Leadership - How do you run it at your table?

[KoDT69]

So I get the power boost of the 2 level lower cohort makes Leadership pretty busted, but how often does it really come up? I guess I'm just looking to see how you all run it. Here are some questions about your tables (not RAW):

1. Do you let the followers other than the cohort gain experience?
2. What classes do you give them?
3. What do your players actually use them for if at all?

I very much dislike the idea that as your Leadership score goes up you attract new higher level followers and none gain experience. It makes more narrative sense that you'd gain the loyalty of a select few then as they do their own stuff to further your ideals they gain in power which increases the influence pulling in the newer lower level dudes to join up. Also, why not reward them if a few join you on a mission and can contribute?
I keep them all but the cohort to the actual NPC classes, level 1 followers are just Commoners. 2 and higher can be Experts and Warriors. Normally I'll have 1 or 2 of the highest level followers be Adepts.
Another thing is that Leadership is not a feat at my table. I use the guidelines but the players have to do stuff to earn followers, so you could get a max number free with good roleplay, or just not even think about it and maybe still encounter a few NPCs that are willing to help anyway. Whatever makes sense to the story.

[Rleonardh]

Followers don't level at all
If cohort I usually make the player use there own gold to outfit them if I run a game where that feat is allowed.

Usually I will just give them that feat once certain level if it makes sense.
Say the party takes over a ruined castle and starts to rebuild it, I will give the leader of that group the feat.

Followers would be like the township
Cohort would be like a person in charge when party goes off.
Usually a cleric I give them but can be a fighter or ranger.

If it's say a crime syndicate than do rogues of course.

Renown barbarian, gets a tribe

Wizard makes a school

Cleric builds a temple

Just ways I do it to make it mean more to the players.

Also say a player is at level 8 and tired of the character, give him the feat or even just roleplay there new character into the game and join the group as the old one retire or killed.

[pabelfly]

I don't. Most I've compromised is saying someone can have an animal follower as a druid does if they want the feat. I don't want to be holding up game time and combat by adjudicating how a horde of NPCs work and fight and giving less time to people with just one character.

[Crake]

So I get the power boost of the 2 level lower cohort makes Leadership pretty busted, but how often does it really come up? I guess I'm just looking to see how you all run it. Here are some questions about your tables (not RAW):

1. Do you let the followers other than the cohort gain experience?
2. What classes do you give them?
3. What do your players actually use them for if at all?

I very much dislike the idea that as your Leadership score goes up you attract new higher level followers and none gain experience. It makes more narrative sense that you'd gain the loyalty of a select few then as they do their own stuff to further your ideals they gain in power which increases the influence pulling in the newer lower level dudes to join up. Also, why not reward them if a few join you on a mission and can contribute?
I keep them all but the cohort to the actual NPC classes, level 1 followers are just Commoners. 2 and higher can be Experts and Warriors. Normally I'll have 1 or 2 of the highest level followers be Adepts.
Another thing is that Leadership is not a feat at my table. I use the guidelines but the players have to do stuff to earn followers, so you could get a max number free with good roleplay, or just not even think about it and maybe still encounter a few NPCs that are willing to help anyway. Whatever makes sense to the story.

1) As already mentioned, followers don't gain xp. That being said however, you as the DM are well within your right to level them up and attract the newer followers from the bottom, rather than from the top, that makes plenty of sense. When it's mentioned that followers don't gain xp, that's in the context of "they don't detract xp from the party, nor do the provide significant enough of a contribution to the party to warrant gaining xp of their own". That doesn't mean that they can't gain xp and level up AT ALL, only from time spent with the party where they are significantly overshadowed by true adventurers.

2) Follower levels are limited to warrior, commoner and expert, so most will probably be commoners, with a smattering of warriors and experts depending on the players' reputation. Cohorts usually exist in game before leadership is taken, and is usually taken by a player to form a stronger bond specifically with that character, as well as allow the party to not have to worry about xp penalties from that NPC travelling with the party (since a cohort doesn't take xp away from the group like a normal NPC adventurer would).

