Regarding ODD halfbreeds

[ironkid]

Like many of us, I'm currently reading the latest UU, and it came to my attention the way haldbreeds are being treated featurewise:


CHILDREN OF DIFFERENT HUMANOID KINDS

If you’d like to play the child of such a wondrous pairing, choose two Race options that are Humanoid to represent your parents. Then determine which of those Race options provides your game traits: Size, Speed, and special traits. You can then mix and match visual characteristics—color, ear shape, and the like—of the two options. For example, if your character has a halfling and a gnome parent, you might choose Halfling for your game traits and then decide that your character has the pointed ears
that are characteristic of a gnome.

Personally, Im not loving that if you play a (for instance) half elf you're essentially a skinned human (or elf). The alternative I think would work best is that you get to chose ONE feature from EACH of your parents - for instance, a human/elf hybrid could choose Versatile from the human side and Elven Lineage from the elf side. Of course everyone would get the strongest one from each, but it'll be counterbalanced by just having two of them.

What do you think?

[Luccan]

It's certainly a better solution than what they came up with. I was really interested to see what they did when I heard the rumor of being able to play a half-anything and the stuff in the playtest is disappointing and dull

[Segev]

Like many of us, I'm currently reading the latest UU, and it came to my attention the way haldbreeds are being treated featurewise:



Personally, Im not loving that if you play a (for instance) half elf you're essentially a skinned human (or elf). The alternative I think would work best is that you get to chose ONE feature from EACH of your parents - for instance, a human/elf hybrid could choose Versatile from the human side and Elven Lineage from the elf side. Of course everyone would get the strongest one from each, but it'll be counterbalanced by just having two of them.

What do you think?

I agree. I don't want to play an elf cosplaying as a human, or a human cosplaying as an elf. I want to play a half-elf, if I choose to have an elven and human parent for my PC.

If implemented the way you suggest, ironkid, I think the best way to do it would've been to assign one or more traits for each race as "half-breed" traits. That is, traits that half-breeds get. If you're playing a half-human/half-elf, then, you'd get all the half-breed traits from human and from elf, and only those traits.

[Dork_Forge]

I don't like it, it feels lazy and like they're trying to avoid offending someone. This actually really offended my partner, who now feels like they really are equating race to real world ethnicity by removing default options, and feels like no actual options is discouraging different people having children together.

[Greywander]

I'd like to see a more robust race-mixing system myself, but it requires a lot of standardization across races. For example, a simple rule might be that halfbreeds get two base races but don't take a subrace, but that runs into the problem that not every race has a subrace, and the balance between the base race and subrace isn't the same across all races (since it doesn't need to be; only the race as a whole needs to be balanced).

If homebrew is on the table, I think the best option currently available for making a mixed race character is my very own Simple Custom Race (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?636942-Simple-Custom-Race). The whole schtick of the simple custom race is being able to cherrypick a small number of racial features from any race, making it a sort of build-your-own-race. One of the things it excels at is assembling new races that don't currently exist in 5e, and considering half-elves and half-orcs are counted as races we could count other mixed races the same.

[Psyren]

If they let you mix and match traits from your parents (even swapping just one), you could get some powerful combinations, and they'd need to spend a lot of design time on checking them all. I could see a lot of "half-orcs" swapping Adrenaline Rush for Angelic Flight for instance as it is almost strictly better.

With that said, I wouldn't mind a feat that lets you pick up one racial from your other parent. Needing to spend a precious feat on it would alleviate most of the balance concerns.

[Greywander]

Yeah, that's also one of the weaknesses of my simple custom race. Being able to choose traits freely means someone can just take the best traits. I like the flexibility it provides, but it wouldn't work as official content. As homebrew, my simple custom race defaults to requiring DM approval. Any official option is at least implied to be legal by default. Feats are technically optional, but the default assumption is that they're permitted unless the DM specifically says they're not.

[Segev]

If they let you mix and match traits from your parents (even swapping just one), you could get some powerful combinations, and they'd need to spend a lot of design time on checking them all. I could see a lot of "half-orcs" swapping Adrenaline Rush for Angelic Flight for instance as it is almost strictly better.

With that said, I wouldn't mind a feat that lets you pick up one racial from your other parent. Needing to spend a precious feat on it would alleviate most of the balance concerns.


Yeah, that's also one of the weaknesses of my simple custom race. Being able to choose traits freely means someone can just take the best traits. I like the flexibility it provides, but it wouldn't work as official content. As homebrew, my simple custom race defaults to requiring DM approval. Any official option is at least implied to be legal by default. Feats are technically optional, but the default assumption is that they're permitted unless the DM specifically says they're not.
This is why I said they'd need to design it with half-breeding in mind, and label certain racial traits in every half-breedable race as traits that the half-breeds get. Keep the ones that might be overpowered in combination with other races' traits as exclusive to pure-blooded elves/ardlings/orcs/whatever, and give halfbreeds every halfbreed trait from both parent races. This could be a much easier balancing exercise, but it does take attention to detail and future-proofing.

