Why do Artificers have V components?

[Slipjig]

This came up in another thread, and I thought I'd split it into it's own topic.

Does it make any sense that almost all Artificer spells have V components? None of the descriptions of them (steampunk, alchemy, painting magic kanji) seem like "magic words" are appropriate.

I'd be tempted to fluff it as the process just being inherently noisy, but then it wouldn't explain why magical silence shuts them down like any other caster.

Has this come up at your tables? How have you explained it in-game?

[TyGuy]

This came up in another thread, and I thought I'd split it into it's own topic.

Does it make any sense that almost all Artificer spells have V components? None of the descriptions of them (steampunk, alchemy, painting magic kanji) seem like "magic words" are appropriate.

I'd be tempted to fluff it as the process just being inherently noisy, but then it wouldn't explain why magical silence shuts them down like any other caster.

Has this come up at your tables? How have you explained it in-game?
Artificer is a total hack job. They tried to use spellcasting instead of creating a new system that would likely be too large and cumbersome for one class.
V component doesn't make any sense for the "inventions and implements" theme. But then again, neither does using the exact same magic effect as the wizard standing next to you.

[Skrum]

B/c artificers were lazily made. I didn't realize it till I made one, but I quickly realized their spells are nonsense and don't fit the suggested theme *at all.*

[Xihirli]

"Flamethrowers, activate!"
"Commence operation: Stealth Mode!"

[Kane0]

I work in IT and I speak at/about inanimate objects all the time. Certainly makes sense to me the Artificer would be pleading or demanding a gadget to work as intended.

[Psyren]

1) Game balance.

2) Inventors/scientists is only one possible theme of artificers. This guy (https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/a8/c9/cea8c92a88db0cafdb7c4696a469a916.jpg) is doable as an artificer. So is this guy. (https://i.imgur.com/qM3aC2p.jpg) So is this girl. (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHkQDIPjHtJ2liggY98c2-bg9EYjmQD5NFFQ&usqp=CAU) And this girl. (http://d20pfsrd.opengamingnetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2017/01/selka_dolokra_comm_by_yamaorce-d894uya-320-2.png) The important thing is that your magic is coming out of your use of a tool.

3) Even if you're going with the machine theme - your stuff is voice-activated, simple.

[Phhase]

Artificer is a total hack job. They tried to use spellcasting instead of creating a new system that would likely be too large and cumbersome for one class.
V component doesn't make any sense for the "inventions and implements" theme. But then again, neither does using the exact same magic effect as the wizard standing next to you.

Agreed, they're averse to creating and refining new subsystems. Just look at poor mystic and all that good stuff they threw out. Flavor is all fine and stuf, but...sometimes I don't wanna have to rely on infusions and generous DM rulings on crafting to like, make stuff, yknow?

[windgate]

The verbal components are the artificer muttering profanities at his device for failing to work as designed.

[chainer1216]

Agreed, they're averse to creating and refining new subsystems. Just look at poor mystic and all that good stuff they threw out. Flavor is all fine and stuf, but...sometimes I don't wanna have to rely on infusions and generous DM rulings on crafting to like, make stuff, yknow?

And they are averse to making them because whenever they try the half of the community that loves the champion fighter and thinks all things should be that simple loose their minds and flood forums and other social media places with negative feedback.

[stoutstien]

Personally I removed the V component from their casting and made them prepare spells in slot before hand vincian style. Also use spell points to give more flexible and flavor slapping together stuff.

[Leon]

have to offer up the proper blessing to the Machine

[Slipjig]

The important thing is that your magic is coming out of your use of a tool.
I don't watch enough anime to know who any of those characters are, but by that logic doesn't any character who uses spells with M components work as an artificer, including the standard wand/orb/component pouch?


The verbal components are the artificer muttering profanities at his device for failing to work as designed.

I thought about that (or just consistently running his mouth in a fight explaining what he's doing), but that still wouldn't explain why Silence shuts down most of his casting (ironically, one of the few exceptions is Booming Blade).

[Ionathus]

It's quite simple.

Every artificer spell ever cast, per the lore, is preceded by "Go, go, gadget ________!"

[Sigreid]

Can you really be a proper artificer without the manical laughter as your creations come to life?

More seriously, it's to give another way to shut down their ability to cast.

