For Fun: projects for the next world AKA "Let's farm a new quiddity!"

[Laurentio III]

Roy fails, Xykon fails, the Snarl escapes, rocks fall (everyone dies)

After an adeguate rest interval and the ritual launch of a new commemorative statue, the gods brainstorm for the next world.
This time, with the goal of making an ideal ambient for self-ascending gods with a brand new quiddity. And, ideally, not stubborn as the Dark One.

My suggestion would be, to start, to not sponsor any new god. They have to get to the top on their own, or it's useless.
I mean, at my times you had to ascend in the snow for two miles, and it was uphill both ways!

Second, play no preferite between races. The Dark One was the underdog, patron of underdogs! So it's hardship for everyone! Swamps, stark rocky mountains and scorched deserts for all. Survival of the fittest.

Third, make prominent heroes, kings and sacerdotes of any given culture more known. This is tricky, because you don't want it to be just a popularity reality show, but you need every Conan the Barbarian to be well known, else no one can worship them. I was thinking about a modron-managed broadcasting system, but it's too destructive of the daily life of regular commoners. I mean, TV contests in medieval times? No one would work the fields anymore.
Making any creature stronger and taller when their popularity arise? It works for bosses in WoW...

[Zarhan]

I was thinking about a modron-managed broadcasting system, but it's too destructive of the daily life of regular commoners. I mean, TV contests in medieval times? No one would work the fields anymore.
Making any creature stronger and taller when their popularity arise? It works for bosses in WoW...

There's nothing limiting the world to medieval fantasy setting, even Thor is missing (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1140.html) the laser-snail. I guess that one would be something similar to Shadowrun.

So reality show would very much be an option. Or promote creativity for some really good rock bands. Elvis the King-God?

[Mike Havran]

Until the gods learn about the underlying cause behind the Dark One's ascension, more prudent method will be repeating the same setup they used for this current world ad nauseam, in hope to get the repeated result and learn more about the process. If they try to invoke new quiddity by guesswork alone, they might as well disable the unique balance that led to the purple one this time.

[InvisibleBison]

The problem with this idea is that we don't know how a new god's quiddity is determined or what constitutes sponsorship. It's entirely possible that the gods trying to stack the deck to encourage the ascension of new gods is enough to count as sponsorship. Even if not, there's no guarantee that any new gods will have a new quiddity. After all, Thor indicates (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html) that he doesn't understand why the Dark One does.

[Laurentio III]

Repeating the very same scheme is a conservative move, but not going to work as soon as the gods hope.
Let's see the number. There is an arbitrary high number of worlds that didn't work, and apparently most of them are "a boring fantasy pastiche". When Thor gives some example of deranged variants, it's "talking animals", "gritty cyberpunk" and "living food". And at least the latter is confirmed to be... a fantasy.
So, billions of times a fantasy world DIDN'T produce a quiddity, once did. And, no no-fantasy world did, but as those are a minority, it's debatable in term of effficiency.

I'd work on what is different in THIS fantasy pastiche.
To start: goblins are medium sized. I don't know if it's important. Maybe being small sized compared to common foes is depressing, while looking them in the eyes is empowering.
Second: they are self-aware about being in a fantasy world. I suppose that reduces the philosophical elements about who you are, and what you are going to do.
Third: the underdogs that produced a god are a sentient, warmonger race with numbers over strenght.

If we want to redo the same game and hope for a streak, then some element could be amplified.
Maybe a size raise for Kobolds is a cheap move that could double the chances.

[ZhonLord]

I agree that having a desperate underdog who creates their own god through sheer determination to survive, is a critical factor to recreating the Dark One's ascension. But remember one thing: these underdogs created an Evil God who in turn threatened the other pantheons rather than ally with them. They can't just farm a new quiddity, they also have to make sure it manifests in a god who's amicable to negotiations. If the Dark One had been good or neutral, the others wouldn't have had to hide the Snarl from him, and there would have been no risk of the god discovering it on his own and feeling betrayed.

In order to achieve true stability against the Snarl, they have to obliquely encourage a Good or Neutral deity to manifest with the new quiddity, not an Evil one; much as Tiamat and Hel would prefer a new Evil ally, practicality takes precedence.

So, how do you set up a desperate underdog who won't just attach themselves to an existing pantheon, ensuring that they'll have that "we'll do it ourselves" nature to push for a successful manifestation of their deity, AND shape the new deity's alignment in the process?

[Laurentio III]

So, how do you set up a desperate underdog who won't just attach themselves to an existing pantheon, ensuring that they'll have that "we'll do it ourselves" nature to push for a successful manifestation of their deity, AND shape the new deity's alignment in the process?
By having a eminently evil setting where good races are the underdogs, struggling to survive the crudel monsters' empires.
So, a crap world.
As most gods are evil, they would enjoy the game. It's mostly a matter of avoiding to wipe away all good races.

