OOTS #1265 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Shining Wrath

2022-08-18, 09:26 AM

At some point the quinton may realize it just teleported - but Redcloak did not ask it to reveal that they'd teleported, or to draw him a 3D map. He asked for the orientation and dimensions of every room they enter, but not the coordinates, because it hasn't occurred to him that he's being teleported around. And when dealing with a creature of pure law, best to define that "room" includes "corridors, passages, halls, staircases, and the like".

Oh, it,s not a reference to D&D, it's a reference to phone app games that promise an epic fantasy adventure with modern graphics and incredible gameplay that have extremely generic titles like "Clash of Heroes" or "Rise of Empires" or whatever.

What? Games that don't live up to their advertising? WELL I NEVER. And here I was going to write "Age of Monsters".

Resileaf

2022-08-18, 09:29 AM

At some point the quinton may realize it just teleported - but Redcloak did not ask it to reveal that they'd teleported, or to draw him a 3D map. He asked for the orientation and dimensions of every room they enter, but not the coordinates, because it hasn't occurred to him that he's being teleported around. And when dealing with a creature of pure law, best to define that "room" includes "corridors, passages, halls, staircases, and the like".

Or the Quinton is going to go "He didn't specifically ask me to tell him about that stuff but I think that's probably the kind of thing he'd like to know. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1166.html)

40kenthusiast

2022-08-18, 09:30 AM

Makes sense that we need a new member for Team Evil to counterbalance all the hangers on that the Order has been accumulating.

vonBoomslang

2022-08-18, 09:31 AM

Hm, is that a reminder that force walls can't contain anything that can teleport?

Serini teleported out of a kind of force wall not two dozen strips ago.

Crusher

2022-08-18, 09:33 AM

Shining Wrath

2022-08-18, 09:34 AM

Or the Quinton is going to go "He didn't specifically ask me to tell him about that stuff but I think that's probably the kind of thing he'd like to know. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1166.html)

Depends on those terms that Redcloak just skipped. Whatever they were, the quinton will obey them to the last jot and tittle. Like I said, Redcloak thinking he knows what's in the agreement is likely to bite him. We're getting a lot of "Redcloak isn't as smart as he thinks he is" lessons recently, and I think this will be another.

hamishspence

2022-08-18, 09:36 AM

The modrons continue to be hilarious. I like the ad reference.

Fyraltari

2022-08-18, 09:38 AM

Depends on those terms that Redcloak just skipped. Whatever they were, the quinton will obey them to the last jot and tittle. Like I said, Redcloak thinking he knows what's in the agreement is likely to bite him. We're getting a lot of "Redcloak isn't as smart as he thinks he is" lessons recently, and I think this will be another.

Presumably the modrons would like to keep getting these kind of jobs in the future. In which case it's in their best interest not to screw the customer over, otherwise people will stop summoning them.

Agi Hammerthief

2022-08-18, 09:45 AM

will be interesting to see a map of swap-overs.
also I bet not telling it the purpose of the search will result in a
„fight, fight, fight.. the urge to say: ‚I could have told ya‘ “

factotum

2022-08-18, 09:46 AM

Presumably the modrons would like to keep getting these kind of jobs in the future. In which case it's in their best interest not to screw the customer over, otherwise people will stop summoning them.

I don't think modrons exist just to get summoned by foolish mortals, or that they care if they do or not. And as they are beings of pure Law they literally CANNOT disobey the rules for any reason whatsoever.

Reboot

2022-08-18, 09:47 AM

Skip? Redcloak, you disappoint me, I thought you were more Lawful than that.

This summoning is sponsored by RAID: Shadow Legends!
Unfortunately, owing to a non-sufficient number of clicks, the quinton will recieve no payment for the sponsorship.

[Honestly, I'd have found it funnier if the modron's ad went the opposite way, and advertised Home Office Simulator. THRILL to the joy of spreadsheets. COWER before the wiggly red lines of spellcheck...]

Peelee

2022-08-18, 09:47 AM

carrion pigeons

2022-08-18, 09:49 AM

Presumably the modrons would like to keep getting these kind of jobs in the future. In which case it's in their best interest not to screw the customer over, otherwise people will stop summoning them.

Nah, if that were an issue then people wouldn't make genie wishes. Or summon demons.

Getting access to lots of barely-restrained power is always going to be tempting regardless of how badly it has gone in the past. You're always the one who's going to have learned the lesson and will do things right this time.

Fyraltari

2022-08-18, 09:52 AM

I don't think modrons exist just to get summoned by foolish mortals, or that they care if they do or not. And as they are beings of pure Law they literally CANNOT disobey the rules for any reason whatsoever.
They're getting paid. And they've set up a whole contract system for it. They're clearly not opposed to this sort of things.

Eh, they're not Handsitters. They don't need these jobs.
And yet, I have a feeling the quinton will agree to Redcloak's terms. The Deathworm wasn't a handsitter either.

Also, they're hyper Lawful, not hyper Helpful. :smallamused:
So? they're Lawful Neutral, not Lawful evil, why would they screw their clients over without a reason?

Edit: Like Redcloak just said he's summoned modrons before, if he needed to be hyperspecific, he would know.

SlashDash

2022-08-18, 09:55 AM

As someone in the gaming industry

Well played Giant. Well Played ;D

Oh, it,s not a reference to D&D, it's a reference to phone app games that promise an epic fantasy adventure with modern graphics and incredible gameplay that have extremely generic titles like "Clash of Heroes" or "Rise of Empires" or whatever.

I assume this is actually a reference to many companies like Playrix that give you ads to one type of game and it turns out to be a completely different type of game.
Not just the graphics quality.

Like the many many advertisers for "pull the pin" type games where the game ended being a match-3 and stuff like that.

Reboot

2022-08-18, 09:57 AM

So? they're Lawful Neutral, not Lawful evil, why would they screw their clients over without a reason?

They're True Lawful; they do things By The Book (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html). Whether following the rules set out to the letter helps them [Good] or screws them [Evil] is of literally no concern whatsoever.

shp

2022-08-18, 10:00 AM

What spell is Xykon casting in the 4th panel?

Reboot

2022-08-18, 10:03 AM

What spell is Xykon casting in the 4th panel?

Probably the afterglow of the "Agree" lightning zap.

dancrilis

2022-08-18, 10:03 AM

So? they're Lawful Neutral, not Lawful evil, why would they screw their clients over without a reason?

In fairness to Lawful Evil people they generally won't screw you over without a reason either - perhaps even an understandable reason (Chaotic Evil people will generally have a reason to screw you over also - although it might be a bit less understandable, or maybe the most understandable of all i.e 'they thought it would be funny' or 'they were bored').

Mike Havran

2022-08-18, 10:05 AM

I think Redcloak's demand to map the dungeon is sufficient for the Quinton to point out the teleport trap (I don't believe it will go unnoticed by him). At least Serini's tunnel isn't the final dungeon.

Also, shouldn't the poor blasted monodrone also have grey speech balloon?

Gwynfrid

2022-08-18, 10:06 AM

"Hit Agree to continue" :smallbiggrin:

How I would love to do that just like Redcloak sometimes!

TheNecrocomicon

2022-08-18, 10:09 AM

Is it just me or did the two Agree/Disagree servitor modrons end up being another "red pill vs. blue pill" Matrix reference? I wonder if that's a parallel also to when the IFCC Fiends did the same with Vaarsuvius, or a contrast in how V agonized over the decision whereas Xykon and Redcloak basically mashed the "give me power now and damn the consequences" button as soon as they could without hesitation.

Skip? Redcloak, you disappoint me, I thought you were more Lawful than that.

He still tends primarily towards evil based on his actions so far, rather than lawful. If skipping the terms and conditions brings him personal gain and advancement of his beloved Plan, he'll do it.

Peelee

2022-08-18, 10:10 AM

And yet, I have a feeling the quinton will agree to Redcloak's terms. The Deathworm wasn't a handsitter either.
Sure, that's how the spell works. Just becuase they don't need to do it doesn't mean they won't. It just means it's not exactly a customer service job. See How the Paladin Got His Scar.

So? they're Lawful Neutral, not Lawful evil, why would they screw their clients over without a reason?
It's not screwing over, exactly. It's not doing something the client didn't tell them to do. I'm not going to say they absolutely wouldn't do like the worm, but I am saying it wouldn't be surprising if beings of pure Law stuck to the contract and didn't deviate at all.

Robots

2022-08-18, 10:14 AM

I sent the update link to my friends' group chat and one guy just said "raid shadow legends".

Great update. It was pretty funny.

toughluck

2022-08-18, 10:20 AM

Hm, is that a reminder that force walls can't contain anything that can teleport?

Still, that thing presents a pretty huge obstacle for the OOTS. A pretty dangerous addition to team evil's party for now, and they're not going to be spending many resources as they finish searching. But if they wait too long, the summon might mentally map the place and realize there are conflicting tunnels...or worse, sense the teleportation trick immediately when it happens.

The quinton was not asked to notify them of any such features. And the map will be done mentally, so unless Redcloak asks the quinton specifically if there was a teleport, it won't mention anything.

(Of course, I could be wrong and it will tell them about the teleport immediately upon entering the dungeon at which point Redcloak will realize the Gate spell was completely unnecessary.)

Doug Lampert

2022-08-18, 10:22 AM

Sure, that's how the spell works. Just becuase they don't need to do it doesn't mean they won't. It just means it's not exactly a customer service job. See How the Paladin Got His Scar.

It's not screwing over, exactly. It's not doing something the client didn't tell them to do. I'm not going to say they absolutely wouldn't do like the worm, but I am saying it wouldn't be surprising if beings of pure Law stuck to the contract and didn't deviate at all.

Possibly relevant example: Ethics training at work (run by lawyers trying to be lawful, so not nearly as lawful as modrons but maybe as close as we can get).

A) If you are on a cost plus contract, and see a way to save the customer money or give better service by doing something that doesn't quite match the contract, then inform the customer and ask for (written) permission to do it that way.

B) If you are on a fixed cost contract, and see a way to save the customer money or give better service by doing something that doesn't quite match the contract, then inform our contracts people and let them renegotiate as the details of how to do it better are none of the customer's business till after contracts is done with them.

If this is a fixed cost contract, if providing extra or better service, there needs to be extra or better compensation. And I seriously doubt that Red Cloak is agreeing to cost+ with a modron by hitting accept on the terms and conditions.

Alexandrite

2022-08-18, 10:23 AM

When Redcloak called in Angles there I expected him to have a stronger plan than 'check every door again but faster'. Luckily for him this'll probably lead to the swap trick bring found out.

pearl jam

2022-08-18, 10:25 AM

Arkain

2022-08-18, 10:29 AM

Hmm, I'm tempted to say yes to that adventure ad. But will it take place in a wondrous dungeon cube and will I get to fight an evil wizard construct at the end? :smallamused:

Is it just me or did the two Agree/Disagree servitor modrons end up being another "red pill vs. blue pill" Matrix reference? I wonder if that's a parallel also to when the IFCC Fiends did the same with Vaarsuvius, or a contrast in how V agonized over the decision whereas Xykon and Redcloak basically mashed the "give me power now and damn the consequences" button as soon as they could without hesitation.

I don't think it's just you. I wonder if angels and other good creatures also do that, actually, as we've now seen it from evil and neutral outsiders.

HalfTangible

2022-08-18, 10:30 AM

He still tends primarily towards evil based on his actions so far, rather than lawful. If skipping the terms and conditions brings him personal gain and advancement of his beloved Plan, he'll do it.

There's nothing Evil about skipping over the terms and conditions.

Wildstag

2022-08-18, 10:34 AM

Traditionally, the Modrons were kinda their own thing in the LN plane, with their hierarchy not really beholden to a specific deity. If that is still the case, the "you don't need to know that" WILL come back to bite him, since we've already seen non-deity-aligned Outsiders get up to their own agenda in regards to the Snarl.

That's assuming they're akin to traditional modrons, that is.

Jasdoif

2022-08-18, 10:37 AM

I think Redcloak's demand to map the dungeon is sufficient for the Quinton to point out the teleport trap (I don't believe it will go unnoticed by him).Or enough for Redcloak to eventually recognize that the map of the complex shows passages overlapping without connecting (bonus points for a visual representation of a Klein bottle) and realize there's teleportation going on.

That would, of course, depend on passages not being consistent with 3D space, but I don't think would be at all a stretch.

littlebum2002

2022-08-18, 10:40 AM

I love you Garm.

Also: honestly Redcloak I hate the ones that repeat themselves a lot more. You ever seen the same 15 second ad 4 times in a row? Or more?

My daughter and I are listening to this podcast called "6 minutes". It's a science fiction story told over the course of a few hundred episodes that are, you guessed it, 6 minutes long. And before each episode comes the exact same commercial, so if you're listening to bunch of episodes over the period of a long drive, it gets old FAST.

DaOldeWolf

2022-08-18, 10:51 AM

Oh, look! Its every single thing I hate about adds in one place together. :smallyuk:

bunsen_h

2022-08-18, 11:01 AM

And Greyview playing D&D and not liking it is so disappointing.

"It's not the same as in the ad" doesn't mean "I didn't like it", though that's usually the result.

Depends on those terms that Redcloak just skipped. Whatever they were, the quinton will obey them to the last jot and tittle. Like I said, Redcloak thinking he knows what's in the agreement is likely to bite him. We're getting a lot of "Redcloak isn't as smart as he thinks he is" lessons recently, and I think this will be another.

I'd be surprised if the ESLA didn't have terms that come down to "services provided will be exactly as stated, neither more nor less". Redcloak asked the quinton to keep a mental record of all of the rooms visited, including their dimensions and orientation. Correlating that information and noting inconsistencies isn't part of the Deal, nor is relaying that to Redcloak even on request, much less spontaneously.

