Half-elf bard wizard? Please help me make the most out of a suboptimal combination

[gadren]

Hey all, I’m trying my hand at 5e for the first time, the game is starting at level 3, and I’ve decided to make a half-elf bard/wizard that is mostly wizard.
I’m aware that bard and wizard are not an optimal combination, but assuming that is what I am making, what are my best choices? How many levels of bard should I take? Should I take bard or wizard as my first level? What proficiencies and spells should I take? Should I take feats or just focus on ability scores? Any other advice is also welcome (unless that advice is to not play a half-elf bard/wizard).

[Bobthewizard]

If your stats support it, a wizard dip on a bard is good to get access to a decent damage cantrip, shield, absorb elements, and a few rituals.

The other way isn't as great. 1st level bards don't do a lot that wizards can't already do. A one level dip gets you access to dissonant whispers and command as well as light armor. So if I were doing this dip, I would take one level of wizard for wisdom saves, then one level of bard, then at wizard level 4 take moderately armored. Or perhaps 3 levels of valor bard for the medium armor and shield proficiency.

[Urbanmech]

Bard/Wizard is tough to pull off because both classes depend on different ability scores. I think a wizard dip on a bard is probably the best way to approach things. Start bard for the increased hit points, though if you want wisdom saves you can start wizard at the cost of 2 hit points.

Since you are starting at 3rd level go Bard 1/wizard 1/bard 2. For your wizard spells load up on defensive options and rituals. Shield, Absorb Elements, Detect Magic, Find Familiar, Unseen Servant, and either Fog Cloud or Magic Missile. Then go to bard 5 to get 3rd level spells. After that you can take another wizard level and pick up a subclass, war wizard or diviner are both fantastic. Up to you if you want to take a 3rd wizard level for access to wizard 2nd level spells, but you would be fine going back to bard for the rest of your levels.

I don’t think going the reverse of wizard with a splash of bard works nearly as well because so many of the bards features rely on a high charisma score.

[Keltest]

Adding my voice to the "bard dip isnt much use for a wizard, but the reverse can be good" camp. If youre sold on having both classes for whatever reason, you'd probably be better off focusing on the bard over the wizard.

[gadren]

Again, I’m aware it’s a bad combination because it’s MAD, I’m doing it anyway, I just want to know what other decisions I can make that will minimize the poor combo.

Character concept is that he didn’t qualify to become a wizard because the campaign setting only lets people from certain families become wizards, so he became a bard instead. He eventually stole a wizard’s spellbook and his identity, so he could pursue his dream of being a wizard, despite the extreme risk of impersonating a noble.

[Keltest]

Again, I’m aware it’s a bad combination because it’s MAD, I’m doing it anyway, I just want to know what other decisions I can make that will minimize the poor combo.

Character concept is that he didn’t qualify to become a wizard because the campaign setting only lets people from certain families become wizards, so he became a bard instead. He eventually stole a wizard’s spellbook and his identity, so he could pursue his dream of being a wizard, despite the extreme risk of impersonating a noble.

Bard with a bit of wizard for flavor can actually be a pretty strong combo. Low level wizard spells offer a decent amount of defensive utility and a decent low level spell selection, which bards can struggle with. And bards are just a great class period, especially if you go college of Lore and lean into the "I'm basically a wizard without the spellbook" aspect of the class.

[Leon]

Do what you you want to do because you like the choices not because its "best" or some other thing.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

Again, I’m aware it’s a bad combination because it’s MAD, I’m doing it anyway, I just want to know what other decisions I can make that will minimize the poor combo.

Character concept is that he didn’t qualify to become a wizard because the campaign setting only lets people from certain families become wizards, so he became a bard instead. He eventually stole a wizard’s spell book and his identity, so he could pursue his dream of being a wizard, despite the extreme risk of impersonating a noble.

Okay so if your character stole a wizards spell book, you could maybe pick up the ritual caster feat instead of dipping wizard. This would get you some wizard spells and reflect the lack of proper wizard training that your character can't get because of the setting. Because stealing a spell book has a decent sized consequence to it (having people looking for the missing book), you might even talk the DM into letting you take the feat for free

[CTurbo]

If I were going to play this, I'd take a single Wizard level and go Lore Bard from there and use Magical Secrets to pick up higher level Wiz spells.
You could start 8 Str, 14 Dex, 13+1 Con, 13+1 Int, 11 Wis, and 14+2 Cha as a Half-Elf

Straight Bard with Ritual Caster(Wiz) and Magic Initiate(more Wiz stuff) could work too.


But you mentioned wanting to be mostly Wizard so...

I'd start Valor Bard 3 and switch to Wiz from there. 8 Str, 14 Dex, 13+1 Con, 15+1 Int, 10 Wis, and 12+2 Cha
Valor Bards 3 gets you Expertise, Jack of All Trades, and medium armor+shield.

Not sure what Wiz subclass I'd take for this. Abjurer is my fav, but Enchanter may fit better with some Bard. Swords Bard/Bladesinger could be fun though.