[KorvinStarmast]

Roy fails, Xykon fails, the Snarl escapes, rocks fall (everyone dies) They gods do a steam punk world. TDO survives and gets a chance to be in on creation. The goblins end up being inventors and tinkerers, kind of like in Warcraft II.

Four quiddities.

The world goes on with no threat from the Snarl.

I don't think Rich is writing a sequel, so there you have it.

[brian 333]

Thor says most new gods don't survive the transition to the new world. We don't know how rarely such deities may arise, only that it is a rare occurrence.

However, if the entire elven pantheon rose in this world, as well as Dvalin, then deities rising from mortals is not as rare as we are lead to believe. On the other hand, if we are asking specifically about a new quiddity, that's another issue altogether.

It seems to me that the deciding factor in the development of a new quiddity is that the ascendent must actively reject the existing pantheons. Such a being must have followers who actively reject those pantheons.

The gods must create creatures which then hate them for the purposeful creation of a new quiddity. I don't think the good gods can do that.

[Laurentio III]

It seems to me that the deciding factor in the development of a new quiddity is that the ascendent must actively reject the existing pantheons. Such a being must have followers who actively reject those pantheons.
So narcisists, or resentful, or sociopatically loners.
Well...

It's very hard, but the good guys should play a masquerade and let their mortals to believe that the evil gods are in charge, and they are the resistance, so that the rebeling new god is by default a vigilant good.
Okay, I admit it sounds awful.

[littlebum2002]

Hey! I had this idea too!


An even better solution: reboot the world, but make a new law among the gods: every time the world is created anew, they need to create at least one species specifically for the purpose of being XP fodder, and 1/3rd of the gods instruct their followers that it's OK to kill them on sight. Meanwhile, instill a small sense of self-determination in them and also the tendency to follow the strongest individual around. Last, no deity is allowed to sponsor the deification of any member of these species. Eventually, a new version of TDO will arise from one of these species, and the gods can have a second (and, if necessary, third or forth) chance at capturing the snarl with a 4th quiddity. Heck, even after they get the 4th color, they could keep rebooting the world until a 5th one arises and then the snarl prison will be 100% unescapable.

Unfortunately, it was pointed out that this will lead to the suffering of untold number of creatures, which some good-aligned deities might have an issue with for some reason,

[Laurentio III]

Hey! I had this idea too!
Well, good.


Unfortunately, it was pointed out that this will lead to the suffering of untold number of creatures, which some good-aligned deities might have an issue with for some reason,
Err... like, I don't know, goblinoids? Because it would be hypocrital to care for the suffering of creatures while already causing the same suffering.

[brian 333]

Well, good.


Err... like, I don't know, goblinoids? Because it would be hypocrital to care for the suffering of creatures while already causing the same suffering.

Cause and effect are not the same. Fenris created the goblins as a strategy, and set them in opposition to the good aligned races. He then abandoned them. By that time, the good races already had attitudes and experiences dealing with them, and the deities reflect the belief of their worshippers.

It was not Thor's fault the goblins got the deal they got, nor that they had no deity to support them. In fact, the Good gods had nothing to do with it. But when Fenris abandoned the goblins he didn't get the blame for what he had done. Instead, the Good gods got blamed for not immediately fixing the problem Fenris had created.

The effect that the Good gods got blamed for was caused by Fenris.

[Laurentio III]

Cause and effect are not the same. Fenris created the goblins as a strategy, and set them in opposition to the good aligned races. He then abandoned them. By that time, the good races already had attitudes and experiences dealing with them, and the deities reflect the belief of their worshippers.

It was not Thor's fault the goblins got the deal they got, nor that they had no deity to support them. In fact, the Good gods had nothing to do with it. But when Fenris abandoned the goblins he didn't get the blame for what he had done. Instead, the Good gods got blamed for not immediately fixing the problem Fenris had created.

The effect that the Good gods got blamed for was caused by Fenris.
Redcloak tells a very different tale in Start of Darkness, learned by the Dark One himself, and indirectly confirmed by other gods.
You can have a different take, but goblinoids have been created as cannonfood on purpose. It's canon in OotSverse, unless there is a masquerade in progress held by every god in existance.

Sorry I can't link a source, it's in Start of Darkness, page 37.
I

[brian 333]

Perhaps, but Thor specifically says Fenris created goblins as a strategy and abandoned them. At the time of creation neither TDO or Redcloak was there, and Thor was.

The goblins may believe they were created as cannon fodder, but the ones who assert that as truth have an agenda that is advanced by that narrative. Goblins were not created by the Good gods, and therefore the Good gods could not have intended anything for them in their creation.

If Fenris created them as cannon fodder, their beef is with Fenris. Oddly, they seem to have no issue with their creator and patron deity.

[ZhonLord]

If Fenris created them as cannon fodder, their beef is with Fenris. Oddly, they seem to have no issue with their creator and patron deity.
They were not created as cannon fodder, but as a swarm tactic for belief-generation. The relevant lines from Page 1232 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html):


He has this dumb idea that if he makes people that age fast and breed a lot, they're going to outcompete all the other groups.... ....then he gets bored when they don't work out right away and turns all his attention to the more "fun" monsters.