Shining Wrath

2022-08-18, 11:01 AM

Presumably the modrons would like to keep getting these kind of jobs in the future. In which case it's in their best interest not to screw the customer over, otherwise people will stop summoning them.

Agree, but their definition of "screw over" may not be what a person not a being of pure law would think.

They're getting paid. And they've set up a whole contract system for it. They're clearly not opposed to this sort of things.

And yet, I have a feeling the quinton will agree to Redcloak's terms. The Deathworm wasn't a handsitter either.

So? they're Lawful Neutral, not Lawful evil, why would they screw their clients over without a reason?

Edit: Like Redcloak just said he's summoned modrons before, if he needed to be hyperspecific, he would know.

Counterpoint: the Gate spell works the same (i.e., payment is required) if you summon a demon, a modron, or a NG celestial. Modrons may have a more formal process, but every creature Gated in can ask for and receive payment. A gated demon still has a verbal contract despite being a creature of evil and chaos. A modron is not going to try to twist Redcloak's words to not give him what he wants like a devil might, but it's also not going to consider his welfare (or that of the world as a whole) as particularly important compared to the letter of the agreement like an angel might. The most likely behavior of a modron is to do exactly what it agreed to do, under a logical interpretation of that agreement. The question becomes whether or not the quinton will think mentioning the teleport is a logical extension of counting the doors and remembering the sizes and orientations of the rooms. And I'd say that it isn't, because if Redcloak cared about the coordinates in some reference frame of the rooms, he should have asked. For all we know these rooms are located a hundred miles away.

KorvinStarmast

2022-08-18, 11:04 AM

Final Panel: so many chuckles.
General theme: yes.
Redcloak's "You don't need to know" and "Skip EULA"ESLA foreshadowing an "oops!" in the future. (The skip at the end was most excellent, however).

We're getting a lot of "Redcloak isn't as smart as he thinks he is" lessons recently, and I think this will be another. Yep. It is possible to be so smart that one outsmarts one's own self.
(EDIT due to "not sure what I did there")

Fyraltari

2022-08-18, 11:07 AM

Agree, but their definition of "screw over" may not be what a person not a being of pure law would think.

Counterpoint: the Gate spell works the same (i.e., payment is required) if you summon a demon, a modron, or a NG celestial. Modrons may have a more formal process, but every creature Gated in can ask for and receive payment. A gated demon still has a verbal contract despite being a creature of evil and chaos. A modron is not going to try to twist Redcloak's words to not give him what he wants like a devil might, but it's also not going to consider his welfare (or that of the world as a whole) as particularly important compared to the letter of the agreement like an angel might. The most likely behavior of a modron is to do exactly what it agreed to do, under a logical interpretation of that agreement. The question becomes whether or not the quinton will think mentioning the teleport is a logical extension of counting the doors and remembering the sizes and orientations of the rooms. And I'd say that it isn't, because if Redcloak cared about the coordinates in some reference frame of the rooms, he should have asked. For all we know these rooms are located a hundred miles away.
I don't see how that counters what I've said. If the quinton wants to be employed in this manner, it's in their interest to be on the level with Redcloak. If they don't, then why aren't they back home already?

mjasghar

2022-08-18, 11:14 AM

WRT the death worm - it seems to have been a servant of Hel so it would be more an ally than a contractor.

Peelee

2022-08-18, 11:19 AM

I don't see how that counters what I've said. If the quinton wants to be employed in this manner, it's in their interest to be on the level with Redcloak. If they don't, then why aren't they back home already?

Because that's how the spell works. The spell specifies that you can call a being to contract work to and the being will demand some form of equitable payment for that work. This isn't an employment line where the modrons are lined up waiting for their turn. This is an aristocrat able to hire you on while you go about your daily life. Its probably not happening very often and you can demand fair compensation and if it's something that goes against your nature you don't have to accept but it's how the system is set up.

The spell let's you call in creatures even if they are unwilling. It let's you control them and command them. They can request fair compensation, but it's not just a free trade deal like you make it out to be

Tundar

2022-08-18, 11:20 AM

I wonder if "Skip" will come back to haunt Redcloak. And "you don't need to know that" seems like it might cause problems if and when the gate is found.

Yes, I'm certain that one is coming back to bite poor Redcloak in the arse and HARD.

PH7

2022-08-18, 11:25 AM

Here's hoping Blackwing is close enough to relay what's happening AND the specific wording of RC's request to the good guys.
Given V's experience with loopholes (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html)and phrasing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1057.html), I'm sure they can figure out some way to counter the quinton.

Fyraltari

2022-08-18, 11:25 AM

Because that's how the spell works. The spell specifies that you can call a being to contract work to and the being will demand some form of equitable payment for that work. This isn't an employment line where the modrons are lined up waiting for their turn. This is an aristocrat able to hire you on while you go about your daily life.
That's not a thing.

Its probably not happening very often and you can demand fair compensation and if it's something that goes against your nature you don't have to accept but it's how the system is set up.

If they can refuse or demand compensation, then yeah it's a free contract. What's forcing them?

Caerulea

2022-08-18, 11:28 AM

I'd be surprised if the ESLA didn't have terms that come down to "services provided will be exactly as stated, neither more nor less". Redcloak asked the quinton to keep a mental record of all of the rooms visited, including their dimensions and orientation. Correlating that information and noting inconsistencies isn't part of the Deal, nor is relaying that to Redcloak even on request, much less spontaneously.
I think it is very unlikely that the quinton will screw Redcloak over on the his phrasing. Redcloack is generally very careful and observant when he sets his mind to surpassing obstacles and could have easily said ten panels worth of specific legalese. However it would be a waste of space and the forum would still pick holes in his phrasing. I think the to the point way he stated his request will encompass reasonable tasks such as displaying the mental map, answering questions about it, alerting Redcloack to the swap-overs, and etc.

Fyraltari

2022-08-18, 11:30 AM

MReav

2022-08-18, 11:33 AM

Redcloak will probably realize the overlapping rooms mean that there is teleportation going on, assuming the Modron doesn't notice it.

Rack

2022-08-18, 11:38 AM

This. Would the people complaining about his wording really have preferred a seventeen-page-long negotiation where every term is carefully defined?

If the wording wasn’t meant to be important they could have started this with Xykon complaining how long that took and Redcloak summarising it.

Dame_Mechanus

2022-08-18, 11:38 AM

I think it is very unlikely that the quinton will screw Redcloak over on the his phrasing. Redcloack is generally very careful and observant when he sets his mind to surpassing obstacles and could have easily said ten panels worth of specific legalese. However it would be a waste of space and the forum would still pick holes in his phrasing. I think the to the point way he stated his request will encompass reasonable tasks such as displaying the mental map, answering questions about it, alerting Redcloack to the swap-overs, and etc.

I think he already did screw himself at least a little, and while I definitely think there are ways he might notice the swap-overs I tend to agree with the people who note that nothing about Redcloak's wording obligates the Quintus to notify him about them directly. The quintus is being asked to do three things: accompany them while restraining all monsters, keep a record of all doors entered within the valley, and provide a detailed map of the dimensions of each room explored. None of these tasks require the quintus to specifically note that they are being teleported out of the valley, as Redcloak's stated goals do not include keeping a reference of where each room is in relation to the rest of the world.

Put it another way, Redcloak stated a perfectly reasonable set of parameters based on the assumption that each door is leading to a physical locale directly within the cliff face. This is an incorrect assumption, but he doesn't know that, and the quintus is in no way obligated or inclined to provide him with extra services beyond that which Redcloak has requested.

Having said all of that, it seems entirely possible that Redcloak will realize this, and it seems a given to me that the quintus will be aware of these facts but simply not note them as it was not related to the terms laid out. It may request additional payment for the additional services or it may not.

Psychronia

2022-08-18, 11:40 AM

Oh man. I was gonna say being an Agree Modron probably sucks the most, but if ads are a thing...

Hmm. Yeah, I'm already seeing a few Rules Lawyer ways Redcloak is screwing himself over. Does encountering hostiles outside of the doors count as "in this canyon"? What about in the other dungeon post-teleport?

I suspect the quinton isn't going to volunteer any information, but it might map something obvious that will lead to Redcloak figuring out the trick during a review of the mapping. Which means to say, if we're unlucky, the next door raid is going to be the last one Team Evil have before the first layer of this place's defenses are broken down.

Rrmcklin

2022-08-18, 11:41 AM

I guess I'm in the minority here with Fyraltari, although for different reasons. Because it seems to me that using this as an exercise of "show of Redcloak's flaws so Team Evil continues to miss the target" would be pointless and time-wasting after we literally just did that.

They wouldn't even need to figure out exactly what Serini's trick is or how to circumvent it, but at some point progress is going to have to be made on their end.

And it strikes me as more likely the purpose of having Redcloak specifically note he's done this before is, yes, he's actually already aware of the terms, not that they've actually changed them.

Jasdoif

2022-08-18, 11:46 AM

Would the people complaining about his wording really have preferred a seventeen-page-long negotiation where every term is carefully defined?I'm suddenly concerned about what's going to be in the eventual book's bonus strips.

Doug Lampert

2022-08-18, 11:48 AM

That's not a thing.

If they can refuse or demand compensation, then yeah it's a free contract. What's forcing them?

Calling Creatures
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord. This use of the spell creates a gate that remains open just long enough to transport the called creatures. This use of the spell has an XP cost (see below).

If you choose to call a kind of creature instead of a known individual you may call either a single creature (of any HD) or several creatures. You can call and control several creatures as long as their HD total does not exceed your caster level. In the case of a single creature, you can control it if its HD do not exceed twice your caster level. A single creature with more HD than twice your caster level can’t be controlled. Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event. An uncontrolled being acts as it pleases, making the calling of such creatures rather dangerous. An uncontrolled being may return to its home plane at any time.

A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell.

If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from a called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promised favor or reward; see the lesser planar ally spell for appropriate rewards. (Some creatures may want their payment in “livestock” rather than in coin, which could involve complications.) Immediately upon completion of the service, the being is transported to your vicinity, and you must then and there turn over the promised reward. After this is done, the creature is instantly freed to return to its own plane.

Failure to fulfill the promise to the letter results in your being subjected to service by the creature or by its liege and master, at the very least. At worst, the creature or its kin may attack you.

Basically, the modron is forced to show up, and is completely at Red Cloak's mercy and can be forced to obey even outright suicidal orders for about 3 minutes, but other than that, it's a totally voluntary relationship and contract.

There's no particular reason to think that the modrons approve of this at all, they simply prefer contracted service to the alternative that the spell offers.

Psyren

2022-08-18, 11:57 AM

Basically, the modron is forced to show up, and is completely at Red Cloak's mercy and can be forced to obey even outright suicidal orders for about 3 minutes, but other than that, it's a totally voluntary relationship and contract.

There's no particular reason to think that the modrons approve of this at all, they simply prefer contracted service to the alternative that the spell offers.

I believe the idea is that he needs much longer than 3 minutes, hence the contract.

I sent the update link to my friends' group chat and one guy just said "raid shadow legends".

Yeah that's essentially what they're lampooning here.

Hm, is that a reminder that force walls can't contain anything that can teleport?

That's been demonstrated in the comic (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0935.html) (also Serini's escape).

Peelee

2022-08-18, 11:59 AM

That's not a thing.
Yes, I know. It was a hypothetical example to show you what that would be like in the real world.

If they can refuse or demand compensation, then yeah it's a free contract. What's forcing them?
Magic. It's magic, dude. It's not a free contract. They can demand fair compensation, and they can refuse if it's outside the bounds of what they are normally like, but they are very much a captive audience. Again, see HtPGHS.The angel was getting ready for a date. She was called to help Gin-Jun. She could not refuse on the grounds of "I would rather do something else right now". She could refuse on the grounds of "I am a being of Good and what you want done goes against that".
Again, this is not a customer service job. This mechanism wasn't even set up by the modrons. It was set up by the universe/gods, and the modrons have to go along with it. Just like the demons and devils and angels and all other planar creatures.

Jaziggy

2022-08-18, 12:01 PM

Siiiiiigh. I knew it was only a matter of time before OOTS got full of ads. :biggrin:

Noting Redcloak's language and the Quinton's likely slavish adherence to the technical definition of the words:

"I would like you to accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon" may result in the jig finally being up when the Quinton says something like "there are no dungeons behind the doors in this canyon".

Carl

2022-08-18, 12:04 PM

oooohhh, that was a new strip faster than i was expecting. Cool.

Also so many lol's. An i agree that skip is going to come back to bite RC hard. Too foreshadowed.

Weather the Quinton will is up in the air for me, it's under no obligation to do so, but it might anyway. Most likely if it wouldn't when RC starts asking questions about the mental map it will refuse to provide info and we might then see the contract renegotiated, not technically within the rules, but feels like somthing that could happen from a story perspective. If it is willing to go beyond to answering questions about the map it's constructing then i suspect it will mention the swap over or relevant inconsistencies.

Shining Wrath

2022-08-18, 12:05 PM

I don't see how that counters what I've said. If the quinton wants to be employed in this manner, it's in their interest to be on the level with Redcloak. If they don't, then why aren't they back home already?

Their interest is in being completely lawful, as that's their essence. If being 100% lawful means "Redcloak will never call us again" while being 99.99999999999999% lawful means "Redcloak is a happy customer", they'll choose the former. And as essentially eternal creatures living on an Outer Plane, their interest in whatever Redcloak is about to offer as payment may be less than you think.

I think it is very unlikely that the quinton will screw Redcloak over on the his phrasing. Redcloack is generally very careful and observant when he sets his mind to surpassing obstacles and could have easily said ten panels worth of specific legalese. However it would be a waste of space and the forum would still pick holes in his phrasing. I think the to the point way he stated his request will encompass reasonable tasks such as displaying the mental map, answering questions about it, alerting Redcloack to the swap-overs, and etc.

This. Would the people complaining about his wording really have preferred a seventeen-page-long negotiation where every term is carefully defined?

