Sun Blade vs Flame Tongue Rapier

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I’m playing a Kobold Dex Barb (sunlight sensitivity won’t be an issue). I have the chance to get either a Flame Tongue Rapier or a Sun Blade to go with my +1 shield (21 AC) and my Cloak of Displacement. I’m 8th level with 20 Dex, so my normal attack bonus is +8. We are doing an accelerated adventure, so the next portion will be level 8 and then the following will be level 15. The BBEG is a black dragon and we have run into several mummies and some ancient necromancy relics (not sure how much that will remain part of the campaign).

Which sword do you think I should go for? Does almost always getting advantage on attacks (Pack Tactics) push it far enough to go with flame tongue, since I should be hitting more often anyway? Since I am Dex based I will actually be getting advantage as a Barb, because I won’t be using Reckless Attack.

So it’s a matter of whether +2 to hit and damage with radiant damage (extra 1d8 vs undead) is better than 1d8 slashing +2d6 fire. I’d say the Sun Blade seems like it’s still better, but I’m curious if you guys think Pack Tactics changes things.

It does seem to me like the Flame Tongue will do more damage on average, even though fire resistance is more common. One big pro to the Sun Sword is that I can change my name to Thundarr.

[Chronos]

A flametongue is a normal steel sword that happens to be on fire. A sunblade is a lightsabre. Rule of cool here is quite clear.

[nickl_2000]

From an optimization standpoint it comes down to how often you get advantage. How often do you get it from pact tactics or that Barb ability (reckless strike or whatever it is)

[Xihirli]

From an optimization standpoint it comes down to how often you get advantage. How often do you get it from pact tactics or that Barb ability (reckless strike or whatever it is)

Never from the barb ability as a DEXbarian.

[nickl_2000]

Never from the barb ability as a DEXbarian.

Fair, I've literally never played a barbarian, so it's one of my weaker classes to know off the top of my head.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This is really monster and campaign dependent. If you're fighting undead, high AC opponents, and fire resistant enemies you want the sun blade. Otherwise, I tend to agree with you; +7 damage, especially if you regularly get advantage is better.

[Sandeman]

This is really monster and campaign dependent. If you're fighting undead, high AC opponents, and fire resistant enemies you want the sun blade. Otherwise, I tend to agree with you; +9 damage, especially if you regularly get advantage is better.

Where did the +9 come from?
The average of 2d6 is 7 if I am not mistaken.

[sithlordnergal]

Something to keep in mind, do you have Sunlight Sensitivity? If you do, do you have a way around Sunlight Sensitivity? If you do have Sunlight Sensitivity without a way to neutralize then you'll want the Flametongue, because the Sun Blade emits Sunlight which triggers Sunlight Sensitivity.

[tiornys]

Which sword do you think I should go for? Does almost always getting advantage on attacks (Pack Tactics) push it far enough to go with flame tongue, since I should be hitting more often anyway? Since I am Dex based I will actually be getting advantage as a Barb, because I won’t be using Reckless Attack.
Assuming I've calculated your base damage correctly as 1d8+5 (1d8+7 when raging), the Flame Tongue wins pretty handily. Even against foes resistant to Fire, if you have advantage the Flame Tongue does more damage against ACs of 19 or lower. If they take normal damage from Fire, Flame Tongue wins all the way up to AC 23 when you rage and lack advantage or AC 24 with advantage (increase these AC values by 2 at level 15 thanks to proficiency bonus +5). Unless you expect a lot of undead or fire immune opponents, the Flame Tongue offers better DPR.


This is really monster and campaign dependent. If you're fighting undead, high AC opponents, and fire resistant enemies you want the sun blade. Otherwise, I tend to agree with you; +9 damage, especially if you regularly get advantage is better.

Where did the +9 come from?
The average of 2d6 is 7 if I am not mistaken.
The difference in damage is actually 5, since Sunblade has a flat +2 while Flame Tongue averages +7.


Something to keep in mind, do you have Sunlight Sensitivity? If you do, do you have a way around Sunlight Sensitivity? If you do have Sunlight Sensitivity without a way to neutralize then you'll want the Flametongue, because the Sun Blade emits Sunlight which triggers Sunlight Sensitivity.
The opening line says he doesn't need to worry about Sunlight Sensitivity.

[da newt]

The sun sword radiates "sun light" so this HAS to be an issue for a Volo's Kobold unless there is a home brew ruling in place, right?

I'm assuming 'pact tactics' = Volos and NOT MMM kobold ...

[bayjorntreeroot]

The sun sword radiates "sun light" so this HAS to be an issue for a Volo's Kobold unless there is a home brew ruling in place, right?

I'm assuming 'pact tactics' = Volos and NOT MMM kobold ...

The character could have the Knaves Eye Patch, a home brew item, or a home brew ruling.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Where did the +9 come from?
The average of 2d6 is 7 if I am not mistaken.

My bad on the math. Will go edit.

[kazaryu]

I’m playing a Kobold Dex Barb (sunlight sensitivity won’t be an issue). I have the chance to get either a Flame Tongue Rapier or a Sun Blade to go with my +1 shield (21 AC) and my Cloak of Displacement. I’m 8th level with 20 Dex, so my normal attack bonus is +8. We are doing an accelerated adventure, so the next portion will be level 8 and then the following will be level 15. The BBEG is a black dragon and we have run into several mummies and some ancient necromancy relics (not sure how much that will remain part of the campaign).