[warty goblin]

I thought about that (or just consistently running his mouth in a fight explaining what he's doing), but that still wouldn't explain why Silence shuts down most of his casting (ironically, one of the few exceptions is Booming Blade).

Look, if you can't threaten to put some major dents in your creations with a 3 pound lump hammer, there's just no way its gonna work. Threats of physical violence are a key part of the creative process.

[Psyren]

I don't watch enough anime to know who any of those characters are, but by that logic doesn't any character who uses spells with M components work as an artificer, including the standard wand/orb/component pouch?

Bold aren't tools. Tools are a specific category of item in 5e, found on PHB pg. 154/XGtE pg. 78.

But several of the tools listed are things that magic-users in other media typically employ - things like inking characters onto cards or charms (the first guy, Abeno Seimei), carving runes into metal or stone (the second guy, the Runecarver from WoW), weaving magic from thread or string (the first girl, Vanessa from Black Clover), or throwing bottles of magical liquid (the second girl, an OC alchemist.) 5e has tools for all of these methods, therefore these characters can all be artificers.

[Damon_Tor]

Tons of magic items have activation phrases.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I'm now imagining a surly old artificer who's half-broken machines don't work without a good whack from a wrench and a litany of cussing.

[Slipjig]

But several of the tools listed are things that magic-users in other media typically employ - things like inking characters onto cards or charms (the first guy, Abeno Seimei), carving runes into metal or stone (the second guy, the Runecarver from WoW), weaving magic from thread or string (the first girl, Vanessa from Black Clover), or throwing bottles of magical liquid (the second girl, an OC alchemist.)

Not familiar with any of them. But other than the fellow with a fistful of glowing cards, I doubt any of them yell "Abracadabra!" when casting.

[NaughtyTiger]

Personally I removed the V component from their casting and made them prepare spells in slot before hand vincian style. Also use spell points to give more flexible and flavor slapping together stuff.

Have any of your players balked about the additional restriction on casting?

[Psyren]

Not familiar with any of them. But other than the fellow with a fistful of glowing cards, I doubt any of them yell "Abracadabra!" when casting.

1) They do in D&D.
2) ...Have you watched, uh, literally any anime? :smalltongue:

[stoutstien]

Have any of your players balked about the additional restriction on casting?

Not yet. Most value the lack of V and S components(can't be counterspelled and built in stealth support) and the spell points as fair trade. For subclasses that have extra value from those 1st lv slots it's a significant boon. Oh the subclass spells are also "always" prepared so they can burn others to fuel them. Same for anything that cost slots but isn't a spell. Cannons and such.

[LibraryOgre]

The verbal components are the artificer muttering profanities at his device for failing to work as designed.

I know my printer won't work without precisely worded threats and copious profanity.

[sithlordnergal]

This came up in another thread, and I thought I'd split it into it's own topic.

Does it make any sense that almost all Artificer spells have V components? None of the descriptions of them (steampunk, alchemy, painting magic kanji) seem like "magic words" are appropriate.

I'd be tempted to fluff it as the process just being inherently noisy, but then it wouldn't explain why magical silence shuts them down like any other caster.

Has this come up at your tables? How have you explained it in-game?

1) It hasn't come up in game because-

2) I and my players see no reason to explain it in-game. I'm not fully understanding where your issue is...

3) About half or more spells require a Verbal Component, its why Silence is basically the go-to discount Anti-Magic Field. Magic and spells require words of power in order to use it, so it makes perfect sense that an Artificer would need to use magic words. In order to avoid that, WotC would have needed to make an entirely new system for Artificers to use.

That said, if its really messing with your verisimilitude, just think of the words as something any old programmer or engineer would be muttering as they work.

[Tanarii]

Yeah part of the problem is the way they built the classes, there's not a clear line between incanter, ritualist, and magi-tech artificer.

Wizard/Sorcerer/Warlock), and indeed all normal spellcasting, already covers things like person that casts spells by word & gesture (incanter) and by manipulating components (ritualist). The latter includes things like inscribing & carving & powerders & herbs and whatever else is covered by M components, in advance or on the fly.

Whereas the artificer includes all that plus a touch of magi-tech artificer with infusions. And in some case, with "refluffing" a spell. But the latter is where things get wonky, because even after "refluffing" they still include incanting and ritualism.

