Best Ceremorphosis Candidates?

[SecretAsianMan]

TLDR: DM gave me fifteen Illithid tadpoles. What creatures would be best to transform into a Half-Illithid (assuming I always have control over them and some can live back at base)? Will probably make them Undead to remove weekly brain/food requirement.

LoM pg 63 states: "In general, donors must be humanoid, mammalian, between 5 feet 4 inches and 6 feet 2 inches tall, and weigh from 130 to 270 pounds... Races smaller or larger than these, whether in height, weight, or size category, are never used, and neither are reptilian or amphibian races." The only known exceptions to this are Brainstealer Dragons (an obvious choice), Mindwitnesses (Beholder), Uchuulon (not technically successful Ceremorphosis of a Chuul), Mozgriken/Gnome Ceremorph/Squidling (Gnome), Tazakandi (Lizardmen), & Urophion (Roper).

Since typically transforming a creature turns the creature into a Mind Flayer (the base creature doesn't matter), let's assume the Half-Illithid template applies (Underdark pg 90-91): +4 INT/WIS/CHA, Mind Blast, Improved Grab, Extract, Psionics, Darkvision, SR 10+HD, NA +1.

So far I have these candidates:

Dragon (Brainstealer Dragon, DM 337 pg 25-27): Obvious choice for its spellcasting/psionics, frightful presence, SR, & physical capabilities.
Beholder (Mindwitness, Und pg 89-90): If we apply lore from 5E, they enhance the psionics of creatures around them and are naturally very obedient: useful to keep at home base to enhance things.
Gnome (Gnome Ceremorph, technically 5E): Would be useful to keep back at base as an Artificer to make stuff.
Abeoleth (MM 8-9): Not RAW, but would be extremely useful for its racial memory. I'd be willing to lose one or two tadpoles just to get access to this.
Zern (MM4 195), (Greater) Doppelganger (MM 68), or Changeling (MM3 25, Hum.): Changelings are RAW but probably wouldn't keep their Alter Self special ability, so grab the others as Half-Illithids: Zern can shift to large size to more easily grapple with creatures and both can infiltrate by changing their appearance.
Black Ethergaunt (FF 65): Not RAW, but 9th lvl spells are amazing.


I was also thinking Death Giants (MM3 55, good combatants) and Spellweavers (MM2 187, 1,000 mile telepathy w/ other Spellweavers), but realized this kind of just started to look like a follower wishlist, regardless of the ceremorphosis. Any creatures and Undead templates you guys can think of that would benefit from the across-the-board mental ability boosts? Ghost gets CHA to AC and Dry Liches gets CHA×HD extra HP.

[redking]

Let's NOT assume that the half illithid template applies. Ceremorphosis simply creates an illithid. Maybe something like a paragon creature host might create a paragon mind flayer. I don't know.

[Maat Mons]

Why wouldn’t you want a regular illithid? Using the version in XPH, they get manifesting as a 9th-level Psion.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Do we know if the original's personality is conserved when creating an half-illithid instead of an illithid? It seems probable considering the creature keeps their class levels and feats. In that case, the first thing to do is probably to just turn your whole party (or however many are willing) into half-illithids. They're probably the strongest humanoids you will encounter willing to go through that for power, and SR 10+HD is absolutely nothing to sneeze at. Moreover, they will get access to Charm Monster, which allows you to recruit more powerful individuals for Ceremorphosis. Afterwards, well, a small number of half-illithid humanoid "civilians" would be almost useless, and specific failed illithids would be better.
Making a brainstealer dragon would be ideal, but no doubt hard to come by a dragon with a decent age that you could beat into submission. In my opinion, a mindwitness would be perfect.
I don't think you could make your DM agree to give you an Aboleth, or an Ethergaunt and have Ceremorphosis work. At most you could Charm an aboleth to gain access to its memory for a while.

One of the best ways to gain the most out of your tadpoles without taking a lot of time looking for exotic creatures is to just kidnap a random gnome or human, then cast Curse of Lycanthropy to make them into werebears, or wereapes, or wereroc if they happen to be a duergar of at least 7th level. Then, you use the tadpole, and you get a great minion with high strength who may even be able to fly and act as a spy.



Let's NOT assume that the half illithid template applies. Ceremorphosis simply creates an illithid. Maybe something like a paragon creature host might create a paragon mind flayer. I don't know.