[Chad.e.clark]

What about going Bard 3 for Eloquence Bard for Unsettling Words and going straight wizard after that? If you have any chance of grabbing the Headband of Intellect, you can focus on boosting Cha for more uses of Unsettling Words to make some Save-or-Suck spells easier to stick while still having a decent Int for a Wizard. You would still eventually get 9th level spells, and you would have an exceptional spell to upcast from Aid being added to the Bard list since until late game you'd always have higher spell slots than spell levels available.

[RogueJK]

Character concept is that he didn’t qualify to become a wizard because the campaign setting only lets people from certain families become wizards, so he became a bard instead. He eventually stole a wizard’s spellbook and his identity, so he could pursue his dream of being a wizard, despite the extreme risk of impersonating a noble.

So he's a Bard pretending to be a Wizard... That character concept doesn't require taking any actual Wizard levels.

Go with High Half-Elf variant to grab a bonus racial Wizard cantrip. Go straight Lore Bard, with no Wizard levels. Take Expertise in the Arcana and Deception skills, to represent your knowledge and experience gleaned from closely studying magic and passing yourself off as a Wizard over a long period. Pick up the Ritual Caster Wizard feat at Bard 4 to get a spellbook and access to all Wizard rituals, which represents the spellbook you stole. Then use your Magical Secrets at 6/10/14/18 to pick up select iconic Wizard spells that aren't Rituals and that aren't already on the Bard spell list (like Fireball, Counterspell, Contingency, Simulacrum, Wish, etc.).

Then just pretend to cast all your Bard spells in the most Wizardly manner possible. :smallwink:

This is a flavorful and effective "Wizardly Bard" build that fits the character concept well, and which won't be hamstrung by watering itself down with multiclassing.




If you're dead-set on representing this character as starting out as a Bard and then multiclassing and progressing as a Wizard, the least bad option would be to take 1-3 Bard levels before switching to Wizard. This gets you some Bardic abilities and flavor while limiting the drag on your Wizard levels.

Bard 1/Wizard X gets you light armor proficiency, an additional skill proficiency, and some musical instruments, plus a handful of Bard cantrips and Level 1 spells, and CHAMOD Bardic Inspiration dice per long rest.

Bard 2/Wizard X gets you Jack of all Trades, for half proficiency on all skills and other ability checks (including stuff like Initiative and Counterspell/Dispel Magic).

Bard 3/Wizard X gets you Expertise in two skills, plus entry-level subclass abilities. Most of these are based on Bardic Inspiration dice, of which you won't have many per day, but there are a few that are independent of BI. Good options would be Eloquence to boost your Face skills, Lore for extra skill proficiency, or Valor for medium armor, shield, and weaponry (if you want to be a more gishy Wizard).


Past that, further investment in Bard levels doesn't get you anything worth putting yourself even further behind as a Wizard.

[Kvess]

If you are playing 5e for the very first time, I recommend listening to the advice that you are getting. The problem with multiclassing bard and wizard is not that it is suboptimal — the problem is you do not really get anything out of this multiclass. You’ll be stuck with low level spells and stats that will make you weaker, less effective and more vulnerable than other characters, and you might not have a good time.

In 5e, the solution to 3.5e’s multiclassing was supposed to be subclasses. Subclasses give you flavour and abilities outside of your core class. If you want to play a wizardy bard or a bardy wizard, I would suggest looking at an Enchanter/Illusionist Wizard who plays an instrument or a Lore Bard with the magic initiate feat.

But it’s your character and you can do what you want.

[adolann]

Again, IÂ’m aware itÂ’s a bad combination because itÂ’s MAD, IÂ’m doing it anyway, I just want to know what other decisions I can make that will minimize the poor combo.

Character concept is that he didnÂ’t qualify to become a wizard because the campaign setting only lets people from certain families become wizards, so he became a bard instead. He eventually stole a wizardÂ’s spellbook and his identity, so he could pursue his dream of being a wizard, despite the extreme risk of impersonating a noble.

Since it sounds like you mostly want to be a Wizard, let me throw out a somewhat radical idea.

Don't bother with Bard at all.

Ask your DM if you can swap out the disguise kit proficiency on the Charlatan background for a musical instrument. Then take that background, take Performance and Persuasion as your Half-elf skills, and just be an Enchantment Wizard.

If you absolutely want to have an actual level in Bard, don't take more than 1 level.

[RogueJK]

Ask your DM if you can swap out the disguise kit proficiency on the Charlatan background for a musical instrument. Then take that background, take Performance and Persuasion as your Half-elf skills, and just be an Enchantment Wizard.

Customizing backgrounds is already allowed RAW, from the PHB. You shouldn't need to ask your DM for a special allowance.


"Customizing a Background
You might want to tweak some of the features of a background so it better fits your character or the campaign setting. To customize a background, you can replace one feature with any other one, choose any two skills, and choose a total of two tool proficiencies or languages from the sample backgrounds."


Basically, you can make your own background by just following a few guidelines: First, pick proficiency with two skills plus two tools, or two skills plus two languages, or two skills plus one tool and one language. (Tools can include musical instruments.) Then, take your pick of any Feature, Suggested Characteristics, and Equipment from any background.