I think it could have been summarized with a scene or two of Xykon with his eyes glazed over, Oona falling asleep, Greyview saying something about "When icy jaws of death come, from this tedium they will free me" and so on.

What is the point of showing the negotiations at all if they aren't going to matter? Rich could easily have shown a conversation between MitD and Oona and Greyview while snippets of dialogue indicated negotiations were happening "off-screen". The fact that we see Redcloak telling the quinton that it doesn't need to know what's being searched for in particular looks like the sort of thing that will be a plot point later - the quinton will conclude that helping Redcloak threaten the gods themselves with annihilation is rather unlawful and opt out, perhaps with ensuing violence.

Windscion

2022-08-18, 12:10 PM

Cube modron w/ horned helmet is hilarious.
Also, none of the modrons seems happy to be doing this, and who can blame them? Being part of ads must be like working in telemarketing.

ZhonLord

2022-08-18, 12:31 PM

Cube modron w/ horned helmet is hilarious.
Also, none of the modrons seems happy to be doing this, and who can blame them? Being part of ads must be like working in telemarketing.
Yes, but much like Celia's collegiate studies, every outsider has to start on the bottom rung. And in a plane of pure law, that bottom rung appears to take the form of trying to get contracts out of the unwilling.

Laurentio III

2022-08-18, 12:32 PM

What spell is Xykon casting in the 4th panel?
Probably the afterglow of the "Agree" lightning zap.
Wait wait wait.
So Redcloak is the employer but Xykon is the one accepting the contract?
No way sir. This would be anarchy!

Grey Watcher

2022-08-18, 12:39 PM

Heh, I thought the quinton was going to ask them to hit all the modrons holding drawings of chariots to prove they are humans mortals.

Maybe Rich figured he already did a CAPTCHA joke in Blood Runs in the Family (the shapeshifter security protocol at the Palace.)

I don't think modrons exist just to get summoned by foolish mortals, or that they care if they do or not. And as they are beings of pure Law they literally CANNOT disobey the rules for any reason whatsoever.

I guess it comes down to whether the quinton deems it more Lawful to only provide the services explicitly agreed to or whether it thinks "this information is clearly related to what they asked for, and also appears to be highly relevant (Redcloak did mention he wanted to make a map of the complex with the data the quinton gathers), and our agreement does not prohibit me from sharing it." is actually more Lawful.

And yeah, answering summonings is clearly not it's primary function, since it mentions its "core purpose", whatever that is.

----------

Also, I've been watching a lot of speedruns lately, so I appreciated that. If the quinton does tell them about the teleport trap (or if they manage to deduce its presence if/when the map fails to makes sense), does circumventing the trap make it a glitched any%?

LadyEowyn

2022-08-18, 12:46 PM

Ploppy

2022-08-18, 01:17 PM

Shouldn't pop-up ads for freemium cow clickers be chaos-aligned?

Thermophille

2022-08-18, 01:18 PM

If the Quinton tells Redcloak the dimensions of each room, it will become rapudly apparent that the dungeons they are traversing do not physically fit in the cliff face in front of them. Redcloak is going to figure something out.

Honestly, Redcloak is probably trying to find an area inside the cliff none of the pathways enter, hinting at the location of the Gate, but he'll find this instead.

InvisibleBison

2022-08-18, 01:43 PM

The quintus is being asked to do three things: accompany them while restraining all monsters, keep a record of all doors entered within the valley, and provide a detailed map of the dimensions of each room explored. None of these tasks require the quintus to specifically note that they are being teleported out of the valley, as Redcloak's stated goals do not include keeping a reference of where each room is in relation to the rest of the world.

It's possible that the quinton would define the area before the swapover as being a discrete room, which would reveal at least that something odd is going on there (if the quinton is unwilling to explain why it considered that area to be a separate room from the rest of the hallway) and at most would reveal the whole trick.

Carl

2022-08-18, 01:43 PM

Shining Wrath

2022-08-18, 01:50 PM

It's possible that the quinton would define the area before the swapover as being a discrete room, which would reveal at least that something odd is going on there (if the quinton is unwilling to explain why it considered that area to be a separate room from the rest of the hallway) and at most would reveal the whole trick.

Much is going to depend on how the quinton legalistically determines the definition of "room" and "dimension". Should it show the entire room with the teleport and not mark "right here you teleport", and then show the room teleported into as a different room?

I think Serini has the rooms the same size, so what should the quinton show, legally speaking? Two identical rooms linked together by something to indicate a teleport? Just the destination room, with the start room "off the map" since the scale is wrong to show both?

Sebastian

2022-08-18, 02:27 PM

Sebastian

2022-08-18, 02:28 PM

This seems sufficiently idiot proof...

Idiot-proof? There is no such a thing.

Psychronia

2022-08-18, 02:32 PM

What is the point of showing the negotiations at all if they aren't going to matter? Rich could easily have shown a conversation between MitD and Oona and Greyview while snippets of dialogue indicated negotiations were happening "off-screen". The fact that we see Redcloak telling the quinton that it doesn't need to know what's being searched for in particular looks like the sort of thing that will be a plot point later - the quinton will conclude that helping Redcloak threaten the gods themselves with annihilation is rather unlawful and opt out, perhaps with ensuing violence.

Wait. I'm not familiar with Modrons.
Does this mean they would refuse to perform unlawful acts, even if compelled to by a contract? That doesn't feel right, since that makes it sound like they're incapable of breaking most laws no matter who set them. My assumption was that their "lawfulness" means to strictly adhere to the letter of a contract they make; perhaps in addition to anything imposed on their own plane specifically, with any other laws being overruled. Am I wrong?

Quizatzhaderac

2022-08-18, 02:44 PM

When the Quinton returns he'll be able to claim that Redcloak saw the ad, and is now living a life of fantastical adventure.

A solid win for his performance metrics!

Dear Santa Rich, I would like a bonus comic depicting one of those pull the pin puzzles with Roy and team evil.

Dame_Mechanus

2022-08-18, 02:54 PM

Also, I've been watching a lot of speedruns lately, so I appreciated that. If the quinton does tell them about the teleport trap (or if they manage to deduce its presence if/when the map fails to makes sense), does circumventing the trap make it a glitched any%?

Even if it did Team Evil would still be losing the record to the Order of the Stick, which managed to glitch past the swapover much faster. In fact, considering that Redcloak is using a mechanical quintus to help him, you could argue that their run would be... a tool-assisted speedrun.

If the Quinton tells Redcloak the dimensions of each room, it will become rapudly apparent that the dungeons they are traversing do not physically fit in the cliff face in front of them. Redcloak is going to figure something out.

Absolutely. I don't think this ends with them figuring nothing out because their helper fails to inform them of something outside of the parameters; it just seems entirely plausible that it takes the more time to figure it out than him immediately noting it and disclosing that information.

Then again, it's also possible that it doesn't even last that long. "Query: You requested a map of each room. Does that include the rooms past this teleport passage or only the ones on this side of the teleport?"

Xel

2022-08-18, 02:57 PM

Yes, I know. It was a hypothetical example to show you what that would be like in the real world.

Magic. It's magic, dude. It's not a free contract. They can demand fair compensation, and they can refuse if it's outside the bounds of what they are normally like, but they are very much a captive audience. Again, see HtPGHS.The angel was getting ready for a date. She was called to help Gin-Jun. She could not refuse on the grounds of "I would rather do something else right now". She could refuse on the grounds of "I am a being of Good and what you want done goes against that".
Again, this is not a customer service job. This mechanism wasn't even set up by the modrons. It was set up by the universe/gods, and the modrons have to go along with it. Just like the demons and devils and angels and all other planar creatures.

There is a close analogy in the real world -- a military draft. You have a limited number of options to refuse service. You get compensation for service. It's absolutely not a free trade contract. You (generally) have no choice in being subject to the draft due to the manner of you existence (country of birth for draft, plane of existence in this example).

Grey Watcher

2022-08-18, 03:12 PM

This is a creature of Law. There is no "spirit of the request" for them.

I dunno. It's far from conclusive, but the Quinton asking for not-strictly-relevant information ("What is the object of your search?") suggests (to me, at least) that it is actually interested in the spirit as well as the letter of the law contract. Why ask that unless it's to be able to say "well, since your overarching goal is X, I may be able to assist you more efficiently than what you've asked for." (I'm inclined discount the idea that knowing Redcloak's goal would cause the quinton to reject the proposed contract, since I would imagine it would say "without that critical piece of information, I am unable to agree due to the possibility of conflict with my core purpose. Please provide the necessary information or request a different service." Or, perhaps just red text saying "*required field".

Even if it did Team Evil would still be losing the record to the Order of the Stick, which managed to glitch past the swapover much faster. In fact, considering that Redcloak is using a mechanical quintus to help him, you could argue that their run would be... a tool-assisted speedrun.

Oh, that is absolutely the way I'm thinking of it now.

Also, any bets on whether this is the same quinton the angel from How the Paladin Got His Scar had a date with?

Peelee

2022-08-18, 03:14 PM

Also, any bets on whether this is the same quinton the angel from How the Paladin Got His Scar had a date with?

Oh, that is absolutely the way I'm thinking of it now.

Shining Wrath

2022-08-18, 03:50 PM

Wait. I'm not familiar with Modrons.
Does this mean they would refuse to perform unlawful acts, even if compelled to by a contract? That doesn't feel right, since that makes it sound like they're incapable of breaking most laws no matter who set them. My assumption was that their "lawfulness" means to strictly adhere to the letter of a contract they make; perhaps in addition to anything imposed on their own plane specifically, with any other laws being overruled. Am I wrong?

They are creatures of law. Note that the quinton says "... does not conflict with my core purpose" when discussing the contract. That is, a modron's core purpose (serving the LN deity Primus, being always and absolutely lawful) allows it to reject contracts, or at least that's how I read it. Of course, Rich can decide how OotS modrons behave.

gatemansgc

2022-08-18, 04:09 PM

Heh, I thought the quinton was going to ask them to hit all the modrons holding drawings of chariots to prove they are humans mortals.

the CAPTCHA joke was already done, but would have been funny to see again!

TerrickTerran

2022-08-18, 04:30 PM

It never is the same. That line was fantastic. :smallbiggrin:

gatemansgc

2022-08-18, 04:31 PM

As always, Greyview is right. Why are the ads always so *obviously* different from the game? Like, do they think you won't notice the game you're playing appears to have no connection, game-wise, art-style or visually to what the ad claimed?

it's to the point where different developers have made games that actually play like the misleading ads for other games! namely the pull the pin puzzle games.

Jay R

2022-08-18, 05:15 PM

What is the point of showing the negotiations at all if they aren't going to matter?

It was funny.

This. Would the people complaining about his wording really have preferred a seventeen-page-long negotiation where every term is carefully defined?
I'm suddenly concerned about what's going to be in the eventual book's bonus strips.

I have absolute faith that Rich could write a seventeen-page-long negotiation where every term is carefully defined, make it entertaining and hilarious, and give it an ending I couldn't predict.

Werbaer

2022-08-18, 05:16 PM

Wait wait wait.
So Redcloak is the employer but Xykon is the one accepting the contract?
No way sir. This would be anarchy!
This wasn't about accepting the contract.
Redcloak verbally asked to skip the terms and conditions. Xykon hits the confirmation button after the "are you sure?" reply.

Jasdoif

2022-08-18, 05:40 PM

I have absolute faith that Rich could write a seventeen-page-long negotiation where every term is carefully defined, make it entertaining and hilarious, and give it an ending I couldn't predict.Sure; but seventeen pages of bonus material on a single topic is a tall order, even for a giant. That's more than twice as many pages as recovering Golem Roy!

