Is a 2 level Moon Druid dip weak for a tier 2 Barbarian?

[CTurbo]

On my Barbarian, I'm considering on taking 2 levels of Druid(Moon) starting at character level 8 strictly for flavor to wildshape only into felines mainly a Tiger. The problem I'm seeing is that a Tiger or Lion looks pretty weak at those levels.

By level 9, my Barb will have well over 80 HP and 20 Str, 14 Dex, 18 Con. The PHB Tiger has 37 HP, 17 Str, 15 Dex, 14 Con.

That's a pretty big step down. I'm all for sacrificing a little power in favor of flavor, and I'm certainly not looking for a power boost, but I don't want to be nearly useless either.


Would it be reasonable to either keep the physical stats while wildshaped or maybe add a few HD to the Tiger stat block?

[icedraikon]

Don't forget that while Tiger may have 37hp, if you Rage -> Wildshape, then it has an EHP of 74 which is not bad at all. Even without raging, you're getting 37*2=74 extra hp per short rest with wildshape

Additionally, this

You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense.
So Unarmored Defense stays, netting you a +2 AC bonus over the Tiger's statblock and you keep Extra Attack, so doubling the Tiger output.

Plus Barbarian doesn't really get much (imo) past level

Plus, with a 10ft higher base speed, you'd be at 50 feet which isn't bad at all.

That's not even touching on the out of combat utility that comes with wildshapes and a few levels of druid

However, with wildshape your attacks will be nonmagical unless you want to take 6 levels in Moon Druid, so if that is an issue try to get your hands on an Insignia of Claws which would give you +1 attack +1 damage in wildshape as well as bypassing nonmagical resistance/immunity.


tl;dr: Moon Druid is a fantastic dip for you imo

[Eldariel]

Yeah, it's not impressive. Mostly you'll be lacking in terms of hit bonus and HP. But it's still a ton of disposable HP at least. And some spells you get like at least Longstrider do add on top of it all. Offensively it hasn't been impressive for a while though.

[Damon_Tor]

You can JUST use the wildshape as an extra pool of HP if you want, and it's still probably worth it a lot of the time. You're in your turn, already raging, and you've got a bonus action. You run in, do your stupid strong barbarian attacks with reckless attack, then use that bonus action to turn into a tiger. Think of it like 37 temporary hitpoints. The next round, the enemies will be hitting the tiger, not you. Then on your turn you charge in again (using the tiger's 40 foot speed), bonus action to turn BACK into your barbarian form (assuming the enemy hasn't chewed through the tiger HP already), and attack normally again. It's just a ton of free hitpoints on that turn you need it most on.

For this particular tactic the giant hyena is the superior shape, but the difference is probably negligible. (Hyenas are felids, if that makes you feel better though).

[Pixel_Kitsune]

I would also point out, you want Big Cat and Tiger Flavor.

Check with your DM but 5e encourages just re-skinning things.

You worry the Tiger is too weak? Mechanics wise use the Dire Wolf. You lose Pounce, but you get Pack Tactics letting you work with your party and gain Advantage without having to go Reckless.

Edit to Correct my Error on the AC.

[Sherlockpwns]

It would be hard to argue that it’s a power game choice; but I will point out that both feline options have keen senses; which could also open up some skill based RP. Something to think about beyond combat.

Otherwise yeah it’s basically just a bunch of temp hp and 3 handy spell casts when not raging.

[Damon_Tor]

I would also point out, you want Big Cat and Tiger Flavor.

Check with your DM but 5e encourages just re-skinning things.

You worry the Tiger is too weak? Mechanics wise use the Dire Wolf. You lose Pounce, but your AC is 16 instead of 14, instead of pounce you get Pack Tactics letting you work with your party and gain Advantage without having to go Reckless.

Hold up, how are you getting 16 AC for the direwolf? Unarmored Defense is not "add your constitution to your AC when you aren't wearing any armor" it's an alternate way to determine AC. As far as I can tell there's no reason to think you would be able to add a dire wolfs natural armor on top of the Unarmored Defense.

[Mastikator]

Compared to for example fighter, yeah it's not great in combat.