Which sword do you think I should go for? Does almost always getting advantage on attacks (Pack Tactics) push it far enough to go with flame tongue, since I should be hitting more often anyway? Since I am Dex based I will actually be getting advantage as a Barb, because I won’t be using Reckless Attack.

So it’s a matter of whether +2 to hit and damage with radiant damage (extra 1d8 vs undead) is better than 1d8 slashing +2d6 fire. I’d say the Sun Blade seems like it’s still better, but I’m curious if you guys think Pack Tactics changes things.

It does seem to me like the Flame Tongue will do more damage on average, even though fire resistance is more common. One big pro to the Sun Sword is that I can change my name to Thundarr.

an actually important question. what subclass of barbarian? a zealot barbarian, for example, would push things in favor of the sunblade. possibly not enough to make it the better option, but it is relevant.


Assuming I've calculated your base damage correctly as 1d8+5 (1d8+7 when raging), the Flame Tongue wins pretty handily. Even against foes resistant to Fire, if you have advantage the Flame Tongue does more damage against ACs of 19 or lower. If they take normal damage from Fire, Flame Tongue wins all the way up to AC 23 when you rage and lack advantage or AC 24 with advantage (increase these AC values by 2 at level 15 thanks to proficiency bonus +5). Unless you expect a lot of undead or fire immune opponents, the Flame Tongue offers better DPR.
dex barb, so no bonus rage damage.

soo...if we assume base damage is 1d8+5 (9.5). the accuracy corrected damage for both (assuming a 10 is needed to hit)

flametonuge: 9.5+7=16.5*.7975= 13.16 damage per hit.
sunblade=9.5+2=11.5*.8775=10.1 damage per hit. so...obviously well in favor of the flame tongue. but if a fire resistant foe its...
9.5+3.5=13*.7975=10.3

if we move accuracy to where you'd need an 11 (with fire resistance) you get
flametonge: (9.5+3.5)*.75= 9.75
sun blade: (9.5+2)*.84=9.66

and then for 12:
flametonuge:9.07
sunblade: 9.2

so with fire resistance (and adv), the brake point is whatever AC requires the barb to roll between an 11 and a 12 to hit.
so die rolls are accuracy agnostic. no matter what the accuracy numbers are, the breakpoint will always between needing to roll an 11 and a 12 so long as the damage numbers remain true. meaning that even if he gains external bonuses to-hit. this should still be the breakpoint. all he needs to do is add his own to-hit number to it in order to determine accuracy ranges. so like...even if he gets to a place where he has a +11 to-hit (i.e. normal proficiency scaling) that breakpoint remains the same. but instead it now means an AC22/23. which is REALLY FREAKING HIGH. i plan to cover this a bit more at the end

ok, so against fire resistant foes you still need their AC to be high enough to require a 12 to-hit for the sunblade to win out (so long as you have adv). meaning that even with a +6 to-hit, they still need to be AC18+. which would ordinarily be pretty rare. so i don't think there's really a need to calculate for non fire resistant foes..the AC target would be astronomical.

if you don't have advantage....for a 10 on the die
flametongue: 16.5*.55=9.075
sun blade: 11.5*.65=7.48
with fire resistance
FT: 13*.55=7.15

w/out fire resist. 12 on die
FT: 16.5*.45=7.425
SB: 11.5*.55=6.3

conclusion:

unless you're fighting a ton of fire immune enemies, or a ton of undead OR a ton of REALLY high (like, 20+) AC opponents the flame tongue is the way to go. this could change depending on what type of barbarian you are. these calculations also assume a 20 in dex. but if your dexterity is lower, all that does is make the conclusion even more true. a higher base damage favors the sunblade. Which is why i asked about subclass. because some subclasses increase the base damage of your attacks, which might push things in the SB favor...not likely, but its possible. (i didn't run calculations for undead, but the damage profiles are similar. SB does an extra 1d8+2 (6.5) vs undead as opposed to 2d6 (7) vs everyone. while having superior accuracy. so its likely that against undead SB will edge out FT in most scenarios, especially if they're incorporeal undead (which are commonly resistance to all or most elemental damages)

edit: all that said....a SB is basically a lightsaber so...ya know. even if its suboptimal it still may be the way to go lol.

2nd edit: replace applicable references to 'str' with 'dex'. my b.

[tiornys]

dex barb, so no bonus rage damage.
Whoops, missed that. As your math shows, lower base damage pushes the comparison even further towards Flame Tongue.

[kazaryu]

Whoops, missed that. As your math shows, lower base damage pushes the comparison even further towards Flame Tongue.

yeh, i mentioned that in my conclusion somewhere..it think. although i was referring to if his dex was lower than 20 (although come to think of it...i may have said str...but either way. yeah).

[5eNeedsDarksun]

A couple of posts here that seem to take for granted that the light sabre is 'cooler'. I suppose if we were talking about a futuristic or space setting I'd agree, but for a medieval setting I find it a little weird and think the flaming sword is awesome. Just my 2 coppers.

[Sandeman]

A couple of posts here that seem to take for granted that the light sabre is 'cooler'. I suppose if we were talking about a futuristic or space setting I'd agree, but for a medieval setting I find it a little weird and think the flaming sword is awesome. Just my 2 coppers.

Agreed.
Im currently playing in a Warhammer Fantasy inspired campaign. And sword with a blue flame would be an appropriate Sword of Tzeentch.

[Angelalex242]

Flame tongue is one of the better weapons you can have in general. 2d6 fire is VERY Solid. I am somewhat disappointed the corresponding ice brand doesn't do 2d6 cold.