[Phhase]

And they are averse to making them because whenever they try the half of the community that loves the champion fighter and thinks all things should be that simple loose their minds and flood forums and other social media places with negative feedback.

Reductionism. Bleh. We can have both, guyyyys.

[darkdragoon]

Blathering blatherskite?

[LibraryOgre]

Related questions for me:

"Why don't artificiers require a metric ton of crap with which to make all of their devices" and "Where do alchemists get all the glass bottles they seem to carry everywhere?"

[stoutstien]

Related questions for me:

"Why don't artificiers require a metric ton of crap with which to make all of their devices" and "Where do alchemists get all the glass bottles they seem to carry everywhere?"
Same place rangers get 10,000 arrows and wizards aquire component pouches that never runs dry.

[Psyren]

At the risk of repeating myself - if wires and portable chemistry sets bother you, there are other tools.

Calligrapher's Supplies are literally three things - ink, quills, and parchment.
Weaver's Tools are literally three things - needles, thread, and scraps of cloth.

Using either of these, you can cast every single artificer's spell and infusion in the game, and they fit with the most rustic/medieval settings perfectly.

[Pex]

So they can slap their flavor text gadget producing the spell effect and say "work, dammit" or some such.

[Telwar]

I work in IT and I speak at/about inanimate objects all the time. Certainly makes sense to me the Artificer would be pleading or demanding a gadget to work as intended.


"Work you stupid piece of crap or so help me!"

[Leon]

This came up in another thread, and I thought I'd split it into it's own topic.

Does it make any sense that almost all Artificer spells have V components? None of the descriptions of them (steampunk, alchemy, painting magic kanji) seem like "magic words" are appropriate.
I'd be tempted to fluff it as the process just being inherently noisy, but then it wouldn't explain why magical silence shuts them down like any other caster.
Has this come up at your tables? How have you explained it in-game?

Makes plenty of sense, its incanted magic similar to what other spellcasters do (Outside of Sorcerers with select Metamagic) but with some added flourishes that being a Artificer adds. Its not come up in the game Im playing one as because its just an accepted part of the spellcasting mechcanic and has no need to be explained (My Artificer is a Ironman Themed Armourer and it works fine with "magic words", She's an ordained priest of her religion so spellcasts are done as prayers to her god and when I MC into wizard the spellbook will also be a prayerbook)

[Greywander]

This came up in another thread, and I thought I'd split it into it's own topic.

Does it make any sense that almost all Artificer spells have V components? None of the descriptions of them (steampunk, alchemy, painting magic kanji) seem like "magic words" are appropriate.

I'd be tempted to fluff it as the process just being inherently noisy, but then it wouldn't explain why magical silence shuts them down like any other caster.

Has this come up at your tables? How have you explained it in-game?

Artificer is a total hack job. They tried to use spellcasting instead of creating a new system that would likely be too large and cumbersome for one class.
V component doesn't make any sense for the "inventions and implements" theme. But then again, neither does using the exact same magic effect as the wizard standing next to you.
Pretty much this. Artificers don't feel like magic item users, they feel like regular spellcasters that are meant to be fluffed as magic item users. But then they also gave the requirement that the artificer be holding a tool in order to cast their spells, so you can't even play them like a normal caster.

A while back, I took a crack at reworking the artificer to lean more heavily into magic item usage. I completely removed spellcasting and replaced it with an expanded spell-storing item system. I only got a chance to playtest it a little bit at the early levels, but the concept seems solid. Basically, you put spells into items, and those items have a limited amount of charge. You can then share those items with party members or use them yourself. It does such a better job of fulfilling the concept of gadget-based casting through the mechanics, and meshes wonderfully with the artificer as a support class.

Link for those interested in checking it out. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612360-Revised-Artificer-Spell-Storing-Item-replaces-Spellcasting)

I honestly don't know why they didn't try doing something like this from the beginning. It already feels like we have too many spellcasters operating off of the same mechanics. The warlock is the only one that even tries to be different. TBH, I think every caster class should have different mechanics for spellcasting, and if they don't, then they need to be merged together into a single class.