I am not even sure making you spend your background feat on "any trait from your other parent" would work, since that eats into the wrong part of your build resources, and still just means you wind up taking "the most powerful" racial trait. Plus, the traits as written are clearly not broken up with any eye towards the individual power of them, but rather just to thematic granularity.

[Brookshw]

Are dragonborn egg layers? Can I hatch dwarves?

[Psyren]

This is why I said they'd need to design it with half-breeding in mind, and label certain racial traits in every half-breedable race as traits that the half-breeds get.

I wouldn't mind this but again, this would be a lot of design work. And you'd need to repeat it for every single humanoid outside of core, and then again for every new humanoid you ever print.

Whereas "spend a feat for one trait" just means they make sure that a given humanoid racial trait is generally not more powerful than a feat - something they're likely already doing.

[Segev]

I wouldn't mind this but again, this would be a lot of design work. And you'd need to repeat it for every single humanoid outside of core, and then again for every new humanoid you ever print.

Whereas "spend a feat for one trait" just means they make sure that a given humanoid racial trait is generally not more powerful than a feat - something they're likely already doing.

Hm. If they're going to do it that way, perhaps it is better to give every race a list of 1st level racial feats, and a choice of 1 of those as a trait. Then, halfbreeds can choose one race to be, and pick their racial feat from the other.

[Dork_Forge]

I wouldn't mind this but again, this would be a lot of design work. And you'd need to repeat it for every single humanoid outside of core, and then again for every new humanoid you ever print.


On a very real level, this should not be a barrier to not doing something. They're game designers, it's their job. Given that their approach to 5E design has been 'let's use it as UA and rip a bunch of stuff out' the least they can do is put in the appropriate work.

The stopping point should be whether it's good for the game, not whether it's hard for them to initially figure out. And given the rampant success of 5E, money is not a barrier either.

[Veldrenor]

The Level Up supplement handles half-races by giving you the base race features of one parent and subrace features from the other parent. WotC could implement the same. That'd be easier to balance than allowing the mix-and-match of any and all racial features, although it looks like WotC is changing the way it handles subraces so that may not work with their intended design direction.

[Psyren]

On a very real level, this should not be a barrier to not doing something. They're game designers, it's their job. Given that their approach to 5E design has been 'let's use it as UA and rip a bunch of stuff out' the least they can do is put in the appropriate work.

The stopping point should be whether it's good for the game, not whether it's hard for them to initially figure out. And given the rampant success of 5E, money is not a barrier either.

In theory it shouldn't. In practice... yeah.

[Dork_Forge]

It's a little weird they decided some subraces matter, whilst some don't...

[Luccan]

The Level Up supplement handles half-races by giving you the base race features of one parent and subrace features from the other parent. WotC could implement the same. That'd be easier to balance than allowing the mix-and-match of any and all racial features, although it looks like WotC is changing the way it handles subraces so that may not work with their intended design direction.

Based on MotM I think Subraces aren't a thing anymore. former subraces in that book just had a "you are treated as x" feature

[Psyren]

Based on MotM I think Subraces aren't a thing anymore. former subraces in that book just had a "you are treated as x" feature

Instead of subraces, certain races have specific options/permutations they can access through one of their features. We saw this before in MPMM with Aasimar, Eladrin and Shifters etc., and now we're seeing it here in the core revision.

[Luccan]

Instead of subraces, certain races have specific options/permutations they can access through one of their features. We saw this before in MPMM with Aasimar, Eladrin and Shifters etc., and now we're seeing it here in the core revision.

Ah, right, that was in the doc. The races weren't particularly exciting for me (except the half-ancestry rules) so it slipped my mind. Still I'm pretty sure that's how MotM handled it, which in retrospect means there's currently a third way being considered for how subraces work going forward

[Segev]

Instead of subraces, certain races have specific options/permutations they can access through one of their features. We saw this before in MPMM with Aasimar, Eladrin and Shifters etc., and now we're seeing it here in the core revision.

So... they have subraces. They're just called "lineages" instead of "subraces," now.

[KorvinStarmast]

They should get rid of sub-races entirely. (Except Genasi, due to the four elements thing as an core, overriding metaphysics issue)
Don't need two kinds of dwarves
Don't need innumerable kinds of elves
Don't need three kinds of aasimar
Don't need three kinds of tieflings
Hell, we don't need tieflings at all, but I know some folks like them)

The 'mix and match' for a PC who comes from two different lineages could be done right, but why not make it a random roll?

"OK, dad was a goliath/orc/air genasi, mom was a halfling, roll for which trait(s) you got from each"

And then play that character.

[Segev]

They should get rid of sub-races entirely. (Except Genasi, due to the four elements thing as an core, overriding metaphysics issue)

The 'mix and match' for a PC who comes from two different lineages could be done right, but why not make it a random roll?