This reads as Fenris going for a Zerg tactic, where sheer numbers make up for any other deficiencies they might have.

[Laurentio III]

They were not created as cannon fodder, but as a swarm tactic for belief-generation. The relevant lines from Page 1232 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1232.html)
Same page: "We didn't really plan it that way on purpose... but i guess we didn't really prevent it, either."

I get that it was unfortunate and I agree that the Dark One interpretation is "the single least charitable way to describe it", but still the goblinoids got the shorter stick and no god is going to do jack about it because, ultimately, it serves their goal. They could do much without divine intervention, like simply telling their followers to don't act against goblinoids without reason (incidentally, what the Dark One did). Saying that is sad but inevitable is the gods version of "white's privileges".

But, I recognize that two gods told dicotomic tales about goblinoids and we don't know who is right. Either Thor or the Dark One is wrong, and possibly both to a degree.
We don't know, and I'm not going to speculate in the dark. Let's go over it.

[Peelee]

I get that it was unfortunate and I agree that the Dark One interpretation is "the single least charitable way to describe it"

While I also agree, I have to note that there isn't much reason for The Dark One to be charitable.

[brian 333]

Same page: "We didn't really plan it that way on purpose... but i guess we didn't really prevent it, either."

I get that it was unfortunate and I agree that the Dark One interpretation is "the single least charitable way to describe it", but still the goblinoids got the shorter stick and no god is going to do jack about it because, ultimately, it serves their goal. They could do much without divine intervention, like simply telling their followers to don't act against goblinoids without reason (incidentally, what the Dark One did). Saying that is sad but inevitable is the gods version of "white's privileges".

But, I recognize that two gods told dicotomic tales about goblinoids and we don't know who is right. Either Thor or the Dark One is wrong, and possibly both to a degree.
We don't know, and I'm not going to speculate in the dark. Let's go over it.

But it is quite easy to tell who is right. TDOs version is self-serving and based on conclusions he came to without any evidence to support them. He is saying that the creation of the goblins was an intentional act designed to benefit the Good gods and their followers. He bases this on the fact that goblins are surrounded by enemies and have no divine support. Thor's version is that the creation of goblins was an act of a single deity for a singular purpose, and that when that purpose failed, the creator of the goblins abandoned them. Thor then goes on to admit that the Good gods, including himself, did nothing to prevent Fenris from doing what he did, and that perhaps they could have done something after the fact but did not.

Thor accepted responsibility, and admitted to having failed to clean up the mess his fellow deity created. This is hardly the same as being the cause of the situation.

TDO blames the gods, (with justice,) for the situation of the goblins, then accuses them, (without justice,) of having done it deliberately, and further uses that unjust accusation to justify extortion and war. Even after his mortal extortion scheme failed, he is doubling down and using a divine extortion scheme which will likely result in the extermination of every living goblinoid.

And if it proves that the narrative of the goblins being intentionally created as cannon fodder and intentionally being situated on the poorest lands is not true, what happens to his justification for his extortion scheme?

[Laurentio III]

But it is quite easy to tell who is right. [...] And if it proves that the narrative of the goblins being intentionally created as cannon fodder and intentionally being situated on the poorest lands is not true, what happens to his justification for his extortion scheme?
I agree with the facts, but Thor (I'll use him as the most prominent "good" god) is still guilty for inaction.
If can stop an evil act, if you have the means and the capacity, but you don't... well, you are guilty.
I get that Thor needs conflict, and it requires that some lower level monsters die so his followers can level up. Still, goblinoids lives a very difficult life, he could do something to alleviate it, and doesn't. So, he is in a advantaged position he never had to gain or defend, and he likes the status quo. It's called "privilege".
To say, he could tell his followers: "Dudes, if the challenge rating of your opponents is X (arbitrary number) lower that your personal level and you have no strict necessity, you are a coward and belong to Hel!".
Lower monsters would live a less unjust life, high level dwarf would have to search for worthy opponents, and the solution to the presence of goblins on the borders would be coaching first level adventures.
Sure, more low level dwarves would die, but it means a few higher level goblins who would add to the conflict.
All added, it's a gain for everyone in the sky and, incidentally, a lot less hypocrital.

Now, on topic, I re-re-reread the Dark One story (I've a awful memory, the reason I so often have to be corrected...). So, my theory that you can simply roll statistics until you get a winning goblin warlord is weak. The Dark One was not "a good goblin". He was apparently a mutant paragon-template goblin or similar. Born special with higher stats.
So while repeating the same world could work, you need to raise the "casual Captain Monster" chance one or two notches. The aim is that you get a potential "Big One" every couple of generation.

And, it probably wouldn't harm to do the same for all races. By all means, "The Lightest Elf" is probably more reasonable that an ascended goblin.

