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olelia
2007-11-29, 09:46 AM
Just curious but is there a list anywhere of what spells are affected/not affected by the Empower metamagic feat?

I know like Bulls strength, owls wisdom etc will give you +6 stats when you empower but could you in theory empower animal growth. Would the size bonus increase and the dr?

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-11-29, 10:55 AM
actually empower spell doesn't effect bulls strength etc.


Empower Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit

All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half.

Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spellís actual level.

I'm not 100% sure what animal growth does but I'm pretty sure it's unaffected.

Keld Denar
2007-11-29, 11:05 AM
There is a lot of debate about what constitutes as the "variable component" of the spell. I also don't think that there has been any definative rulings on this one way or another either. Many examples given from different sources contradict each other. The general populous conforms to one of 2 camps.

1 Empower only works on numbers rolled on dice. So a fireball would deal (10d6 x 1.5) at 10th level. A magic missile would do (5d4 x 1.5) +5 at 10th level average 23.75.

2 Empower works on all level dependant factors of a spell(EDIT: that aren't related to range, duration, or area since those are covered by Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, and Widen Spell respectively). So the fireball above would do the same damage, but the magic missile would do (5d4+5) x 1.5 average 26.25. Also, things like Heal would heal 15 hp per level instead of just 10, etc.

Ask your DM which camp he's in.

Also, Empower would not work on Bull Str or Bears Endurance like you mentioned. It also would not work on Animal Growth. Sorry.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-29, 11:49 AM
There is a lot of debate about what constitutes as the "variable component" of the spell. I also don't think that there has been any definative rulings on this one way or another either. Many examples given from different sources contradict each other. The general populous conforms to one of 2 camps.

1 Empower only works on numbers rolled on dice. So a fireball would deal (10d6 x 1.5) at 10th level. A magic missile would do (5d4 x 1.5) +5 at 10th level average 23.75.

2 Empower works on all level dependant factors of a spell(EDIT: that aren't related to range, duration, or area since those are covered by Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, and Widen Spell respectively). So the fireball above would do the same damage, but the magic missile would do (5d4+5) x 1.5 average 26.25. Also, things like Heal would heal 15 hp per level instead of just 10, etc.

Ask your DM which camp he's in.

Also, Empower would not work on Bull Str or Bears Endurance like you mentioned. It also would not work on Animal Growth. Sorry.

Magic Missile is specifically listed as option #2.
Each missile does (1d4 +1) x1.5.
Page 93 PHB.

Keld Denar
2007-11-29, 12:31 PM
Magic Missile is specifically listed as option #2.
Each missile does (1d4 +1) x1.5.
Page 93 PHB.

Thats one of the examples that is counter to camp 1. That is one of the primary reasons why there is such a split. Camp 1 believes that the "variable component" is the die which is what the rule text implies, while camp 2 believes that the "variable component" is the whole level dependant thing which is what the example implies. There are other sources of contradiction in other rule suppliments, but I don't have them off the top of my head. I'm sure you can see both sides, but you can only follow one.

I personally am in camp 2, but a lot of people I know are entrenched in camp 1.

Fenix_of_Doom
2007-11-29, 01:25 PM
I actually assumed that "camp 1" was right while reading the feat description, I hadn't given it much thought.
But I was wondering, do non-numeric variable effects exist?

Crow
2007-11-29, 01:28 PM
What about dispel checks? Prolly not, but rolling a d30 would be nice.

Chronos
2007-11-29, 01:33 PM
Neither of the two camps lussmanj mentions is correct, and I've never seen anyone argue for the second one. A variable numeric effect is an effect expressed as a number which includes a die roll. It's irrelevant whether the effect is level-dependant. So each empowered magic missile would do (1d4+1)*1.5 damage, a ninth-level empowered fireball would do (9d6)*1.5 damage, an empowered Summon Monster III would summon (1d4+1)*1.5 monsters from the first-level list, and a Heal can't be empowered at all, since it uses no dice.

Crow
2007-11-29, 01:53 PM
I always did it as a Magic Missile would do 1d6+1, rather than (1d4+1)*1.5

Idea Man
2007-11-29, 02:12 PM
While doing MM as d6 instead of d4*1.5 is simpler, it does deny the caster the assurance that the higher level slot he used will definitely cause more damage. No problem with that idea, but I have a hard enough time getting my wizards to use the feat in the first place.

