The IFCC Master Plan: Speculation [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

PLD

2022-08-23, 04:55 AM

We all likely know these guys will return but what do they really want?

We know they want conflict.
We know they want to unite the Lower Planes Races.
We know that their plan does not involve releasing the Snarl or the Planet in the Rift (because V speculated both of those as motives).
We know that a victory for Hel was a victory for them.
We know that they like to have a guy on every team.
We know they have a special artifact.

We also know that Outsider's go nuts if memories of the previous worlds aren't wiped.

What if the IFCC avoided the mind wipe? They wish to destroy the world and then use the artifact to protect the Lower Planes from the wipe.

I also think the plan is bigger then that. They have a guy on every team. But they seem unable to get leverage on team evil.

But perhaps they do. We have never seen the Dark One. Not even Redcloak has spoken to him.

The Dark One is purple. So is Director Nero.

Perhaps the Dark One is an artificial construct of the IFCC and the whole plan is their doing?

Thoughts?

Fyraltari

2022-08-23, 04:59 AM

They have a guy on every team.
They don't though. They had Sabine on the Linear Guild, and V on the Order's if you count them. No-one on Team Evil, no one with any of the Scribblers, no-one with the Azurites, no-one on Team Hel. No-one anywhere else.

Perhaps the Dark One is an artificial construct of the IFCC and the whole plan is their doing?

They couldn't create a brand new divine quiddity and I seriously doubt they could fake one well enough to fool Thor, Loki, Tiamat and Rat.

Edit: With that said, the idea that the Dark One may have cut a deal with the IFCC/is working with them is intriguing, but I don't see what either party would get out of it.

PLD

2022-08-23, 05:25 AM

They couldn't create a brand new divine quiddity and I seriously doubt they could fake one well enough to fool Thor, Loki, Tiamat and Rat.

Edit: With that said, the idea that the Dark One may have cut a deal with the IFCC/is working with them is intriguing, but I don't see what either party would get out of it.

We know the IFCC collects souls. And that non-aligned Clerics like the Creed of Stone can do stuff without a Quiddity-producing God. Masterminds like the Fiends can easily create a god for a brief period.

The Dark One cutting a deal has obvious benefits for both sides. Having an actual god unbound by the Divine Conventions would provide the IFCC a lot of protection for their master plan. The Dark One benefits too, if the IFCC can somehow give him enough Souls so that he survives the "winter" without a world.

From a Doylist Perspective the Fiends are rather disconnected from the main plot. Either an alliance with or being The Dark One, puts them more into the frame.

In addition, it would be more impactful if Redcloak sides with the Order IN SPITE of his plan actually having a chance of working. If he can actually "win" but still chooses to reject this victory. Because at the moment, the story of Redcloak siding with the Order because he has no options, isn't as narratively satisfying.

Laurentio III

2022-08-23, 05:50 AM

Metastachydium

2022-08-23, 06:18 AM

They had Sabine on the Linear Guild,

Also Qarr later on.

and V on the Order's if you count them.

I'm inclined to do so, personally.

No-one on Team Evil,

Until proven otherwise, I'll continue to treat the roaches as possible IFCC agents.

no one with any of the Scribblers,

Who are mostly dead alongside their teams, so…

no-one with the Azurites,

I'd argue that insofar as they are relevant to the Directors' designs, the Azurites and the Order really aren't separate teams.

no-one on Team Hel.

There was no need; she was effectively working for them, free of charge.

No-one anywhere else.

Not that there really are other relevant factions (except maybe the Vectors, but when Sabine made that comment, Qarr was embedded with them).

They don't though.

But yeah, Sabine was clearly hyperbolic there, I'll readily give you that, my pedantry notwithstanding.

We know the IFCC collects souls. And that non-aligned Clerics like the Creed of Stone can do stuff without a Quiddity-producing God. Masterminds like the Fiends can easily create a god for a brief period.

Yeah, no. Canonically, only mortals are capable of creating new gods and it takes a lot more than souls.

Laurentio III

2022-08-23, 07:08 AM

Until proven otherwise, I'll continue to treat the roaches as possible IFCC agents.
I second this.

PLD

2022-08-23, 01:06 PM

I forgot about the Roaches. They’re probably the pawns of the IFCC.

The Dark One being a creation of the IFCC is maybe less plausible. But I’m not ruling it out

Crimsonmantle

2022-08-24, 01:52 AM

We also know that Outsider's go nuts if memories of the previous worlds aren't wiped.

What if the IFCC avoided the mind wipe?
They don't seem nuts to me.

Laurentio III

2022-08-24, 04:38 AM

The Dark One being a creation of the IFCC is maybe less plausible. But I’m not ruling it out
The spontaneous ascension of a mortal to godlikeness is very rarely, so much to be almost unheard.
On the other hand, sponsored ascensions are almost trivial.
The Dark One could have been secretely sponsored by the IFCC. Still a stretch, but more likely.

Request: I searched the part about mind-wiping outsiders, but can't find the page. I'd like to check it. Someone?

Metastachydium

2022-08-24, 04:44 AM

Request: I searched the part about mind-wiping outsiders, but can't find the page. I'd like to check it. Someone?