[brian 333]

Granted that all you say is true.

Why does Fenris get a pass? He created the goblins, set them against all the other races, and when they failed to achieve his goals he abandoned them.

If I plant a garden it is not my neighbor's responsibility to weed it, nor is it my neighbor's fault that the garden goes unharvested. In fact, my neighbor might be hesitant to interfere, thinking I might be resentful of help I never asked for.

I'm not saying that the Good gods do not have any responsibility for the current situation. I'm asking why the one who caused the situation is not held to any responsibility at all.

[Xirdus]

I think the gods made one crucial mistake regarding The Dark One. If Thor figured out he has 4th quiddity, at least half of the rest must've figured it out too... So why did they even try to hide the Snarl from him instead of trying to get him on board from day 1?

[Laurentio III]

I think the gods made one crucial mistake regarding The Dark One. If Thor figured out he has 4th quiddity, at least half of the rest must've figured it out too... So why did they even try to hide the Snarl from him instead of trying to get him on board from day 1?
Distrust, resignation, stupidity, fear of novelty?
Pick your one.


Why does Fenris get a pass?
Because we have lower expectations. {scrubbed} "not smart" ballpark.
Plus, he is probably evil or chaotic neutral at best.
While we can blame him for messing with his sons, I wouldn't expect him to care.
I know, it's wrong. But as Redcloak teaches, pointing the finger is not a problem solver.

[brian 333]

I think the gods made one crucial mistake regarding The Dark One. If Thor figured out he has 4th quiddity, at least half of the rest must've figured it out too... So why did they even try to hide the Snarl from him instead of trying to get him on board from day 1?

Maybe they assumed he wouldn't survive like the majority of previous ascended deities, or that he wouldn't get a level 17 cleric before the world ended.

Then along came The Scribblers who patched the rifts and gave the world an extra generation or two. Suddenly the impossible became what if?

[Metastachydium]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}


But it is quite easy to tell who is right. TDOs version is self-serving and based on conclusions he came to without any evidence to support them. He is saying that the creation of the goblins was an intentional act designed to benefit the Good gods and their followers. He bases this on the fact that goblins are surrounded by enemies and have no divine support. Thor's version is that the creation of goblins was an act of a single deity for a singular purpose, and that when that purpose failed, the creator of the goblins abandoned them. Thor then goes on to admit that the Good gods, including himself, did nothing to prevent Fenris from doing what he did, and that perhaps they could have done something after the fact but did not.

Thor accepted responsibility, and admitted to having failed to clean up the mess his fellow deity created. This is hardly the same as being the cause of the situation.

TDO blames the gods, (with justice,) for the situation of the goblins, then accuses them, (without justice,) of having done it deliberately, and further uses that unjust accusation to justify extortion and war. Even after his mortal extortion scheme failed, he is doubling down and using a divine extortion scheme which will likely result in the extermination of every living goblinoid.

And if it proves that the narrative of the goblins being intentionally created as cannon fodder and intentionally being situated on the poorest lands is not true, what happens to his justification for his extortion scheme?

Things might not be quite as clean-cut as that, though. For once, I'm not implying Thor's a dirty liar, but that doesn't mean Big Purple is one. I mean, yes, he appears to have extrapolated his conclusions from an incomplete set of data, but I can see how he could have reached them. I mean, the goblinoids were deliberately created as cannon fodder for the most part. The whole Zerg rush tactic does, in fact, assume that an insane number of disposable mooks will die horrible deaths. And if then the good gods tried to give him the same "we were building an ecosystem" equine faeces that Thor threw at Durkon…

I'm not saying his reading of the whole state of affairs is correct, of course, but I think a case can be made, and with ease, for this reading being a product of (partial) ignorance, rather than malice, which would make for a pretty neat little symmetry there.


Why does Fenris get a pass? He created the goblins, set them against all the other races, and when they failed to achieve his goals he abandoned them.

If I plant a garden it is not my neighbor's responsibility to weed it, nor is it my neighbor's fault that the garden goes unharvested. In fact, my neighbor might be hesitant to interfere, thinking I might be resentful of help I never asked for.

I'm not saying that the Good gods do not have any responsibility for the current situation. I'm asking why the one who caused the situation is not held to any responsibility at all.

More than fair; the analogy, nevertheless misses the mark. Parental abuse and neglect (and the neighbour's tacit tolerance for that) would, perhaps, be more fitting parallels.

[brian 333]

I disagree with the parental analogy. The gods grow, harvest, and consume mortals. That is their deliberate purpose in creating the worlds. At best we're talking about livestock.

[Laurentio III]

I disagree with the parental analogy. The gods grow, harvest, and consume mortals. That is their deliberate purpose in creating the worlds. At best we're talking about livestock.
"Did you look at your neighbor farm? All his chickens are running free! He never feed them and doesn't keep them in the coop, so they are starving half the time and eating the crops when they can!"
"I know. He is a very bad farmer."
"Why don't you do something about it?"
"My dogs enjoy killing the runnaway chickens and I don't even have to feed them anymore."