"OK, dad was a goliath/orc/air genasi, mom was a halfling, roll for which trait(s) you got from each"

And then play that character.

You'd like 2e Tieflings!

But no, they're barely still allowing randomness for your stats and hp anymore. And I don't blame them, as much as I like rolling my stats and hp. Letting people play the character they conceived, rather than having to roll to see if their racial traits match up, is important to the kind of game D&D wants to be these days.

If it were still the roguelike meat grinder where you roll up a pile of PCs so you can just bring in the next one when this one dies, rolling for random traits works fine. It doesn't work so well when you're building a character with a pre-established concept.


The big problem is that they need to double down on the "bold moves" of early 5e with racial features, now, making them really cool and defining, since they've made the statline utterly independent of them and lost that as a way to differentiate or make statements about the norms of the race.

Much as it's mostly a joke when people say it, I am not sure we're not approaching a point where WotC just eliminates stats altogether, especially if we keep having decisions be made for reasons other than supporting gameplay. You just have your proficiency bonus, and some thing's you're proficient in, some things you're double proficient in, and maybe some things you're triple proficient in (to keep the DC scaling as it currently is).

[Psyren]

So... they have subraces. They're just called "lineages" instead of "subraces," now.

Yeah it's primarily a presentation thing.

The difference can be seen most starkly in the Gnome entry (Forest vs. Rock.) They consolidate all the "subrace" differences to fit into the table, so that nominally there is only one ability - Gnomish
Lineage - separating the two versions of gnome. That one ability contains the cantrip and spell, and the ASI difference is of course gone.


They should get rid of sub-races entirely. (Except Genasi, due to the four elements thing as an core, overriding metaphysics issue)
Don't need two kinds of dwarves
Don't need innumerable kinds of elves
Don't need three kinds of aasimar
Don't need three kinds of tieflings
Hell, we don't need tieflings at all, but I know some folks like them)

The 'mix and match' for a PC who comes from two different lineages could be done right, but why not make it a random roll?

"OK, dad was a goliath/orc/air genasi, mom was a halfling, roll for which trait(s) you got from each"

And then play that character.

I'm sure there are DMs who would okay the idea of you getting something (or even more than one thing) mechanically from your other parent. But it's useful to establish that that would require a houserule as it protects things like AL.

[Segev]

Yeah it's primarily a presentation thing.

The difference can be seen most starkly in the Gnome entry (Forest vs. Rock.) They consolidate all the "subrace" differences to fit into the table, so that nominally there is only one ability - Gnomish
Lineage - separating the two versions of gnome. That one ability contains the cantrip and spell, and the ASI difference is of course gone.

Yeah, and I think it's a silly bit of failed sleight of hand. Especially since the table is harder to read than the multiple bullet points. I honestly missed that forest gnomes still had minor illusion when I was explicitly looking for it, because it's crammed in with limited visual separation from the lengthy paragraph about speak with animals. I like that they just flat out get the spell, now, though I know some friends of mine will be upset because they don't like it being "a spell." I do think more racial features should explicitly call out that they can cast these without components; it'd probably solve that "problem" for those friends of mine, and honestly would make sense for a magical-biology thing. The old (sp) tag was useful in 3e for a number of reasons.

Also, the fact that rock gnomes have a cultural trait that's been shoehorned into a weird application of prestidigitation is an odd choice given that they've been ostensibly separating culture from race. That said, the fact that they've firmly defined what the construct can do as "one of the tricks of prestidigitation" is a good thing.

[Imbalance]

Are dragonborn egg layers? Can I hatch dwarves?

Hatch them? Think of the omelets!:smallwink:

[Segev]

Hatch them? Think of the omelets!:smallwink:

I don't really want my omelets to have beards. :smallyuk::smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Yeah, and I think it's a silly bit of failed sleight of hand. Especially since the table is harder to read than the multiple bullet points. I honestly missed that forest gnomes still had minor illusion when I was explicitly looking for it, because it's crammed in with limited visual separation from the lengthy paragraph about speak with animals. I like that they just flat out get the spell, now, though I know some friends of mine will be upset because they don't like it being "a spell." I do think more racial features should explicitly call out that they can cast these without components; it'd probably solve that "problem" for those friends of mine, and honestly would make sense for a magical-biology thing. The old (sp) tag was useful in 3e for a number of reasons.

Also, the fact that rock gnomes have a cultural trait that's been shoehorned into a weird application of prestidigitation is an odd choice given that they've been ostensibly separating culture from race. That said, the fact that they've firmly defined what the construct can do as "one of the tricks of prestidigitation" is a good thing.

Eh, I think having one clear space that says "this is where you look to see the only differences between Rock and Forest Gnomes side by side" is a good thing. Sure the table looks ugly in the UA, but I'm confident it will look cleaner in the final book. (Shifter and Eladrin lineages have a lot of text too, but MPMM managed that okay.)