Here you go. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html)

Laurentio III

2022-08-24, 05:13 AM

Here you go. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html)
Perfect, thanks.
So, Thor states that outsides get a bit nuts, and as Thor is not stranger to englishman's understating, the wording sound as such. So I'm assuming that they GO crazy and IFCC members seem supersane.
Plus, they have memories of their youth in this same stick world, so I not inclined to believe they skipped the mind purge.

Coppercloud

2022-08-24, 07:46 AM

Rrmcklin

2022-08-24, 09:53 PM

We know the IFCC collects souls. And that non-aligned Clerics like the Creed of Stone can do stuff without a Quiddity-producing God. Masterminds like the Fiends can easily create a god for a brief period.

Why does collecting souls in anyway imply they can "fake a god"? The gods do not give their follows their Quiddity for power, and clerics from organizations like the Creed of Stone simply tape into power that has already existed. It's a basic thing in D&D that even a non-player like me knows about. The two concepts have no relation and it's really strange to take two completely unrelated concepts and then come up with a conclusion that isn't related to either of them.

The spontaneous ascension of a mortal to godlikeness is very rarely, so much to be almost unheard.
On the other hand, sponsored ascensions are almost trivial.
The Dark One could have been secretely sponsored by the IFCC. Still a stretch, but more likely.

Request: I searched the part about mind-wiping outsiders, but can't find the page. I'd like to check it. Someone?

Sponship by other gods. Context makes it clear that's what Thor means, and besides that the idea that non-divine beings can sponsor divinity brings up more question. I understand you're not actually saying this is likely, but I felt the need to point out why it's even more unlikely.

Laurentio III

2022-08-25, 03:26 AM

Sponship by other gods. Context makes it clear that's what Thor means, and besides that the idea that non-divine beings can sponsor divinity brings up more question. I understand you're not actually saying this is likely, but I felt the need to point out why it's even more unlikely.
I agree, but let's take a look at facts.
Sponsorship is not a strict requirement, as the Dark One ascension has been accepted by the gods with a little surprise, but not stupor.
At the same time, a mortal can't ascend by sporsorship alone, or at least is not kosher in the gods book. You have to be worshipped by other mortals already, otherwise I suppose you'd lack faith and you'd be an hollow deity.
And, sponsorship is not damaging to the donor pantheon, or at least noone ever mentioned it this way, and it would be a pretty important info.

So, the Dark One has enough recognition by goblinoid to be allowed to ascend, and a sponsorship by a pantheon would close the deal, but they didn't intervene.

Now, let's speculate that the IFCC holds enough divine power to promote an already prime candidate. They for sure have the souls, and those are power. They have the knowledge, apparently, and the plans. Promoting mortals is a thing they do (Vaarsuvius is a minor example), and long range plans are for sure their bread.

All they need is a mean, and we just don't know if the have a mean or they don't. So an answer carved in the stone is not to be provided, but I'd say that it's at least workable.

Let's just add "IFCC could have sponsored the Dark One ascension" as a minor conspiratory theory.

hroþila

2022-08-25, 05:08 AM

I take "sponsorship" to mean being somehow infused with the sponsoring gods' quiddity to amplify the candidate's own divine power (gained from worship and the like), which is why the elven gods have the same quiddity as the rest of the Western Pantheon. If this is correct, then the IFCC couldn't have possibly sponsored the Dark One for the simple reason that they have no quiddity.

Laurentio III

2022-08-25, 06:01 AM

hroþila

2022-08-25, 06:28 AM

The Dark One apparently made his own quiddity, so a new quiddity can be made. Nothing bar the IFCC to create/acquire a new quiddity, or at least are more qualified than a goblin warlord.
I repeat, they have souls to spare and the knowledge.
Of course a new quiddity can be made, by getting so much worship and dedication etc from mortals that your divine power increases above a certain threshold, which is infinitely easier to do if someone else lends you their quiddity, which dilutes your own potential quiddity and makes you develop that of your sponsor. None of which would apply here. And even if the IFCC could somehow develop a new quiddity in a lab (and chose not to infuse themselves with it for some reason), which is already extremely dubious, it's not at all obvious that they'd be able to infuse a newly deceased mortal with it, even if they had access to his soul.

The IFCC have souls, and they have knowledge, in general, but having knowledge and having the knowledge to do something in particular are very different things. Belief is necessary for ascension, and you can't force even an enslaved soul to believe in something.

Laurentio III

2022-08-25, 06:46 AM

The IFCC have souls, and they have knowledge, in general, but having knowledge and having the knowledge to do something in particular are very different things. Belief is necessary for ascension, and you can't force even an enslaved soul to believe in something.
You don't need. Devotion is something the Dark One already have, plenty. What it needs is a little of divine spark.
I'm suggesting that if any no-divine source of divine spark is present, than the IFCC could have access to it.
And it HAS to be present somewhere, else che Dark One couldn't exist.

To sum: Can a mortal became a God without a pantheon sponsorship?
• No -> The Dark One is a fake
• Yes -> The Dark One is a god.