[animorte]

If you're dead-set on representing this character as starting out as a Bard and then multiclassing and progressing as a Wizard, the least bad option would be to take 1-3 Bard levels before switching to Wizard. This gets you some Bardic abilities and flavor while limiting the drag on your Wizard levels.


I agree with this but I don’t even think it’s bad. Your spell progression is a bit behind, but you’ve still got access to more skills and lower level versatility spells (scaling based on your level of creativity).

I agree with this though, just 1-3 levels depending on if you want the subclass feature or not, then straight Wizard. The only reason for not multiclassing is if getting to higher level spells and features is top priority for you. It is for a lot of people, I’m not usually one of them.

[CTurbo]

So he's a Bard pretending to be a Wizard... That character concept doesn't require taking any actual Wizard levels.

Go with High Half-Elf variant to grab a bonus racial Wizard cantrip. Go straight Lore Bard, with no Wizard levels. Take Expertise in the Arcana and Deception skills, to represent your knowledge and experience gleaned from closely studying magic and passing yourself off as a Wizard over a long period. Pick up the Ritual Caster Wizard feat at Bard 4 to get a spellbook and access to all Wizard rituals, which represents the spellbook you stole. Then use your Magical Secrets at 6/10/14/18 to pick up select iconic Wizard spells that aren't Rituals and that aren't already on the Bard spell list (like Fireball, Counterspell, Contingency, Simulacrum, Wish, etc.).

Then just pretend to cast all your Bard spells in the most Wizardly manner possible. :smallwink:

This is a flavorful and effective "Wizardly Bard" build that fits the character concept well, and which won't be hamstrung by watering itself down with multiclassing.



I highly agree with this and love the flavor of a Bard pretending to be a Wizard.

Bards, particularly Lore Bards, are easily versatile enough to pull this off.

Between Ritual Caster(Wiz), Magical Secrets, possibly Magic Initiate(Wiz), and Expertise, this would make a great faux Wizard.

If you want to lean even harder into the fake Wizard with no actual Wizard levels, Bard with 3 levels of Tome Pact Warlock would net you at will Mage Armor and Disguise Self, 5 cantrips, 3 more regular spells known, Two 2 level spell slots, and access to every ritual in the game. Not sure which Patron fits best for this, but they all offer 4 additional spells.

[animorte]

If you want to lean even harder into the fake Wizard with no actual Wizard levels, Bard with 3 levels of Tome Pact Warlock would net you at will Mage Armor and Disguise Self, 5 cantrips, 3 more regular spells known, Two 2 level spell slots, and access to every ritual in the game. Not sure which Patron fits best for this, but they all offer 4 additional spells.

I fully support this. Celestial gives 2 additional cantrips at level 1. The only problem is that OP seems very invested in immersion and finding a patron to apply this effectively could be a challenge.

[Thrudd]

Again, I’m aware it’s a bad combination because it’s MAD, I’m doing it anyway, I just want to know what other decisions I can make that will minimize the poor combo.

Character concept is that he didn’t qualify to become a wizard because the campaign setting only lets people from certain families become wizards, so he became a bard instead. He eventually stole a wizard’s spellbook and his identity, so he could pursue his dream of being a wizard, despite the extreme risk of impersonating a noble.

You sure you want to multiclass at all? You could put the identity theft part in his background, before he gained levels at all, and just be a wizard in your class levels. As someone else said, you could just pick musical instrument and performance as background proficiencies, saying he was at the very beginning of bard training- unless you really want some of the bard class abilities. If you want the character to have been trained as a wizard at the start, you could only be a maximum of level 2 Bard, right?

If you go all the way to level 3 bard before starting wizard, or dip back into it, you'll at least get expertise and another use of bardic inspiration from a subclass.
If you are using Tasha's, the Unsettling Words feature of the College of Eloquence might be nice for a focus on spellcasting- subtract an inspiration die from a target's next saving throw, that they have to make before your next turn. I'd think you would usually be planning to use your action that same turn to cast a spell that forces the save on them. Eloquence would also mitigate not having a super high charisma somewhat, if you plan on using persuasion and deception a lot -you can't roll lower than 10 on those checks.

School of Enchantment makes a lot of sense for someone trained as a bard- also, Hypnotic Gaze pairs nicely with Unsettling Words, to help ensure you incapacitate that creature if you or a buddy really need to get away or stop it from acting.

If you dipped back into bard later, and went up to 6 to get the next College feature, allies can keep the bardic inspiration dice if their roll fails, and you can make some creatures (CHA bonus number of creatures) magically understand your language, which will help with Command and Suggestion. you'd also get your inspiration dice up to d8s, and replenish inspirations on short rests. Depends how high a level you think this campaign is likely to go, doing that would top you out at 7th level wizard spells and you'd lose the last ASI, but you would get the final School feature. Probably dipping as little as possible is best- going up to 17 wizard will get you 9th level spells. If this is a typical campaign that's going to last maybe level 10-12, think about how many and what spells you want access to.

If you're going to multi and not just use a bard-themed background, it makes the most sense to have started with bard. Narratively, of course, but also you can get some better weapons, and get any three skills you want- though you probably want at least one off the wizard list anyway.