arimareiji

2022-08-18, 05:42 PM

The only thing that could have made this one better? A pop-up window blotting out 80% of the panel, demanding that Redcloak give his Macebook address for news and updates. :smallamused:

~~~

I think Redcloak may have unintentionally boned himself a lot worse than it appears at first glance:

He says their primary purpose is to speedrun the corridors. Even if the quinton were minded to be helpful... their primary purpose is not to figure anything out. Technically, it's not even to find what they're looking for. Their primary purpose is only to speedrun the corridors until they either find it or check them all. (One could even argue that offering superfluous information gets in the way of speedrunning.)
He doesn't request that the quinton make them a map or any sort of visual representation. He only requests that the quinton keep track of 1) which doors and 2) what order, plus 3) every room's dimensions and orientation*. Unless he uses some sort of magic that turns the quinton's thoughts into a visual representation, he'll only get exactly the information requested... from which "we" (Team Evil) will make a map.
In deciding he already knows everything he needs to about the agreement, he doesn't consider the "that doesn't apply" flaw of mentation. I can't count how many times I've forgotten some detail because at the time I heard it, I thought it was unimportant because it didn't apply (or sometimes, because I thought it never would apply).

* - If the quinton is being extremely lawful, this even excludes the corridors.

This is a creature of Law. There is no "spirit of the request" for them.
So much this. And technically, "being more helpful than contractually obligated" is a mildly-Good act.
Ymmv whether the deathworm volunteered info out of fear of Hel's wrath, for snacking opportunities, for the lulz, or something else.

As always, Greyview is right. Why are the ads always so *obviously* different from the game? Like, do they think you won't notice the game you're playing appears to have no connection, game-wise, art-style or visually to what the ad claimed?
Woohoo, another potential member of the Greyview Appreciation Society! I guess we really should work on a defined process for joining. (^_~)

Grey Watcher

2022-08-18, 06:01 PM

As always, Greyview is right. Why are the ads always so *obviously* different from the game? Like, do they think you won't notice the game you're playing appears to have no connection, game-wise, art-style or visually to what the ad claimed?

Because by the time you see that, you've already paid for the game, so they don't care how happy you are with it.

F.Harr

2022-08-18, 06:35 PM

I like Oona the philosopher. She really cares that you understand that they're metaphors.

I like this creature of law. I think it'll get along with Redcloak famously.

Ravus

2022-08-18, 06:49 PM

a_flemish_guy

2022-08-18, 07:08 PM

I have to wonder if the quinton can even realize that the party is being teleported.

If it cannot and it starts mapping overlapping rooms... well, I hear that modrons have interesting reactions to inconsistencies.

quintons can literally teleport to the exact location they want as an at will ability
I've no doubt it'll notice, wether or not it'll think this is crucial information is another question

now thinking meta here: I think this will lead to the discovery of the teleport trick, serini has already confirmed that the gate's somewhere else and as such this will only lead to team evil getting backstage, this is bad but not catastrophicly so, also the I suspect the quinton will leave as it's purpose will be fullfilled and RC will be super pissed that he didn't spot this earlier and has effectively thrown away a big advantage

ReaderAt2046

2022-08-18, 08:03 PM

Oh dear gods, so many funny lines in this one! I think zapping the "agree" modron was my favourite, though.

Ruck

2022-08-18, 08:16 PM

Oh dear gods, so many funny lines in this one! I think zapping the "agree" modron was my favourite, though.

I don't know why exactly, but a good "Ow!!" in this comic always cracks me up.

Ortho

2022-08-18, 08:32 PM

Through sheer coincidence, I was watching the world record speedrun of Roller Coaster Tycoon 2 when I read this page. I laughed out loud at "what the ancients called 'speedrun, any%'".

Throknor

2022-08-18, 09:17 PM

How would the Quinton know that Redcloak doesn't know about the dimensional switch? Also he doesn't ask for the dungeons/caves to be mapped - he asks for the rooms' dimensions, not the corridors.

Specifically, he asks:
1) Accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in the canyon
2) Restrain all hostile creatures encountered within.
3) Keep a mental record of which doors were entered and in what order
4) and the physical dimensions and orientation of every visited room.

Making that list I notice there's nothing about telling Redcloak anything at all, at least not voluntarily. He might answer questions like 'did we go through this door', but there's nothing there about hanging around after going through all of the doors to dictate a map.

KorvinStarmast

2022-08-18, 09:46 PM

Making that list I notice there's nothing about telling Redcloak anything at all, at least not voluntarily. He might answer questions like 'did we go through this door', but there's nothing there about hanging around after going through all of the doors to dictate a map.
Yes, many loopholes. Just like prophecies. Just like wishes. I am surprised that a sketch of a monkey paw was nowhere in this strip.

Alex Warlorn

2022-08-18, 10:03 PM

You think the wizard would be the cube, since they're the smartest one of the three.

Potatopeelerkin

2022-08-18, 10:39 PM

Because by the time you see that, you've already paid for the game, so they don't care how happy you are with it.

The games which do this are free-to-play mobile games. If you do this in a game you have to pay for, you'll run afoul of advertising laws. Free-to-play games are only allowed to do it because they're technically not selling you anything.

As always, Greyview is right. Why are the ads always so *obviously* different from the game? Like, do they think you won't notice the game you're playing appears to have no connection, game-wise, art-style or visually to what the ad claimed?

My understanding is that a non-insubstantial amount of players continue to play even once they've realised the game is completely different to the ad (they might even forget what the ad was in the first place), and it's easier to lure players in by trickery and then hope they'll stay than to honestly get them to download another Bejeweled/Candy Crush clone.

Wowlock

2022-08-18, 11:44 PM

Question: Would those helpers turn on Redcloak and co if they learn about what they are actually seeking and risking potential end of EVERYTHING? I don't think Lawful beings would be ok with messing with the gates and something like Snarl.

Peelee

2022-08-18, 11:49 PM

The games which do this are free-to-play mobile games. If you do this in a game you have to pay for, you'll run afoul of advertising laws.

Oh, to live in the wonderful world of Australia. Sadly, I can only visit vicariously by watching the famed Aussie documentary Bluey.

danielxcutter

2022-08-18, 11:51 PM

While the very existence of the quinton here is likely going to help Team Evil figure it out one way or another, I think that Redcloak's smart enough that he'd start to figure it out once they've mapped some or all of the place to ask it things that would allow him to piece it together. The Quinton might not provide this knowledge up front - even ignoring the "letter of the law" thing it really doesn't know much about the situation so there'd be a limit to that even if it wanted to - but there's no reason for it to not provide it either. Especially since one of the specifically requested tasks was "remember the size and shape of the rooms".

In other words, it probably won't solve the puzzle for Redcloak, but the nature of the task means that there's a good chance of it providing knowledge that would help him figure it out on his own.

Also, I wonder if the Quinton would refuse the task if it knew what Team Evil's specific goal was. The secret nature of the Snarl lore probably means the gods haven't outright blacklisted TDO's followers from summoning outsiders, but "aid in a task that has the risk of unmaking the multiverse" just might go against its core nature. The Snarl being a chaotic mess of quiddity strings probably doesn't help, either.

drDunkel

2022-08-18, 11:56 PM

Redcloak better know the cartographic symbol for a teleport, or ask for the map to have a legend bar.

Potatopeelerkin

2022-08-19, 12:48 AM

Oh, to live in the wonderful world of Australia. Sadly, I can only visit vicariously by watching the famed Aussie documentary Bluey.

Not that I love the US' consumer laws, but I think the US has similar rules about misleading advertising (the FTC Act, from some cursory googling?). That's why mobile game ads are so infamous in a way that other platforms are not.

It is pretty nice over here though. I can confirm, we are all secretly blue dogs.

Edric O

2022-08-19, 01:04 AM

The banter between Greyview and the quinton is going to be glorious.

Ruck

2022-08-19, 02:33 AM

Oh, to live in the wonderful world of Australia. Sadly, I can only visit vicariously by watching the famed Aussie documentary Bluey.

I went once, many years ago. It was fun. I drank my first flat white and I ate kangaroo. Plus I made some money.

Also, I wonder if the Quinton would refuse the task if it knew what Team Evil's specific goal was. The secret nature of the Snarl lore probably means the gods haven't outright blacklisted TDO's followers from summoning outsiders, but "aid in a task that has the risk of unmaking the multiverse" just might go against its core nature. The Snarl being a chaotic mess of quiddity strings probably doesn't help, either.

I wonder if the Quinton would even understand the goal. I mean, obviously if it was explained to them, but since the Outsiders get mind-wiped I'm guessing they wouldn't even know about the Snarl. Without knowing that-- and obviously without Redcloak going to the lengths of explaining "we're going to perform a magic ritual to weaponize a god-killing abomination"-- even giving the modrons as much detail as "seize this magical Gate for my god's purpose" probably isn't objectionable.

Crimsonmantle

2022-08-19, 02:49 AM

There are many possible ways this can play out exactly but TE not understanding there's something seriously wrong with the dungeon layout is not one of them.

Also, Reddie's more suspicious of the MitD (more observant of its words in the last few strips) then he let on earlier.

a_flemish_guy

2022-08-19, 04:08 AM

You think the wizard would be the cube, since they're the smartest one of the three.

I think the cube is a duodrone rather then a quadrone as it doesn't have wings (then again tridrones are normally inverted pyramids rather then cones but it's the only modron who kind of looks like a triangle)

drDunkel

2022-08-19, 04:21 AM

Just noticed that the quinton has had the hand of the “tail arm” behind its back, Tarquin style, since Redcloak skipped the chanting of the ESLA.

brian 333

2022-08-19, 07:57 AM

~~~
Woohoo, another potential member of the Greyview Appreciation Society! I guess we really should work on a defined process for joining. (^_~)

I considered working on this, but realized that since we are all destined for icy jaws of death, I might instead get treat and let fan club worry about itself.

InvisibleBison

2022-08-19, 08:05 AM

Also, Reddie's more suspicious of the MitD (more observant of its words in the last few strips) then he let on earlier.

I don't think Redcloak is suspicious of MitD. He blames MitD for messing up the paint, but he thinks that was due to incompetence, not malice.

Dragonus45

2022-08-19, 08:12 AM

The punchline is funny, but it feels a little more like the kind of short term pop culture reference that the strip doesn't do as often. Not sure how it will age.

Laurentio III

2022-08-19, 09:12 AM

Peelee

2022-08-19, 09:35 AM

The punchline is funny, but it feels a little more like the kind of short term pop culture reference that the strip doesn't do as often. Not sure how it will age.

You are on the internet by no less that 15 years, so I don't understand why you consider this a "short term" reference.
It's old as smartphone apps, and not going to end in the near future.
In Futurama, there's an episode (A Bicyclops Built for Two) where the characters log onto the internet. Fry exclaims in shock, "my god! It's full of ads!" This episode aired in 2000.

It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine how well the OotS ad joke age.

toughluck

2022-08-19, 09:37 AM

Put it another way, Redcloak stated a perfectly reasonable set of parameters based on the assumption that each door is leading to a physical locale directly within the cliff face. This is an incorrect assumption, but he doesn't know that, and the quintus is in no way obligated or inclined to provide him with extra services beyond that which Redcloak has requested.

First of all, amazing call with the username, considering you signed up over a month before the strip with the summoned Quintus.

Second, I think that Redcloak already realized long ago that he's being teleported around, he just doesn't realize when the teleport is happening and how. After clearing out several dozen (or several hundred) dungeons, you would notice that it's impossible for all of them to be in the same location because they don't leave any room to change direction if at least some of them aren't just single rooms.

Remember that Redcloak is paranoid, he doesn't know how much modrons know and/or don't know, so he will not share any details that might give the Quintus an idea of what they're looking for.

Having said all of that, it seems entirely possible that Redcloak will realize this, and it seems a given to me that the quintus will be aware of these facts but simply not note them as it was not related to the terms laid out. It may request additional payment for the additional services or it may not.

If Redcloak is already aware of the teleport, he just needs the Quintus to give him a map and thinks that once he has a map, he'll figure out where the teleport is and how it's working. But Redcloak won't ask the modron what he thinks and Redcloak will ignore anything useful the Quintus might tell him simply because he considers himself a superior intellect that doesn't need any help from anyone other than what's explicitly stated (like needing an arcane caster).

TheNecrocomicon

2022-08-19, 09:41 AM

In Futurama, there's an episode (A Bicyclops Built for Two) where the characters log onto the internet. Fry exclaims in shock, "my god! It's full of ads!" This episode aired in 2000.

It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine how well the OotS ad joke age.

The current strip strikes me as the sort of punchline that wouldn't have necessarily worked (or at least not so well) in the era when OotS was a new webcomic, but it does today.

Like, yes, we had internet ads including pop-ups, but smartphones, streaming, etc. were in their infancy at best.

Oromin

2022-08-19, 09:47 AM

I feel like Redcloak is going to figure it out whether the quinton spells it out explicitly or not. The fact that he asked for the room geometry suggests he already has an inkling that something doesn't make sense. He's been tunnel visioned on clearing the dungeons, but when the math is thrown in his face I think he'll figure it out.

danielxcutter

2022-08-19, 09:50 AM

I wonder if the Quinton would even understand the goal. I mean, obviously if it was explained to them, but since the Outsiders get mind-wiped I'm guessing they wouldn't even know about the Snarl. Without knowing that-- and obviously without Redcloak going to the lengths of explaining "we're going to perform a magic ritual to weaponize a god-killing abomination"-- even giving the modrons as much detail as "seize this magical Gate for my god's purpose" probably isn't objectionable.

Well yeah, that vague would probably be okay for it. There’s a good chance TDO is LE anyways. I meant “if it specifically knew what precisely Team Evil’s goal was” though.

JonahFalcon

2022-08-19, 10:17 AM

At least the ad wasn't a political ad. "President Primus - doing a good job? Let us know!"

durron597

2022-08-19, 10:29 AM

So.... not asking the Quinton to just legend lore? Maybe he doesn't want the Quinton to know what they're looking for, and they are afraid if he casts legend lore it will betray his core purpose?

Quizatzhaderac

2022-08-19, 10:37 AM

At least the ad wasn't a political ad. "President Primus - doing a good job? Let us know!"Single, 18+ adventurers in your area are looking to party with you!

Dragonus45

2022-08-19, 10:38 AM

You are on the internet by no less that 15 years, so I don't understand why you consider this a "short term" reference.
It's old as smartphone apps, and not going to end in the near future.

In Futurama, there's an episode (A Bicyclops Built for Two) where the characters log onto the internet. Fry exclaims in shock, "my god! It's full of ads!" This episode aired in 2000.

It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine how well the OotS ad joke age.

It just felt a little specific to what mobile ads look like right now as opposed to just making a joke about ads in general. If nothing else it stands out a since it's not the usual.

Who wants to bet the EULA on Modron summoning changed recently and Redcloak just made a terrible error.

Peelee

2022-08-19, 10:40 AM

It just felt a little specific to what mobile ads look like right now as opposed to just making a joke about ads in general. If nothing else it stands out a since it's not the usual.

Id agree, except if mobile ad formats change it'll still come across as an ad joke, just not a recognizable-as-a-niche one.

faustin

2022-08-19, 10:52 AM

I'm curious, which is the typical payment to Primus agents for such a task?

bunsen_h

2022-08-19, 10:55 AM

Yes, many loopholes. Just like prophecies. Just like wishes. I am surprised that a sketch of a monkey paw was nowhere in this strip.

That was the supposed fifth arm of the quinton in the previous page. :smallbiggrin:

Second, I think that Redcloak already realized long ago that he's being teleported around, he just doesn't realize when the teleport is happening and how. After clearing out several dozen (or several hundred) dungeons, you would notice that it's impossible for all of them to be in the same location because they don't leave any room to change direction if at least some of them aren't just single rooms.

The setup is physically possible with no dimensional / teleporting shenanigans whatsoever. All that's needed is for the dungeons to have long corridors between the door and the rooms, so they can spread outwards and downwards from the cliff face.