[Yes] Is it possible to make a new quiddity?
• • No -> The Dark One is a false purple god
• • Yes > The Dark One is a true purple god

Now, my conjecture: in the strenous and extremely rare process of becaming a new god with a new quiddity, could have the IFCC provided help, eventually in secret?
I say it's possible. It took several billions of world just to have a quiddity, for sure it's not an easy task.
I'm not saying "The IFCC pushed a button and a new god was born".
I'm saying: it's possible that they received the soul of a famous, worshipped and rebellous goblinoid, one who was channeling the faith on milions of living goblinoids, and they said: "Guys, let's make it a god. It's almost there, it's just a matter of pushing him in the right direction".

Peelee

2022-08-25, 06:51 AM

I repeat, they have souls to spare and the knowledge.

What knowledge? The knowledge how to sponsor a deity? There is zero evidence of that. The knowledge that it can be done? I have the knowledge an internal combustion engine can be built, but that doesn't mean I can build one.

Also, we don't ever know how it's done. Does it require soul power? Unknown. If so, how much? Do they in fact have the souls to spare? Unknown.

This theory hinges entirely on unknowns that are assumed to be possible based on nothing except that it would be convenient for the theory.

Laurentio III

2022-08-25, 07:04 AM

This theory hinges entirely on unknowns that are assumed to be possible based on nothing except that it would be convenient for the theory.
I myself presented it as a stretch, so I'm not going to argue about the lack of elements of proof. There aren't.
I'm just saying: self-promotion to godlikeness is so incredibly rare that happened once in billions of worlds, no god expected it, and they are almost sure it could not present itself again.
And I suggest: if it's nearly impossible to happen spontaneously, could have been aided by an external source?

If so (and we are already in the unhinged realm or theories) the IFCC have power, knowledge (an unquantified amount, surely more that mortals) and possibly ends for doing it.

I'm not going to put more than a single dollar on this theory but, this is the forum where you discuss theories for fun, so...

brian 333

2022-08-25, 08:23 AM

Peelee

2022-08-25, 08:24 AM

It diminishes the goblin's story to have the pivotal event of their history be something given to them by a non-goblin. They go from being the Apple creators to being the Samsung guys. (Does Samsung make anything they invented themselves?)

.... I've got some bad news for you about Apple. :smallamused:

Spoiler alert, for all his technical intelligence, Steve Jobs was best as a marketer.

brian 333

2022-08-25, 08:37 AM

.... I've got some bad news for you about Apple. :smallamused:

Spoiler alert, for all his technical intelligence, Steve Jobs was best as a marketer.

Argh! My worldview, crushed by exposing the myth for a fraud!

Yeah, Wozniak built on the work of others and used parts he purchased from Radio Shack, while Jobs sold what was made. However, they did it themselves.
And they kept on creating new things and selling them for quite a few years.

Having TDO ascend via a licensing agreement with the IFCC makes the goblin contribution meaningless and converts their struggle for a place at the grown-up table into a petty scheme to destabilize the world for no purpose than to destabilize the world.

The theory as presented turns the goblins from active agents in creating their own destiny into tools being used by others for purposes having nothing to do with goblin equality.

Peelee

2022-08-25, 08:44 AM

Argh! My worldview, crushed by exposing the myth for a fraud!

Yeah, Wozniak built on the work of others and used parts he purchased from Radio Shack, while Jobs sold what was made. However, they did it themselves.
And they kept on creating new things and selling them for quite a few years.

Oh, I'm not knocking what they accomplished, thats nothing short of amazing.

Well, maybe I'll knock a little of what they accomplished. Like the Apple III, where the official company line was "Eh, just drop it and maybe that'll work".

SlashDash

2022-09-01, 03:32 AM

I don't see the logic of a connection between the Dark One and the IFCC - considering they pretty much ruined his chances.

V was going to stop Roy from destroying Girard's gate. That is they used their calling on V.
To make sure that Roy destroys it.

If Roy had not destroyed the gate, I think it's safe to say that as powerful as Tarquin and his gang are, Xykon and Redcloak are still a bigger threat - and the heroes were already at a weak point as it is.

brian 333

2022-09-01, 07:55 AM

Have to admit that a fight between TE and The Vector Legion would have been awesome, but TVL was scattered and Malack was dead by the time TE arrived. All we had was Tarquin and Laurin, with Durkula on the side.

gbaji

2022-09-01, 07:33 PM

I don't think the IFCC had anything to do with the Dark One's rise to godhood. They are outsiders. Manifestations of the astral planes and thus merely conceptual constructs (with sentience, but still). The Gods are also manifestations of concepts, but much much more powerful. They have Quiddity, the IFCC do not. Quiddity is literally the cosmic power to manipulate the energies of the prime material plane to create things. While the IFCC may manifest spells and powers that derive from such creations (say in a world where the gods created magic), they don't generate those creative energies themselves. The Giant's cosmology is interesting in that there is a kind of feedback between what the gods have created and their own power (and even the powers that outsiders can wield). Bit of a chicken and egg question there, but if we just accept that it "is", then gods gain power from the souls of the creatures they create and which fall under their respective purviews (which tend to be alignment based).