3) All sorts. Often it's just used as a way to attract a cohort, which as I mentioned previously, is usually an already established character, I don't allow leadership to attract some ephemeral, theoretical NPC of a specific build that the player wants. On the one occasion that the followers did actually come up, it was an E6 game where the player was leading a cult to their NPC love interest that happened to be a succubus. It was a survival horror game, and the other players had no idea the cult belonged to the player, so there was an amusing moment when the player was investigating the cult with his party, while questioning his own follower who, being a cultist of hedonism, was completely high off his rocket and confused as hell cause he was just thinking to himself "Yo... you're my leader man... why are you askin' all these questions?"

[Gnaeus]

How my groups tend to run it:

You make a minion. This minion tends to be extremely optimized, usually a primary caster. They make items for you and cast long duration buffs. I think this is broken, but generally take it if allowed, because it is equal to several crafting feats, which are themselves extremely powerful, + additional caster cheese. They discourage having a fighting minion, for combat time reasons, which I understand but do not agree with, as that is about the least op use.

How I prefer to run it:

Banned in abstract. Likely to be allowed in specific with reasons why it makes sense and/or won't overshadow other players. Preferred to be used for a reason needed for a build (I want to be a mounted fighter, so I need a flying mount) or RP (I am building an organization and I need it for interaction with the downtime rules). Followers generally don't have statblocks, but are loyal members of the organization.

[Quertus]

1. Do you let the followers other than the cohort gain experience?
2. What classes do you give them?
3. What do your players actually use them for if at all?

I very much dislike the idea that as your Leadership score goes up you attract new higher level followers and none gain experience. It makes more narrative sense that you'd gain the loyalty of a select few then as they do their own stuff to further your ideals they gain in power which increases the influence pulling in the newer lower level dudes to join up.

1) irrelevant. The table tells you how many of what level you can have. If you want to say that your “new” 2nd level guy is your old 1st level guy, but leveled up? That’s fine. So long as you abide by the numbers given in the table.

2) mu. The player gives them whatever classes they want. If they want me to do it, eh, I’ll base it on the area they’re recruiting from. However (citation needed), there are apparently rules for giving them PC class levels (but it costs, like, double levels or something?)? Honestly, iirc, “Expert” is the most common choice for “higher” (heh) level followers, because of #3.

3) usually, iirc, they’re used to run a ship, staff a base, or otherwise man such suboptimal uses of resources. And also to make knowledge checks. Thus the popularity of “Expert”.

All in all, I’d say about half the characters who took Leadership at my tables didn’t bother attracting followers. Some of that was based on the individual campaign particulars, some on the individual characters’ personalities, and some just because it seemingly wasn’t the important part of the feat for them.

[Crake]

However (citation needed), there are apparently rules for giving them PC class levels (but it costs, like, double levels or something?)? Honestly, iirc, “Expert” is the most common choice for “higher” (heh) level followers, because of #3.

It's an optional rule in the epic level handbook, normally all followers are commoners, experts, or warriors. According to the optional rules, adepts and aristocrats have a level adjustment of +2, and PC classes are +3, while any follower with levels in a prestige class are +5. Obviously, at +5, you can never get a follower with a prestige class pre-epic, but you could snag a couple of PC classed followers, or maybe even just a sprinkling of adepts.

[Elvensilver]

Well, at the only table I played where Leadership was allowed, the design of the followers was firmly in the GM's hands.

The character with Leadership was a cleric/paladin with the nobility domain (Pathfinder, but the feat is similar enough) and thus had a high leadership score. For one level, there were no followers, only the cohort (whom the GM designed and run). Then, as help for fighting against an evil cult, the cleric's church sent a ship full of fanatic crusaders for her to command.