Edit: I was just thinking, you could houserule the old 3.0 version of bull's strength back in to the game, if you wanted to play with empower (and maximize).

Chronos
2007-11-29, 02:41 PM
I always did it as a Magic Missile would do 1d6+1, rather than (1d4+1)*1.5So what would something with a d6 turn into, a d9?

Kaelik
2007-11-29, 03:00 PM
Neither of the two camps lussmanj mentions is correct, and I've never seen anyone argue for the second one. A variable numeric effect is an effect expressed as a number which includes a die roll. It's irrelevant whether the effect is level-dependant. So each empowered magic missile would do (1d4+1)*1.5 damage, a ninth-level empowered fireball would do (9d6)*1.5 damage, an empowered Summon Monster III would summon (1d4+1)*1.5 monsters from the first-level list, and a Heal can't be empowered at all, since it uses no dice.

Just to be clear, you just said that you've never heard anyone argue for the second one, then you argued for the second one. That's exactly what he just said. You just used a different caster level for fireball, and did the magic missile singly rather then the whole spell.

Except that he has a weird view about Heal.

Aquillion
2007-11-29, 03:06 PM
I actually assumed that "camp 1" was right while reading the feat description, I hadn't given it much thought.
But I was wondering, do non-numeric variable effects exist?
Reincarnate.

Which would be nonsensical, of course; that's why they banned it. Non-numeric variable effects generally chose from a list of options, so it makes no sense to empower them outside the range of those options.

...although I do like the idea of Reincarnating someone into [ARRAY INDEX OUT OF BOUNDS]. Would it crash the entire world with a memory protection error, or would they just become whatever creature happens to exist in the D&D metaphysical memory about 50% further than the resurrection table is supposed to go?

And technically, any spell with options in it is variable. You can get variable effects from a Wish, say. Does that mean maximizing it means you automatically get the absolute limit of what you possibly could?

Keld Denar
2007-11-29, 03:17 PM
So Chronos, how would you rule a Cure Serious Wounds, min CL (5)

Would you have it heal (3d8 x 1.5) +5 or (3d8 + 5) x1.5? Which part of the spell is the variable?

Oh, and while I recognize that (1d4+1) x1.5 x5 is different than (5d4+5) x1.5 in D&D due to each missile being rounded down. Unless a person is dividing their missiles up, its much less work to total the damage and multiply than to multiply 5 seperate times.

Chronos
2007-11-29, 03:19 PM
Just to be clear, you just said that you've never heard anyone argue for the second one, then you argued for the second one.I'm not quite clear what he was saying with Fireball. It sounded to me like he was saying that it wouldn't be affected, since a CL 15 fireball does the same damage as a CL 10 fireball. Either way, though, (10d6)*1.5 is not the same thing as 15d6 (the former is a flatter distribution than the latter).

EDIT: We crossposted, there.
So Chronos, how would you rule a Cure Serious Wounds, min CL (5)The variable numeric effect of CSW is the amount of hit points cured. So an empowered CSW, caster level 5 (I presume you're using a rod for the metamagic?) would heal (3d8+5)*1.5.

And yeah, you'd usually roll all five Magic Missiles together; I was just giving the value for each for the sake of clarity.

Kaelik
2007-11-29, 03:32 PM
I'm not quite clear what he was saying with Fireball. It sounded to me like he was saying that it wouldn't be affected, since a CL 15 fireball does the same damage as a CL 10 fireball. Either way, though, (10d6)*1.5 is not the same thing as 15d6 (the former is a flatter distribution than the latter).

He never said it was 15d6. He said it was 10d6 x1.5 at caster level ten (also at caster level 15 though he didn't explicitly state it.)

Keld Denar
2007-11-29, 03:40 PM
I'm not quite clear what he was saying with Fireball. It sounded to me like he was saying that it wouldn't be affected, since a CL 15 fireball does the same damage as a CL 10 fireball. Either way, though, (10d6)*1.5 is not the same thing as 15d6 (the former is a flatter distribution than the latter).