[Metastachydium]

I disagree with the parental analogy. The gods grow, harvest, and consume mortals. That is their deliberate purpose in creating the worlds. At best we're talking about livestock.


Well, livestock that many of them develop a strong emotional attachment for and that they just let live as long as they can manage and which they only consume when they are already dead anyway (not counting all the instances when they enable restoring them to life, sometimes repeatedly). Not to mention that yes:


"Did you look at your neighbor farm? All his chickens are running free! He never feed them and doesn't keep them in the coop, so they are starving half the time and eating the crops when they can!"
"I know. He is a very bad farmer."
"Why don't you do something about it?"
"My dogs enjoy killing the runnaway chickens and I don't even have to feed them anymore."

They actively profit from the misfortune of those abandoned (since they eat the "dogs" that ate the "chickens" and thus developed better nutritional values).

[brian 333]

So, milk cows?

[Laurentio III]

So, milk cows?
The point is, privilege.
Thor (still as a rappresentative of "good" gods, as we don't know much of the others) receive an important advantage from Fenris poor management. He didn't asked for, but he deems it useful, even necessary to his own life.
So goblinoids are wasted every day and he gets the benefits, while the blame is on Fenris.

Let's say one incarnation Fenris doesn't create low level zerg critters and jumps to kaiju bears. What is Thor going to do? Keep his clerics underleveled? Give them a couple of levels for roleplaying?
The least he could do is sending his followers against animals. There are plenty, they are a reasonable Challenge Rating, and they are tasty. But, they don't drop valuables.
Otherwise, he'd have to create his own breed of exp-givers.

On the opposite side, what does Thor for goblinoids? Nothing. Could he? Sure.
He could make the right amount of rain on their farms. He could tell his followers to fight them honorably. He could propose the issue inside his pantheon. And more important, as they were almost godless (Fenris is a deadbeat father), he could spare a couple minutes a day to check how they are going. Even if, I think Loki would be a better fit for this.
Instead, he just shrug his shoulders and the very first time he sees a goblin god, he tries to murder him.

My point is, saying "It's unfortunate for them but it's not my fault" is an evil, neutral stand at best. Thor is supposed to be GOOD in this setting.
(Mythological Thor would be a lot different and possibly more fitting in this situation. He would kick goblinoids in the trash every day of the week, twice on his day)

OOT: thanks for this discussion. It's more than I hoped from the thread.

[brian 333]

I think what you may be doing here is assuming motives not in evidence. The Good gods, according to your theory, intentionally abuse the goblins because they profit from doing so. If that is the case, it is reprehensible and all of the rest of your arguments follow logically.

But that is not what happened.

Fenris created the goblins and tried to zerg-rush everyone else. When that failed he abandoned the goblins. By that time, the goblins had established themselves as everyone's enemies! Except in at least one, possibly more, case they remained hostile to everyone.

They, in fact, tried to gain concessions of land and resources by building the biggest army ever assembled and threatened to use it if they were not given what they wanted. And everyone was supposed to believe them when they said, "But we won't use this army if you give us what we want "

What assurances did they offer that there wouldn't be further demands and even more, while the goblins grew to numbers so great the region couldn't sustain them and war happened anyway?

So, the gods did not assume responsibility for cleaning up the mess another god made. Further, they allowed their minions to prevent that mess from spreading. As opposed to allowing the beings they did create to be overwhelmed by the mess.

Your presumption falls apart in the face of the facts. What, exactly, were the Good gods supposed to do? Let their own creations be wiped out to make up for Fenris' mistake?

You assume the Good gods can do a thing, and therefore should do it because it is the right thing to do. But you refuse to think through the simplest consequences of doing that. Sometimes what seems like justice turns out to be worse than what there was before.

[Laurentio III]

Fenris does it every single fantasy world they make.
At one point, if they wanted to something they had a plethora of opportunities.
I proposed a few things they could do to make the life of goblinoids less painful.
If there is nothing more, I assume we are done.

[brian 333]

Fenris does it every single fantasy world they make.
At one point, if they wanted to something they had a plethora of opportunities.
I proposed a few things they could do to make the life of goblinoids less painful.
If there is nothing more, I assume we are done.

Yes, you said what they could have done, handwaved away any potential negative consequences, and asserted that it should have been done.

What you have failed to show is, why they should have been the ones to do it, at the expense of their chosen races, when the entity responsible for the goblin's situation gets a free pass.

So, yeah, if we're ignoring the arguments we don't like, I guess we're done.

[Reboot]

Redcloak tells a very different tale in Start of Darkness, learned by the Dark One himself, and indirectly confirmed by other gods.
You can have a different take, but goblinoids have been created as cannonfood on purpose. It's canon in OotSverse, unless there is a masquerade in progress held by every god in existance.