These followers were too under the control of the GM, so the only thing the players knew was that they were low-level martials. Warriors, perhaps, but the GM hinted that some might be level one paladins, it would certainly fit the theme.

The cleric hasn't leveled since then, so I can't say whether some of the followers would level with her or there would be new influx of slightly stronger men and women of the church.

I would prefer the existing followers to level, as it is more logical (they are fighting an evil cult!), but in the end, it doesn't matter - it's not as if the cleric has any special relationship to any of the ≈50 crusaders, and the GM certainly didn't built them individually.

[Quertus]

It's an optional rule in the epic level handbook, normally all followers are commoners, experts, or warriors. According to the optional rules, adepts and aristocrats have a level adjustment of +2, and PC classes are +3, while any follower with levels in a prestige class are +5. Obviously, at +5, you can never get a follower with a prestige class pre-epic, but you could snag a couple of PC classed followers, or maybe even just a sprinkling of adepts.

Epic? Thanks! Nice memory. I never would have found it there.

Hmmm… with some negative-LA races, perhaps combined with curing lycanthropy cheese, it should be possible to snag a Prestige class pre-epic. I’m just not sure it’s worth it.

[Telonius]

It's very much a "handle with care" thing. I'd usually only allow it in specific instances: a very experienced player, in a campaign with very few players.

For the first half of that, you have to actually be able to manage two character sheets and not bog down the session. The rest of the table is not interested in you waffling through ten minutes of figuring out your actions. For the second half of that, yes, you can play with fewer than 4 PCs, but that throws a lot of assumptions off-kilter. And as DM, yeah, I can make some adjustments if the party doesn't have a dedicated magic user or tank or sneak or healer. But, Homer Lazy; sometimes it's easier just to give them a sidekick.

The Cohort is really the thing that's the biggest balance concern. The followers are mostly fluff.

For the Cohort, I work with the player to figure out the need it's filling. Ask the player what sort of character they want to attract. If there's a friendly NPC they've already met, that would fit the bill, that would be the preferred option. (They'd have a connection already and a reason to join the group). If not, if the player has any ideas, I'd check those out first. If they don't have any, or if it seems a little underpowered, I'd present a few ideas for a build, based on the story, the sorts of people who would join up with the PC, and other stuff like that. A Barbarian might get a Cleric of Kord if they need a healer; a Paladin might get a Cleric of their own religion. A Rogue might get a Beguiler, Sorcerer, or an Arcane Trickster if they need a mage. Or they might get somebody from their backstory (friend or relative from their hometown, that sort of thing).

[lylsyly]

At our table it's a hard ban with one exception. Every other time I DM I run a post-cataclysmic world in a level 3-12 campaign always set in a different area. After the PCs reach level 12 they are given Leadership for free. Their cohorts are going to be the leaders of a new community and their followers the led. We have one last session (or two if the gang is getting into it) where they choose an undeveloped area and flesh out the new community. They have fun with it and are helping me flesh out an entire world at the same time. ;-)

[Biggus]

I only allow Leadership in small parties (generally 1-2 PCs, possibly 3 at the most) as it allows them to fill in gaps in the party, such as not having any healing ability.

When I do use it, I use the ELH rules Crake mentioned for nonstandard classes.

[Jay R]

Followers should not ever follow the party; they will die to the first area effect attack. Their job is to run the PC's business, or fiefdom, or home, or maybe run errands.

A Cohort should stay with the party, but should usually not be quite as bold as the PCs.

I'm new to running 3.5e, so my specific answers are still hypothetical.

1. Do you let the followers other than the cohort gain experience?
It doesn't really matter, but I assume the first followers will always be the highest level followers, and new ones will be 1st level.

2. What classes do you give them?
Doesn't matter very much, since they aren't on the adventure (see area effects, above). The PC can always find warriors, commoners, or experts. Rogues or Fighters are fairly easy to get. If you want casters, it's going to take awhile, and you'll need to tell me how you try to find them, and why a caster would become your follower, and it will still be a difficult die roll. [If you just came back to town as heroes, it would be much easier, of course.]

