A weird build - Lizardfolk Swordsmaster

[Postmodernist]

So, back in the day, I played Earthdawn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthdawn), and really loved the flavor of the T'skrang race. I had a T'skrang Swordsmaster who was super fun to play, and I'm tempted to recreate him as a lizardman with some sword fighty classes. Lots of options, but the build is... challenging, and a hodgepodge of classes. Hence why I'm requesting assistance from the Playground. My initial thoughts with a 27 point buy (pre-ASIs) are:

(Note: I am committed to nothing in particular about this build, and I fully expect suggestions of editorial restraint telling me to "just go full CLASS X." Please refrain from any "just go full caster" arguments as well. I'm not against some caster levels, but want to stick to the swordsman theme. Yes, I've looked at other threads on this subject. No, they weren't helpful.)

STR 10 (not needed)
DEX 15 (necessary, ASI bumps and half feats will go here)
CON 14 (it's Con, bump it)
INT 10 (could be dumped to 8 not sure where)
WIS 14 (added to AC with monk)
CHA 13 (min for bard entry, def possibly bumped)

Classes (no particular order, but likely starting fighter for STR/CON saves) BM Fighter 4/College of Swords Bard 6/Swashbuckler (Assassin?) Rogue 4/Kensei Monk 4/Something else 2 (Gloomstalker ranger?)

Pro: lizardmen can go unarmored
Con: armor proficiencies from various classes are wasted

Pro: lots of ways to add stats to damage or initiative and stuff.
Con: MAD as all get out

Other considerations:

We're mostly in monk for Unarmored Defense, and the Kensei "it's a magic item" type features strike me as mediocre. Aside from the "add Ki to damage" (which is better if you stay a monk for scaling), flurry, and +2 AC features, I'm not sure Monk is worth more than 1 level, to capitalize on our Lizardman WIS bonus. Indeed, going unarmored is mostly for flavor and cool points, and we might be better off wearing armor. Not sure how to make up those levels, though Gloomstalker Ranger or more Fighter are contenders.

Is it remotely worth pursuing lots of Fighter for the extra attacks?

Barbarian instead of Monk? (Reflavor rage as intense focus or whatever.)

Is it worth going 4 levels in some of these classes just for the ASIs because we're so MAD?

Suggested feats? Defensive Duelist? Lucky? Resilience?

Fighting style is Duelist, obviously, with maybe the Battlemaster-y one picked up through College of Swords?

Battlemaster Maneuvers: Riposte, Precision Attack, Trip

Sorry if this is a little all over the place. Suggestions greatly appreciated!

[RogueJK]

I'm not sure Monk is worth more than 1 level, to capitalize on our Lizardman WIS bonus.

You'd actually get no AC benefit from your WIS bonus.


Lizardfolk have racial unarmored AC of 13+DEX.

Monk lets you have an unarmored AC of 10+WIS+DEX.

But it's an either/or situation, not both. When calculating your AC you pick one or the other. A Lizardfolk Monk doesn't get 13+DEX+WIS.


So with a Lizardfolk with 15 DEX and 14 WIS, your racial unarmored AC would be 13+2=15, or your monk unarmored AC would be 10+2+2=14.

Therefore, the monk AC is the worse option. Don't bother with any Monk levels. This also means you can wield a shield for +2 AC with your racial AC, without worrying about cancelling out your Monk unarmored AC ability.


BM Fighter 4/College of Swords Bard 6/Swashbuckler (Assassin?) Rogue 4/Kensei Monk 4/Something else 2

Why are you trying to stack on so many classes? All you're going to be doing is watering down the character by picking up a bunch of low-level abilities, but not ever getting any high level abilities. Your ability pool will be wide, but very shallow.

Instead, I'd suggest picking one primary class, and then perhaps consider adding in another class, if there are some other specific abilities you're after. This approach not only solves your ASI issues, but more importantly allows your character to scale towards obtaining higher level abilities while all the other PCs are getting theirs, rather than quickly falling behind the curve with numerous class dalliances.

The best multiclass combinations rarely include more than 2 classes (and that's often just one primary class supplemented by only a 1-3 level dip into another class). And they basically never include more than 3.

[CTurbo]

I agree with skipping Monk levels completely and just using the Lizardfolk's unarmored defense racial feature.