However you get a lot of horizontal power from just 2 levels if you take utility spells, and wildshaping for espionage reasons is still legit. It's not going to help you much in combat save for a small amount of extra HP but outside of combat it could do quite a lot.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Hold up, how are you getting 16 AC for the direwolf? Unarmored Defense is not "add your constitution to your AC when you aren't wearing any armor" it's an alternate way to determine AC. As far as I can tell there's no reason to think you would be able to add a dire wolfs natural armor on top of the Unarmored Defense.

You are correct, I misread that. Thank you. :)

[RazorChain]

don't forget the utility of your shapes as well. Turning into a squirell or a rat to scout ahead is pretty good as well.

But if you want to get the most use out of barbearian then you kinda have to plan for it. I have a Kalashtar Bear totem barb 5 and Moon Druid 8. His physical stats don't count for much because he's mostly in beast form. But he has resistance to everything while raging and then he has the tough feat as well. So basically a huge bag of hit points.

[strangebloke]

Moon druid is a much better class than barbarian. Specifically Moon Druid 1 and Moon Druid 2 are much better than Barbarian 7-9. You get guidance, spell slots (longstrider! goodberry!) and combat wildshape. All of these things add mountains of utility to your kit and allow you to contribute in situations you'd otherwise be worthless in. Out of rage? Turn into a beast for extra hp. Out of range? Turn into something with better movement speed or cast longstrider or use an offensive cantrip. Out of Combat? You now have guidance as well as a good scouting tool in wildshape.

What wildshape does not do for you, is optimize your DPR under ideal conditions. GWM/PAM is better if you're using reckless. It just is. But there are a lot of times where I'd argue you shouldn't be using reckless and a lot of times where you won't have rage or the ability to get into melee.

Tiger specifically is not good. I would recommend refluffing to a Deinonychus or Dire Wolf or similar.

[Chaos Jackal]

It's not great offensively. But it's decent defensively and a major leap in utility, in and out of combat. You get a ton of additional HP, a number of useful spells and Wild Shape has a lot more applications than just combat.

Meanwhile, barbarian 8 and 9 give you an ASI (good but with the stats you have you're not in urgent need of it) and Brutal Critical, which is practically a ribbon.

So, weak? Nah. Barbarian's horrid scaling makes most multiclassing at least a bit worth it and this is far from the worst you could do. It's not gonna be mind-blowing or anything, but you can get decent mileage out of these two druid levels.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Moon druid is a much better class than barbarian. Specifically Moon Druid 1 and Moon Druid 2 are much better than Barbarian 7-9. You get guidance, spell slots (longstrider! goodberry!) and combat wildshape. All of these things add mountains of utility to your kit and allow you to contribute in situations you'd otherwise be worthless in. Out of rage? Turn into a beast for extra hp. Out of range? Turn into something with better movement speed or cast longstrider or use an offensive cantrip. Out of Combat? You now have guidance as well as a good scouting tool in wildshape.

What wildshape does not do for you, is optimize your DPR under ideal conditions. GWM/PAM is better if you're using reckless. It just is. But there are a lot of times where I'd argue you shouldn't be using reckless and a lot of times where you won't have rage or the ability to get into melee.

Tiger specifically is not good. I would recommend refluffing to a Deinonychus or Dire Wolf or similar.

I think this is bang on. I was looking at a build like this recently and the one thing that became clear is that it's not easy to hit anything while wildshaped despite the advantage, and as you level and monsters get better ACs it gets tougher. The post that mentioned attacking in human form then BA wildshape to absorb damage (or vice versa) was a good way to mitigate this issue.

[strangebloke]

I think this is bang on. I was looking at a build like this recently and the one thing that became clear is that it's not easy to hit anything while wildshaped despite the advantage, and as you level and monsters get better ACs it gets tougher. The post that mentioned attacking in human form then BA wildshape to absorb damage (or vice versa) was a good way to mitigate this issue.

yeah so a lot of the discussion of barbarian comes back to how often you expect to be using Reckless attack. I've seen opinions ranging from

all the time. They can't get advantage against you if they're dead
when you're raging, the BSP resistance offsets the enemy damage spike and the advantage is worth more when you have higher damage.
its risky but situationally very useful against high AC opponents or if the enemy would already have advantage / or be able to hit you trivially.

all of these heuristics could be valid or invalid depending on campaign conditions. Generally I'd argue that the math skews heavily against Reckless as you level. Rage's damage mitigation gets worse (lots of new monsters deal pure fire/cold/psychic damage) and enemy AC doesn't keep up with attack bonuses but that's wholly contingent on the populations of enemies you're facing.