3. What do your players actually use them for if at all?
Don't know yet. I could see having them run a farm or tavern or some such, or staffing a castle. But it isn't up to me; that's the PCs' decision.

[Biggus]

3) usually, iirc, they’re used to run a ship, staff a base, or otherwise man such suboptimal uses of resources. And also to make knowledge checks. Thus the popularity of “Expert”.


I think that skills generally are the main use for followers. A 1st-level Expert with Skill Focus can manage a total bonus of 10ish in their main skill, or 14ish with a masterwork tool and aid another. There are lots of skills it could be handy to have someone competent in at your disposal: Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Info, Knowledge, Sense Motive and Speak Language can all be used without putting the follower in danger. Depending on the circumstances, maybe Bluff, Disable Device, Open Lock, Search, Sleight of Hand, Survival and Use Magic Device too.

If you're allowed to have PC classed followers obviously there are lots of other potential uses for them.

[Crake]

Epic? Thanks! Nice memory. I never would have found it there.

Its a pretty firmly embedded citation in my mind cause I referred to it plenty for one of my campaigns, I can't remember which one.


Hmmm… with some negative-LA races, perhaps combined with curing lycanthropy cheese, it should be possible to snag a Prestige class pre-epic. I’m just not sure it’s worth it.

It's not actual LA, they're just treated as X levels higher for the calculation, so negative LA wouldn't offset it at all, and curing lycanthropy wouldn't really affect anything either, since Lycanthropy adds and removes ECL, and if a follow goes over that ECL, they cease to be a follower, its not like they're trying to qualify for something.

[aglondier]

So I get the power boost of the 2 level lower cohort makes Leadership pretty busted, but how often does it really come up? I guess I'm just looking to see how you all run it. Here are some questions about your tables (not RAW):

1. Do you let the followers other than the cohort gain experience?
2. What classes do you give them?
3. What do your players actually use them for if at all?

At my current table, I play a dwarf fighter/magus who just took Leadership at 7th level. I gave the DM the general parameters for what I wanted from a cohort (lg dwarf warpriest, forgepriest archetype, skills mainly craft weaponsmith and profession soldier) and let him introduce a suitable character into the narrative...
Answering your questions...
1. I will be advancing specific followers to fill higher level slots and backfilling with new 1st level followers.
2. They will mostly arrive as warriors and a few adepts, but will be retrained as fighters, clerics, magus, and/or warpriests as needed.
3. The followers will make up the bulk of a mercenary company. As my dwarf character seeks to rise above his lowly station, he needs a title that he can achieve that cannot be taken from him. Warthane, is the title given to/assumed by the leader of a company of dwarven warriors. Leading a company is his ticket to status.

At previous tables that I have run...
1. It's been kinda nebulous and undefined. As long as the numbers match the table, I'm pretty easy.
2. Pretty much anything the players ask for...and can justify...no potion/wondrous item sweatshops in this game thanks...
3. Usually the horde of background npcs that make the players lives easier, or justify their role is society...rogues for a thieves guild, soldiers for a barony, acolytes and temple guards at a cathedral...etc...

[Telonius]

Years ago, I played a Shackled City campaign, where we had a few players drop out. My Vow of Poverty Monk, Mordecai, took the Leadership feat. We'd been donating all my gold to the Lantern Street Orphanage (per VoP), so the DM ruled that I now had an orphanage full of "Lantern Street Irregulars." As we progressed in level, I got additional followers, and the donations got way past absurd. The orphanage re-branded into the "Mordecai School for orphans who can't read good (and want to do other stuff good too)," that provided free education to orphans. About 9/10 of the kids in Cauldron were enrolled before we thought to ask whether there were any kids in town who weren't orphans (or at least pretending to be).