I also think you're wildly over-complicating this idea. You could literally just take 20 levels Battlemaster Fighter and be an amazing swordsman. You don't want a build that takes 10+ levels to come online.

If you're looking for some fun multiclassing combos, Any combination of Hexblade/Bladelock, Swords Bard, Swashbuckler, and maybe even 2-3 Paladin levels for smite would be more than fine. You wouldn't have to be MAD at all.

[Postmodernist]

You'd actually get no AC benefit from your WIS bonus.


Lizardfolk have racial unarmored AC of 13+DEX.

Monk lets you have an unarmored AC of 10+WIS+DEX.

But it's an either/or situation, not both. When calculating your AC you pick one or the other. A Lizardfolk Monk doesn't get 13+DEX+WIS.


So with a Lizardfolk with 15 DEX and 14 WIS, your racial unarmored AC would be 13+2=15, or your monk unarmored AC would be 10+2+2=14.

Therefore, the monk AC is the worse option. Don't bother with any Monk levels. This also means you can wield a shield for +2 AC with your racial AC, without worrying about cancelling out your Monk unarmored AC ability.

Didn't realize this was the case at all. This saves us both class levels, and attribute point buy. Thank you! Is there a particular rule citation for this, or is it something I just missed? Does this also apply to, say Barbarian and Monk stacking?


Why are you trying to stack on so many classes? All you're going to be doing is watering down the character by picking up a bunch of low-level abilities, but not ever getting any high level abilities. Your ability pool will be wide, but very shallow.

It was more of a thought experiment to clock in all the "sword-y" class types. I am by no means committed to this build. Also, it feels like a lot of the more flavorful abilities are front loaded, and it emulates the 3.5 dipping style a little. It's definitely not mandatory.



I also think you're wildly over-complicating this idea. You could literally just take 20 levels Battlemaster Fighter and be an amazing swordsman. You don't want a build that takes 10+ levels to come online.

If you're looking for some fun multiclassing combos, Any combination of Hexblade/Bladelock, Swords Bard, Swashbuckler, and maybe even 2-3 Paladin levels for smite would be more than fine. You wouldn't have to be MAD at all.

Oh, I am definitely overcomplicating it. I dismissed Paladin for flavor reasons, but I think you're right with throwing Hexblade in.

[JNAProductions]

It’s in the rules.

Unarmored Defense sets your AC to 10+Dex Mod+Other Stat Mod, for Barbarian and Monk. Unless something explicitly adds to AC, and does NOT give a new formula to use, it won’t stack.

Shields work with that.
Shield works with that.
Bladesong too.
Cover.

But not other formulas.

[Lavaeolus]

Didn't realize this was the case at all. This saves us both class levels, and attribute point buy. Thank you! Is there a particular rule citation for this, or is it something I just missed? Does this also apply to, say Barbarian and Monk stacking?

In Chapter 1 of the PHB, under "Armor Class", there's this:

Some spells and class features give you a different way to calculate your AC. If you have multiple features that give you different ways to calculate your AC, you choose which one to use.

There's also some Sage Advice (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-january-2016) that talks about Unarmored Defense, Natural Armor, etc. being mutually exclusive. And yeah, it applies to Barbarian and Monk's separate Unarmored Defenses. There are a few features that do just directly give a +AC buff, like Bladesinger's Bladesong, which would hypothetically work since they don't change how your AC works.

(There's actually an added complication with Monks and Barbarians. The multiclassing rules talk about how some features interact: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class." I usually let players ignore this bit and switch between which they want to apply. You know, if they do go the Monk/Barbarian route.)

[RogueJK]

Keep in mind, on a martial character (like, say... a swordmaster), Extra Attack is your primary means to scale your combat effectiveness. You won't want to delay that any more than absolutely necessary.

Characters are expected to get a huge step up in power at Level 5, which is when Extra Attack comes online for martial characters, and 3rd level spells come online for spellcasters. Delaying this step up in power to 10th level (like on a Fighter 4/Swords Bard 6) is going to put you noticeably behind the power curve from Level 5-9.

Yes, there are a few alternative martial options that don't necessarily need Extra Attack, like a Rogue who gets their damage boosts from piling up a fistful of Sneak Attack dice, or something like a Sorcadin who focuses on Booming Blade+Quickened Booming Blade+Divine Smite.