The IFCC administer the disposition of souls that go to their respective outer planes, but they do not "own" those souls, nor would they have any ability to use them to create a god, let alone one with a unique quiddity. And any other powers they possess derive specifically from whatever combination of creative choices the gods made in this particular world. In the next one they may manifest in different forms with different powers and abilities (but would still, presumably exist since they are outer plane beings and not prime material plane beings).

My speculation about apotheosis is that when a powerful enough mortal gains sufficient worship via their acts *and* fills some niche that isn't currently filled by an existing deity, then the gods most closely aligned with that mortal may infuses them with divine power and make them a god. This is presumably how the Elven gods came to be, and the various demi-gods we saw at the godsmoot. The gods aren't going to create a new god that already represents some combination of ideas that an existing god already represents (they'd have to share, right?), and frankly no matter how well thought of someone is during their life, if they are conceptually identical to an existing god, the worship would go to the god that this person best personifies. He might be raised up as a special spirit or right-hand whatever to said existing god, but would always be thought of as "great and powerful person who was really devout to his god and represented him perfectly, so eat your wheaties and follow our god and you could be favored like him", and not as a god himself.

TDO is unique in that his area was already unfilled (leader of the goblins) *and* the goblin kind themselves were created specifically in this world to be cannon fodder, with no gods representing them pantheon wise. Thus there was no god who was even close to aligned with TDO when he gained all this support and worship. Normally, absent divine intervention one probably couldn't acquire divinity, simply because of the concepts I mentioned previously. Too much of the worship of a mortals actions would also fall to existing gods that the mortal was aligned with in some way, and not enough to the mortal himself (the mortal will always be seen as a representation of qualities that already exist in a god that his followers believe in and probably worship to some degree). In the case of The Dark One, there were no where else for that divine worship to go, so it all went into him. Since he wasn't part of any existing pantheon, he created a new quiddity as a result.

This does not preclude the IFCC at some point guiding TDO in his path to becoming his own god. And maybe even intentionally causing a new quiddity to form as a result. I'm not sure what they gain from doing this though. I'm pretty sure goblins who died prior to TDO's rise still went to their respective alignment afterlives, so they still managed them anyway. Now when goblin souls are tortured or whatever their soul power goes to TDO instead of to some collection of other evil aligned gods, but again, how does that benefit the IFCC? And if it was some sort of powerplay or agreement with TDO, then you'd think they'd want to keep the world going as long as possible so that TDO can gain as many goblin souls to power him as possible so they'd have more possibility of him actually being powerful enough for them to get something back for all their efforts.

Seems like they want the gates to be destroyed, or at the very least want to hasten the destruction of this world. That seems counter to any deal they may have with TDO, since that would only weaken him and hasten his destruction. Could still involve him in some way, or could have something to do with the snarl, or some other as yet unknown aspect of the whole "gods destroy the world" process.

MetroAlien

2022-09-01, 09:58 PM

arguing about whether the IFCC had a hand in the Dark One's rise is putting the cart before the horse, regardless of whether it's true or not.

It doesn't help answering the question of what their goals are.
I'm saying that because it seems extremely unlikely that the Dark One is a major part of their plans at all.

As far as I can see, they seem to be acting in orthogonal directions to each other.
While there may be intersections on their respective paths, for now it looks more like coincidence than design.

I don't remember any dialogue linking the two together, but feel free to remind me.

gbaji

2022-09-02, 04:51 PM

Yeah. That's true. I just find the discussion of apotheosis and how gods and mortals interact in the Giant's world fascinating from a game/story world construction point of view.

The IFCC's motives need not be as grand as we think. It could literally be as simple as they've become aware of the snarl and the cycle of world destruction and the wiping of outsider memories during that process and just want to preserve themselves in some way through said process. The "artifact" and "vessel" they mentioned could just be some means of storing their memories/personality/whatever in preparation for said wipe. It could also be that their plan requires that the gods destroy the world rather than it being destroyed via release of the snarl for some reason, and that's why they may be pushing things in that direction (explains their position on Hel's gambit at least).

TRH

2022-09-02, 06:40 PM

I'm inclined to think the IFCC will at some point possess Vaarsuvius empty body. They pretended (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0897.html) it was forbidden by their contract, but I'm not sure we can trust them on this, even though it was Lawful Evil director Lee who said so. If they can do such a thing, it was clearly in their best interest to lie so that Vaarsuvius doesn't leave the Order or commit suicide, and instead remains their unwitting pawn until the very end.

I don't think they're going to do that, as such, but I'm standing by my prediction that since the deal was worded such that V would spend allotted time with each of the directors to discharge the soul debts, Lee or Nero will come to the Prime Material as part of their deal, and smash the final Gate once it's been located.

Riftwolf

2022-09-02, 08:58 PM

My personal theory is the IFCC don't know about the outsider mind-wipe between worlds, as it's suggested the Gods keep that information to themselves. I like the fact everyone thus far in the comic makes plans with the information they have, not from an omniscient standpoint, and everyone's missing a few cards from a winning hand.
Also, in the scene where one of the IFCC told V that possessing their body would be a breach of contract; I have real trouble following which fiend is which, so which fiend said it? I feel like it might be a concern for Lee and Nero for their soul-grab durations, but Cedrik might go full basketball-dog on their allotted time.