EDIT: We crossposted, there.The variable numeric effect of CSW is the amount of hit points cured. So an empowered CSW, caster level 5 (I presume you're using a rod for the metamagic?) would heal (3d8+5)*1.5.

And yeah, you'd usually roll all five Magic Missiles together; I was just giving the value for each for the sake of clarity.

Actually, I had the RSoP Empowered Healing ability in my head, although the minimum CL to use that ability would be 8, due to the fact that you usually get RSoP2 after Cleric6, although it would be 9 because of Healing Domains +1 CL) But that is not important.

You are in camp 2. I never said that 10d6x1.5 = 15d6. I know its not the same. For clarity's sake, I'll repeat.

Camp 1 Only dice, so MM is (1d4) x1.5 +1
Camp 2 All variable, so MM is (1d4+1) x1.5

Either could be correct, depending on how you interpret it. I personally am in camp 2. Ask your DM.

deadseashoals
2007-11-29, 06:02 PM
...although I do like the idea of Reincarnating someone into [ARRAY INDEX OUT OF BOUNDS]. Would it crash the entire world with a memory protection error, or would they just become whatever creature happens to exist in the D&D metaphysical memory about 50% further than the resurrection table is supposed to go?

Thread over, you win.

Chronos
2007-11-29, 06:11 PM
You are in camp 2. I never said that 10d6x1.5 = 15d6. I know its not the same. For clarity's sake, I'll repeat.

Camp 1 Only dice, so MM is (1d4) x1.5 +1
Camp 2 All variable, so MM is (1d4+1) x1.5So what was the level-dependent bit about?

Stephen_E
2007-11-29, 06:35 PM
And lets not forget the Maximised Empowered spell that people so often get wrong.

Many people think that a Maximised Empowered spell is the maximised result x1.5. i.e. Cure Light Maximised Empowered = (8+5(lev)) x1.5 = 19

Of course the correct answer is that a Maximised Empowered spell takes the maximum + 50% of the rolled result. i.e. Cure Light = (8+5) + (1d8+5)/2


Re: Lussman's "version 2" was confusing because he talked about level depndant varibales and Heal (which has no variables and as such is unaffected by empower) as getting a 50% increase.

Stephen

chionophile
2007-11-29, 07:09 PM
I'm not sure that (1d4+1)*1.5 should be right. That averages at 5.25. Maximize spell averages at 5.0. Which means you get more damage out of empower than maximize. Isn't maximize supposed to be better than empower?

Fhaolan
2007-11-29, 07:26 PM
...although I do like the idea of Reincarnating someone into [ARRAY INDEX OUT OF BOUNDS]. Would it crash the entire world with a memory protection error, or would they just become whatever creature happens to exist in the D&D metaphysical memory about 50% further than the resurrection table is supposed to go?


I second the vote for you to have won this thread. Well done.

Zeful
2007-11-29, 07:37 PM
As far as I understand, Empower Spell is very clear on what it does. So can someone explain where the people that believe that Empower gives +50% to all variable effects comes from, because what people are saying and the math their putting up isn't adding up.

Chronos
2007-11-29, 09:46 PM
I'm not sure that (1d4+1)*1.5 should be right. That averages at 5.25. Maximize spell averages at 5.0. Which means you get more damage out of empower than maximize. Isn't maximize supposed to be better than empower?For Magic Missile specifically, Empower does exactly as much, on average, as Maximize (due to the rounding rules). Even there, though, Maximize is still better, since consistency favors the players, and variation favors the monsters.

But for things which use larger dice, or which use only dice and not added constants, Maximize will generally be higher, on average. For instance, a max-level Fireball will average 35 damage. The same Fireball, empowered, will average 52.25 damage. Maximized, it'll do 60 damage. The effect is even more pronounced for spells which use a d8.

Feralgeist
2007-11-30, 02:57 AM
A little off topic, but is it possible to apply metamagic effects to items? for instance, Maximising a rod of wonder (flesh to stone! stone to flesh! turning lawn ornaments into corpses!)

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 07:21 AM
So what was the level-dependent bit about?

