DM new to E6/E8 seeking advice on some house rules

[Jervis]

Hello everyone! I'm considering hosting a E6/E8 game soon and i was wanting to ask some questions about the system and how it might interact with some house rules.

Firstly i was wanting to ask general advice on the E6 vs E8 debate. I personally like level 8-10ish in dnd with that being the golden area for combat. I've heard that E6 plays like level 8 play but in there are a few aspects of the E8 cutoff that i like. Mostly it gives more wiggle room for loosing BaB and having a impactful full attack, it also allows 4th level spells. It also gives PrCs some breathing room.

I was considering letting players advance PrC class features (but not spells, bab, saves, etc) at the cost of a feat if they took levels of a prc before then. Is there any potentially problematic interactions from this that i should be aware of? Nothing massive jumps out at me outside of some already broken PrCs.

How does the system work with pathfinder's Automatic Bonus Progression? This is a rule i really like and it's part of the reason i was considering E8 over E6. With E6 you end up boosting a mental stat by 2 and getting cut off before you can get a bonus to a physical one. Level 8 is also a impactful break point for ABP. However this does bring up the question of how the two systems interact with certain magical weapons. A Shocking Longsword is a CL 8 items, meaning you can craft and afford it at this level without much trouble. However you don't get a +2 weapon bonus until level 9. So do you attune to the +1 shocking longsword only for it to loose the +1 quality? Should i make a feat that lets you advance ABP by 1 (probably stacking with itself up to level 10 max) or should i have bonuses scale with number of feats to a certain point? What are some other things i should keep in mind with how these two work together?

What are some good monsters you would recommend as end game enemies for a E6/8 game? This campaign would involve a lot of hunting supernatural creatures so ideally a fey or evil outsider would be nice. I need something with shapeshifting because i want the final monster to be a threat in their manipulation as well. I was considering a succubus or changling with maybe some class levels but i would like to hear some ideas if anyone wants to share them.

[Crake]

Okay, so I actually play a LOOTT of e6. Lets start off with the E6 vs E8 debate.

Now, with the e6 capstone feats, a lot of things that are normally inaccessable at level 6 become accessable, including 4th level spells of your choosing, often instead cast as rituals, so you still get to keep 4th level spells in the game, however they now become much more highly prized abilities, and ones that you can quite readily lock behind a quest of their own to discover, or give out as rp rewards (the local clergy teaches the party cleric how to cast restoration for example). Basically, you get to decide what the players have access to. It also makes choosing a full bab class a meaningful decision. If only full bab classes get a full attack, rather than just about everyone, then it gives martials an edge over others in their field. This can, however, be compensated for in the "lean upward" approach described in the allowing feats section in the e6 handbook. You could, for example, allow a character to gain +1 bab for every 5 combat feats they take after reaching level 6 (with maybe a maximum BAB bonus of +3 after 15 martial feats), or something like that, to allow characters to eventually "train into" becoming a martial. In any case, how you handle it is up to you.

If you go with e8 though, a lot of that low level feel begins to erode, 4th level spells also vastly change the landscape of a setting, scry and fry now becomes an option with scrying and dimension door, sure it's not super long range (though 720ft is still a good chunk of distance), but it is now a thing, and it lacks any consistent counter.

Personally, im a big proponent of sticking with e6, and allowing bits and pieces of the next couple of levels to be accessable through feats, entirely at your own discretion.

Now on to the homebrew/optional rules.

Automatic bonus progression works great, it allows you to completely cut out magic items if you use the no magic item variant (this gives you the +2 physical stat as well), while still giving players the basics they need. It also gives mundane equipment a chance to shine, a set of mithril full plate, a cyrite longsword, serrenwood arrows, fighting monsters now becomes about hunting down the right equipment for the job. You can also introduce all kinds of funky alchemical substances that might solve issues that normally require higher level spells, for example, I have a homebrew substance called weirdstone water, essentially finely crushed weirdstone powder mixed into water (weirdstones normally prevent teleportation in a few miles radius), when splashed onto an enemy, it stops them from being able to teleport away until they wash themselves off. Things like alchemical fire also become very useful for swarms, or plant creatures vulnerable to fire, and so on. I have a whole mundane e6 loot table here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1q1AQQET4o_Uy-U7eMP9nD0eFze5m-kGRk3kbmVvJoug/edit?usp=sharing), though it only covers weapons and armor, i never got around to doing equipment or consumables. You can also still throw in one or two magical items as well, and when they do come up, now instead they are a REALLY big deal.

As to how APB works, yes, its as you described, however keep in mind, ABP specifies that you CAN have a +0 shocking weapon (it obviously still keeps it's +1 to hit for being masterwork), and it IS still considered a magical weapon for overcoming damage reduction. Also keep in mind the caster level on items and abilities is NOT a requirement to craft, it is merely the "found in the wild" CL of an item. The only requirement to make a weapon into a shock weapon is Craft magic arms and armor, and either call lightning or lightning bolt, both of which you could achieve at level 6.