Sorry I can't link a source, it's in Start of Darkness, page 37.
I

Redcloak's version is clearly wrong, from what we know now, in several respects. For one thing, it assumes the world was created, a bunch of Lv 1 clerics (and other classes) were created, then SOME TIME LATER they realised their clerics couldn't level up and created the goblins & other "monster" races. And that's before you consider that this isn't World 2, it's World 2 BILLION and all the bugs like that have been long sorted out.

Unless you assume that everything Thor said (including the bits Loki & Hel essentially backed up) is a straight-up lie and TDO knows all about this stuff.

[Laurentio III]

Yes, you said what they could have done, handwaved away any potential negative consequences, and asserted that it should have been done.
I'm not handwaving anything. Actually, I didn't even discussed in details because there would be a lot of details and it would be a wall of text.
My point is not "they have to do this", but "To say, they could have done this". My impression is that they didn't even try.
I agreed on everything else.

Brian 333. I know this is unexpected on the internet, but I'm not going to try to "win" an argument. The only point I'm firm in, is that "the good gods are not acting good".

Fenris is to blame? I agreed, even if I don't think it's important. Fenris is evil, and possibly not smart, and for sure uncaring. While it's not right, when someone is irresponsable, others have to pick the up his mess and clean.

Redcloak is wrong? I agreed, the Dark One is telling his version and it's prejudiced. Honestly? I understand his view. In his armored pants, I'd feel the same. Still wrong, sure.

The good gods should leave the monsters brakeless? I never answered to this. So... yes, for it would probably never matter in the long play. Goblinoids have no high level leader that can match the high level adventurers of othr race. Their obstacles are the age (they die sooner), infights (always evil races means less cooperation) and racism (goblinoids are less likely to receive assistance from high level characters of other races like, to say one, spell exchange).
In all the history of goblinkind there are two exceptional individuals: Redcloak, who is a cheat as his mantle protects him from old age, and the Dark One himself, who is apparently a paragon-template or similar. Right-Eye, who could one-shot treants, was clearly strong but not at their level.
Now, the new goblin city is militarly strong, but as who played D&D knows, a group of adventurers could reconquer it as a quest in a matter of days. Scry-and-die applies to armies, too. We have seen vampire Durkon enter the most protected dwarven stronghold almost effortlessly. He failed only because he fought another party of adventurers (and his inner self).

Short version (see, that is the reason I don't like long explaining) the fall of Azure City is an exceptional event lead by two unique villains, not something any army of goblinoids could have obtained otherwise. Without Xykon and Redcloak, they would have stayed in their fortified city waiting for some random party to rain dead from the sky for laughs.
So: should Thor be wary of the goblinoid because they could wipe other races? I think it's highly unlikely.


Unless you assume that everything Thor said (including the bits Loki & Hel essentially backed up) is a straight-up lie and TDO knows all about this stuff.
No, it's clear that the Dark One is looking from a peculiar angle. Mind, there are reasons for this. Gods can confortably think of mortals as statistics - Thor is the only one that ever expressed any sentiment toward his followers, and it was in passing - while the Dark One, born mortal and in his godly infancy, has a more mundane point of view.

[The MunchKING]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{scrubbed}


And what everyone is overlooking is the other thing it took to get a new God. Blood. A continent's worth of death and slaughter consecrated in the Unholy Name of the Dark One. If the Gods aren't willing to risk Genocide on several sentient species, they aren't playing to get a new quiddity.

[Laurentio III]

And what everyone is overlooking is the other thing it took to get a new God. Blood. A continent's worth of death and slaughter consecrated in the Unholy Name of the Dark One. If the Gods aren't willing to risk Genocide on several sentient species, they aren't playing to get a new quiddity.
I'd assume that "soul" is more important than blood, here. {scrubbed}

[ZhonLord]

And what everyone is overlooking is the other thing it took to get a new God. Blood. A continent's worth of death and slaughter consecrated in the Unholy Name of the Dark One. If the Gods aren't willing to risk Genocide on several sentient species, they aren't playing to get a new quiddity.

Well, speaking as a Neutral god, if we go with Operation "zerg-like good guys as underdogs in a world of evil", then the bloody battle of conquest would instead become a rise to glory and a naturally occurring transition into a world of good just people as the majority, all with a shining new-color pantheon to light their way, a paragon of virtue and hope whom the gods can then negotiate with to finally make 4-color Gates.

[brian 333]

Emergent properties are so hard to predict and control. We've all seen what happens when robots become self aware. Do we really want to create more gods?

[ZhonLord]

Emergent properties are so hard to predict and control. We've all seen what happens when robots become self aware. Do we really want to create more gods?

If we want a new quiddity so we can seal the snarl permanently, after the Dark One starves between creations, yes.

[brian 333]

If we want a new quiddity so we can seal the snarl permanently, after the Dark One starves between creations, yes.

That's what they said right before Skynet went online...

