Middle save progression

[Biggus]

I've been toying with the idea of introducing an intermediate save progression (+0.4 per level, with an additional +1 at 1st level). A few classes effectively have this already (Scout has Battle Fortitude, Swashbuckler has Grace).

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions about which classes' saves should be changed to this if it were introduced. Cleric and Druid's Fortitude seem like good candidates, as does a Paladin's Will. Which others would you change and why?

[AvatarVecna]

I've been toying with the idea of introducing an intermediate save progression (+0.4 per level, with an additional +1 at 1st level). A few classes effectively have this already (Scout has Battle Fortitude, Swashbuckler has Grace).

I'd be interested to hear people's opinions about which classes' saves should be changed to this if it were introduced. Cleric and Druid's Fortitude seem like good candidates, as does a Paladin's Will. Which others would you change and why?

Barbarian Reflex.

[Particle_Man]

Possibly downgrade the good saves of the npc classes into medium saves.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Would probably be easier to just have 1/2 level with no +2 at first level. 0.4xlevel is a pain to calculate.

I guess the Paladin's Will should be medium. I think I'd gave both Ref and Will to the fighter, just because the poor guy needs something, and because he's a well-trained soldier with both his body, senses and mind sharpened to the extreme. PsyWar (and PsyRogue) should get medium Will, and the Knight should get Fort. The warblade is very agile and the artificer has precise movements, medium reflex could reflect that. Probably medium fort to death master, since they deal with undead so often. The samurai, swashbuckler and spellthief HAVE to get at least medium reflex. Probably downgrade the binder's and archivist's fortitude, and I think I'd give the Factotum all three medium saves.

[ShurikVch]

FWIW, Herald PrC (Errata (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101183031/http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/PowerofFaerun_Errata05242006.zip) for Power of Faerûn) already have "middle save progression" for the Reflex save

[Biggus]

Barbarian Reflex.

Yeah, I'd been considering that one. Fits with their "quick reactions" class features (Uncanny Dodge/Trap Sense).


Possibly downgrade the good saves of the npc classes into medium saves.

I hadn't thought about the NPC classes. I can see your logic, but they only get one good save each already so it seems a bit harsh...


Would probably be easier to just have 1/2 level with no +2 at first level. 0.4xlevel is a pain to calculate.

Not a bad idea. 0.4/level +1 comes out closer to half-way between though, and forms a pretty simple pattern (goes up every two levels then every three in alternation).



I guess the Paladin's Will should be medium. I think I'd gave both Ref and Will to the fighter, just because the poor guy needs something, and because he's a well-trained soldier with both his body, senses and mind sharpened to the extreme. PsyWar (and PsyRogue) should get medium Will, and the Knight should get Fort. The warblade is very agile and the artificer has precise movements, medium reflex could reflect that. Probably medium fort to death master, since they deal with undead so often. The samurai, swashbuckler and spellthief HAVE to get at least medium reflex. Probably downgrade the binder's and archivist's fortitude, and I think I'd give the Factotum all three medium saves.

Good idea about the Factotum, fits well with their character concept of "jack of all trades, master of none". With the Fighter, I did think of giving them medium Reflex but for Will I'm more inclined to steal the PF Bravery class feature (bonus to Will saves against fear) as it feels more fitting than a general increase.

Fort for the Knight is a definite, was always a bit bewildered why it isn't already good tbh. As noted in the OP, Swashbuckler already gets Grace which is almost exactly the same as a medium save, so moving them to medium is likewise a shoo-in.

Not sure about the Death Master, tend to agree with the others though (the ones I'm familiar with anyway, I don't know psionics or ToB very well).


FWIW, Herald PrC (Errata (https://web.archive.org/web/20161101183031/http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/files/PowerofFaerun_Errata05242006.zip) for Power of Faerûn) already have "middle save progression" for the Reflex save

:smallconfused: So in this case "middle save" means "same as good save but with only +1 at 1st level"? Can't help wondering if the errata is itself in error on this occasion (wouldn't be the first time).

[Inevitability]

Bard's will saves, battle dancers' fortitude, beguiler's reflex, perhaps the dread necro's fortitude also.

[Biggus]

Bard's will saves

I'd thought about the Bard but I'd be more inclined to drop their Reflex save to medium if anything.

[ShurikVch]

:smallconfused: So in this case "middle save" means "same as good save but with only +1 at 1st level"? Can't help wondering if the errata is itself in error on this occasion (wouldn't be the first time).
Isn't the Epic Save Bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/basics.htm#epicSaveBonus) the actual in-game "middle save progression"?
Now, compare the Herald's Ref save with Epic Save Bonus: matching Herald's level 1 to Epic Level 23 - the progression is the same from this point