But it sounds like you're wanting to be an expert swordsman, and on a sword-focused character, try to get to Extra Attack ASAP, before you start worrying about picking up other class abilities. This means going for something like Battlemaster Fighter 5 or Swords Bard 6 first. Then consider whether to multiclass from there.


Trying to lump together 4/5/6 classes is a losing proposition. You'll feel noticeably underpowered the whole time, even once you get to your final build. A Fighter4/Bard4/Rogue4/Warlock4/Wizard4 can't hold a candle to a high level Fighter making 4 attacks, or a high level caster throwing down 9th level spells, or a high level Rogue dropping a huge amount of Sneak Attack dice each turn, or any other single class or simpler multiclass character who has access to high level abilities.

Instead, a much simpler and more efficient multiclass combination to consider for a Master Swordsman could be Battlemaster Fighter 5 or 6 -> Swashbuckler Rogue X. Or even Battlemaster 5 or 6 -> Swashbuckler 3 -> Fighter X, if you want a 3rd attack and more ASIs over additional Sneak Attack dice.

Or if you want something more magically-inclined, consider something like Hexblade 1/Swords Bard X, using Booming Blade to bridge the gap at Levels 5 and 6 until your Extra Attack comes online.

Either of those would represent a skilled swordsman well, and neither of those will feel underpowered, plus you'll be an effective character at any level of play.

[Postmodernist]

It’s in the rules.

Unarmored Defense sets your AC to 10+Dex Mod+Other Stat Mod, for Barbarian and Monk. Unless something explicitly adds to AC, and does NOT give a new formula to use, it won’t stack.

Shields work with that.
Shield works with that.
Bladesong too.
Cover.

But not other formulas.

Thanks!


In Chapter 1 of the PHB, under "Armor Class", there's this:


There's also some Sage Advice (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-january-2016) that talks about Unarmored Defense, Natural Armor, etc. being mutually exclusive. And yeah, it applies to Barbarian and Monk's separate Unarmored Defenses. There are a few features that do just directly give a +AC buff, like Bladesinger's Bladesong, which would hypothetically work since they don't change how your AC works.

(There's actually an added complication with Monks and Barbarians. The multiclassing rules talk about how some features interact: "If you already have the Unarmored Defense feature, you can't gain it again from another class." I usually let players ignore this bit and switch between which they want to apply. You know, if they do go the Monk/Barbarian route.)

This makes a lot of sense, and I appreciate both the clarification and rules citation. Also, I love your Harry DuBois avatar! Disco Elysium is the only game in the past few years that made me openly marvel, gasp, and laugh with that much intensity. Great game.



But it sounds like you're wanting to be an expert swordsman, and on a sword-focused character, try to get to Extra Attack ASAP, before you start worrying about picking up other class abilities. This means going for something like Battlemaster Fighter 5 or Swords Bard 6 first. Then consider whether to multiclass from there.

Instead, a much simpler and more efficient multiclass combination to consider for a Master Swordsman could be Battlemaster Fighter 5 or 6 -> Swashbuckler Rogue X. Or even Battlemaster 5 or 6 -> Swashbuckler 3 -> Fighter X, if you want a 3rd attack and more ASIs over additional Sneak Attack dice.

Or if you want something more magically-inclined, consider something like Hexblade 1/Swords Bard X, using Booming Blade to bridge the gap at Levels 5 and 6 until your Extra Attack comes online.

Either of those would represent a skilled swordsman well, and neither of those will feel underpowered, plus you'll be an effective character at any level of play.

This is definitely in-line with what I expected to hear from people, as outlined in my lengthy preamble: exert some restraint, and stick to one or two classes. Thank you.

[CTurbo]

3 levels of Ranger can be really good for a Battlemaster Fighter swordmaster

Gloom Stalker gives an extra attack in the first turn that you can use again if you Action Surge on your first turn. Fighter 5/Gloom Stalker 3 would be able to make 6 attacks in the first round with Action Surge.
Hunter's Horde Breaker feature is a rare way to get a free extra attack when applicable. Being able to walk up to 2 enemies and attack both of them more screams "Swordmaster" to me.


Usually when people mention Swordmaster, I think one handed sword wielding "duelist" but you can build a Greatsword wielding Great Weapon Master "Swordmaster" too.