Ceremorphosis creates an illithid when the host is human. Any other humanoid creates a half-illithid.


Why wouldn’t you want a regular illithid? Using the version in XPH, they get manifesting as a 9th-level Psion.

The thing is, illithids get a new mind when they undergo ceremorphosis, and I'm not sure whatever ability OP uses to control the ceremorphed creatures would still work.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you trust them not to eat you, try getting one of these installed on yourself and your party/allies. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?177889-Brainstorm-for-Psionic-Tricks-Tactics-and-Combos-Handbook&p=23285432&viewfull=1#post23285432)

Best done if you can body-swap with something else so you can keep an eye on the process, just in case.

[SecretAsianMan]

Why wouldn’t you want a regular illithid? Using the version in XPH, they get manifesting as a 9th-level Psion.


Don't get me wrong: I'm fully planning on getting at least 3 regular Illithids so I can have them create Voidminds (MM3 pg187). I was just wondering what clever ideas the forum had.

[ciopo]

For what it's worth, the most recent print of half illithid template was in Underdark and the appliability of it was written as "any nonconstruct corporeal creature" instead of "humanoids except humans", that of course kinda ignores lore and precedence, but what kimd of power hungry considers the spirit of the laws instead if the letters ;)

[Tzardok]

For what it's worth, the most recent print of half illithid template was in Underdark and the appliability of it was written as "any nonconstruct corporeal creature" instead of "humanoids except humans", that of course kinda ignores lore and precedence, but what kimd of power hungry considers the spirit of the laws instead if the letters ;)

Uhm, first, the older versions of the template also said "any nonconstruct corporeal creature". Second, how does this ignore lore and precedence, when mindwitnesses have been around before?

[hamishspence]

Uhm, first, the older versions of the template also said "any nonconstruct corporeal creature".

Not in 3e. The 3e Fiend Folio version of the template, published a few months before Underdark, says "Any humanoid other than a human".




LoM pg 63 states: "In general, donors must be humanoid, mammalian, between 5 feet 4 inches and 6 feet 2 inches tall, and weigh from 130 to 270 pounds... Races smaller or larger than these, whether in height, weight, or size category, are never used, and neither are reptilian or amphibian races." The only known exceptions to this are Brainstealer Dragons (an obvious choice), Mindwitnesses (Beholder), Uchuulon (not technically successful Ceremorphosis of a Chuul), Mozgriken/Gnome Ceremorph/Squidling (Gnome), Tazakandi (Lizardmen), & Urophion (Roper).

Since typically transforming a creature turns the creature into a Mind Flayer (the base creature doesn't matter), let's assume the Half-Illithid template applies (Underdark pg 90-91): +4 INT/WIS/CHA, Mind Blast, Improved Grab, Extract, Psionics, Darkvision, SR 10+HD, NA +1.
If the base creature is humanoid, mammalian (not reptilian, not amphibian) between 5 feet 4 inches and 6 feet 2 inches tall, and weigh from 130 to 270 pounds, etc - then they become a basic Mind Flayer, rather than a Half-Illithid.

If one or more factors are missing from the prerequisites - but they are humanoid - then FF template is valid.

If they aren't humanoid, but are corporeal , non-construct - then Underdark template is valid.

[Tzardok]

Not in 3e. The 3e Fiend Folio version of the template, published a few months before Underdark, says "Any humanoid other than a human".

Huh. I think I need to go the doctor. Not only could I have sworn that Fiend Folio said something else when I just looked it up, I also was 100% sure that Underdark was published much earlier than Fiend Folio.

Sorry about that.

[hamishspence]

FF was one of the last 3.0 books - and had some, but not all, 3.5's changes built in (the remaining changes were in a free online update).

Underdark was one of the first 3.5 books.

The respective publication dates are:

April 2003: FF
July 2003: 3.5 PHB
October 2003: Underdark.

[Beni-Kujaku]

For what it's worth, the most recent print of half illithid template was in Underdark and the appliability of it was written as "any nonconstruct corporeal creature" instead of "humanoids except humans", that of course kinda ignores lore and precedence, but what kimd of power hungry considers the spirit of the laws instead if the letters ;)

That's not the same kind of half-illithid. The Underdark one is the "progeny of mind flayers and various other creatures", made a similar way to other "half" templates, by tampering with the normal reproductive process of the host. They're not created with ceremorphosis (well, at least in 3.x. In 5e, they didn't bother with all of that and mindwitnesses are just created by ceremorphing a beholder). And of course, both template have the exact same effect, down to the tentacle damage and the fact that they are inherited, even though the Fiend Folio one would probably make much more sense as acquired.