We also know that the area is composed of "dimensional stone", whose properties are unknown. Some forumites have suggested that it means nothing more than that there's a mass of stone in the corresponding space on the ethereal plane, which would be sufficient to block effects like ghostform travel. My take is that it's involved in the packing of the rooms into a too-small volume and the trap lines at the doors: a single effect with multiple useful consequences.

Single, 18+ adventurers in your area are looking to party with you!

Our party is too low-level; a level 18+ addition would preclude our getting XP.

a_flemish_guy

2022-08-19, 11:01 AM

So.... not asking the Quinton to just legend lore? Maybe he doesn't want the Quinton to know what they're looking for, and they are afraid if he casts legend lore it will betray his core purpose?

that's not a maybe, the quinton explicitly asks what they're searching for and RC told him that he doestn't need to know that

also I'm not sure how much legend lore will help here, yes it fits the requirements but the less people know about it the less details legend lore can give you and the gates and the scribbles themselves have been fairly succesfull at keeping all of this under wraps
I think if you want anything usefull to show up with legend lore it'd require the quinton to understand that he's looking at part of a whole which would require telling him about the other gates and I think that's a situation which RC definitly wants to avoid

a_flemish_guy

2022-08-19, 11:32 AM

I'm curious, which is the typical payment to Primus agents for such a task?

standard payments for outsiders
1) gold or magic items to apropriate temples (I don't kow how much nodroms care about that)
2) gifts to the creature itself (I don't think any non-corrupted modrons have things that can be described as wants outside of doing their job)
3) actions that'll help it's cause (for a modron this could be for example the deaths of various chaotic creatures)

so yeah, I'm curious as well what the required payment will be

bunsen_h

2022-08-19, 11:49 AM

also I'm not sure how much legend lore will help here, yes it fits the requirements but the less people know about it the less details legend lore can give you and the gates and the scribbles themselves have been fairly succesfull at keeping all of this under wraps

If a construction crew was involved in hiding the gate, there may be lurking information about its location. We know that a construction crew built Dorukan's dungeon, and we saw Serini taking delivery of a crate of monsters.

standard payments for outsiders
[...]
3) actions that'll help it's cause (for a modron this could be for example the deaths of various chaotic creatures)

so yeah, I'm curious as well what the required payment will be

Destruction of Xykon, after his role in the ritual is finished..?

Quizatzhaderac

2022-08-19, 11:49 AM

In hyper lawful news, I'm worried the Redcloak said "Skip!" four times, when he only wanted to skip twice. What horrible (or tedious) things might have been skipped.

I'm curious, which is the typical payment to Primus agents for such a task?I've heard energon crystals would be optimal for Primus.

elros

2022-08-19, 12:01 PM

OOTS has had several instances where characters have their requests backfire because of loopholes in how they asked them. I am not sure if the Giant plans on the Quinton seeing the teleport and not mention it, or if he intends to have the Quinton inform Team Evil.
Either way, I hope it moves the plot along.

HalfTangible

2022-08-19, 12:18 PM

danielxcutter

2022-08-19, 12:24 PM

The setup is physically possible with no dimensional / teleporting shenanigans whatsoever. All that's needed is for the dungeons to have long corridors between the door and the rooms, so they can spread outwards and downwards from the cliff face.

We also know that the area is composed of "dimensional stone", whose properties are unknown. Some forumites have suggested that it means nothing more than that there's a mass of stone in the corresponding space on the ethereal plane, which would be sufficient to block effects like ghostform travel. My take is that it's involved in the packing of the rooms into a too-small volume and the trap lines at the doors: a single effect with multiple useful consequences.

And I think you're reading into this too much. It's made fairly explicit that the swapovers might as well be capable of sending people who cross over... basically anywhere else on the Material. Also, if it was basically a Dungeon of Holding I think that would have pinged on the Detect Magic.

Rinazina

2022-08-19, 12:24 PM

Jasdoif

2022-08-19, 12:38 PM

It seems most likely to me that the Quinton will note the teleportation effect after searching several doors. Either that, or it will search the teleported area of one door and then ask if it should also investigate the "real" tunnel.

After all, it doesn't know what Redcloak is looking for, so for all it knows their target could be located in one of the teleported-to rooms. But figuring out the trick does move the plot along to its next beat faster than having it search every door and only THEN telling Redcloak about the teleportation.I'm imagining it going like this, at a suitably dramatic moment:

:redcloak: "Wait. Why is this room on your projection differently colored?"
⚙️: "That is not a room, that is a region overlapped by two rooms from the baseline observation point."
:redcloak: "How is that possible?"
⚙️: "The end points of the respective teleportation effects are necessarily not aligned with respect--"
:redcloak: "Teleportation?!?! When have we been teleporting?"
⚙️: "Each doorway contains a spacial translocation zone."
:redcloak: "And you didn't think to tell me?"
⚙️: "You necessarily traversed one to get to the location where you summoned me."
:redcloak: "And that means I was supposed to know?"
⚙️: "Are you not familiar with Gear'rdus Mercator's Treatise on Higher-Dimensional Topology?"
:redcloak: "...you thought it was obvious we were exploring a teleportation-linked complex, because we were inside a teleportation-linked complex."
⚙️: "Correct."

(Unicode gear emoji not to scale, probably.)

danielxcutter

2022-08-19, 12:38 PM

Dear all,

I'm surprised by you forumites, I haven't read any mechanistic rumination.

i.e. despite the fact that Quinton can produce "wall of force" at will, could Sunny's eye still dissolve them? the magical destruction effect of Roy's sword, should it break WoF?

what I fear most, is that hem* might spam clairvoyance/claroudience into hem path, and cause to our side to lose surprise?

also, hem has access to Cleric spells in "Law, War, and Protection" domains. I'm not sure which spell levels, but if I'm interpreting the CR (14) correctly, it means access to seventh level spells like Dictum, Repulsion, Power Word (Blind), and I'm frankly afraid for my beloved PCs and NPCs.

Certainly blackwing will bring back the problem, but how much, the LSSOOOTS will be ready to counter? exciting!

* hem: he/she, but for Modrons

First of all, "they" is probably enough, though most sources tend to use "it".

Second, Wall of Force is explicitly indestructible if it's not one of the explicit abilities that can pop it. Sunny's antimagic cone and disintegration ray would work(as would the Disintegration spell). Roy's magic sword doesn't do jack unless he's taken like ten levels including one in an epic prestige class since the last time we saw him or if his sword has a property similar to an Angelwing Razor(which it isn't depicted as, likely a good thing as said artifacts are made by honing the edges on the wings of captive celestials).

Third, CR is Challenge Rating. It has nothing directly to do with caster level. If you've got a source, it probably lists what level of cleric casting a Quinton has access to. Also, it's not contracted for helping Team Evil against the Order anyways.

I don't know where your sources are from anyways - five quatloos says that it's from dandwiki, which is notoriously full of homebrew, since I don't think there's been any official supplement in 3.x with Modron statblocks.

Jasdoif

2022-08-19, 12:41 PM

I don't know where your sources are from anyways - five quatloos says that it's from dandwiki, which is notoriously full of homebrew, since I don't think there's been any official supplement in 3.x with Modron statblocks.Modrons appear in one of the web enhancements for the 3.0 Manual of the Planes. You can keep your quatloos, if you like.

danielxcutter

2022-08-19, 12:45 PM

Modrons appear in one of the web enhancements for the 3.0 Manual of the Planes. You can keep your quatloos, if you like.

Got a link? Can't seem to find it.

Jasdoif

2022-08-19, 12:48 PM

Got a link? Can't seem to find it.Ooh neat, archive.org backed up the zipped PDF from WotC's 3.x pages. (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101205846/http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/modrons.zip)

Rinazina

2022-08-19, 01:02 PM

Second, Wall of Force is explicitly indestructible if it's not one of the explicit abilities that can pop it. Sunny's antimagic cone and disintegration ray would work(as would the Disintegration spell). Roy's magic sword doesn't do jack unless he's taken like ten levels including one in an epic prestige class since the last time we saw him or if his sword has a property similar to an Angelwing Razor(which it isn't depicted as, likely a good thing as said artifacts are made by honing the edges on the wings of captive celestials).

ok thanks, this means Sunny is going to have a seriously big target painted over heb (he/she but for beholder? :smalltongue:) back

Third, CR is Challenge Rating. It has nothing directly to do with caster level. If you've got a source, it probably lists what level of cleric casting a Quinton has access to. Also, it's not contracted for helping Team Evil against the Order anyways.

I checked the 3.x source, and, when I read "as a 20th-level cleric". I normally expect is the Caster Level for Dispelling purposes, not descriptive of the number of spell slots and spell known. but I never played a 3.x so please let me know.

If the Team Evil has such arsenal now with an expense of 1000px from R.C. it seems to be a very good investment for a little bald man

danielxcutter

2022-08-19, 01:13 PM

I checked the 3.x source, and, when I read "as a 20th-level cleric". I normally expect is the Caster Level for Dispelling purposes, not descriptive of the number of spell slots and spell known. but I never played a 3.x so please let me know.

If the Team Evil has such arsenal now with an expense of 1000px from R.C. it seems to be a very good investment for a little bald man

No, it really means that it has the casting abilities of a 20th-level cleric. Ironically, this thing is even better at casting Cleric spells than its summoner.

HalfTangible

2022-08-19, 01:48 PM

:redcloak: "...you thought it was obvious we were exploring a teleportation-linked complex, because we were inside a teleportation-linked complex."
⚙️: "Correct."

I mean when he puts it like that...

Eric the White

2022-08-19, 02:25 PM

The punchline is funny, but it feels a little more like the kind of short term pop culture reference that the strip doesn't do as often. Not sure how it will age.

I like the unbridled optimism that ads are going away sometime soon!

Doug Lampert

2022-08-19, 03:20 PM

I like the unbridled optimism that ads are going away sometime soon!

It's an odd ecology. Most of the ads on a game are for other free games that are funded by ads.

The occasional game that gets its revenue from in-app purchases and the occasional ad for non-game stuff appear to be the only actual income producers, and I'd guess that that's maybe half the ads I see (or maybe a lot more of these games actually expect to get something from in-app purchases than I think, but a lot of them seem to have "ad-free" as their only significant in-ap purchase).

Carl

2022-08-19, 04:05 PM

If the Team Evil has such arsenal now with an expense of 1000px from R.C. it seems to be a very good investment for a little bald man

Welcome to 3.x casters, they're insanely overpowered when not sticking to mostly blasting like Xykon and V.

mjasghar

2022-08-19, 06:21 PM

And I think you're reading into this too much. It's made fairly explicit that the swapovers might as well be capable of sending people who cross over... basically anywhere else on the Material. Also, if it was basically a Dungeon of Holding I think that would have pinged on the Detect Magic.

Except that the places they are sent also have multidimensional stone to block ethereal travel etc. Moreover it’s likely that if they were teleported to different continents you would see a difference in monsters encountered and clothing.

tyckspoon

2022-08-19, 06:45 PM

If the Team Evil has such arsenal now with an expense of 1000px from R.C. it seems to be a very good investment for a little bald man

Plus either 500 or 1000 GP or equivalent value per HD of the summoned creature, depending on how long the requested service is expected to take. It's not -free-, but yeah, the value you would expect to get from having access to a creature like that to assist you in clearing several fights or an entire dungeon massively outweighs the costs to summon them; the comic has largely avoided showcasing just how effective summoned assistance like this can be in order to let the main cast stay in the spotlight, because once you start on it the question of 'ok why don't you just drop a high-tier Angel/demon/devil/avatar of Law/elder elemental/etc on it?' starts getting asked about everything.

(Part, I suspect, of why Rich made the 'it takes part of my soul' thing seem more dramatic and painful with this casting compared to previous XP costs being treated in a 'eh, it sucks, but I'll earn it back' fashion - it helps explain why they haven't just Gated in heavy hitters to help them burn through more doors faster before, even though they're running into encounters where Epic Lich Xykon can actually earn xp which means Redcloak would certainly make back the 1,000 XP and more.)

Grey Watcher

2022-08-19, 07:17 PM

I'm imagining it going like this, at a suitably dramatic moment:

:redcloak: "Wait. Why is this room on your projection differently colored?"
⚙️: "That is not a room, that is a region overlapped by two rooms from the baseline observation point."
:redcloak: "How is that possible?"
⚙️: "The end points of the respective teleportation effects are necessarily not aligned with respect--"
:redcloak: "Teleportation?!?! When have we been teleporting?"
⚙️: "Each doorway contains a spacial translocation zone."
:redcloak: "And you didn't think to tell me?"
⚙️: "You necessarily traversed one to get to the location where you summoned me."
:redcloak: "And that means I was supposed to know?"
⚙️: "Are you not familiar with Gear'rdus Mercator's Treatise on Higher-Dimensional Topology?"
:redcloak: "...you thought it was obvious we were exploring a teleportation-linked complex, because we were inside a teleportation-linked complex."
⚙️: "Correct."

(Unicode gear emoji not to scale, probably.)

I mean, Celia provides precedent for outsiders being a kinda clueless about the limitations of Primes.

LadyEowyn

2022-08-19, 07:23 PM

It's an odd ecology. Most of the ads on a game are for other free games that are funded by ads.

The occasional game that gets its revenue from in-app purchases and the occasional ad for non-game stuff appear to be the only actual income producers, and I'd guess that that's maybe half the ads I see (or maybe a lot more of these games actually expect to get something from in-app purchases than I think, but a lot of them seem to have "ad-free" as their only significant in-ap purchase).

My guess would be that they’re the kind of apps that collect data from everything you do on your phone/tablet (not just in the app) and sell it to other business, and that that - rather than ads or in-app purchases - is their primary revenue stream.

That may also be why the app creators don’t care that the game us completely different from how the ads depict it: whether or not you play the game is irrelevant. Once you’ve downloaded it, they have what they want.