But the real takeaway here is, if you think you aren't using reckless all the time, GWM gets worse and wildshape gets better. It gives you more instances where you can safely reckless attack and you're missing out on less GWM damage.

The real way to make a moon druid build pay dividends is to get items like the belt of storm giant's strength or an amulet of health

[CTurbo]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I bit more info on this character. His Wis score is 14 so with 2 Druid levels, he'd know 4 spells. I know for sure that Beast Bond, Animal Friendship, and Speak With Animals would be 3 of those. Not overly concerned with the spell list right now though.

This barb wears no armor, typically fights bare handed(Tavern Brawler), and loves to grapple.

The Tiger has half the hot points and a -2 AC over the unarmored Barb, but damage would be at least similar if not better than punching things. I do intend on grabbing the Unarmed Fighting style at some point.

I'm more worried about the lower AC and HP.

I'm all for re-skinning the Tiger if that doesn't break anything or just simply letting it have as many hit dice as the character which would be 9.

[Person_Man]

Barbarian is generally considered pretty weak at mid-high levels, particularly when compared to full spell casters. You could just ask the DM for an alternate class feature to gain Wildshape from a DM approved list (maybe at half effectiveness compared to a Druid or something), by using one use of a Rage.

[Eldariel]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I bit more info on this character. His Wis score is 14 so with 2 Druid levels, he'd know 4 spells. I know for sure that Beast Bond, Animal Friendship, and Speak With Animals would be 3 of those. Not overly concerned with the spell list right now though.

This barb wears no armor, typically fights bare handed(Tavern Brawler), and loves to grapple.

The Tiger has half the hot points and a -2 AC over the unarmored Barb, but damage would be at least similar if not better than punching things. I do intend on grabbing the Unarmed Fighting style at some point.

I'm more worried about the lower AC and HP.

I'm all for re-skinning the Tiger if that doesn't break anything or just simply letting it have as many hit dice as the character which would be 9.

Remember, you can Wildshape for free twice per short rest. If you get knocked out of Cat, just Cat again. So in reality, you've got 74 wildshape HP which are supplemental to your mainform HP. That almost doubles your effective HP and lets you recover up to 74 HP on a short rest, which is decidedly not bad. In that sense, I wouldn't worry about the relatively low AC and HP: it's all bonus on top of your normal HP and it's a very significant amount.

Also, it might be worth it to go Druid 3 for utility spells: Pass without Trace is very Barbarian, very Feline, and an incredible ability 1-20.

[strangebloke]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I bit more info on this character. His Wis score is 14 so with 2 Druid levels, he'd know 4 spells. I know for sure that Beast Bond, Animal Friendship, and Speak With Animals would be 3 of those. Not overly concerned with the spell list right now though.

This barb wears no armor, typically fights bare handed(Tavern Brawler), and loves to grapple.

The Tiger has half the hot points and a -2 AC over the unarmored Barb, but damage would be at least similar if not better than punching things. I do intend on grabbing the Unarmed Fighting style at some point.

I'm more worried about the lower AC and HP.

I'm all for re-skinning the Tiger if that doesn't break anything or just simply letting it have as many hit dice as the character which would be 9.

yeah what eldariel said. The wildshape is actively difficult to get full value out of, since it lasts so long and you get two per short rest. Normally you can just shift back as soon as you 'go down.' So your barbarian has 85 HP or so, with wildshapes that increases to 150 or so. Low AC is a burden but if you were reckless anyway its not that big a deal. (you can also knock people down with pounce, which means you may not have to always be reckless.)

You can make it a lot tougher with something like a barrier tattoo, or amulet of health, or even inspiring leader. The dire wolf which was already mentioned is pretty comparable but doesn't need to use reckless as often. Giant Hyena has rampage and even more HP.

Basically don't treat your Tiger form as a "super mode." Treat it as an expendable summon.