Mordheim, any suggestions?

[Narmoth]

So, I'm about to play my first game of mordheim with a friend and some other guy my friend knows.
I'll be playing a proxy gang of shadow warrior elves.
I expect to filed a shadow master, a shadow weaver and 1 or 2 shadow walkers. I will also have some henchmen shadow warriors or novices.
I have no idea how to play, besides having read throught the rules. I have never played any tabletop games like this, only AD&D.
So, any pointers or suggestions or anything to keep me from being totally overrun.:smalleek:
I think one of them will be fielding ogres and the other skaven, but I'm not shure.

[Closet_Skeleton]

No idea, I lost every Mordheim game I ever played.

[Driderman]

Hmm. Never played it, but played a lot of Necromunda and I've been told its basically the same thing. If that is the case my advice would be to gear the mainstay of your gang for effective melee combat and keep a few shooters to take out the biggies, like ogres...
Also, do not underestimate the value of cover. Melee combat is rewarding but risky. Taking cover and keeping the opponent pinned down with your ranged attackers is an effective way to keep him occupied and demoralize him.

[Wraith]

When my local GW ran a Mordheim campaign last year, I am happy to say that I came 1st in the field, with 16 wins and 1 loss, with a streak of 14 in a row. So I suppose I know a little about the game... :smallsmile:

There's lots to know, but although I usually play Skaven here's a few pointers to help you and your pointy-eared companions out a bit.

Elves excel with bows
Shooting in Mordheim is not even nearly as dangerous as melee - it's harder to be good at, and it's always harder to hurt someone with a bow compared to a sword or axe.
Elves, however, are better than virtually everyone else, and so your best tactic is to split your warband into two: Half with bows, half with melee weapons.
Stick your Archers together inside a building/on top of somewhere high, give them a bit of scenery to hide behind, and have them shoot at anything that doesn't have pointy ears. Meanwhile, your melee characters can run forward, knowing that the enemy puts himself at severe risk if he pokes his head out to shoot you.
The 'Overwatch' rule will win you the game provided you can see enough of the table and have enough archers.

More Attacks > Stronger Attacks
Particularly early in a campaign, it's a lot better to give your fighters two swords, rather than one big one. It is statistically easier to kill someone with 3, S3 attacks than it is with 1 S5 attack. If all else fails, just buy everyone a sword - they already get a dagger for FREE, and that gives you an extra Attack just as a normal sword does!

Armour, and Why You Should Get Your Enemy To Buy It
Buying armour for your characters in Mordheim is risky. It's very expensive, and a lot of the time it doesn't actually help very much as too many weapons can reduce your Saving Throw or even remove it altogether.
Save your money and buy more models with good weapons, rather than a few with good weapons AND armour. This will make your offense even more dangerous, it will be harder to make your Warband "Bottle Out" and it's not such an expense if one of your cheap characters dies.

Hunt In Packs
While Mordheim Warbands are much smaller than a normal Fantasy Army, don't be tempted into thinking that 1 person can run around on their own and be safe. You get all sorts of bonus' from having friendly models within a few inches of each other, and if you attack one enemy model with 3 of your own then you;re more likely to kill them than with just the one.

That should give you a good foundation to start out with - just remember that no matter what, you're going to lose if the dice are against you so just have fun while you can :smallbiggrin:

[Manticorkscrew]

You're playing as Elves. That means you need to rely a great deal on your shooting ability. Lots of bows. Your characters should have high BS and mediocre WS. Shadow Warriors are one of the most expensive warbands out there, so you need to play to their strengths.

Skaven are nasty in close combat, and they're good at ranged combat at relatively short ranges. And you'll be facing a lot of them. Anything that can sap their morale is good. Try to thin their numbers with superior arrow fire.

I've never fought Ogres. From a glance over their experimental rules, it looks like they have a handful of incredibly expensive (but really powerful) Ogres, and bulk out their numbers with lots of Gnoblars. With a bit of luck and a lot of firepower, you should be able to whittle away at the wounds of the big Ogres before they reach you (but they're very fast, so watch out!).

Also, Ogre ranged combat looks surprisingly nasty. The Leadbelcher cannon is a mighty one-shot weapon.

Since you're playing Shadow Warriors you probably need to stay close to cover. I remember that most of their spells rely on there being a "wall" or other shadow-casting object about.

[Narmoth]

So, swords and daggers then for eveybody. And lots of bows.
I think I'll run with 3 shadow walkers for close combat with 2 swords and some shadow warriors as archers. Then I'll put the shadow master and shadow walker shadow weawer together with some novices for protection.

edit: of course, I meant shadow weawer and not shadow walker protected by novices

[Wraith]

I would recommend you take a Shadow Weaver, to be honest - especially if you know you're going to fight Ogres, a lucky roll on your Spell Table will make things a whole lot easier.