KorvinStarmast

2022-08-19, 08:32 PM

I mean, Celia provides precedent for outsiders being a kinda clueless about the limitations of Primes. Giggled, I did. Never did like Celia, except for the date night in azure city.

Riftwolf

2022-08-19, 09:07 PM

I'm guessing the ads generated by a Lawful Neutral force are at least honest representations. And don't run a mini-game that clicks you over to the Play store after three moves. Or force real actors to read out the stupidest scripts to make it seem like you get the best stuff in the game for free. Or start with yelling.
I have a lot of problems with gaming ads...

Thermophille

2022-08-19, 09:42 PM

I have a lot of problems with gaming ads...

To be fair, they're not aiming for the most discerning audience...

Coventry

2022-08-19, 09:59 PM

I wonder if "Skip" will come back to haunt Redcloak. And "you don't need to know that" seems like it might cause problems if and when the gate is found.
Also, poor "Accept" modron.

Functionally infinite number of forcewalls? Really? That's pretty OP.

And Greyview playing D&D and not liking it is so disappointing.

I think the second "skip" during the ad is what is going to haunt Redcloak. A Modron would skip the ad and the next thing in line.

WanderingMist

2022-08-19, 10:03 PM

In Futurama, there's an episode (A Bicyclops Built for Two) where the characters log onto the internet. Fry exclaims in shock, "my god! It's full of ads!" This episode aired in 2000.

It is left as an exercise to the reader to determine how well the OotS ad joke ages.

Also from 2000, this Onion article:

Area Man Consults Internet Whenever Possible (https://www.theonion.com/area-man-consults-internet-whenever-possible-1819565463)

Psyren

2022-08-19, 10:08 PM

Siiiiiigh. I knew it was only a matter of time before OOTS got full of ads. :biggrin:

I chuckled

First of all, "they" is probably enough, though most sources tend to use "it".

Second, Wall of Force is explicitly indestructible if it's not one of the explicit abilities that can pop it. Sunny's antimagic cone and disintegration ray would work(as would the Disintegration spell).

Actually, Wall of Force is immune to antimagic field, and therefore also Sunny's cone which works identically to it.

HalfTangible

2022-08-19, 10:13 PM

I chuckled

Actually, Wall of Force is immune to antimagic field, and therefore also Sunny's cone which works identically to it.

Hold on, antimagic field shut down forcecage the first time we saw it cast

ff7hero

2022-08-19, 10:15 PM

Hold on, antimagic field shut down forcecage the first time we saw it cast

I don't recall the comic being referenced, but I feel compelled to point out that Forcecage and Wall of Force are different spells.

HalfTangible

2022-08-19, 10:25 PM

I don't recall the comic being referenced, but I feel compelled to point out that Forcecage and Wall of Force are different spells.

It's when the black dragon returns to attack V while on an island in the middle of the sea. Both spells create walls of pure force.

Psyren

2022-08-19, 11:25 PM

Hold on, antimagic field shut down forcecage the first time we saw it cast

IIRC there was a lot of contention around that when that comic debuted, but strictly by RAW the Giant was in the right - Forcecage is not listed as specifically being immune to AMF, while Wall of Force is.

I'm not going to rehash that particular debate, I'll just point out that by the (3.5) rules, a beholder's cone cannot shut down a wall of force.

danielxcutter

2022-08-19, 11:46 PM

Welcome to 3.x casters, they're insanely overpowered when not sticking to mostly blasting like Xykon and V.

To be fair, a) when Xykon's against an actual threat, often he's facing multiple opponents so blasting gets a bit more efficient, and b) Redcloak actually uses a lot of non-blasting spells. He's probably one of the best "cleric as caster" examples in the game. (Durkon is more cleric-as-gish, which also includes physical combat.)

IIRC there was a lot of contention around that when that comic debuted, but strictly by RAW the Giant was in the right - Forcecage is not listed as specifically being immune to AMF, while Wall of Force is.

I'm not going to rehash that particular debate, I'll just point out that by the (3.5) rules, a beholder's cone cannot shut down a wall of force.

Of course, if Sunny catches the Quinton in their AMF it won't be able to make any walls anyways.

Psyren

2022-08-19, 11:53 PM

Of course, if Sunny catches the Quinton in their AMF it won't be able to make any walls anyways.

Sure, but while his cone is aimed there it's not on Redcloak unless RC is next to it.

danielxcutter

2022-08-19, 11:57 PM

Sure, but while his cone is aimed there it's not on Redcloak unless RC is next to it.

I mean the area of the cone is pretty wide. If Sunny is part of the fight, it's unlikely they'll be able to trivialize the entire encounter but I don't think they're going to be utterly useless either.

Xirdus

2022-08-20, 12:03 AM

Grey Watcher

2022-08-20, 12:29 AM

As an avid speedrunning fan, I must point out this isn't Any%. It's more of a 100%, or at least All Dungeons%. Any% is what the Team Stick did - arrive at the right one on first try then clip through walls to the end.

Not really, they intend to stop if they find the Gate, rather than keep exploring. So this is more akin to a no-manip run. Or possibly a blind playthrough since they don't know the big twist.

Fish

2022-08-20, 01:52 AM

What is the point of showing the negotiations at all if they aren't going to matter?
Perhaps the parts that matter were already shown.

Jervis

2022-08-20, 02:18 AM

Plus either 500 or 1000 GP or equivalent value per HD of the summoned creature, depending on how long the requested service is expected to take. It's not -free-, but yeah, the value you would expect to get from having access to a creature like that to assist you in clearing several fights or an entire dungeon massively outweighs the costs to summon them; the comic has largely avoided showcasing just how effective summoned assistance like this can be in order to let the main cast stay in the spotlight, because once you start on it the question of 'ok why don't you just drop a high-tier Angel/demon/devil/avatar of Law/elder elemental/etc on it?' starts getting asked about everything.

(Part, I suspect, of why Rich made the 'it takes part of my soul' thing seem more dramatic and painful with this casting compared to previous XP costs being treated in a 'eh, it sucks, but I'll earn it back' fashion - it helps explain why they haven't just Gated in heavy hitters to help them burn through more doors faster before, even though they're running into encounters where Epic Lich Xykon can actually earn xp which means Redcloak would certainly make back the 1,000 XP and more.)

In my opinion this is the reason V banned Conjuration, in a meta sense anyway. As for our other caster friend… uh, dishonorable?

Sure, but while his cone is aimed there it's not on Redcloak unless RC is next to it.

Well he might be able to aim it down and get the whole room like last tim. But even disregarding that I think Quintons and Modrons have some decent stats for bopping things on the head. I don’t have the stats in front of me but I remember some decent battle capabilities and I think those modrons might have EX flight. As an aside I can actually see MitD revealing himself because of a ambush that involves sunny.

Thermophille

2022-08-20, 03:18 AM

In my opinion this is the reason V banned Conjuration, in a meta sense anyway.

I thought it was for teleportation?

Steveio

2022-08-20, 04:54 AM

Trixie_One

2022-08-20, 06:55 AM

The punchline is funny, but it feels a little more like the kind of short term pop culture reference that the strip doesn't do as often. Not sure how it will age.

There's been plenty of those kind of jokes in the strip to the point it didn't jump out at me at all. In the same strip you've got a joke about speedrunning. Sure that's been around since Doom but it's not really been popularized on the internet as a whole since Summoning Salt got big in the last couple of years.

warmachine

2022-08-20, 07:55 AM

Peelee

2022-08-20, 08:18 AM

IIRC there was a lot of contention around that when that comic debuted, but strictly by RAW the Giant was in the right - Forcecage is not listed as specifically being immune to AMF, while Wall of Force is.

Neither are, actually. WoF says "immune to most spells" any they lists spells that can affect it, but does not mention AMF (it does mention Dispel Magic). Forcecage has something like "similar to WoF ignores Dispel magic but is affected by these spells".

mjasghar

2022-08-20, 08:19 AM

My guess would be that they’re the kind of apps that collect data from everything you do on your phone/tablet (not just in the app) and sell it to other business, and that that - rather than ads or in-app purchases - is their primary revenue stream.

That may also be why the app creators don’t care that the game us completely different from how the ads depict it: whether or not you play the game is irrelevant. Once you’ve downloaded it, they have what they want.

Actually free games like candy crush etc are much more malicious than you think - they are platforms for gambling game designs
They see which type of shiny graphics people like the most and then use them to invent more addictive gambling games

Skrilzz

2022-08-20, 08:44 AM

Redcloak may regret not listening to the terms and conditions. Quintons have high rank in Modron society, making it far more likely no other Modron can do their job in an emergency. There may be a clause that quintons can be recalled back to their job at no notice, which isn't present in the standardised T&Cs of lesser Modrons.

Had to read through six pages to make sure nobody noticed this, and on the final page it was there.

Redcloak says in the first panel: "I've summoned weaker inhabitants of this plane before and the contract is standardized."

How would he know the contract terms are the same for quintons. Implication from previous contracts is not proof in my book. :confused:

WanderingMist

2022-08-20, 09:01 AM

Actually free games like candy crush etc are much more malicious than you think - they are platforms for gambling game designs
They see which type of shiny graphics people like the most and then use them to invent more addictive gambling games

While I'm sure some of them have that purpose, that's definitely a more recent trend, considering Bejeweled has been around since 2001 and started with the shiniest of graphics.

warmachine

2022-08-20, 09:32 AM

Had to read through six pages to make sure nobody noticed this, and on the final page it was there.

Redcloak says in the first panel: "I've summoned weaker inhabitants of this plane before and the contract is standardized."

How would he know the contract terms are the same for quintons. Implication from previous contracts is not proof in my book. :confused:
Indeed. Further, most legal systems require negotiation in good faith and the quinton doesn't know the other Modron T&Cs Redcloak has seen, so it can't state any differences. Hence, its offer to recite the T&Cs it requires. Positive confirmation to skip recitation lets it off the hook.

InvisibleBison

2022-08-20, 09:34 AM

Had to read through six pages to make sure nobody noticed this, and on the final page it was there.

Redcloak says in the first panel: "I've summoned weaker inhabitants of this plane before and the contract is standardized."

How would he know the contract terms are the same for quintons. Implication from previous contracts is not proof in my book. :confused:

Perhaps he was told that the contracts are standardized. I don't see why we should assume that Redcloak doesn't know what he's talking about here.

Peelee

2022-08-20, 09:35 AM

Perhaps he was told that the contracts are standardized. I don't see why we should assume that Redcloak doesn't know what he's talking about here.

Aye. There's no reason to assume he's wrong at the moment.

Skrilzz

2022-08-20, 10:23 AM

Aye. There's no reason to assume he's wrong at the moment.

Except for all the things you see happening on the page?

The entire page is dedicated to make fun of products and services not providing what is advertised.
Half the page is a bit about everyone clicking past EULA's and TOS', everyone knows how that works out.

Read the fine print, make it a life lesson.

Jasdoif

2022-08-20, 10:28 AM

Neither are, actually. WoF says "immune to most spells" any they lists spells that can affect it, but does not mention AMF (it does mention Dispel Magic). Forcecage has something like "similar to WoF ignores Dispel magic but is affected by these spells".What's extra exciting is that antimagic field (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) includes wall of force in its list of "certain spells" that remain unaffected by it...and then to see the individual spell descriptions, and as you mention wall of force (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) doesn't mention antimagic field in its own description at all.

Peelee

2022-08-20, 10:28 AM

Except for all the things you see happening on the page?

The entire page is dedicated to make fun of products and services not providing what is advertised.

It's not. That may be your interpretation, but if so, I disagree with your interpretation.

Laurentio III

2022-08-20, 10:29 AM

Except for all the things you see happening on the page?

The entire page is dedicated to make fun of products and services not providing what is advertised.
Half the page is a bit about everyone clicking past EULA's and TOS', everyone knows how that works out.

Read the fine print, make it a life lesson.
I'm divided. On the one hand, I think Redcloak is dedicated enough to the study of the issues surrounding the use of his spells to have studied UELAs in depth.
On the other hand, when Redcloak is under stress he usually makes big mistakes.
However, since the summoning of a Quinton was part of a contingency plan to be used immediately in the event of strong opponents, I think he took the precaution of studying the conditions in detail.
Otherwise, he would have been uncharacteristically reckless.

Xirdus

2022-08-20, 10:44 AM

Potatopeelerkin

2022-08-20, 10:56 AM

Aye. There's no reason to assume he's wrong at the moment.

Logically there isn't, no. I, personally, suspect he's wrong, just because if you're a character making decisions in a story you're usually wrong by default. Like how in a TV show when the characters have to make a difficult choice in the first ten minutes, whatever decision the protagonist makes is bound to backfire.

Alas, if only he'd listened the whole way though, the contract would have been standardised, and then there'd have been no reason to listen the whole way through. But since he chose not to listen, there must be something hidden in there after all.

That's where my money's lying, anyway. But it could also totally be a joke about T&C's and Xykon's impatience and nothing more.

KorvinStarmast

2022-08-20, 10:59 AM

Alas, if only he'd listened the whole way though, the contract would have been standardised after all, and then there'd have been no reason to listen the whole way through. But since he chose not to listen, there must be something hidden in there after all.
Schrödinger's ESLA. :smallcool:

Trixie_One

2022-08-20, 11:04 AM

You mean when Games Done Quick got big in the last couple of years.

No, I meant what I meant. For me, and many others, GDQ wasn't even a blip on the radar in terms of awareness until after Summoning Salt started showing up in youtube reccomendations.

super dark33

2022-08-20, 11:20 AM

Its not all about you, Reddy! the ad is for the Minions, not you!

HalfTangible

2022-08-20, 11:39 AM

Jervis

2022-08-20, 12:11 PM

I thought it was for teleportation?

To be fair conjuration has A LOT of stuff that can kill a story

danielxcutter

2022-08-20, 12:43 PM

Yeah, Conjuration is pretty much the everything school.