[Phhase]

Pretty much this. Artificers don't feel like magic item users, they feel like regular spellcasters that are meant to be fluffed as magic item users. But then they also gave the requirement that the artificer be holding a tool in order to cast their spells, so you can't even play them like a normal caster.

A while back, I took a crack at reworking the artificer to lean more heavily into magic item usage. I completely removed spellcasting and replaced it with an expanded spell-storing item system. I only got a chance to playtest it a little bit at the early levels, but the concept seems solid. Basically, you put spells into items, and those items have a limited amount of charge. You can then share those items with party members or use them yourself. It does such a better job of fulfilling the concept of gadget-based casting through the mechanics, and meshes wonderfully with the artificer as a support class.

Link for those interested in checking it out. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612360-Revised-Artificer-Spell-Storing-Item-replaces-Spellcasting)

I honestly don't know why they didn't try doing something like this from the beginning. It already feels like we have too many spellcasters operating off of the same mechanics. The warlock is the only one that even tries to be different. TBH, I think every caster class should have different mechanics for spellcasting, and if they don't, then they need to be merged together into a single class.

Dunno about merging things, but I'm absolutely gonna check this out, it sounds great.

[Witty Username]

Artificer isn't the only one to have weirdness on the spellcasting of all classes being the same. I would argue the most weird one is sorcerer. I have innate magic flowing through my veins, but still need that guano for my fireballs.

I think these would be my big recommends on this line, if an issue is had.
Artificer not having verbal components.
Sorcerer not needing material components.
Bard not needing somatic components.

[Rad]

Artificers are not mundane inventors: they are spellcasters and do use magic as a component of their creations, which are often limited in a way that magic is and technology isn't. One of such limitations is that magic often has verbal components.

It would be neat to have a class dedicated to non-magical technology, but artificer is not it.

[AdAstra]

I've got a couple explanations:
-While artificer magic can take the form of gadgets, those gadgets are still effectively "doing magic", if perhaps a different form than usual. A spell with verbal components just means your magical device produces sound in order to produce its effect. Effectively, an artificer's gadget is an artificial, extremely limited spellcaster, casts a spell the same way that a living caster would (or at least could, theoretically), and thus requires the components that a caster would, too. Your healing spell is a literal healbot, a tiny mechanical cleric, one that uses your own reserves of power, if you need to justify how spell slots work, too.


-Sound is just a necessary part of many artificer devices. In the real world there were TV remotes that used sound in order to control the TV (the Zenith Space Commander). While this is pretty unusual for real world technology, where we basically always use mechanical linkages, electrical connections, chemical energy, EM waves, etc, with sound being an end product or input at most, it's not unreasonable that vibrations might be needed for artificer technology in the same way that a car needs rotation to really function. Your fantasy taser doesn't work without sound any more than a real world taser could work without electricity, or the chemical energy in its battery, or the gas pressure of the CO2 cartridge used to fire the barbs.

[Psyren]

Artificers are not mundane inventors: they are spellcasters and do use magic as a component of their creations, which are often limited in a way that magic is and technology isn't. One of such limitations is that magic often has verbal components.

It would be neat to have a class dedicated to non-magical technology, but artificer is not it.

Or even just non-spell magical technology. Like a trapper, or way to bolt infusions onto a different chassis.

[Tanarii]

Artificers are not mundane inventors: But they are supposed to be primarily magi-tech artificers/engineers. Not spell casters with just a touch of magi-tech.

[Ionathus]

Your healing spell is a literal healbot, a tiny mechanical cleric, one that uses your own reserves of power, if you need to justify how spell slots work, too.

Speak for yourself - my artificer is a 50s aircraft mechanic and veteran, and his Cure Wounds is a syringe of "something they used to give us when we pulled overnights fixing up the P-51Ds." He's not telling what the secret ingredient is, but boy howdy does it get you up and kickin' again :smallwink:

To the broader point: yeah, Artificer is all over the board. I don't know a lot of D&D settings, but it definitely makes more sense in some than others. I know some people have a mental image of D&D as much more Tolkienesqe, with additional races & classes as long as they fit within that general style, and things like Monk and Artificer and Gnome and Giff don't mesh too well. That's fine by me if you've got a clear image of the kind of world you want to build. But baseline D&D is a fantasy kitchen sink, always has been really, and what I love about it is that I don't really have to work too hard to justify an Artificer who's some sort of Magitek gnome tinkerer running around alongside an Artificer who's just literally some kid with a bag of mundane gadgets and tools she happens to have handy.