Similarly, more Heroes means rolling more dice to see how much money you make at the end of the game. This is where the Skaven will excel (They can have 6 heroes, everyone else is limited to 5) and the last thing you want is to start falling behind, especially when casualties start building up.

[Hakola]

You've already gotten some good advice so I'll just contribute a tactic that worked wonders for me when I used to play.

Concentrate your attacks on the opponents heroes. They are by far more dangerous than henchmen, and at the end of the day, if you've been able to take out some heroes, you will have crippled their income.

[YPU]

also, elven bows probably aren’t worth the points, longbows are. Bigger groups of henchmen gain xp faster (or I have read the rules wrong), and will sooner become heroes. The more heroes the more shards, so try to find a balance.

[Driderman]

Seems like my impression that it's a lot like Necromunda was correct. In that case, remember to bring your lucky dice. One of my friends actually threw my dice through the room after I beat him for the 4th time in one sitting playing Necromunda. Do not underestimate the psychological power of lucky dice :)

As for hunting in packs, I'm not sure what the Mordheim rules are but I remember that in Necromunda you would want your characters spread out, since if a unit was downed within 6 inches of another, that other unit had to make a morale save. Which was a bad thing. Of course, being within a certain distance of the leader gave them a bonus of some sort...

[UncleWolf]

I am a big fan of the skaven warbands so here are a few tips.

1) Skaven have very low leadership but they have lots of guys so you have to knock out about five of them before they have to take route tests.

2) They get poisonous weapons. They can do damage fast if they actually hit.

3)They are fast buggers. Try to pick them out at LONG range or charge them if they are in charging range.

4) Don't hole up on a 2nd or 3rd floor of a building and expect to be able to pick them off one by one. Some skaven can climb up walls without needing a climb check.

5) KILL THE RATOGRE! They are nasty to go against in combat even without them being able to cause fear.

6) Try to ignore the henchmen. Skaven henchmen are just cannon fodder that wear down your warband. Go straight to the Heros

The second biggest tip that i can give you is this...
You don't need to "destroy" their warband. You only need to knock out a quarter (1/4) of their warband. If you can't kill their heros, kill the henchmen. there are more of them and they are weaker and easier to kill.

The biggest tip is...
HAVE FUN!!!!:smallsmile:

[YPU]

I also happen to have started shadow warriors, (using wood elves in grey for the models tough) and have just played my first ever mordheim game against my girlfriends night gobo’s, the breakthrough scenario, I won as attacker due to my elves good movement and shooting. I am rather fearful of the three squigs she bought from it. Luckily I managed to roll +1BS for my 4 warriors group, now that is nice.


a big tip: always take into account the scenario, and work on that, don’t get pined down on killing the enemy if you don’t really have to. ten again shoot anything you can with elves, and make sure every one of them has a longbow, elven bows are to expansive, their BS is to high for them not to have longbows.

[Narmoth]

Seems like my impression that it's a lot like Necromunda was correct. In that case, remember to bring your lucky dice. One of my friends actually threw my dice through the room after I beat him for the 4th time in one sitting playing Necromunda. Do not underestimate the psychological power of lucky dice :)

I'm as an experienced dm, and a person with rudimentary understanding of statistics and probability, don't believe in lucky dice. :smallcool:

Well, I guess I'll boost up on bows for as many henchmen as possible. What i really wonder about, is how much an effect the magic of the shadow weaver has in the game, as I was expecting more interesting spells than what's inhis spell list. Is there any way to boost his magic?

[Driderman]

It doesn't matter if you believe in lucky dice, as long as your opponent does :smallbiggrin:

[Narmoth]

It doesn't matter if you believe in lucky dice, as long as your opponent does :smallbiggrin:

Oh, he does. he thinks his dice (at least the ones he uses fro D&D) are cursed. Then again, cheap dice actually are not properly weighted, so they will fall more on one side than another.
It's just very hard to tell. I have a friedn that tried to determine that in the shop before buying. after trying dice for an hour, the girl that ran the shop really hated him :smallwink:

[Water_Walker]

My first suggestion is to max out your Hereos, The more hereos you got the more income you'll generate later.
Second Don't buy armour, if you want a armour save buy a shield.
third shoot the enemy hereos before they get into combat, If they do get into combat climb to the second story and jump attack them (Once 2 young bloods jumped on my ogre mercenary, one killed the ogre outright the other fell flat on his face and went out of action)

[Elfanatic]

What i really wonder about, is how much an effect the magic of the shadow weaver has in the game, as I was expecting more interesting spells than what's in his spell list. Is there any way to boost his magic?

A familiar could help in casting spells, and runestones in dispelling those of the enemy. However, the familiar cannot be bought from the start, and runestones are rather pricy.