Ruck

2022-09-02, 09:09 PM

I don't think they're going to do that, as such, but I'm standing by my prediction that since the deal was worded such that V would spend allotted time with each of the directors to discharge the soul debts, Lee or Nero will come to the Prime Material as part of their deal, and smash the final Gate once it's been located.

According to them, "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)"

I see no reason they would lie to Qarr about this, and certainly not in a situation where they would have something to gain by acting directly.

pearl jam

2022-09-02, 09:32 PM

According to them, "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)"

I see no reason they would lie to Qarr about this, and certainly not in a situation where they would have something to gain by acting directly.

Indeed, particularly because it's not unreasonable to think that Qarr is aware of the various restrictions involved with Outsiders acting on the material plane and it's being spelled out in the conversation primarily for the benefit of the readers who wouldn't have prior knowledge of the situation.

Ruck

2022-09-02, 10:07 PM

Indeed, particularly because it's not unreasonable to think that Qarr is aware of the various restrictions involved with Outsiders acting on the material plane and it's being spelled out in the conversation primarily for the benefit of the readers who wouldn't have prior knowledge of the situation.

Right, and just to emphasize, if they could interfere, pulling V out before V gets killed and thus preserving their investment in V would be exactly the time you'd think they would do it.

Laurentio III

2022-09-03, 01:42 AM

TRH

2022-09-03, 07:29 AM

According to them, "We can only act directly on the mortal plane when we're making a deal. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)"

I see no reason they would lie to Qarr about this, and certainly not in a situation where they would have something to gain by acting directly.

Perhaps enforcing a deal is close enough to making one that it also counts? In any case, they also said they can't possess V's body, so I'd call that even less likely. I do know that it just seems naive to assume the involuntary visits to Hell taking V out of action are going to be as bad as that gets. It can get so much worse.

Ruck

2022-09-03, 06:06 PM

Perhaps enforcing a deal is close enough to making one that it also counts? In any case, they also said they can't possess V's body, so I'd call that even less likely. I do know that it just seems naive to assume the involuntary visits to Hell taking V out of action are going to be as bad as that gets. It can get so much worse.

And I think-- while, admittedly, the Giant's commentary for Blood Runs in the Family seems to confirm this-- that a big part of the deal is how such a seemingly minor concession can have drastic consequences. We already saw that happen once.

TRH

2022-09-03, 07:54 PM

And I think-- while, admittedly, the Giant's commentary for Blood Runs in the Family seems to confirm this-- that a big part of the deal is how such a seemingly minor concession can have drastic consequences. We already saw that happen once.

Given that we saw that happen once, what value is there to the same lesson getting hammered home again twice more without the slightest variation or escalation?

Ruck

2022-09-03, 08:31 PM

Given that we saw that happen once, what value is there to the same lesson getting hammered home again twice more without the slightest variation or escalation?

Beats me, but it seems more plausible than "the deal will, at some point, actually break the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed."

TRH

2022-09-03, 09:01 PM

Beats me, but it seems more plausible than "the deal will, at some point, actually break the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed."

You may be overinterpreting what's been established previously. Certainly what's there doesn't contradict the first part of my idea re: them spending a timeshare on the mortal plane instead of in Hell, since just traveling there isn't "acting directly."

I'll add that "breaking the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed" isn't entirely unprecedented. Hel tried to straight up smite Durkon last book after it had been pretty thoroughly established that Gods aren't allowed to do such things simply because she thought she could get away with it, and I'm not going to go broke betting on a bunch of fiends to be more honest than her when the chips are really down.

Ruck

2022-09-03, 09:19 PM

You may be overinterpreting what's been established previously. Certainly what's there doesn't contradict the first part of my idea re: them spending a timeshare on the mortal plane instead of in Hell, since just traveling there isn't "acting directly."

You said they would break the Gate. That's as blatantly "acting directly" as can be.

I'm sure there are some creative uses of the claim on V's soul to remove V from the action that might affect the situation in a way I haven't thought of. Heck, maybe it never comes up and just hangs over V's head for a lifetime.

I'm also confident that if they didn't interfere when it would have greatly benefited them to do so, when they told their new associate they couldn't, it's because they actually can't, rather than that they lied to avoid doing something that would greatly benefit them.

I'll add that "breaking the terms and rules as previously established and confirmed" isn't entirely unprecedented. Hel tried to straight up smite Durkon last book after it had been pretty thoroughly established that Gods aren't allowed to do such things simply because she thought she could get away with it, and I'm not going to go broke betting on a bunch of fiends to be more honest than her when the chips are really down.

You're also assuming "we can only act on the mortal plane" is some kind of rule they've agreed to follow, when it might be an actual metaphysical restriction on their existence baked into the universe. They are outsiders, not gods.

PLD

2022-10-13, 08:56 AM

It diminishes the goblin's story to have the pivotal event of their history be something given to them by a non-goblin. They go from being the Apple creators to being the Samsung guys. (Does Samsung make anything they invented themselves?)

As it stands, the goblins made their own destiny and because they did it can't be taken away. A gift can also be taken back.

I’ve been thinking more about this and no it doesn’t diminish because ultimately the Dark One is not good for Goblin’s interests.