[TyGuy]

Artificers are not mundane inventors: they are spellcasters and do use magic as a component of their creations, which are often limited in a way that magic is and technology isn't. One of such limitations is that magic often has verbal components.

It would be neat to have a class dedicated to non-magical technology, but artificer is not it.

I'm not sure I've seen people argue that they want the artificer archetype to be a mundane inventor. Pretty sure it's the implementation of magical inventions/implements that bothers people. Taking the short-cut of "just reflavor spells" has too many squares to circle for some of us.

Take faerie fire. Let's ignore the fact that my artificer is creating an implement that 100% replicates a spell my druid ally casts. Because all my reflavored spells are still mechanically the same as the spells the casters have. That's an issue of unoriginality.
The narrative awkwardness comes with the component & casting rules. Aside from something like a laser beam headband, one would expect "somatic" for most implements to throw or activate them. Same can be said about the "material" aspect of an implement. And while people in this thread have come up with creative ways to justify "verbal" requirements, it's still the most awkward component of an "implement".
So back to faerie fire. A clear candidate for some sort of luminescent glitter grenade. But do I need to throw (somatic) the "glitter grenade"? Do I even need to possess a physical (material) glitter grenade or a launcher? No, I can activate it with my hands tied behind my back... but not if I'm gagged. I need to say something special, and that's all, to use my glitter grenade.
Edit: Oh and I forgot. I have to CONCENTRATE on this glitter grenade because its effect ends if I lose mental focus on it...
That'll be a big eye roll from me.

[Sindal]

I always just assumed artiicers were spell casters who access the weave via crafting methods. I checked and the class summary specifies they're casting arcane spells. Th

They're still casting spells.
It's just expressed and channeled through these knitting needles to oss a fireball in the form of an angry ugly sweater. Magic is the only way that works. Becuaer remember: ANY crafting tool can be their focus.

These cobler tools? Yep
That salt and pepper shaker and frying pan? You bet
These mapping pencils and drawing compass? Heck yeah we gonna map out a spider lair to cast spider climb


If it wasn't magic, it would just be the crafting system. Magic is what makes it get around the 'actually crafting I'd time consuming' part.

[KorvinStarmast]

Personally I removed the V component from their casting and made them prepare spells in slot before hand Vancian style. Also use spell points to give more flexible and flavor slapping together stuff. Interesting hack, and I like your use of the charged capacitor model for each spell.

More seriously, it's to give another way to shut down their ability to cast. This. They don't get to be the special ones who evade the basic rules of spell casting in chapter 10.

2) I and my players see no reason to explain it in-game. I'm not fully understanding where your issue is...

3) About half or more spells require a Verbal Component, its why Silence is basically the go-to discount Anti-Magic Field. Magic and spells require words of power in order to use it, so it makes perfect sense that an Artificer would need to use magic words. In order to avoid that, WotC would have needed to make an entirely new system for Artificers to use. Or, "that's how magic works, see chapter 10" :smallcool:

Artificers are not mundane inventors: they are spellcasters and do use magic as a component of their creations, which are often limited in a way that magic is and technology isn't. One of such limitations is that magic often has verbal components. That's a good way to explain it.

It would be neat to have a class dedicated to non-magical technology, but artificer is not it. That's for a different game; in D&D, magic works.

They're still casting spells. Yes, and as you noted, arcane spells.

If it wasn't magic, it would just be the crafting system. Which 5e went light on and I am glad that it did so. The play's the thing.

[H_H_F_F]

3.5 artificer infusions mostly do not have V components, with a select few exceptions. Infusions are also their own system, even though their pretty close to spells. If you're trying to homebrew something, you could look at the original artificer for inspiration.

[Yakk]

See https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?634546-Gadgeteer-Artificer-variant for my attempt to make a "lore-accurate" artificer.

In effect, it turns Artificers into short-rest prepared "spellbook" spellcasters. You build gadgets and gizmos instead of casting spells through tools, and those devices require constant maintenance (which limits how many you have working at once).

It uses the same spell list as Artificers do (to minimize work), just jiggers mechanics to make it actual devices you are making.