[Stangler]

I may be in the minority but I think the new system for both halfbreeds and subraces is fine as is. I think there will be more to discuss if/when they start talking about race specific feats though.

The idea of a mix and match system is far more difficult to get right in terms of balance and I am ok with them not trying to do that. Like others said it is ripe for homebrew rules.

[togapika]

Are dragonborn egg layers? Can I hatch dwarves?

He he he.... Dwagonborn

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

I may be in the minority but I think the new system for both halfbreeds and subraces is fine as is. I think there will be more to discuss if/when they start talking about race specific feats though.

The idea of a mix and match system is far more difficult to get right in terms of balance and I am ok with them not trying to do that. Like others said it is ripe for homebrew rules.

Mix and match is easy enough if you break features out between major and minor

Then you simply choose the major features of one parent and the minor features of the other

So long as the minor features are things more focused on the non combat pillars you shouldn't be able to pair a major feature with anything game break

[TyGuy]

If I were in charge of creating many hybrid options in the system I would build in more mechanics for such, instead of being so lazy and sterile.

I envision each race having its most archetypal and balanced for 1/2 contribution racial features highlighted for mixing designation. OR each race gets a little variant green text box with its racial features it provides to a mix. They may be nerfed versions of the parent features for balancing.

Further, extraplaner contributions should only be a 1/2 factor in such a system. E.g. to make a tiefling, one takes the 1/2 from the fiend lineage and adds it to the 1/2 contribution of the humanoid. Making elf, human, halfing, etc. tieflings more straight forward in their creation.

Edit: to clarify that last paragraph. I mean there is no full fiend or tiefling race option. There is only the fiendish incomplete features that get tacked onto the mixing half of a full race. And so on for celestial (aasimar), elemental (genasi), etc.

[Person_Man]

I've had this exact rule as a house rule for 20+ years through multiple editions. So I approve.

I also hate racial ability score bonuses (and racial ability score requirements in early editions). So if a player wants to be an Elf but wants a Str and not a Dex bonus, they can just say they had an Orc grandfather or whatever and the problem is solved.

[Psyren]

I've had this exact rule as a house rule for 20+ years through multiple editions. So I approve.

I also hate racial ability score bonuses (and racial ability score requirements in early editions). So if a player wants to be an Elf but wants a Str and not a Dex bonus, they can just say they had an Orc grandfather or whatever and the problem is solved.

This is an interesting point - for those who still find floating ASIs to be disagreeable, the new X-breed rules let you much more easily justify placing them wherever you want, and your ability to freely modify the cosmetic aspects of your creation let you put the parentage as far back as you want.

[strangebloke]

Inherently, breaking up traits into lego bricks that can be reassigned is just unworkable from a balance perspective.

If you have X races, but can pair half of any race with half of any other race, then the racial options are X^2. So for context there's currently something like 40 races in DND if I recall correctly (I know I'm off by a few here but whatever) and if ODD ends up with 40 races, then that would mean there'd be 1600 potential combos.

Now to some extent you're like "dang! So many options!" But in reality its real bad if you don't want to play a half breed, because almost ALL the options are halfbreeds, and by extension all the good options are going to be halfbreeds. The only way you are rewarded for playing a straight single-race elf in such an edition is if BOTH elf traits are so ludicrously OP that they make all half-elves look bad.

Stellaris is a 4x game that tried to implement this kind of automatic half-breeding. The number of races that end up in the game crashed it super quickly if this perk was ever taken. People REALLY underestimate how much bloat is created by implementing X^2 options like this.

so lego brick races are a BAD idea.

ODD already splits up a lot of things that used to be racial traits into background and race, so its pretty easy to make a half-dwarf / half-elf. Just pick whichever one has traits you like more, then pick a background suited to the other one better. You'll end up with a pretty stout elf or a pretty woodsy dwarf, and it balances out.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

.
Stellaris is a 4x game that tried to implement this kind of automatic half-breeding. The number of races that end up in the game crashed it super quickly if this perk was ever taken. People REALLY underestimate how much bloat is created by implementing X^2 options like this.


Okay what if instead we just took the most common pairings and gave them their stats, that way people could play mechanically unique half races with bloating the system

[Sception]

Like many of us, I'm currently reading the latest UU, and it came to my attention the way haldbreeds are being treated featurewise:



Personally, Im not loving that if you play a (for instance) half elf you're essentially a skinned human (or elf). The alternative I think would work best is that you get to chose ONE feature from EACH of your parents - for instance, a human/elf hybrid could choose Versatile from the human side and Elven Lineage from the elf side. Of course everyone would get the strongest one from each, but it'll be counterbalanced by just having two of them.

What do you think?