[spectralphoenix]

They can also be good for helping with collateral damage. Warrior followers won't help you fight a high-level necromancer attacking a village, but they could hold off skeletons elsewhere, evacuate townsfolk, and dig people out of the rubble afterwards. I think they can be helpful for dealing with low-level problems the PCs have outgrown to keep them free to go after the high level ones.

[smetzger]

cohort - I let the player design it and essentially play it. Gets NPC gear to start off with. The the player gives any additional items.

followers - these are usually NPC classes. DM has complete control. They don't go on 'adventures'. About 1/3 of them are helpful, 1/3 are background and the other 1/3 I have cause trouble for the player (get in fights with each other, get in trouble with local town laws, get in trouble with local thieve's guild) and are generally a headache.

[ManicOppressive]

I don't like to get into the balance tier at my table but rather than try to balance Leadership around costing a feat at all I just made it a core mechanic that everyone at least technically has, with feats that then turn it up in various ways. Everyone having a cohort is really helpful for me as a DM to both have an in-character voice in situations and to keep a constant character dynamic that the player has control over. I let players build and/or run cohorts if I feel they can handle it and if they have a firm concept, otherwise I do one or both.

To the degree that the player is interested in customizing followers I allow it. They don't usually get to have more than 1 multiclass/PrC but I'm a sucker for cool characters so it does happen sometimes. They don't gain XP but my default assumption is that most higher level slots gained will be filled with lower-level characters and the low-level slots will be new characters. This keeps a constantly revolving cast of minor recurring characters around and I just table manage against expectations of piling artificers into slots or swarming encounters. I don't really run a setting or table where a lack of care for the lives or well-being (including flagrant use of their personal time) of characters around you is really going to be received well, so that's usually a pretty strong incentive not to try to overuse followers in numbers.

Followers who aren't being firmly used (usually most of them for less interested players) just serve as, essentially, a pool of people in any familiar town or place that are likely to side with you in fights or exchanges, or cut you slightly better rates, or just get you a room to sleep in.

Honestly though the result of this is just that I kind of cut loose and let my more inventive players fill the setting with cool characters around their Charisma monsters and get it out of their systems. The core advice I guess I have from this is that it's way easier to just balance Leadership as a system everyone touches than to try to balance literal other characters in exchange for a feat.

[Max Caysey]

So I get the power boost of the 2 level lower cohort makes Leadership pretty busted, but how often does it really come up? I guess I'm just looking to see how you all run it. Here are some questions about your tables (not RAW):

1. Do you let the followers other than the cohort gain experience?
2. What classes do you give them?
3. What do your players actually use them for if at all?

I very much dislike the idea that as your Leadership score goes up you attract new higher level followers and none gain experience. It makes more narrative sense that you'd gain the loyalty of a select few then as they do their own stuff to further your ideals they gain in power which increases the influence pulling in the newer lower level dudes to join up. Also, why not reward them if a few join you on a mission and can contribute?
I keep them all but the cohort to the actual NPC classes, level 1 followers are just Commoners. 2 and higher can be Experts and Warriors. Normally I'll have 1 or 2 of the highest level followers be Adepts.
Another thing is that Leadership is not a feat at my table. I use the guidelines but the players have to do stuff to earn followers, so you could get a max number free with good roleplay, or just not even think about it and maybe still encounter a few NPCs that are willing to help anyway. Whatever makes sense to the story.

Cohorts level when leader level, and stay 2 back. Every follower uses the NPC starting Wealth as an allowance for the leader to equip. And all followers and cohort are build using character classes. Cohort gets elite array, followers non-elite array.

If you equip your followers for less than theirs starting gold at their level 900 for a level 1, then you pool that money to be able to spend that equipping some follower or other for more money than he/she would have from WBL.

Cohort usually follow the PCs around as helper, bodyguard, support. Followers usually stay home but can be uses actively if it does not slow things down too much.