The Dark One’s stated goal is Goblin Equality. But his power comes from being the only Goblin God. His mythology centres on stories of how everyone hates Goblins so only he can provide for them. But true Goblin Equality means the Goblins should have freedom of religion to choose any god. Which means the Dark One has less or even no power. Therefore for the Dark One to survive, the Goblin race needs to suffer. It’s an inherent contradiction which is a bad deal for Goblins. It would hit even harder if the Dark One was no Goblin at all. Perhaps it would even get Redcloak to switch sides.

Fyraltari

2022-10-13, 09:09 AM

Which means the Dark One has less or even no power. Therefore for the Dark One to survive, the Goblin race needs to suffer.

I don't see why that is. Once the goblins are granted their proper place, the Dark One, as the first of the Fourth Pantheon would be likely to transition into the role of leader of his divine clan, like Odin, Dragon and Marduk, with a portfolio of rulership and war (probably as "defender of the goblin people").

His mythology includes him making two attempts to peacefully co-operate, so he shouldn't be unable to co-operate in the way that Loki is unable to tell the truth and as goblin society morphs, their understanding of him would too, changing him into a less angry version of himself (may even shift his alignment out of "Evil", who knows?)

Peelee

2022-10-13, 09:25 AM

But true Goblin Equality means the Goblins should have freedom of religion to choose any god.

But they do. They always have. They freely chose to not worship any god before The Dark One (at least, not in large numbers).

gbaji

2022-10-13, 04:46 PM

But they do. They always have. They freely chose to not worship any god before The Dark One (at least, not in large numbers).

Is that actually true? Or is it that the Gods will not accept goblin worshippers because the goblins were created in this world to be cannon fodder for their followers to fight and kill to gain more levels and more powerful souls so the gods would get more bountiful harvests? I may be misremembering something (and don't have SoD handy), but I thought that was somewhat the whole thing about goblins and why TDO rose to power in the first place.

As to the Goblin Equality thing, I think that's a mistakenly modern definition of equality being used which may or may not apply here. We think equality and we think "equal rights" or something. But that's a fairly new concept historically. I'm reasonably certain that TDO fighting for "goblin equality" is not fighting for the rights of individual goblins to be able to make the same metaphysical choices as the other races. He's fighting for them to collectively have the same/similar amount of power, both physically in the world, and metaphysically via divine representation, as the other races. And that's absolutely about all of them worshipping him, and him being accepted as an equal (or at least having a seat at the table).

Doesn't at all preclude him creating a pantheon over time as well, but I don't think his vision of equality at all includes "goblins being able to worship Thor if they want".

Fyraltari

2022-10-13, 05:15 PM

Is that actually true? Or is it that the Gods will not accept goblin worshippers because the goblins were created in this world to be cannon fodder for their followers to fight and kill to gain more levels and more powerful souls so the gods would get more bountiful harvests? I may be misremembering something (and don't have SoD handy), but I thought that was somewhat the whole thing about goblins and why TDO rose to power in the first place.
It is the least charitable interpretation of the god's actions possible. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html)

As to the Goblin Equality thing, I think that's a mistakenly modern definition of equality being used which may or may not apply here. We think equality and we think "equal rights" or something. But that's a fairly new concept historically. I'm reasonably certain that TDO fighting for "goblin equality" is not fighting for the rights of individual goblins to be able to make the same metaphysical choices as the other races. He's fighting for them to collectively have the same/similar amount of power, both physically in the world, and metaphysically via divine representation, as the other races. And that's absolutely about all of them worshipping him, and him being accepted as an equal (or at least having a seat at the table).

Doesn't at all preclude him creating a pantheon over time as well, but I don't think his vision of equality at all includes "goblins being able to worship Thor if they want".

I don't know, Redcloak at least is fighting for goblins to be able to walk into cities without being treated like vermin. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html)

I don't think it's any way about who worships the dark One or not, Redcloak has no real reaction to Oona telling him her people doesn't really care about the Dark One (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html).

gbaji

2022-10-13, 06:51 PM

It is the least charitable interpretation of the god's actions possible. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html)

I don't know, Redcloak at least is fighting for goblins to be able to walk into cities without being treated like vermin. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1208.html)

Sure. But Redcloak is also correct that their "creator(s)" abandoned them to this fate. So blame Fenris I suppose.

His mention of walking into a city and not being killed on sight is almost a side argument though. He starts out talking about economic/resource issues, then goes to being killed on sight, then goes right back to "The larger point is that.." and continues talking about economic/resource issues. The implication is that if goblins become "established" as a legitimate society on their own, that they will no longer be people who can just be killed on sight. One follows from the other, for the same reason Dwarves aren't killed on sight in human lands, even if there are far from their home and worship completely different gods (like Durkon in Bleedingham). On a metaphysical level, if TDO's pantheon (of one ATM) were accepted by the other pantheons, then their/his followers would have the same treatment as every other race from a different pantheon's area in the world, and would no longer be killed on sight.

I assume that is the sort of "equality" that Redcloak is seeking.

I don't think it's any way about who worships the dark One or not, Redcloak has no real reaction to Oona telling him her people doesn't really care about the Dark One (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html).