I disagree. racial features, even in this playtest pdf, are not all created equal. some are ribbons. Some are big mechanical deals. Some scale with level and some don't. Some races have many features and some only a couple. Letting players just 'pick two' is going to be prone to all sorts of jankery. mix two races with singular big powerful features for double the power! Never ever mix two races who have a lot of little features, even if doing so fits your character concept, because you'd just be nerfing yourself! As the game expands with new content progressively more jankery would be added in. you could even have specific combinations of two features never meant to be combined on the same character that synergize in game breaking ways. This mechanic would take all the design challenges of multiclassing and apply them to races as well, no new book could ever risk introducing a new player race without first having to go one by one through every single one of that race's features to ask whether it becomes broken when taken out of the intended context and combined with any any feature from each and every other race already in the game.

It could work as homebrew with judicious DM oversight, but it would never work as an actual printed mechanic.

I personally like the system in the pdf as it is, where mixed characters are mechanically one or the other and the mixed ancestry is reflected via aesthetics and narrative alone. This is, in my opinion, the most balanced and sensible way to do it, the one that allows the most freedom without and under this system players will only play mixed race characters if that's how they envision their character and their story - ie, the reasons we want people to have when they pick their character's race generally. This system specifically allows any sort of mix that a player might want and a DM might allow without breaking anything in the game - at least not anything that isn't already broken.

Furthermore, the system as it is in the PDF doesn't preclude the possibility of bespoke rules for particular combinations in the future. Later books could easily add more specific rules for half elves or half orcs or half dwarves or whatever, as an optional alternative to the default rules where you just pick one parent for mechanics.

Such bespoke rules would be a lot easier to add in the pdf system than in the proposed system in this thread, in that they'd be compatible with the default pdf system without breaking anything. If 1/2 elf ever gets bespoke rules of its own (which wouldn't at all surprise me), then you could have half 1/2 elf, half elf characters using the pdf system without any trouble. But if you used the proposed 'pick one trait from each parent' system, then such a character would very easily turn into some sort of 'double elf' stacking multiple features that were meant to separately represent similar concepts, making a 3/4 elf more of an elf than an elf is at whatever hypothetical feature is getting stacked.

Which I guess is just a hypothetical example of how the pdf system, while mechanically uninteresting, is future proofed for compatibility with future races generally, where the proposed system in the thread very much isn't.

[TyGuy]

I thought it went without saying that a hypothetical pairing system would be optional and encouraged to be curated. Perhaps even have one or two examples of a tighter and looser pairings table for the lazy and time starved DMs.
Something for the tables that want to cross plasmoids with aaracokra and something for the tables that want to keep it down to the classic race combos.

[Segev]

Eh, I think having one clear space that says "this is where you look to see the only differences between Rock and Forest Gnomes side by side" is a good thing. Sure the table looks ugly in the UA, but I'm confident it will look cleaner in the final book. (Shifter and Eladrin lineages have a lot of text too, but MPMM managed that okay.)Which, again, is no different from having the subraces. It's literally just calling it something different. If they weren't making a big deal out of how they got rid of subraces, I wouldn't even care about the name change, but the way they're making a big deal out of it and then ... still having them ... makes me question what their actual thought process and purpose is. Given other things they've done for reasons I have found problematic, it bodes ill, even though from a mechanics side, I have no problem with "lineages" instead of (i.e. as) "subraces." I just worry because I don't trust it'll actually survive in its current form due to it not jiving with what they ostensibly have set as a goal.


This is an interesting point - for those who still find floating ASIs to be disagreeable, the new X-breed rules let you much more easily justify placing them wherever you want, and your ability to freely modify the cosmetic aspects of your creation let you put the parentage as far back as you want.

THe trouble iwth the existing UA half-breed rules is that you're not playing a half-breed. You're playing a full-blood wearing a cosplay outfit.

[Psyren]

Inherently, breaking up traits into lego bricks that can be reassigned is just unworkable from a balance perspective.

If you have X races, but can pair half of any race with half of any other race, then the racial options are X^2. So for context there's currently something like 40 races in DND if I recall correctly (I know I'm off by a few here but whatever) and if ODD ends up with 40 races, then that would mean there'd be 1600 potential combos.

Now to some extent you're like "dang! So many options!" But in reality its real bad if you don't want to play a half breed, because almost ALL the options are halfbreeds, and by extension all the good options are going to be halfbreeds. The only way you are rewarded for playing a straight single-race elf in such an edition is if BOTH elf traits are so ludicrously OP that they make all half-elves look bad.

Stellaris is a 4x game that tried to implement this kind of automatic half-breeding. The number of races that end up in the game crashed it super quickly if this perk was ever taken. People REALLY underestimate how much bloat is created by implementing X^2 options like this.

so lego brick races are a BAD idea.

ODD already splits up a lot of things that used to be racial traits into background and race, so its pretty easy to make a half-dwarf / half-elf. Just pick whichever one has traits you like more, then pick a background suited to the other one better. You'll end up with a pretty stout elf or a pretty woodsy dwarf, and it balances out.

Very well put.