[ShurikVch]

It wasn't updated to 3.X, but - in earlier editions - there was such creatures as "lithidrow": ceremorphosis of drow resulted in the creatures which looked like a regular dark elves... That is - if we ignore the fact their arms were replaced with tentacles (three on each side); and yes - they could extract brains with it...

[Maat Mons]

I'm not actually sure undeath removes an illithid's need for brains. Illithid vampires explicitly need both brains and blood. You might be better off capturing a two-headed creature, so it doesn't die when you extract one brain. Then you can use Regenerate, or similar, to grow the brain back.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm not actually sure undeath removes an illithid's need for brains. Illithid vampires explicitly need both brains and blood. You might be better off capturing a two-headed creature, so it doesn't die when you extract one brain. Then you can use Regenerate, or similar, to grow the brain back.Ghost illithids must be miserable.

Also, trolls often (apparently) have two heads, and they come with regen built-in.

Better yet if you have one (well, two) that is a masochist and enjoys such things. Even if it requires a certain item in the BoVD.

[SecretAsianMan]

I'm not actually sure undeath removes an illithid's need for brains. Illithid vampires explicitly need both brains and blood. You might be better off capturing a two-headed creature, so it doesn't die when you extract one brain. Then you can use Regenerate, or similar, to grow the brain back.

It depends on the type of undead created. You're right Illithid Vampires require blood & brains (LoM 160: " need both fresh blood and fresh brains to survive.") It is similar to Vampires, who require blood to survive (though Illithid Vampires are explicitly something different than a typical vampire).

Libris Mortis pg 8-10 details the three categories of Undead 'needs:' Diet-Dependent, Inescapable Craving, & Not Required. If we choose an undead that has [I]Not Required for everything (ex: Swordwraith, Mummy, or Quth-Maren), the undead Illithid will truly have no need, nor desire for sustenance. If the undead type chosen is problematic because of its violent/rash tendencies, just leave it as a controlled undead instead of free-willed.

[SecretAsianMan]

Not in 3e. The 3e Fiend Folio version of the template, published a few months before Underdark, says "Any humanoid other than a human".


If the base creature is humanoid, mammalian (not reptilian, not amphibian) between 5 feet 4 inches and 6 feet 2 inches tall, and weigh from 130 to 270 pounds, etc - then they become a basic Mind Flayer, rather than a Half-Illithid.

If one or more factors are missing from the prerequisites - but they are humanoid - then FF template is valid.

If they aren't humanoid, but are corporeal , non-construct - then Underdark template is valid.

Thanks for the clarification! It seems there are only a few differences between the FF & Und templates:

FF changes all HD to d8s
Und changes racial HD to d8s (doesn't touch additional class/template HD)

FF extraction works instantly on the next round after 1 full round of all tentacles in contact
Und extraction requires another grapple check and it lists creature types against which it's ineffective (ex: plants, oozes)

FF states Improved Grab works on same size or smaller
Und states Improved Grab works on S/M/L & H if they can reach the head

FF Mind Blast is DC 13 + 1/2 INT mod
Und Mind Blast is DC 10 + 1/2 racial HD + CHA mod

FF Psionics DC 13 + spell lvl
Und Psionics DC 10 + spell lvl + CHA mod

FF gets telepathy 100 ft
Und gets nothing


So... any suggestions on creatures into whose heads I'll shove tadpoles?

[spectralphoenix]

A Kraken with a template or something that gives it a fly or land speed? +44 grapple checks and 20 CHA to power the psionics. All Hail Flying Spaghetti Cthulhu!

[Dalmosh]

I'm not actually sure undeath removes an illithid's need for brains. Illithid vampires explicitly need both brains and blood. You might be better off capturing a two-headed creature, so it doesn't die when you extract one brain. Then you can use Regenerate, or similar, to grow the brain back.

Generally speaking, it does.

Sentient undead illithids will almost certainly keep eating brains anyway, just because they like to. That's explicitly the situation with Alhoons. Illithid Vampires are a special case, and a specific form of undead, rather than being Illithids with the Vampire template.