I would not disregard Shadow Warrior magic out of hand. It is quite handy to annoy and disrupt the enemy plans (and arrows). Most of them recuire terrain to work, but in Mordheim you'll find plenty. Also, few of the spells need line of sight, so you could snipe behind large hills and buildings without fear of reprisal.

[Narmoth]

Houray, I had my first game today. It was great!

I played against a warband of 14 skaven and a warband of 5 ogres and a gnoblar with ranged attacks.
I played with 4 heroes (shadow master, weaver and 2 walkers) and 4 shadow warriors, and won both both of the skirmishes we played.
I even managed to equip all of my warband with longbows for the 2nd one.

So thanks to all for your suggestions.
Longbows really made the difference, for even if my gang was awfull with actually wounding, both of the other players were afraid to get to exposed to my archers.

[Wraith]

Congratulations, Narmoth - to win BOTH your first games of Mordheim is a brilliant achievement, so I salute you sir :smallbiggrin:

Which scenarios did you play, if I may ask? There's a certain few that I particularly enjoy playing (Breakthrough, and attacking in a Take and Hold mission namely) and I'm curious as if you feel the same way.

Similarly, what's next? I'd go for your next Youngblood Hero and train him up to be a close combat specialist, with possibly an Ogre mercenary to boot in the meantime.
I'm sure some people would argue that you may be better off focusing on making your shooting stronger, but I always feel that the best way to scare your opponent is to trick them into thinking that you're only good at picking him off from a distance, before unleashing a 2-Sword-Wielding, Poison Bladed, 5 Attacks Parrying CC Monster on anyone foolish enough to sneak up on your archers... :smallwink:

[Narmoth]

The first was a hunt for stones with one stone readilly awailable for taking by each group (relatively close to the starting point of each group) and one in the midle. laying on a low ruin that was easily accessible from 2 sides and that could be shot at from almost every building on the table.

In this battle I had only 3 elfs with longbows, namely the master and 2 warriors, with the walkers equipped with sword and dagger for close combat and the 2 other warriros with sword and dagger following the ranged henchmen. (As mentioned, I play the optional elven warband shadow warriors)

My largest asset was that I got the cloak of darkness spell for my wizard, allowing me to pick up the first wyrdstone even if I was threathened by skaven (who also had one).

The 2nd stone I picked right in front of the skaven hero and his 2 accompanying henchmen by having heavy missile cover (all 3 bows) for the weaver and the warrior who together charged to get the wyrdstone.

The 2 other bands retreated with a wyrdstone each, not wanting to risk any casualties in a fight for wyrdstones allready captured


The 2nd was a holding game, where we were supposed to hold a number of buildings corelated to our number of heroes able to hold a building.
The ogre player needed only to hold 1, I had to hold 2 and the skaven player, who had just invested in 2 more hencmen, had to hold 3.

The total number of buildings that could be held was 5, so it became mostly a duel between my elfs and the skaven, who also fought the ogres.

The skaven ended up running to keep their heroes and henchmen, as I now had every member of my warband equiped with longbow, dagger and sword. The mage incloak of darkenss came this tiem inhandy as a hidden reinforcement, as she could block a skaven henchman that due to very biased rolling was about to finish of my shadow master and a shadow warrior.

In the end, the ogre player managed to secure a buiolding and I occupied 3. Both of us won, and the skaven player lost, but none of my elfs were out of action while both of them lost men.

Afte the last battle I was able to upgrade one of the henchmen to hero, and I got better ballistic skill for all my henchmen, making them as good shooters as the shadow master.
I'm now thinking of buying shields for the warband as ranged protection, as the skavens massive sling attack actually proved to be dangerous.

What are youngblood heroes?

When it comes to further expansions, I feel that 8 in the gang is a good number. It enalbes me to split them up, setting up a few warriors for ranged support (30'' range with longbow is simply great when sitting on top floor of the building) and a solid task force, namely the leader and the mage coupled with shadow walker support that can attack in several directions at once.
I doubt I'll be taking any mercenaries. I'd rather get more shadow warriors with bows :smallsmile:

[Wraith]

Well played - I would have imagined a Take and Hold game against Ogres would be more bloody than that though :smallwink:

Ignore the "Youngblood" thing - it's been a while since I looked through the Shadows Warriors rules, and had forgotten that they don't have Youngbloods.

If you look in the Mordheim rulebook's rules for other Warbands, you'll be able to see that they are basically very weak, rather cheap Heroes who start the game with 0 XP. Basically they're useless until you get them some XP and they can become truly mighty because you can decide all their abilities, rather than pre-buying a normal Hero that already has them 'Built in'.

I'd recommend learning what they are and how to spot them, because although they're Heros (and therefore more expensive than Henchmen) they're usually a lot weaker and easier to kill, much to the chagrin of your opponents. You on the other hand, don't have them and don't need to worry so much... :smallbiggrin:

Fair enough about the Mercenaries comment - they're to my taste, and not many others'. Consider building your Warband's numbers up as soon as you can though - that's the best way to ensure you don;t run away from the fight before you're ready too, and it doesn't matter if a few henchmen die if it means that your Heroes can survive to find more precious Wyrdstone....