The level dependant part I was talking about was things like the +CL at the end of a cure spell. I know a lot of people who say that that part isn't multiplied, because it isn't a die roll. They say that only the d8 part gets multiplied.

As for heal, how is it that different from the other cures?

Cure Light Wounds is 1d8+CL*1

Heal is 0d8+CL*10

I fail to see why one should be empowered, but the other should not. Is it really that OP to cure a target for 15 points per level, instead of 10? Heal usually caps the targets hp anyway. And if you compare spell levels, Empowered Heal is an 8th level spell, the same level as Greater Restoration. It has less total effect than Greater Restoration, but doesn't have the xp cost. How is this really that big of a deal?

lord_khaine
2007-11-30, 07:32 AM
the case is its just not how the feat works, empower spell only affects spells with variables, and though you are welcome to lobby for a houserule in your own games, then i doubt its something most people could be bothered to change.

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 08:03 AM
the case is its just not how the feat works, empower spell only affects spells with variables, and though you are welcome to lobby for a houserule in your own games, then i doubt its something most people could be bothered to change.

Please explain your definition of variable. Because what most people have stated on this thread so far, is that it is a spell effect that varies with caster level, such as damage delt or healing done. It typically comes in the form of XdY+Z. For the Fireball spell, X is CL, Y is 6, and Z is 0. For a Cure Light Wounds spell, X is 1, Y is 8, and Z is CL. For Heal, X and Y are 0, and Z is CL*10. It fits the same format, as a variable effect. Do you have a definition of variable that is different from this?

Kaelik
2007-11-30, 12:30 PM
Please explain your definition of variable. Because what most people have stated on this thread so far, is that it is a spell effect that varies with caster level, such as damage delt or healing done. It typically comes in the form of XdY+Z. For the Fireball spell, X is CL, Y is 6, and Z is 0. For a Cure Light Wounds spell, X is 1, Y is 8, and Z is CL. For Heal, X and Y are 0, and Z is CL*10. It fits the same format, as a variable effect. Do you have a definition of variable that is different from this?

The definition of variable is something that changes. However, it has been explained officially that 10 is not a variable, nor is caster level. (yes caster level can be changed, but empower doesn't change it.)

Heal cures 10*CL HP. 10 is not a variable, caster level is not effected. Therefore Empowered Heal cures 10*CL. A good way to deal with Empower is that if you can't maximize anything, then you can't empower it either. There have to be dice to Empower.

Yuki Akuma
2007-11-30, 12:48 PM
Heal is not 0d8+CL*10. Heal is 10*CL. Stop twisting the wording to try to make your totally incorrect ruling look mildly plausible.

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 01:06 PM
Ok, so you'll multiply the +CL part of a cure wounds spell, which is dependant only on CL, but not Heal? I'm sorry, but you are contradicting yourselves.

Either Cure Light Wounds heals (1d8 *1.5) +CL and Heal is unaffected (previously mentioned Camp 1)

OR Cure Light Wounds heals (1d8 + CL) *1.5 and Heal heals 15/CL (Camp 2)

To claim that Cure Light Wounds heals (1d8 + CL) *1.5 and Heal is unaffected is a contradiction. Why would one spells net result be affected and anothers not, simply because one has a little die roll tacked on to it? Really think about it! Get past the whole 10 is not variable, because if that is true, than 1 is not variable either, and the +1*CL part of Cure spells should not be multiplied either. It can't be both ways.

Is anyone else seeing what I'm seeing?

lord_khaine
2007-11-30, 01:21 PM
apperently not.

the wording on how empower works isnt that complex, and there are even a example with magic missile, that shows all the damage, including fixed bonuses are empower when the spell contains a variable.

heal doesnt contain any variable, let the same cleric cast heal 10 times, and it will heal for the same value each time, so it cannot be empowered.

Chronos
2007-11-30, 03:20 PM
Ok, so you'll multiply the +CL part of a cure wounds spell, which is dependant only on CL, but not Heal? I'm sorry, but you are contradicting yourselves.The HP restored by a cure wounds spell is variable, since it includes a die roll. The HP restored by a Heal spell is not, since it does not include a die roll. So the HP restored by a cure wounds spell can be increased via Empower Spell, but the HP restored by Heal cannot be.