Other optional rules I would recommend:
- Class defense bonus, this allows players to not feel forced into wearing armor, allowing for more of a swashbuckling adventure and experience, and also makes up for the lack of magical armor in a rather significant way
- Armor as DR, this gives players a reason to actually wear armor again, though I personally allow the attunement bonus, and any other bonuses to an armor's AC (such as the heavy armor optimization feats) to count toward an armor's DR bonus.
- Wounds/Vitality, this allows players to heal up much more readily, without the need for magic, between combats, while making criticals much more impactful and meaningful.

As for good monsters in e6 games, generally NPCs make much better enemies in e6 than specific kinds of monsters, though a succubus is a great opponent too. Be wary though, as a succubus's abilities in an e6 world are rather devastating. If you want something with shapeshifting, keep in mind any character can get a changeling's minor shapechange with just 1 level in psion with the egoist ACF from mind's eye, which trades out the psion's first level feat, so you can make any NPC you want have the shapechanging ability with just that one level.

[King of Nowhere]

Hello everyone! I'm considering hosting a E6/E8 game soon and i was wanting to ask some questions about the system and how it might interact with some house rules.

I was considering letting players advance PrC class features (but not spells, bab, saves, etc) at the cost of a feat if they took levels of a prc before then. Is there any potentially problematic interactions from this that i should be aware of? Nothing massive jumps out at me outside of some already broken PrCs.


as a general rule of thumb, as you're houseruling at your table, if there is a specific ability that's potentially problematic, make an exception for it. my general advice on houserules is, always be willing to revise and improve them.

[Jervis]

-snip-

Thanks for the advice. I'm looking into some of those house rules right now. The game itself would be kind of a Death of Magic scenario set in a fantasy Not!Japan during the Not!Meiji Restoration; players would be part of a demon hunter/anti magic specialist group made up of spellcasters, ex-samurai, etc. hunting down all the supernatural monsters and magic using humans who're making trouble for the new government. A big focus for the themes of the game is that this group is largely made up of the sort of people the new magic restricting government is trying to reign in and that once their job is done they won't be able to keep doing this any more, but the reasons for doing it can be anything from hoping to make a place for yourself in the new government, to thinking that the safety and prosperity the new government is creating is worth the death of magic, just wanting to keep the proverbial orchestra playing while the ship is inevitably sinking, just wanting a good pay check, or whatever the players want. Thats part of why i thought E6 with low magic item presence is a good fit for this, I was hoping the lower ceiling for what a single person can do is something i thought jived with the concept. I'll probably go with the no magic item variant of ABP even though some magic items will show up, that way i can stick to E6 without making martials unnecessarily sad.

By the way is there any particular change to firearms you would recommend for the era? I play 4.5 more than pathfinder but i've heard that neither game has a fantastic system for having balanced fire arms. I would also love to hear any other advice you have for this game from what you've heard.


as a general rule of thumb, as you're houseruling at your table, if there is a specific ability that's potentially problematic, make an exception for it. my general advice on houserules is, always be willing to revise and improve them.

Yeah this game is probably gonna have a lot of rule patches so i should be upfront that the game might be a bit jank and need tweaking mid game. Thanks.

[Crake]

By the way is there any particular change to firearms you would recommend for the era? I play 4.5 more than pathfinder but i've heard that neither game has a fantastic system for having balanced fire arms. I would also love to hear any other advice you have for this game from what you've heard.

I’ve used pathfinder firearms as-is to pretty great effect in my e6 games, it works especially well with class defense, as they give better touch AC, so hitting touch AC doesn’t feel too strong. It also gets interesting with special material ammunition, making an alchemical gold bullet allows a 1d10 rifle to go up to 2d8, then if you allow the gravity bow spell to work on guns, it becomes 3d8, so you start getting into pretty decent damage territory.

Whether you want to use advanced or simple firearms is mostly for you to decide, historically, simple would be the correct one to go with, but they’re not particularly fun to use, I personally use advanced just because they feel more useful as weapons.

[Jervis]

I’ve used pathfinder firearms as-is to pretty great effect in my e6 games, it works especially well with class defense, as they give better touch AC, so hitting touch AC doesn’t feel too strong. It also gets interesting with special material ammunition, making an alchemical gold bullet allows a 1d10 rifle to go up to 2d8, then if you allow the gravity bow spell to work on guns, it becomes 3d8, so you start getting into pretty decent damage territory.

Whether you want to use advanced or simple firearms is mostly for you to decide, historically, simple would be the correct one to go with, but they’re not particularly fun to use, I personally use advanced just because they feel more useful as weapons.

Thanks. I’ll read into class based defense while I finish working out the d tails for this