Being "no big whoop" is not the same as not being the god they acknowledge as "theirs". Oona also says that they use TDO for weddings and funerals, suggesting that they do worship TDO. The bugbears as a culture may not have the same organized form of worship that the goblins have, complete with clerics and temples and whatnot, but it doesn't follow that if they did, they'd choose to worship some other deities instead of TDO. It's presumably not out of the question, of course, in the same way that I suppose it's possible to find a Dwarf who worships Marduk. Rare, but possible.

It's still a reasonable assumption that the vast majority of dwarves are going to worship the northern gods, right? Same deal here. And TDO is certainly not fighting for goblins to have the right to worship others, even though that could certainly be a (very minor) result.

brian 333

2022-10-13, 08:44 PM

I've not seen any scene in which a deity rejected the worship of a goblin, so it is difficult to extrapolate what circumstances would cause such a rejection.

Thor encouraged the persecution of goblins because they were a convenient target and he never really thought much more about it. I can understand why they never offered him worship. But Loki? Hel? Rat? Nergal? Any deity with War in it's domain list?

I don't think there is enough information to say that 'All' or even 'Most' deities rejected goblin worship, though 'Some' obviously did. I think it is more plausible that goblins rejected the gods, but that is a guess at best.

Peelee

2022-10-13, 09:44 PM

I would also imagine it's possible for a deity to reject worship in the same sense that it's possible for me to reject water thrown on me.

Fyraltari

2022-10-14, 03:05 AM

His mention of walking into a city and not being killed on sight is almost a side argument though.
Maybe, but it is explicitly one of the things he wants.

He starts out talking about economic/resource issues, then goes to being killed on sight, then goes right back to "The larger point is that.." and continues talking about economic/resource issues. The implication is that if goblins become "established" as a legitimate society on their own, that they will no longer be people who can just be killed on sight. One follows from the other, for the same reason Dwarves aren't killed on sight in human lands, even if there are far from their home and worship completely different gods (like Durkon in Bleedingham).
I don't understand why you seem to think following a different god would put a target on their back, the Westerners are happy to fight each other despite all following the same pantheon.

On a metaphysical level, if TDO's pantheon (of one ATM) were accepted by the other pantheons, then their/his followers would have the same treatment as every other race from a different pantheon's area in the world, and would no longer be killed on sight.
Thor can't get the dwarves to stop hating trees, so I really doubt that would work. I mean, it's be a start, but I don't think ot'd be enough.

Being "no big whoop" is not the same as not being the god they acknowledge as "theirs". Oona also says that they use TDO for weddings and funerals, suggesting that they do worship TDO.
It strikes me as very similar to Roy's relationship to the Northern Gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) and when died he was sent to the religiously unafilliated afterlife. To me it seems that to worship a God in a way that actively gives them Worship, Souls and Dedication, you've gotta put actual weight into it and not bully his clergy into doing the rituals faster.

And TDO is certainly not fighting for goblins to have the right to worship others, even though that could certainly be a (very minor) result.
But what makes you think that the goblins aren't allowed to worship other gods rather than them collecticely deciding that the gods who threw them under the bus (from their perspective) can go pound sand?

Thor encouraged the persecution of goblins because they were a convenient target and he never really thought much more about it. I can understand why they never offered him worship.
Thor didn't encourage it. He just didn't do anything either way.

But Loki? Hel? Rat? Nergal? Any deity with War in it's domain list?
Are in the same bag as Thor. Hell, the War God of the Northerners is Tyr and he really (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html) doesn't like (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html) goblins.

KorvinStarmast

2022-10-14, 09:53 AM

I'm inclined to do so, personally. As will I. I know that V told Roy about the familicide, but did V tell Roy about being taken away by the fiends, and owing them two more trips? I don't recall seeing that "on screen"

Until proven otherwise, I'll continue to treat the roaches as possible IFCC agents. Plausible.

I'd argue that insofar as they are relevant to the Directors' designs, the Azurites and the Order really aren't separate teams.

The Dark One could have been secretly sponsored by the IFCC. Still a stretch, but more likely. I am trying to see their motive in doing this, but now that you raise it I won't rule it out even though it is a stretch.

... it was clearly in their best interest to lie so that Vaarsuvius doesn't leave the Order or commit suicide, and instead remains their unwitting pawn until the very end. Not sure about unwitting, but uncertain about when the two additional payments will come due.

The theory as presented turns the goblins from active agents in creating their own destiny into tools being used by others for purposes having nothing to do with goblin equality. Which is what goblins have been canonically in D&D since about 1974: minions of an evil wizard or evil cult/priest. And it's how they started out in DCF and OtOotPCs: minions of a powerful, evil lich.
I don't see the logic of a connection between the Dark One and the IFCC - considering they pretty much ruined his chances. He did say it was a reach.

I don't think the IFCC had anything to do with the Dark One's rise to godhood. They are outsiders. Manifestations of the astral planes and thus merely conceptual constructs (with sentience, but still). Outer planes, if we are dealing with D&D ish style cosmology. The astral plane is its own thing.