[ZhonLord]

That's what they said right before Skynet went online...
I'm aware, but even so the gods would be creating a new equal rather than something that could surpass them. Plus with the way belief has to be accumulated, a new god would be very weak by comparison. It would be easy to snuff out a newcomer as Thor tried to do to the Dark One, and no matter how long they exist they can't obtain enough power to be a personal threat when the other gods have multiple worlds' worth of energy saved up. It would take an "entire species genocide" like what Hel tried, to get enough power.

Therefore a skynet scenario is impossible as far as the gods are concerned. The precautions against it are already inherent to their situation.

[brian 333]

I'm aware, but even so the gods would be creating a new equal rather than something that could surpass them. Plus with the way belief has to be accumulated, a new god would be very weak by comparison. It would be easy to snuff out a newcomer as Thor tried to do to the Dark One, and no matter how long they exist they can't obtain enough power to be a personal threat when the other gods have multiple worlds' worth of energy saved up. It would take an "entire species genocide" like what Hel tried, to get enough power.

Therefore a skynet scenario is impossible as far as the gods are concerned. The precautions against it are already inherent to their situation.

And yet, TDO is proving this all wrong. His goblins will now grow and expand into every other species territory, successfully accomplishing the Zerg rush abandoned by Fenris. The only hope the gods have is to end the world now!

[The MunchKING]

I'd assume that "soul" is more important than blood, here. {scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I was being dramatic, but yes, the point is you need a LOT of souls, in a relatively short time, all devoted to the new god-to-be. (Thus not going to other people)


Well, speaking as a Neutral god, if we go with Operation "zerg-like good guys as underdogs in a world of evil", then the bloody battle of conquest would instead become a rise to glory and a naturally occurring transition into a world of good just people as the majority, all with a shining new-color pantheon to light their way, a paragon of virtue and hope whom the gods can then negotiate with to finally make 4-color Gates.

A) Only if that works...

B) Even if you got a new God out of it, they won't convert the world to Good, any more than the Dark One has managed to convert Stickworld to Evil. There are more "others" than there are Zerg-race, and assuming roughly equal technology, they can band together in the face of opposition.

C) They need a unifying force behind one guy to dump all the souls on. Regular Zerg-rush won't work if you don't have a leader to take all those souls and be the new god. And attempts to boost the likelihood of a new leader, would also risk them fragmenting into lots of tribes with their own leaders and not unifying enough to slaughter enough in the name of one guy to make it work.


It would be easy to snuff out a newcomer as Thor tried to do to the Dark One, and no matter how long they exist they can't obtain enough power to be a personal threat when the other gods have multiple worlds' worth of energy saved up.

They don't, is the problem. Or at least not in any sense that can be utilized against an external threat. Thor said they burn off a lot of it waiting for the Snarl to calm down, and Rich said the only time they could have stopped the Dark One was when he was new and had used up all his "soul energy". Once he started getting on a proper Godly Diet, he was too powerful for them to murder.

[Laurentio III]

C) They need a unifying force behind one guy to dump all the souls on. Regular Zerg-rush won't work if you don't have a leader to take all those souls and be the new god. And attempts to boost the likelihood of a new leader, would also risk them fragmenting into lots of tribes with their own leaders and not unifying enough to slaughter enough in the name of one guy to make it work.
This is mayor point. If Redcloak tales is corrrect, the Dark One was some kind of mutant. Having superpowers AND a very distinctive look is a big factor in raising a blood religion.

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Please remember that mythological religions are still real-world religions and count under the blanket religious discussion rules.

[ZhonLord]

This is mayor point. If Redcloak tales is corrrect, the Dark One was some kind of mutant. Having superpowers AND a very distinctive look is a big factor in raising a blood religion.

Hmm....bis there potentially a way to encourage that without it being treated as an endorsement, which also doesn't create a group of such who then compete with each other?

[Laurentio III]

Hmm....bis there potentially a way to encourage that without it being treated as an endorsement, which also doesn't create a group of such who then compete with each other?
Parsed time.
A "Dark One Special" every ten-fifty years, based on race's max age. By the time the new one arise, the previous is dead, or old and failed, or successed.
You can have more than one if they are very unlikely to ever ally. At best they fight each the other, and it's desiderable.

[ZhonLord]

Parsed time.
A "Dark One Special" every ten-fifty years, based on race's max age. By the time the new one arise, the previous is dead, or old and failed, or successed.
You can have more than one if they are very unlikely to ever ally. At best they fight each the other, and it's desiderable.

Alright, so we have:
1. Zerg rush tactics that generate accelerated amounts of Belief/Worship during life and Dedications upon death, plus many extra Souls in the afterlife.

2. Underdog good guys in a continent dominated by evil beings (not the whole world, as we've discussed the Good and Neutral pantheons taking serious issue with that) so that they have the determination and will to stand on their own without depending on the other pantheons but are unlikely to make a "nuke the world" god.

3. A regularly occurring mutation that happens once every 1-2 generations, creating a "chosen one" of considerable power and charisma so that the worshippers have someone to rally their belief around and potentially ascend to godhood.