[Narmoth]

Well, I've actually upgraded one of my henchmen to hero, so I think he counts as a youngblood. I think I'll make him a double of my shadow master, a kind of second in command that will lead the 2nd half of my squad.

One of the resons for not wanting to have more that 8th in my group is that the skaven player has 16 in his, and last game 4 of them were standing in a tower, doing nothing. I have allready characters that are simply standing around, like my mage, that is barely more usefull than a normal shadow warrior with her invisibility.
Also, I'd rather make 8th really good, very converted models, tha 16 poorly painted ones

[YPU]

I got better ballistic skill for all my henchmen, making them as good shooters as the shadow master.

Hey, me two. Managed to get them a large amount of xp in the first battle, then roll +1 bs for the entire group of five. Makes for an extremely good war band after the first game. I also took a hero with a great weapon for a little more hard hitting. Also a familiar is one of the best things to get, its quite cheap and greatly increase your chance of casting your spells.

[Narmoth]

I just don't like the whole consept of familiars. Generaly speaking.
Then fun part is now that I'll sae up money and buy gromil aromur, or whatever it's called, for the heroes, making them more or less invincible. Does anyone know if I can take any 2 one hand weapons for fighting with 2 hands?
I'm wanitng to take axes in addition to swords in stead of daggers, so I get both parry and attack bonus :smallsmile:

[Wraith]

Does anyone know if I can take any 2 one hand weapons for fighting with 2 hands?

Yes, yes you can. Whereas there are some limitations - morningstar and spears can only be used with a shield, for example - you are free to mix and match among the weapons you want.

Main rulebook on page 19 says so.

Off the top of my head I can't think of any particularly good combinations, though usually a sword and brace of dueling pistols (S4, Armour Piercing, Parry and optional long-range if you need it) will suffice for just about any situation short of something seriously unusual, like a highly experienced Vampire of Ogre.

Pretty expensive though, so maybe just one pistol will do for the time being!

[Narmoth]

Playing elves, I can't use gunpoder. I could amybe use a crossbow pistol, but I think the axe and sword combo would be great for close combat, and longbow for ranged attacks.

[YPU]

i am starting a beastmen warband as well, so any sugestions for that? does a batle axe do anything to do anything else then a normal axe?
btw, elves need a special skill to use a axe, or crosbow pistol.

[Narmoth]

A 2 handed weapon gives +2 to strength on the attack. I think a battle axe counts as 2 handed

[Wraith]

I think you;re right, Narmoth - that's how I've always referred to 2-handed axes, at least.

Just remember: As well as being very hard hitting, Two Handed weapons also have the "Slow" quality, which means that if you have a 2 Hander and your opponent doesn't, they get to attack first. If everyone has a 2-Handed weapon, it's usually a good way of getting yourself killed :smalltongue:

Personally I'd take 2 axes, one for each hand. Beastmen are usually strong enough to manage without the +2 bonus, and as I said earlier more attacks are always better than one really strong one in Mordheim.
Maybe take one model with one just in case you come up against something hideous like a Possessed or and Ogre Mercenary, but you'll regret it it if everyone has one - particularly if you Leader has it and keeps getting hacked down before he can swing it!

[YPU]

There is a “2-handed weapon” on the equipment list, and no other axe, so I assume its just a normal axe, tough dwarves axes have special rules IIRC. On the other hand, mace and hammer both have a separate entry on the equipment list, while they are entirely the same. Also, a sword is crucial for any leader, the block ability is to good to pas up, at the beginning of a campaign clubs are superior to axes, anybody (with the exception of undead) has more change of getting knocked by a club, but few enemies have armor so a -1 to armor save has little use. I have maxed out on heroes with these, as that will mean much shineys quicly, perhaps I will soon ad a minotaur. My henchmen consist of 4 ungors with clubs and dagers and a warhound.

[Leon]

Longbows really made the difference, for even if my gang was awfull with actually wounding, both of the other players were afraid to get to exposed to my archers.

I had a Reikland warband that consisted of 7 members, Fear of my firepower kept them alive a lot of the time and messed up those who tempted it

The Firepower was 4 Dueling Pistols, 2 Pistols, 1 Repeating Crossbow, 2 Longbows and a Crossbow

Across a spread of hero's with the important skills for each

Ive been thinking about getting back into the game (1st i'll get my friends back into it...) and have decided on a choice of 2 Warbands - Sisters of Sigmar or Undead (Undead has further Options: a Strigoi or Blood Dragon Theme)

Although i had forgotten about the Non core book war bands till today i have less of the resouces avalible to get ahold of them