My speculation about apotheosis is that when a powerful enough mortal gains sufficient worship via their acts *and* fills some niche that isn't currently filled by an existing deity, then the gods most closely aligned with that mortal may infuses them with divine power and make them a god. Don't they first become a demigod, like that dwarf king who ascended?

TDO is unique in that his area was already unfilled (leader of the goblins) *and* the goblin kind themselves were created specifically in this world to be cannon fodder, with no gods representing them pantheon wise. Fenrir did, but he was a negligent creator and abandoned his responsibilities.

This does not preclude the IFCC at some point guiding TDO in his path to becoming his own god.

Seems like they want the gates to be destroyed, or at the very least want to hasten the destruction of this world. That seems counter to any deal they may have with TDO, since that would only weaken him and hasten his destruction. Yeah, those two aims do seem to be directly opposed.

littlebum2002

2022-10-14, 10:07 AM

Right, and just to emphasize, if they could interfere, pulling V out before V gets killed and thus preserving their investment in V would be exactly the time you'd think they would do it.

But their investment in V is solely the ability to take V out of major events or battles so that V can't influence the events or battles, and V dying would accomplish that even better.

As will I. I know that V told Roy about the familicide, but did V tell Roy about being taken away by the fiends, and owing them two more trips? I don't recall seeing that "on screen"

First panel

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html

KorvinStarmast

2022-10-14, 02:19 PM

First panel
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0944.html Thank you!

gbaji

2022-10-14, 07:05 PM

I don't understand why you seem to think following a different god would put a target on their back, the Westerners are happy to fight each other despite all following the same pantheon.

I didn't say that. I said that the difference between a Dwarven worshipper of Thor showing up in a city outside the northern lands (and not being killed on sight) and a Goblin worshiper of TDO showing up in *any* city in *any* of the three regions of the world (and being killed on sight) isn't that the Dwarf worships gods not of that region, or is of a race that's not native to that region, but that the three pantheons have accords and agreements in place, and presumably at least some of those involve allowing the worshippers and races of their respective pantheons and regions to travel without automatically being considered enemies to be killed on sight. Yes, obviously the mortal races have the freedom to engage in their own political squabbles and wars and whatnot, but it's not the same thing that will get a goblin killed just walking up to the front gate.

It's not unreasonable to assume that if TDO and the other pantheons came to a similar agreement that this would change. Maybe not all at once, but over time. And heck, we can argue that Redcloak is already gaining some of that now. Gobbotopia has a peace and sovereign recognition agreement with Cliffport, right? That's a human city. Presumably, they somehow managed to get their goblin representative and their human representatives to sit down at a table and hammer out that agreement (with no killing even!. And presumably, at least part of this may involve trade agreements, which will also presumably include allowing goblin merchants to do business with human merchants in both directions and in both cites (so again, goblins and humans interacting without killing each other).

So that's a step in the direction. Getting pantheon recognition gets them further. Although, I suspect that threatening them with the snarl probably wont get the kind of warm fuzzy reception one might believe.

It strikes me as very similar to Roy's relationship to the Northern Gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) and when died he was sent to the religiously unafilliated afterlife. To me it seems that to worship a God in a way that actively gives them Worship, Souls and Dedication, you've gotta put actual weight into it and not bully his clergy into doing the rituals faster.

Sure. I'm not sure how this gets us to an assumption that tons of goblinoids are just aching to worship other gods though. Can we agree that the hobgoblins and their Roy-like attitude for TDO would likely extend to other deities as well? A hobgoblin who just uses another deity for weddings and funerals, but nothing else would not be a big gain/loss for anyone either. The entire discussion somewhat assumes we're examining cases where worship matters, and whether goblin worship could be pointed at others as a result of TDO's actions (and how significant that may be).

Remember, I was responding to someone speculating that Redcloak was fighting for the freedom of goblins to worship other deities than just TDO (or that it might be a consequence of the fight? Honestly forgotten).

But what makes you think that the goblins aren't allowed to worship other gods rather than them collecticely deciding that the gods who threw them under the bus (from their perspective) can go pound sand?

I don't know that they aren't allowed. But it does seem strange that we've yet to hear of any goblin anywhere actually worshipping any deity other than TDO, and it's strongly suggested that the entire reason TDO rose to godhood was precisely because the goblins were without any deity and thus had to create their own.

If the solution to the goblins problems was to just start worshiping the existing gods, I suspect they would have been doing that long before TDO ever showed up on the scene, and he'd never have needed to fight (and die, and ascend) the way he did in the first place. We kinda have to assume there's some reason this didn't happen.

Ruck

2022-10-14, 07:44 PM

His mention of walking into a city and not being killed on sight is almost a side argument though. He starts out talking about economic/resource issues, then goes to being killed on sight, then goes right back to "The larger point is that.." and continues talking about economic/resource issues. The implication is that if goblins become "established" as a legitimate society on their own, that they will no longer be people who can just be killed on sight.

The thing is, I don't think it's a side argument, so much as I think the two go hand in hand. In other words, I think that final sentence and implication, Redcloak is most likely right about.

But their investment in V is solely the ability to take V out of major events or battles so that V can't influence the events or battles, and V dying would accomplish that even better.

"If the elf dies here, this whole thing was a huge waste of time. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0656.html)" Doesn't seem like they agree with you.