Thermophille

2022-08-20, 01:42 PM

You mean when Games Done Quick got big in the last couple of years.

I would have said Dream, but arguably he's tailgating speedrunning popularity, not contributing to it.

Neltharak

2022-08-20, 02:09 PM

I'm so excited that the denouement is approaching!

Xirdus

2022-08-20, 04:54 PM

No, I meant what I meant. For me, and many others, GDQ wasn't even a blip on the radar in terms of awareness until after Summoning Salt started showing up in youtube reccomendations.

"You and many others" could use a reality check. Salt only started doing his videos in 2017. By that time AGDQ had its 8th edition - 14th if you count SGDQ - and just broke $2 million dollars raised for charity in a single event as well as $10 million total.

Thermophille

2022-08-20, 05:19 PM

Looking at google search trends, it looks like speedrunning has been on a general upward trend since about 2013, with spikes every 6 months for major speedrunning events.

Now, there is a general upswell around 2017, which does match with Summoning Salt, but at the beginning of 2020, it starts going up way faster, which coincides with the release of Dream's manhunt videos, and reaches a massive peak during the dream speedrunning controversey, and has a pretty big valley after that, likely indicating that the bad taste it left in people's mouths damaged their interest in speedrunning as a whole. It seems to have stabilized since then, but at a much higher level than Summoning Salt's videos could be responsible for.

Trixie_One

2022-08-20, 06:13 PM

"You and many others" could use a reality check. Salt only started doing his videos in 2017. By that time AGDQ had its 8th edition - 14th if you count SGDQ - and just broke $2 million dollars raised for charity in a single event as well as $10 million total.

Crazy concept but individual existences do exist, and your own experiences will be different from many others. Online spaces contribute to this where it can be surprisingly easy to miss what is earth shattering news elsewhere.

I really do swear that I hadn't heard of the letters G D and Q in that particular order despite being active on the internet for a good two decades until after I saw it getting talked about in one of Salt's videos. I've seen enough comments to be sure this is a thing to say that's a common enough experience for him being the entry point to the subject to be worth a mention. So no it's not just me being some weird internet hermit.

I'm sure many people did get into it by GDQ, and now I am aware of it, I'm also aware it's a big deal. However, other entry points are common enough to not be outright dismissed like Summoning Salt or that whole mess with Dream.

arimareiji

2022-08-20, 06:33 PM

Crazy concept but individual existences do exist, and your own experiences will be different from many others. Online spaces contribute to this where it can be surprisingly easy to miss what is earth shattering news elsewhere.

I really do swear that I hadn't heard of the letters G D and Q in that particular order despite being active on the internet for a good two decades until after I saw it getting talked about in one of Salt's videos. I've seen enough comments to be sure this is a thing to say that's a common enough experience for him being the entry point to the subject to be worth a mention. So no it's not just me being some weird internet hermit.

I'm sure many people did get into it by GDQ, and now I am aware of it, I'm also aware it's a big deal. However, other entry points are common enough to not be outright dismissed like Summoning Salt or that whole mess with Dream.

Well said, and thank you - I still don't know what it is, and I imagine not unlikely the majority of people would say the same.

(To anyone tempted to enlighten me about how much I'm missing and/or what a Luddite I am, I appreciate the thought but please don't bother. I gave up on the vast bulk of pop culture coming up on two decades ago.)

Rinazina

2022-08-20, 06:47 PM

What's extra exciting is that antimagic field (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) includes wall of force in its list of "certain spells" that remain unaffected by it...and then to see the individual spell descriptions, and as you mention wall of force (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) doesn't mention antimagic field in its own description at all.

Thanks for this great catch!

then, I'm ready to bet.. not 4, not 11, but 20 quatloos that one of the wand acquired by Haley in Thinkertown, is a wand of dimension door (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html).

Psyren

2022-08-20, 07:31 PM

Neither are, actually. WoF says "immune to most spells" any they lists spells that can affect it, but does not mention AMF (it does mention Dispel Magic). Forcecage has something like "similar to WoF ignores Dispel magic but is affected by these spells".

The reference is found in AMF itself.

What's extra exciting is that antimagic field (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) includes wall of force in its list of "certain spells" that remain unaffected by it...and then to see the individual spell descriptions, and as you mention wall of force (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfForce.htm) doesn't mention antimagic field in its own description at all.

That clause appears to refer to "spells we didn't list here." An example of an unlisted spell that gets to defeat AMF would be Disjunction, or any Epic spell.

Xirdus

2022-08-20, 08:34 PM

Trixie_One yesterday:

it's not really been popularized on the internet as a whole since Summoning Salt got big in the last couple of years.

Trixie_One today:

I'm sure many people did get into it by GDQ, and now I am aware of it, I'm also aware it's a big deal.

I hope you agree the two statements are quite different.

I didn't come here to argue. I just wanted to clarify a few things and give recognition where it's due. Sure, sure, everyone's experience is different and everyone gets introduced to every bit of culture in a different way. My first contact with Game of Thrones was the "hold the door" quote, for example. I totally understand that. But... your initial post wasn't a personal story. It looked very much like you were making an objective statement that it was Summoning Salt who brought speedrunning to the masses. And if evaluated objectively, that statement simply doesn't match the facts. Especially considering you were pointing at speedrun as an example of short-lived fad that OOTS makes reference to. We're nearing 10 years of speedrunning being a popular trend among gamers, by any metric other than "speedrunning only took off with Dream and is now effectively dead".

Normally I'd apologize for any feelings hurt but now I have a topical excuse of roleplaying as a being of pure law who cares about truth far more than good manners and such :biggrin: I swear, law gets persecuted by neutral goods on the internet even more than evil. The other day I was downvoted on Reddit for correcting someone's grammar mistake!

I wish you a good day.

Ruck

2022-08-20, 09:04 PM

There's been plenty of those kind of jokes in the strip to the point it didn't jump out at me at all. In the same strip you've got a joke about speedrunning. Sure that's been around since Doom but it's not really been popularized on the internet as a whole since Summoning Salt got big in the last couple of years.

Crazy concept but individual existences do exist, and your own experiences will be different from many others. Online spaces contribute to this where it can be surprisingly easy to miss what is earth shattering news elsewhere.

Sure, but since the point is "this thing got big before you necessarily heard of it," it's not a criticism of you or your experiences, just of the facts as stated.

I've barely heard of Summoning Salt myself, but I've been engaged with speedrunners the last couple of years, and I know they were going well before that.

Kish

2022-08-20, 11:43 PM

If the wording wasn’t meant to be important they could have started this with Xykon complaining how long that took and Redcloak summarising it.
If Rich hadn't meant to imply that Redcloak will be critically screwed over by a EULA joke, he could have phrased the joke differently.

This is the new Sphinx Pox.

arimareiji

2022-08-21, 12:09 AM

Sure, but since the point is "this thing got big before you necessarily heard of it," it's not a criticism of you or your experiences, just of the facts as stated.

I've barely heard of Summoning Salt myself, but I've been engaged with speedrunners the last couple of years, and I know they were going well before that.

I don't know anything about either subject, so I have no way to guess how probable or improbable it is for someone to become aware of one before the other.

But I don't think "it's not a criticism of you or your experiences" is well-founded, considering the second quote you cite was a direct response to

"You and many others" could use a reality check. Salt only started doing his videos in 2017. By that time AGDQ had its 8th edition - 14th if you count SGDQ - and just broke $2 million dollars raised for charity in a single event as well as $10 million total.

I can imagine it being possible that it wasn't consciously intended pejoratively or as criticism, but it came across that way - and it's not unreasonable to respond to it as such.

Laurentio III

2022-08-21, 04:48 AM

If Rich hadn't meant to imply that Redcloak will be critically screwed over by a EULA joke, he could have phrased the joke differently.

This is the new Sphinx Pox.
Err... Rich Burlew. His love for non sequitur gags is second only to Eiichirō Oda's love for pointless character's design.

Charity322

2022-08-21, 07:52 AM

"Is never same as ad once you start playing anyway."

This. So this!

Laurentio III

2022-08-21, 08:22 AM

"Is never same as ad once you start playing anyway."

This. So this!
As a matter of fact, I'm in the habit of giving one star and a "Unfaithful advertising" review before uninstalling.

By the way, Redcloak. You "DENY!", not "skip", an advertise. Skipping alone can be interpreted as skipping the ad and going to the download page, if not installing it directly.
Never seen on a smartphone, but several times on PCs.

KorvinStarmast

2022-08-21, 09:20 AM

(To anyone tempted to enlighten me about how much I'm missing and/or what a Luddite I am, I appreciate the thought but please don't bother. I gave up on the vast bulk of pop culture coming up on two decades ago.) Likewise.

then, I'm ready to bet.. not 4, not 11, but 20 quatloos that one of the wand acquired by Haley in Thinkertown, is a wand of dimension door (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0970.html). Plausible.

I just wanted to clarify a few things the only speed running I am familiar with was rift runs in Diablo III. Which I recently uninstalled. I have no idea what you guys are talking about.

I've barely heard of Summoning Salt myself, but I've been engaged with speedrunners the last couple of years, and I know they were going well before that. Can you translate into normal English what a speedrunner is? :smallconfused:

Laurentio III

2022-08-21, 09:29 AM

Can you translate into normal English what a speedrunner is? :smallconfused:
A player playing a self-imposed challenge to complete a game (or a similar task) in the fastest way, aka "speedrun".
The "%" is how much of the game you actually play. You can finish the first Mario games skipping several levels, so you end it but actually didn't play everything.
It usually include using shortcuts, exploiting bugs or unconventional gaming.
As an example, some car racing games can be shortened by intentionally going off road in specific spots, or running backward.

The MunchKING

2022-08-21, 09:31 AM

There's been plenty of those kind of jokes in the strip to the point it didn't jump out at me at all. In the same strip you've got a joke about speedrunning. Sure that's been around since Doom but it's not really been popularized on the internet as a whole since Summoning Salt got big in the last couple of years.

I'd heard it'd been around since at least the first Super Mario Bros. a good 8 years before DOOM.

My result may be atypical, I understand, but I'd been hearing about Mario related speedrunning and a few other games long before Summoning Salt was a thing. I don't even know what it is.

EDIT: I mean XKCD was making jokes about Internet speedrun videos back in 2010. Definitely further back than a "couple of years".

Laurentio III

2022-08-21, 09:36 AM

I'd heard it'd been around since at least the first Super Mario Bros. a good 8 years before DOOM.
"The Wizard" (1989) is a movie about a kid speedrunning Super Mario (1985) in a tournament, so it's about as popular as we need.
It's just too old to be well know today.

Peelee

2022-08-21, 09:39 AM

The MunchKING

2022-08-21, 09:39 AM

"The Wizard" (1989) is a movie about a kid speedrunning Super Mario (1985) in a tournament, so it's about as popular as we need.
It's just too old to be well know today.

But...

I LOVE The Power Glove. It's so BAD.

Laurentio III

2022-08-21, 09:44 AM

But...

I LOVE The Power Glove. It's so BAD.
You dare besmirch the Power Glove?!?
I hate to be that guy but... it was awful as a user interface.
Good for self-induced fantasies of power were you kill the school's bully.

The MunchKING

2022-08-21, 09:49 AM

No, no... Bad was Good. It was the 80s. :D

Also, I really did like it for having fun with your imagination of a cool wrist mounted computer (Hey, it was the 80s) moreso than anything it actually did with the NES.

KorvinStarmast

2022-08-21, 09:56 AM

A player playing a self-imposed challenge to complete a game (or a similar task) in the fastest way, aka "speedrun".
The "%" is how much of the game you actually play. You can finish the first Mario games skipping several levels, so you end it but actually didn't play everything.
It usually include using shortcuts, exploiting bugs or unconventional gaming.
As an example, some car racing games can be shortened by intentionally going off road in specific spots, or running backward. Thanks. I went to a wikipedia page and read about the history of this hobby, and it goes back quite a ways, but it's also linked to games I simply do not play since I am not a PS/Xbox/Nintendo game player. (Granted, I played a bit of Pacman and DonkeyKong when they were arcade games, as well as Space Invaders, Asteroids and Missile Command, but those days are for me long gone).

Laurentio III

2022-08-21, 10:28 AM

ff7hero

2022-08-21, 12:11 PM

Most important, a lot of these games were neverending, usually looping back to the start potentially forever. A true speedrun requires the game to have an end, or at least a goal that can be documented.

Donkey Kong definitely has a "final level" and I think Pac Man does as well. Although when people compete over those games it tends to be about High Scores rather than Speedruns (obligatory Billy Mitchell/King of Kong reference here).

Laurentio III

2022-08-21, 12:28 PM

Donkey Kong definitely has a "final level" and I think Pac Man does as well.
I said "most", not all.
By the way, Donkey Kong looped at increasing speed until it required superpowers to play, so it "ends" when you fail, but technically is endless.
EDIT: No, it's not endless, by virtue of an error. At stage 22th the timer glitches giving you too few seconds to finish the stage.

Pac Man had no intended end but due to a bug it is impossible to go further that level 256. The map is corrupted and some pills you need to gather are unreacheable.

The point is, at that age of videogaming endless mode was pretty common. Several games, like Asteroids, where marathons game. You became the champion by staying awake and concentrated until you die of exhaustion.

Although when people compete over those games it tends to be about High Scores rather than Speedruns (obligatory Billy Mitchell/King of Kong reference here).
High Scores are there for a reason!
...
...
Bragging. The reason is bragging.

arimareiji

2022-08-21, 12:42 PM

the only speed running I am familiar with was rift runs in Diablo III. Which I recently uninstalled. I have no idea what you guys are talking about.
There's also "sprinting for the bathroom after an ill-advised Taco-Bell-eating contest"...