[Mordante]

Why is this feat so popular? Most players in the parties I play or DM in don't like this feat because of the extended administration required. Having an up to date spell list is often a challenge enough. Having a group of people following you around makes it even worse.

[KoDT69]

Honestly over the years my players have actively ignored that they even had followers which is fine but they made sure to put those numbers on the character sheets! One time my daughter was playing a Rogue and I decided to work in an NPC Rogue from her background and instead of that helping pull her in... She basically told her cohort to bugger off! Now I do have a success story, but it comes from one of the few times I could be a player back in AD&D 2E. I had a death cleric that had fighter followers for whatever reason. Not important. Average level was 17-19 for the group. We were evil but made it work. I rolled a sheet for my 6th level captain. A Dwarf Fighter named Dookie F***er the Elf Slayer. I kitted that dude out with the holy Trinity of gear. Girdle of Storm Giant Strength, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Hammer of Thunderbolts, 2 +3 Dwarven Throwers, good armor, Ring of Air Elemental Command (back then it granted flight), and a load of other stuff. He was the 2nd most powerful character next to me, again 17th level. My brother was so mad my low rent dwarf dude was outpacing him on damage output 😂

[Telonius]

Why is this feat so popular? Most players in the parties I play or DM in don't like this feat because of the extended administration required. Having an up to date spell list is often a challenge enough. Having a group of people following you around makes it even worse.

With an average or casual player, I'd agree. When you get a player with a lot of game mastery and who's capable of using it, it can be very powerful. One of the biggest limits that characters have to deal with is "action economy." A single character can only do so many things on their turn. You only get X attacks on a full attack, you're limited in how many actions you can take, and so on. A lot of the stronger options in the game are built around breaking that action economy. That's why you see things like Belt of Battle being suggested all the time: they let you cram more actions into a single turn. Because the more actions you can take, the more you can hurt or neutralize the enemies. In that sense, Leadership's Cohort is an extra turn's worth of actions, each round. The actions might not be as effective as yours are (since they are two levels behind), but it's a major offensive boost.

The trick is being able to manage it. An extra turn isn't worth quite as much if the player doesn't use it skillfully.

[DirePorcupine]

With an average or casual player, I'd agree. When you get a player with a lot of game mastery and who's capable of using it, it can be very powerful. One of the biggest limits that characters have to deal with is "action economy." A single character can only do so many things on their turn. You only get X attacks on a full attack, you're limited in how many actions you can take, and so on. A lot of the stronger options in the game are built around breaking that action economy. That's why you see things like Belt of Battle being suggested all the time: they let you cram more actions into a single turn. Because the more actions you can take, the more you can hurt or neutralize the enemies. In that sense, Leadership's Cohort is an extra turn's worth of actions, each round. The actions might not be as effective as yours are (since they are two levels behind), but it's a major offensive boost.

The trick is being able to manage it. An extra turn isn't worth quite as much if the player doesn't use it skillfully.

^This. That extra party member to cast haste, ready a counterspell, or flank with the take for those sweet d6s can make all the difference.

[icefractal]

Assuming that it's allowed to start with - which depends on the campaign - then:
* The cohort is basically the player's character, can be built like a PC, and is generally played by the player. Comes with NPC wealth for the level you get them, the PC can equip them further.
* The followers are NPCs, and while the player might often control them for convenience, I'd override that if they were ordered to do something too objectionable. The PC can say generally what type of followers they're looking for (warriors, craftsmen, scholars, mages, scouts, etc) but not specific builds.
* Followers can gain XP, but if they exceed what your Leadership score covers, then they feel confident enough to go off on their own and stop being followers - although they'd still be on friendly terms.

[Malphegor]

my goto is to have the cohort as an actual character, while the followers are literally just a number of npcs in your employee you have a hard number for to help the dm. they don’t need stats or equipment, just a vague level to fill in as needed. But then I prefer Merchant style leadership as of Power of Faerun over militaristic or administrative or religious