Which, again, is no different from having the subraces. It's literally just calling it something different.

Subraces were presented differently though. They weren't tabular for instance, and the differences between them weren't tied to one single feature.

Again, I'll reserve judgement until I see the book presentation, but my hunch is that this will make "All elves are the same mechanically except for these Lineage options" clearer for new players.


The trouble iwth the existing UA half-breed rules is that you're not playing a half-breed. You're playing a full-blood wearing a cosplay outfit.

That is the only possible way to balance this (at least, without involving another lever like a feat) without creating a metric ton of extra work as strangebloke so aptly pointed out.

[Segev]

Subraces were presented differently though. They weren't tabular for instance, and the differences between them weren't tied to one single feature.

Again, I'll reserve judgement until I see the book presentation, but my hunch is that this will make "All elves are the same mechanically except for these Lineage options" clearer for new players.I fail to see how the subraces were unclear about that previously. I think this is exactly the same, regardless of whether they label the one feature to which it's tied "subrace" or "lineage."

It's not a problem as a mechanic. It's just a bad sign for the integrity of the designers that they're pretending it's more than a name change. Most charitably, they might be very full of themselves thinking they've made a positive difference by discarding something then reinventing it without realizing they've reinvented it. That bodes poorly for their ability to improve on something they demonstrably don't understand. The alternatives are less charitable, but I am not sure what they portend, other than giving me a bleak premonition about the continued downward spiral of this edition with this crew running it.


That is the only possible way to balance this (at least, without involving another lever like a feat) without creating a metric ton of extra work as strangebloke so aptly pointed out.Half-elves and half-orcs weren't balanced before?

Or do you mean the "any half-breed combo you want" thing? I agree, this is the easiest way to balance it. The trouble is that the method for balancing it is essentially saying, "There are no half-breeds, but you can pretend by cosplaying."

Honestly, you could do that before. Heck, why not play a full-blooded elf using orc racial rules? No need to be a half-elf/half-orc.

[t209]

Are dragonborn egg layers? Can I hatch dwarves?
Well, that also go into player taste.
Elves are okay but Dragonborn aren’t, at least for most of the players.
Same with dwarves, Halfling, and gnomes. And Muls don’t count.
(I mean even if older Elf art tend to look like alien, they can look attractive.
Orcs work because of Warcraft, otherwise porcine look is usually the old default.)

[strangebloke]

Okay what if instead we just took the most common pairings and gave them their stats, that way people could play mechanically unique half races with bloating the system
Half Orcs are only a traditional DND race because people wanted to play as orcs, but fixed alignment for orcs wouldn't let them do that. With this no longer being a thing in standard DND (and not having been a thing in many settings for years now - see eberron) the purpose of the half-orc is really unclear. It's just big strong warrior muscle guy and bigger stronger warrior muscle guy. They're redundant. Same goes for half-elves to an extent. Basically just a human/elf who was a bit of an outsider growing up. That's much more a background than a race.

I thought it went without saying that a hypothetical pairing system would be optional and encouraged to be curated. Perhaps even have one or two examples of a tighter and looser pairings table for the lazy and time starved DMs.
Something for the tables that want to cross plasmoids with aaracokra and something for the tables that want to keep it down to the classic race combos.
Personally I have zero interest in having half-orcs and orcs be delineated. Its classic in the sense that its been an option for a few editions but in terms of flavor the differences are cultural at most.

I'd be way more interested in non-classic pairings like elf/dwarf, or elf/orc.

THe trouble iwth the existing UA half-breed rules is that you're not playing a half-breed. You're playing a full-blood wearing a cosplay outfit.
Right and that's so different from 5e where the differences between a variant half-elf and an elf were, uh.... basically non-existent.

And yeah you could go the other way and have VGTM orcs and half-orcs, where one is RADICALLY different from the other for no reason, but. Lol.

[t209]

So I think I found the inspiration behind this features.
https://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/321845
https://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/384119

[TyGuy]

THe trouble iwth the existing UA half-breed rules is that you're not playing a half-breed. You're playing a full-blood wearing a cosplay outfit.

And worse yet, it's not actually adding anything to the game. We already could do this method. Many of us have been without WotC's permission for years. Just like floating ASI.

Call me crazy, but if I'm going to fork over 30-50 dollars, I want more time saving and inspiring content than things I already whipped up in 15 minutes during my shower.

[Luccan]

Half Orcs are only a traditional DND race because people wanted to play as orcs, but fixed alignment for orcs wouldn't let them do that. With this no longer being a thing in standard DND (and not having been a thing in many settings for years now - see eberron) the purpose of the half-orc is really unclear. It's just big strong warrior muscle guy and bigger stronger warrior muscle guy. They're redundant. Same goes for half-elves to an extent. Basically just a human/elf who was a bit of an outsider growing up. That's much more a background than a race.

Personally I have zero interest in having half-orcs and orcs be delineated. Its classic in the sense that its been an option for a few editions but in terms of flavor the differences are cultural at most.