The "%" is how much of the game you actually play. You can finish the first Mario games skipping several levels, so you end it but actually didn't play everything.
Thank you, I'd been wondering about the "Any%". (^_^)b

No, no... Bad was Good. It was the 80s. :D
Having recently gone through some old 80s fare after being tempted by the nostalgic time capsule that is Weird Al's UHF (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ega5Rcct2s), I can attest to the truth of this.

Sharing the overwhelming majority of 80s fare with someone is very akin to opening a bottle of something spoiled, taking a whiff and making a face, then handing it to someone so they can also smell how spectacularly awful it is. (^_~)

Fish

2022-08-21, 03:04 PM

If Rich hadn't meant to imply that Redcloak will be critically screwed over by a EULA joke, he could have phrased the joke differently.
He could have meant to imply Redcloak will be screwed over by persnickety adherence to the wording of the arrangement, which I think is highly likely:

“I want you to accompany us while we search” — the modron has not agreed to assist in the search, only to accompany.

“Assist us in restraining hostile creatures” — it won’t kill, and it won’t restrain non-hostile creatures.

“I want you to keep a mental record of the rooms” — Redcloak didn’t ask the modron to share its mental record or to interpret it in any fashion.

Carl

2022-08-21, 04:27 PM

Not really, they intend to stop if they find the Gate, rather than keep exploring. So this is more akin to a no-manip run. Or possibly a blind playthrough since they don't know the big twist.

To be fair, a) when Xykon's against an actual threat, often he's facing multiple opponents so blasting gets a bit more efficient, and b) Redcloak actually uses a lot of non-blasting spells. He's probably one of the best "cleric as caster" examples in the game. (Durkon is more cleric-as-gish, which also includes physical combat.)

Of course, if Sunny catches the Quinton in their AMF it won't be able to make any walls anyways.

There's also "sprinting for the bathroom after an ill-advised Taco-Bell-eating contest"...

Thank you, I'd been wondering about the "Any%". (^_^)b

Having recently gone through some old 80s fare after being tempted by the nostalgic time capsule that is Weird Al's UHF (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ega5Rcct2s), I can attest to the truth of this.

Sharing the overwhelming majority of 80s fare with someone is very akin to opening a bottle of something spoiled, taking a whiff and making a face, then handing it to someone so they can also smell how spectacularly awful it is. (^_~)

I really recommend checking out Summoning Salt's videos if your curious, some of the stuff speedrunners do is kind of insane in the precision required. Also the persistence somtimes. Probably the two videos i'd recommend the most are his video on Super Mario Bros 1's 4-2 level, and his video on Mario Kart 64's Choco Mountain. The first really covers the essence of speed running through the lens of a single level well, whilst the second overs the kind of insane glitches speedrunners will take advantage of and the sheer persistance required to get it to all line up somtimes, (multiple tens of thousands of attempts).

Rrmcklin

2022-08-21, 05:48 PM

He could have meant to imply Redcloak will be screwed over by persnickety adherence to the wording of the arrangement, which I think is highly likely:

“I want you to accompany us while we search” — the modron has not agreed to assist in the search, only to accompany.

“Assist us in restraining hostile creatures” — it won’t kill, and it won’t restrain non-hostile creatures.

“I want you to keep a mental record of the rooms” — Redcloak didn’t ask the modron to share its mental record or to interpret it in any fashion.

All possible but as I said early, how would that advance the story? Like, at some point the bad guys have to advance, and a second stage of them getting stalled contributes... what, exactly here?

You don't even need all of that to buy the good guys time; from the sound of it their scowering will still take awhile if Redcloak is actually intent on just starting over from scratch.

alceryes

2022-08-21, 07:07 PM

A player playing a self-imposed challenge to complete a game (or a similar task) in the fastest way, aka "speedrun".
The "%" is how much of the game you actually play. You can finish the first Mario games skipping several levels, so you end it but actually didn't play everything.
It usually include using shortcuts, exploiting bugs or unconventional gaming.
As an example, some car racing games can be shortened by intentionally going off road in specific spots, or running backward.

Specifically, "speedrun any %," is getting to the end credits of the game as fast as possible. This usually entails going through very little of the actual game (thus the any %). Speedrunners use glitches and shortcuts to just get there as fast as possible.

Fish

2022-08-21, 07:28 PM

All possible but as I said early, how would that advance the story?
Easy. It exposes a rift between Redcloak’s habit of ineffective overthinking and Xykon’s indulgent improvisation. They’re due to break apart over something.

Ruck

2022-08-21, 10:12 PM

Can you translate into normal English what a speedrunner is? :smallconfused:

In short, speedrunners play video games and try to beat them as fast as possible. Games usually have different categories-- anything goes; no glitches allowed; 100% completion; etc.

Speedrun.com (https://www.speedrun.com/) has a pretty thorough archive of speedrunning records and videos for proof of the runs.

There's also "tool-assisted speedrunning (https://tasvideos.org/)," which is basically writing a script that plays the game frame-perfectly to finish it as quickly as possible. Those are interesting just to see how much a game can be stretched and broken, but I find watching real people run the game in real time more interesting.

I've never heard of a summoning salt but I've been on the internet for several decades now, and I can assure you that speed runs were popular well before the last couple of years.

Heck, I remember when I was in college, more than 20 years ago, I had a friend who was proud of being able to speedrun Super Mario Bros. in under eight minutes. (The current record is 4:55'798".)

Donkey Kong definitely has a "final level" and I think Pac Man does as well. Although when people compete over those games it tends to be about High Scores rather than Speedruns (obligatory Billy Mitchell/King of Kong reference here).

Ha, right. I said I've been following speedrunners here and there for the last couple of years, but I nearly forgot I saw The King of Kong in theaters 15 years ago. Probably my first significant exposure to the speedrunning community.

Another story I enjoy (https://www.polygon.com/2018/1/29/16944736/atari-dragster-game-world-record-banned): The official record for the Atari 2600 game Dragster was found 35 years later to be physically impossible; it turned out the only proof of that record was that the record-holder wrote into Activision's fan newsletter claiming it in 1982. Modern speedrunners analyzed the game code and figured out that even a frame-perfect play could not have finished the game as quickly as the record claimed.

Specifically, "speedrun any %," is getting to the end credits of the game as fast as possible. This usually entails going through very little of the actual game (thus the any %). Speedrunners use glitches and shortcuts to just get there as fast as possible.

Heck, some any% runs don't even really beat the game per se but just trigger some glitch in the game that launches the end credits. (I think Super Mario Bros. 3 and Super Mario World both have these possibilities, for two examples.)

Grey Watcher

2022-08-21, 10:15 PM

Thanks. I went to a wikipedia page and read about the history of this hobby, and it goes back quite a ways, but it's also linked to games I simply do not play since I am not a PS/Xbox/Nintendo game player. (Granted, I played a bit of Pacman and DonkeyKong when they were arcade games, as well as Space Invaders, Asteroids and Missile Command, but those days are for me long gone).

While console games are the most popular, there are plenty of people who speedrun PC games (of all genres) or cabinet arcade games (usually via emulation, since the original hardware is both rare and cumbersome). I'm sure if you dig, someone out there has done speedruns of all the titles you mention. Probably at least a few someone's since those all fairly well-known titles. I mean, I get that watching other people play video games, even playing them well is not everyone's idea of a fun time, but it's out there, I'm sure. (And honestly, even if you haven't played the game in question, some of them can be fun to watch anyway.)

arimareiji

2022-08-22, 02:33 AM

I really recommend checking out Summoning Salt's videos if your curious, some of the stuff speedrunners do is kind of insane in the precision required. Also the persistence somtimes. Probably the two videos i'd recommend the most are his video on Super Mario Bros 1's 4-2 level, and his video on Mario Kart 64's Choco Mountain. The first really covers the essence of speed running through the lens of a single level well, whilst the second overs the kind of insane glitches speedrunners will take advantage of and the sheer persistance required to get it to all line up somtimes, (multiple tens of thousands of attempts).

I appreciate the thought, but I gave up on the vast bulk of pop culture coming up on two decades ago.

Carl

2022-08-22, 04:53 AM

I appreciate the thought, but I gave up on the vast bulk of pop culture coming up on two decades ago.

Fair enough, personally i don't have any interest in speedrunning myself, i just enjoy watching the crazy nonsense they can pull off.

Psychoboy

2022-08-22, 09:47 AM

Oh gods... they have in-game ads.

These guys might be more evil than the devils.

danielxcutter

2022-08-22, 10:18 AM

Oh gods... they have in-game ads.

These guys might be more evil than the devils.

I assume devils do even worse things, like NFTs.

bunsen_h

2022-08-22, 11:10 AM

While console games are the most popular, there are plenty of people who speedrun PC games (of all genres) or cabinet arcade games (usually via emulation, since the original hardware is both rare and cumbersome). I'm sure if you dig, someone out there has done speedruns of all the titles you mention. Probably at least a few someone's since those all fairly well-known titles. I mean, I get that watching other people play video games, even playing them well is not everyone's idea of a fun time, but it's out there, I'm sure. (And honestly, even if you haven't played the game in question, some of them can be fun to watch anyway.)

Back In The Day, I spent a while on Sword of Fargoal trying to beat the game with a character as low-level as possible, evading rather than fighting monsters and otherwise avoiding collecting XP. It was a way of bringing a bit of challenge back to a game that I'd gotten somewhat bored with, but not enough to quit playing.

ratfox

2022-08-22, 11:30 AM

As always, Greyview is right. Why are the ads always so *obviously* different from the game? Like, do they think you won't notice the game you're playing appears to have no connection, game-wise, art-style or visually to what the ad claimed?

Yeah, in the ads, the graphics contain so many spheres, but in the game they end up looking very much like blocks.

ratfox

2022-08-22, 12:22 PM

Yep. It is possible to be so smart that one outsmarts one's own self.
Indeed, it has played against Roy in the past ("Which of these two gates...")

mashlagoo1982

2022-08-22, 02:42 PM

Would a quinton be able to passively notice the swap-over trap or would it need to activate some ability (if it has one)?

I do expect that before long RC and X will be made more aware something is up with the layout.

The exact wording of "Also, I want... blah blah..., and the physical dimension and orientation of every rom we visit." may exclude the inclusion of swap-over trap. I could see a quinton revealing the swap-over information as secondary information when/if RC notices the dimensions are impossible.

The behavior of Team Evil may even encourage the quinton to disregard bringing it up. The quinton may view TE willingness to just walk through as an confirmation of their awareness of the swap-over presence. It could go the other way too, but I am leaning toward the quinton not bringing it up as soon as it becomes aware of the swap-over.

Edit: Maybe the quinton would bring up the swap-over on the grounds that RC stated he wanted to search every corridor as quickly as possible. It could make sense that the quinton would bring up the swap-over on grounds of finishing the current corridor before teleporting to another location.

RblDiver

2022-08-22, 04:26 PM

bunsen_h

2022-08-22, 04:31 PM

:redcloak: "I would like you to accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon"

Are the dungeons behind the doors in the canyon?

Laurentio III

2022-08-22, 04:55 PM

:redcloak: "I would like you to accompany us while we search the dungeons behind the doors in this canyon"

Are the dungeons behind the doors in the canyon?
"We are not in the designed dungeon anymore. Please retreat and enter a different door."
"Wait... where are we, then?"
"This is beyond the contracted service. Please retreat and enter a different door."
"... I'd like to ridiscuss the contract."
"Your liking has been recorded. Please retreat and enter a different door."

mjasghar

2022-08-22, 05:44 PM

Has it been established before that Earth is one of the many dead worlds that the gods have tried? I mean, if the roaches are referring to us as the "Ancients," it implies we were somewhere there in the past! (Or at least that some other similar civilization came about before)

No - the longest they’ve kept a system going is a thousand years or so. The tech level is seemingly set at the start though there can be improvements.
Secondly, they all require active worship of the gods of the pantheons and certainly not the monotheism we have or even the other pantheistic religions.
Thirdly, we know about the Greek/ Roman gods which in the Oots multiverse is gone (or at least the extension of those pantheons into the Oots part of the larger D&d multiverse)

Ortho

2022-08-22, 06:04 PM

Reboot

2022-08-22, 06:05 PM

"We are not in the designed dungeon anymore. Please retreat and enter a different door."
"Wait... where are we, then?"
"This is beyond the contracted service. Please retreat and enter a different door."
"... I'd like to ridiscuss the contract."
"Your liking has been recorded. Please retreat and enter a different door."
...you know, this is the first way of the quinton telling TE about the swapovers in this thread which strikes me as sufficiently Lawful to work for me.

mjasghar

2022-08-22, 06:05 PM

According to Word of Giant, Earth will never show up (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?331522-OOTS-945-The-Discussion-Thread/page8&p=17004853#post17004853). So Earth is not one of the dead worlds, no.

In addition outsiders minds are wiped and they are likely redesigned as part of each new reality - movie snack or cyberpunk animal universe would have needed their own looking outsiders

Ruck

2022-08-22, 06:31 PM

"We are not in the designed dungeon anymore. Please retreat and enter a different door."
"Wait... where are we, then?"
"This is beyond the contracted service. Please retreat and enter a different door."
"... I'd like to ridiscuss the contract."
"Your liking has been recorded. Please retreat and enter a different door."

Heh heh, I got a good laugh out of picturing this.

brian 333

2022-08-22, 06:33 PM

Are the pantheons the same every time? Sure, they may buddy up on the same team every time, but Dragon and Timat may join up whenever they see a dragon-themed universe brewing, and perhaps Nergal and Hel might join forces in the next incarnation if they can see mutual advantages.

Perhaps 'Eastern Pantheon's is just a convenient label that would make sense to Stickverse characters who know of the other three.

G.I. Joe-verse might only have two pantheons while Babylon 5-verse has a half-dozen 'new pantheons' trying to survive the onslaught of the two surviving 'old pantheons'.

What evidence is there that the gods always, or even usually, form the same factions? Only quiddity seems to differentiate them, but I see no requirement that it always be so.