4. Readiness to kill the newly formed god and try again if they DO turn out to be evil aligned or otherwise cruel or unstable, before they can recharge from what was expended during their ascension. If we can get it to happen twice, we can get 3 times.

Which brings us to the problem of the interim period before ascension.

Problem 1) the Dark One took a couple thousand years in this world to happen. In the meantime, Snarl Rifts nearly destroyed the world right before the miracle occurred. The Gates developed by Dorukan were an excellent delaying tactic, but this was presumably the first time such were developed. How do we, as the Gods, encourage a new round of such Gates in the next world so that we don't risk having to terminate the experiment early?

Problem 2) presumably the previous Zerg attempts by Fenris failed due to a variety of factors. How do we ensure these new attempts survive the "maturation period" in and of themselves, without our intervention causing a change in their focus of worship so that a new god joins an existing pantheon instead of tapping into new quiddity? Endorsement must be avoided if this is to succeed.

Problem 3) do we, or do we not, include self awareness in the next world? There's a lot to be said for its value, based on what's occurred in stick world, but there's also the potential drawback of recognizing oneself as soul fodder.

[Reboot]

Problem 1) the Dark One took a couple thousand years in this world to happen. In the meantime, Snarl Rifts nearly destroyed the world right before the miracle occurred. The Gates developed by Dorukan were an excellent delaying tactic, but this was presumably the first time such were developed. How do we, as the Gods, encourage a new round of such Gates in the next world so that we don't risk having to terminate the experiment early?

Stick the Create Gate spell on the standard cleric spell list next time around, and do something similar for arcane casters (maybe don't even have wizards, just something similar to clerics in terms of spell acquisiton, but using arcane magic)

[The MunchKING]

Stick the Create Gate spell on the standard cleric spell list next time around, and do something similar for arcane casters (maybe don't even have wizards, just something similar to clerics in terms of spell acquisiton, but using arcane magic)

I don't even think the Gods knew about Gates or how to make them, according to a wizened old man dispensing valuable plot points (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html). Thier ideas for fixing the Rifts needed the reality strands that were currently being used to make the world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).

[Laurentio III]

I don't even think the Gods knew about Gates or how to make them, according to a wizened old man dispensing valuable plot points (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html). Thier ideas for fixing the Rifts needed the reality strands that were currently being used to make the world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html).
We don't even know if the gods value the gates. They kept durable world up to millennias, and they understand the possibility of patching a rift without unmaking the world (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html). The problem is that the patches would be weak and, eventually, the Snarl wins.
The gate lasted what? Decades? Not even a small "tick tock" on gods' clocks. Nothing to write home for.
Actually, gates seems to be a problem to them, because those allow to move a rift.

[hamishspence]

Isn't the only way to properly patch a rift, by using 4 colors? Thor seems to think so:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html

[Laurentio III]

Isn't the only way to properly patch a rift, by using 4 colors? Thor seems to think so:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1142.html
Yes it is. As I said, it would be weak and not much effective.

But my point is: the gates are nothing special for the gods. They lasted a few decades before the mortals started exploding them. Not much compared to the millenia of the recent world. And, even if they last centuries, new rifts are bound to appear anyway.
On the opposite side, a gate allows for rift trasportation, which is bad news.
So, the question: "Do gods know how to make a gate?" is (in my opinion) "Possibly yes, but wouldn't do them."

Now, let's say the gods start making gates. For sure, they could make them sturdier that the mortal ones, and they can put them inside real defences like towers of diamonds.
Then, what? The Snarl open a new rift, the gods make a new gate. Rince and repeat, until the whole world is covered in giant diamonds.
Not really a win.

[brian 333]

Yes it is. As I said, it would be weak and not much effective.

But my point is: the gates are nothing special for the gods. They lasted a few decades before the mortals started exploding them. Not much compared to the millenia of the recent world. And, even if they last centuries, new rifts are bound to appear anyway.
On the opposite side, a gate allows for rift trasportation, which is bad news.
So, the question: "Do gods know how to make a gate?" is (in my opinion) "Possibly yes, but wouldn't do them."

Now, let's say the gods start making gates. For sure, they could make them sturdier that the mortal ones, and they can put them inside real defences like towers of diamonds.
Then, what? The Snarl open a new rift, the gods make a new gate. Rince and repeat, until the whole world is covered in giant diamonds.
Not really a win.

Every generation longer is a win, especially for TDO. Hel may even benefit if she ever gets her act together and gets some undead clerics capable of spawning new clerics faster than adventurers can convert them to exp.

The trick isn't the gates. That's easy, but limited in effectiveness on a global time scale. As noted, eventually there will be need for more patches.

The trick is to have TDO strong enough to survive the world's unmaking so that he can contribute a fourth quiddity in the construction of the next world. (A color The Snarl does not have.) Every generation that can be bought with short term patching increases the chance that their next Snarl Prison is the last one they will ever need.