I'd be way more interested in non-classic pairings like elf/dwarf, or elf/orc.

Right and that's so different from 5e where the differences between a variant half-elf and an elf were, uh.... basically non-existent.

And yeah you could go the other way and have VGTM orcs and half-orcs, where one is RADICALLY different from the other for no reason, but. Lol.

Playable orcs have been a thing in every edition of D&D and for at least the last 3 editions fixed alignments for humanoids have been openly acknowledged as not being a thing. Half-Orcs are a legacy choice and yes that makes them a "sacred cow". The thing about sacred cows is that if you slaughter them all you aren't a cow herd anymore you're a butcher. Two fundamentally different things.

Baseline Half-Elves were a mixture of human and elf traits so the existence of the variant rules making them more elf-like (but notably still not the same thing) isn't really relevant to the fact that Half-Elves are, in this playtest material, mechanically identical to one of their parents

[strangebloke]

Playable orcs have been a thing in every edition of D&D and for at least the last 3 editions fixed alignments for humanoids have been openly acknowledged as not being a thing. Half-Orcs are a legacy choice and yes that makes them a "sacred cow". The thing about sacred cows is that if you slaughter them all you aren't a cow herd anymore you're a butcher. Two fundamentally different things.
Half-Orcs don't reflect anything unique that non-evil orcs do and subjectively of the 100 characters I've see at my table over multiple editions I think two have been half orcs.

It's a sacred cow, but its not that sacred. Most of the implications of being a half-orc are covered by background and stat allotment.


Baseline Half-Elves were a mixture of human and elf traits so the existence of the variant rules making them more elf-like (but notably still not the same thing) isn't really relevant to the fact that Half-Elves are, in this playtest material, mechanically identical to one of their parents
I would seriously doubt that between race, background, ability score selection, and class they're identical to either parent. Race is just one part of the sauce.

[False God]

I'll say two things:

I've run "under the hood" games, where you pick the race you want to play visually and then pick the stat block you want to use mechanically and it works fine. Everyone is unique and gets to play, within a reasonable margin of error that the stat blocks are limited to, exactly what they want, with the stats they want. It's a totally fine approach for a game or DM that doesn't care much about every race having common identifying mechanical elements.

However, I think D&D is missing the simplicity they keep claiming they want to create. It shouldn't be "Pick your stats, then pick your visuals." that's not creating hybrids. It should be "mix and match". But that would require every race to get an equitable amount and quality of features and abilities, which they are clearly not interested in doing.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

So I think I found the inspiration behind this features.
https://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/321845
https://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/384119

From what I understand about those books is that they are a modular race creation system that uses a point buy system which can basically make anything you want? (I watched one YouTube video) If the race system was half as fleshed out as the books, I wouldn't be complaining


Half Orcs are only a traditional DND race because people wanted to play as orcs, but fixed alignment for orcs wouldn't let them do that. With this no longer being a thing in standard DND (and not having been a thing in many settings for years now - see eberron) the purpose of the half-orc is really unclear. It's just big strong warrior muscle guy and bigger stronger warrior muscle guy. They're redundant. Same goes for half-elves to an extent. Basically just a human/elf who was a bit of an outsider growing up. That's much more a background than a race.



Aren't most races redundant anyway? Like there are tons of races that meet the basics description of Big Stong Muscle warriors guy
(Minotaur, Dragonborn, Bugbear, Dwarf to some extent)

Half Orcs unfortunately are my favorite race, so I will be biased against anything that slights them

[Psyren]

Half Orcs unfortunately are my favorite race, so I will be biased against anything that slights them

Good news, they will still exist in core.



Half-elves and half-orcs weren't balanced before?

Or do you mean the "any half-breed combo you want" thing? I agree, this is the easiest way to balance it.

The latter.


The trouble is that the method for balancing it is essentially saying, "There are no half-breeds, but you can pretend by cosplaying."

Honestly, you could do that before. Heck, why not play a full-blooded elf using orc racial rules? No need to be a half-elf/half-orc.

By putting an official label on it, they create the design space to make other stuff that cares if you're a half-breed later.

(My personal preference, again, would be to make a 1st-level feat with "Prerequisite: Half-Breed" that lets you grab one trait from your other parent.)

[Stangler]

Mix and match is easy enough if you break features out between major and minor

Then you simply choose the major features of one parent and the minor features of the other

So long as the minor features are things more focused on the non combat pillars you shouldn't be able to pair a major feature with anything game break

That is just another thing that needs balancing and acts as a limitation to how races are designed.

[Wasp]

Maybe I am conditioned by Eberron, but I really like Half-Elves as a "real" race where your parents are also Half-Elves so I feel this solution in ODD is sooo disappointing...

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

Good news, they will still exist in core.

(My personal preference, again, would be to make a 1st-level feat with "Prerequisite: Half-Breed" that lets you grab one trait from your other parent.)