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 03:28 PM
The HP restored by a cure wounds spell is variable, since it includes a die roll. The HP restored by a Heal spell is not, since it does not include a die roll. So the HP restored by a cure wounds spell can be increased via Empower Spell, but the HP restored by Heal cannot be.

So your saying that if a new spell were created, one that healed 1d2 + 10*CL, that spell would be subject to Empower, but one that heals 10*CL wouldn't?

Is it really that hard of stretch to allow it? I don't think so. You ARE casting the equivilant of an 8th level spell. For an 8th level spell, you could be getting Greater Restoration, which heals ALL hp damage, even if the target had a million hp.

Chronos
2007-11-30, 03:53 PM
So your saying that if a new spell were created, one that healed 1d2 + 10*CL, that spell would be subject to Empower, but one that heals 10*CL wouldn't?That is correct.
Is it really that hard of stretch to allow it? I don't think so. You ARE casting the equivilant of an 8th level spell. For an 8th level spell, you could be getting Greater Restoration, which heals ALL hp damage, even if the target had a million hp.It's not a matter of balance, it's a matter of what the feat does. Empower Spell says it doesn't work on things without variable effects, therefore it doesn't. Speaking of which, Greater Restoration doesn't restore any HP at all.

Crow
2007-11-30, 04:57 PM
That is correct.It's not a matter of balance, it's a matter of what the feat does. Empower Spell says it doesn't work on things without variable effects, therefore it doesn't. Speaking of which, Greater Restoration doesn't restore any HP at all.

Would you consider Dispel Magic as a variable effect? I don't simply because the spell doesn't do anything really other than allow you a caster level check...which is somewhat seperate from the spell.

UserClone
2007-11-30, 09:23 PM
Dispel magic has no numeric effect, therefore, it is impossible to Empower or Maximize. It would be like trying to Empower a ghost sound, and sounds equally silly.
Edit: Remember: all variable, numeric effects. Honestly, it's not that complicated.

Zeful
2007-11-30, 10:25 PM
Ok, so you'll multiply the +CL part of a cure wounds spell, which is dependant only on CL, but not Heal? I'm sorry, but you are contradicting yourselves.

Either Cure Light Wounds heals (1d8 *1.5) +CL and Heal is unaffected (previously mentioned Camp 1)

OR Cure Light Wounds heals (1d8 + CL) *1.5 and Heal heals 15/CL (Camp 2)
<SNIP>

Except Empower doesn't do either I thougt. I read it to do for cure light wounds 1d8*1.5+(CL≤5) Magic missle is the same 1d4*1.5+1 for each missle. So empower does XdY(*1.5)+Z (where X is the number of dice, Y is the number of sides and Z is what you add)

deadseashoals
2007-12-01, 12:03 AM
So your saying that if a new spell were created, one that healed 1d2 + 10*CL, that spell would be subject to Empower, but one that heals 10*CL wouldn't?

Is it really that hard of stretch to allow it? I don't think so. You ARE casting the equivilant of an 8th level spell. For an 8th level spell, you could be getting Greater Restoration, which heals ALL hp damage, even if the target had a million hp.

You're being obstinate because it doesn't make sense to you. One of the reasons heal is fixed is because of Empower. That is a reason many of the spells are fixed. Thus, allowing Empower to work with nonvariable effects is not just wrong, but imbalanced.

I have no idea what you're talking about with greater restoration, either. Greater restoration is a 7th level cleric spell that costs 10 minutes to cast, and does not return any HP to the target.

Renx
2007-12-01, 05:46 AM
The feat specifically states that "Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you cast dispel magic) are not affected, nor are spells without random variables." (emphasis mine)

I don't see the problem here, Heal has a numeric variable, yes, but as long as you don't have a prestige class that makes all of your caster level checks random, say by +/-2, it's not affected because of the clause at the end of the feat. And as far as I know, no such class exists, so there. :smallwink:

//Edit1: Also, damage dealt/HP cured/sparrows created is "1.5 times the normal amount". Yes, this means that CLW is (1d8+CL)*1.5. Pretty sucky for a level 4 spell.