[DarknessEternal]

Please check out this guy's excellent write up Great-Weapon-Master-Monk-build lizardfolk+monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?635027-Great-Weapon-Master-Monk-build&highlight=lizardfolk+monk)

[Amechra]

Unfortunately, 5e is designed with the assumption that you'll be focusing on a couple of ability scores max. You really don't have enough ASIs to be good at everything, so the order of the day is to focus.

Personally, I'd use the rules from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything to swap your bonuses to Constitution and Wisdom for bonuses to Charisma and Dexterity (which actually fits the T'skrang pretty well, funnily enough). Then I'd go with something like...

T'skrang Bard (College of Swords) 6/Fighter (Battle-Master) 4/Rogue (Swashbuckler) 10.

You really want 5 levels of Bard (for Font of Inspiration, which lets your Blade Flourishes recover on a short rest instead of a long rest — this is huge), which puts you 1 level away from grabbing Extra Attack anyway. If you have Extra Attack, there's no need to go past 4th level in Fighter... so it's great that Battle-Master is very frontloaded. And then you top out with Rogue, because why not?

[Kvess]

I worry that you are trying to do too much with this build. Your build, as it currently stands, will take a long time to come online and I am not sure it will amount to much.

I know that you said that you are not interested in a single-class build, but I would like to suggest something a bit funky. If you build a dexterity-focused battlemaster, you could take the Martial Adept and Fighting Initiate feats to pick up two extra superiority dice. These dice recover on a short rest, and would allow you to use maneuvers six times in encounters. As a single-class fighter, you take feats more often than other classes, allowing you to fill in gaps in your stats and pick up interesting supplemental abilities.

Going single-class would also allow you to reallocate your stats to take full advantage of your dexterity bonus. Dexterity-focused characters tend to do less damage in melee than strength-focused characters, but a 20 in dexterity gets you a +5 bonus to attack and damage rolls as well as AC and initiative. Every point you can increase your dexterity will matter in every encounter as difference between having AC 17 with a shield and having AC 19 is significant.

Outside of this advice, I would also recommend thinking about what makes your lizardfolk swordmaster a master swordslizard. Is it their perception? Their reflexes? Dedication to the craft? A legendary mentor? A prophecy? Sheer dumb luck? That might help you focus on what abilities really matter to this build, and what you can rely on other party members for.

[Postmodernist]

3 levels of Ranger can be really good for a Battlemaster Fighter swordmaster

Gloom Stalker gives an extra attack in the first turn that you can use again if you Action Surge on your first turn. Fighter 5/Gloom Stalker 3 would be able to make 6 attacks in the first round with Action Surge.
Hunter's Horde Breaker feature is a rare way to get a free extra attack when applicable. Being able to walk up to 2 enemies and attack both of them more screams "Swordmaster" to me.


Usually when people mention Swordmaster, I think one handed sword wielding "duelist" but you can build a Greatsword wielding Great Weapon Master "Swordmaster" too.

Good suggestions! Gloom stalker was a distant consideration, but that could be pretty strong.


Please check out this guy's excellent write up Great-Weapon-Master-Monk-build lizardfolk+monk (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?635027-Great-Weapon-Master-Monk-build&highlight=lizardfolk+monk)

I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for in this thread. There's so much debate in the thread, I'm not sure who to follow.


Unfortunately, 5e is designed with the assumption that you'll be focusing on a couple of ability scores max. You really don't have enough ASIs to be good at everything, so the order of the day is to focus.

Personally, I'd use the rules from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything to swap your bonuses to Constitution and Wisdom for bonuses to Charisma and Dexterity (which actually fits the T'skrang pretty well, funnily enough). Then I'd go with something like...

T'skrang Bard (College of Swords) 6/Fighter (Battle-Master) 4/Rogue (Swashbuckler) 10.

You really want 5 levels of Bard (for Font of Inspiration, which lets your Blade Flourishes recover on a short rest instead of a long rest — this is huge), which puts you 1 level away from grabbing Extra Attack anyway. If you have Extra Attack, there's no need to go past 4th level in Fighter... so it's great that Battle-Master is very frontloaded. And then you top out with Rogue, because why not?

Excellent points. The build is very T'skrang, and quite in-line with what I've been contemplating. Thanks!