I suppose the worse case is just playing the Phb Half-Orcs ported forward to odd edition

I'm also open to a feat based solution

[pwykersotz]

From a game design standpoint, I like it. You aren't going to break anything with these rules, and it's easy to mass-implement. From a flavor standpoint, it's a bit meh. Not inspiring, as some have said, but it also doesn't upset me.
Design: 10/10
Flavor: 5/10

[togapika]

But if there are no half-breed stats, however will I stat up my half halfling (hobbit), half goblin?

[t209]

From what I understand about those books is that they are a modular race creation system that uses a point buy system which can basically make anything you want? (I watched one YouTube video) If the race system was half as fleshed out as the books, I wouldn't be complaining



Aren't most races redundant anyway? Like there are tons of races that meet the basics description of Big Stong Muscle warriors guy
(Minotaur, Dragonborn, Bugbear, Dwarf to some extent)

Half Orcs unfortunately are my favorite race, so I will be biased against anything that slights them
Still I swear that seems that humanity tends to "get around", even fire and air for genasi for deities' sake.
Also Part of me wonder why they just didn't do Half Orc with +2 Strength and +1 any ability like Half Elf, even back in previous editions (3E at least).
That way it gets more versatality (sure it will be muscle, but can be smart muscle than muscle muscle).

[Psyren]

But if there are no half-breed stats, however will I stat up my half halfling (hobbit), half goblin?

As written: you pick whether you want the crunch from halfling or goblin and then do your cosmetics as whatever mix you want.
Ask your DM: they may let you mix and match traits from the parents.

[GenericFighter]

I think this is a great way to do it. I'm pretty tired of all the weirdos that want to strain their character through some half-baked eugenics system for an extra two percent damage or whatever.

The one thing I'm ambivalent about is the inevitable loss of mongrelmen. Always had a soft spot for those guys.

[t209]

I think this is a great way to do it. I'm pretty tired of all the weirdos that want to strain their character through some half-baked eugenics system for an extra two percent damage or whatever.

The one thing I'm ambivalent about is the inevitable loss of mongrelmen. Always had a soft spot for those guys.

In honesty, Mongrelmen are too obscure (because very few module had them and their appearance was very sparse)...except for their appearance in YAFGC and Legal Kimchi's rant about them (maybe YAFGC sharing his same opinion as him on their portrayal as scavenging savage and intellectually deficient resulting from their mixed lineages...so the comic had them as decent folks who is friendly to anyone and started out as peacemaker before persecution).

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

I think this is a great way to do it. I'm pretty tired of all the weirdos that want to strain their character through some half-baked eugenics system for an extra two percent damage or whatever.

The one thing I'm ambivalent about is the inevitable loss of mongrelmen. Always had a soft spot for those guys.

I mean you can make your character live longer by being at least half elf, it's still a source of optimization, all be it small

[KorvinStarmast]

You'd like 2e Tieflings! Only if they get rid of the {censored} horns and tail nonsense.

But no, they're barely still allowing randomness for your stats and hp anymore. Which is dumb; there is no harm in using that for people who like it. Maybe putting a challenge to role play a character in a role playing game ought to be understood as a virtue, not a vice. We all cut our teeth on that and it worked well enough to create a new hobby. :smalltongue:

[JadedDM]

The one thing I'm ambivalent about is the inevitable loss of mongrelmen. Always had a soft spot for those guys.

To be fair, Mongrelmen were never coming back anyway. Way too problematic. Their entire premise was they were a cautionary tale against race-mixing.

[t209]

To be fair, Mongrelmen were never coming back anyway. Way too problematic. Their entire premise was they were a cautionary tale against race-mixing.
Or whoever in charge of TSR was furious with “my character is half everything so I can best without effects”. I mean the only reasons they had Half Orc was because someone wanted Orc yet feel that evil/monster race joining the lawful party ignoring mercenaries.
Assuming if they were that petty on playtests and private seission.

[Kane0]

Some ideas:

You can substitute any one feature of your choice from one parent race for one of the other.

Normal races get three features, halfbreeds get one feature of their choice from each parent race

You can give up one +2 or +1 to an ability score that you would get from background to instead get one feature from your other parent race

You can give up the feat you would get from background to instead get one or two features from your other parent race

Distinguish racial features as lesser (equating to +1 ability score) and major (equating to +2 ability score). Halfbreeds get a balanced number of features from pool of both parent races. Make sure to account for the fact that cherrypicking what features you want itself counts towards that balance

[Psyren]

Normal races get three features, halfbreeds get one feature of their choice from each parent race


I like this one the most. You're essentially trading 2 features from one parent for one from the other. There's still a lot of min-maxing potential in that that would need to be worked through, but it's closer to being balanced without a lot of extra work. Players are naturally going to gravitate towards swapping out weak features for strong ones, but dropping multiple weak features are more likely to make that a true tradeoff.