explain to me why a Hexadin is good

[srkinguim]

But with ONE condition. Character is at most level 15.

[PhantomSoul]

SAD on top of all the goodies the absurdly front-loaded classes/subclasses give you

[Waazraath]

SAD + extra slots for smiting that recharge on a short rest + lots of build options due to variaty of infusions, spells and available feats (because SAD).

[Hael]

Paladins provide a great defensive chassis as well as significant nova abilities. Warlocks provide SADness, a ranged attack, extremely strong Gish spells, self advantage, recharging spell slots.

Hexadins are one of the few combos in the game that can make a critfishing build work, and in general they hit like a truck if you build them like a 2h Pamlock.

They are particularly deadly in tier3, so thats perfect.

[srkinguim]

Paladins provide a great defensive chassis as well as significant nova abilities. Warlocks provide SADness, a ranged attack, extremely strong Gish spells, self advantage, recharging spell slots.

Hexadins are one of the few combos in the game that can make a critfishing build work, and in general they hit like a truck if you build them like a 2h Pamlock.

They are particularly deadly in tier3, so thats perfect.

Could you tell me this build in more detail? (I'm a bit newbie with multiclassing)

[LudicSavant]

But with ONE condition. Character is at most level 15.

Just one level of Hexblade on a Paladin gives you...

- Cha-SAD saves you up to 2 ASIs + lets you have a better starting statline.
- Hexblade's Curse is effective damage scaling.
- 2 cantrips and 1 extra slot per short rest (3 over the course of a standard adventuring day) for just 1 level.
- Eldritch Blast gives a reliable ranged backup option (and synergizes with HBC).
- Can learn key spells like Shield, AoA, or HR.

That's an awful lot of nice things for 1 level.

[Eldariel]

Take two-three levels of Hexblade and rest in Paladin or take 6 levels in Paladin and rest in Hexblade depending on what you want to prioritise. Paladin 2/Warlock 13 is playable too (since Warlock gets Extra Attack and such from Invocations) but it's kinda waste to not get at least level 2 slots from the Paladin progression alongside Aura of Protection, since Pact Magic and normal slots actually stack and Aura of Protection is the big money ability from Paladin.

I generally prefer Sorlockadin: Sorcerer and Warlock combine so superbly (you just need 1-3 levels of Warlock, 6 of Paladin and then go rest in Sorcerer): Warlock slots for charging metamagic, Quicken Spell to cast + fight, great saves, solid attacks, plenty of slots, it's just overall quite superb. You won't have the high level invocations but those aren't really that impressive in any case. And you'll have lots of slots and neat tricks and full Cha SADness. If you wanna use GWM/PAM you do need 3 levels of Warlock though. 2 levels of Warlock gets you competitive Eldritch Blast as a long range option, and cantrips are nice for combining with bonus action spells too.


Pal 6/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 8 is pretty solid or Pal 6/Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 7 for invocations. Though obviously, being that one level off 5th level spells is kinda sad since e.g. Clockwork Soul could get Wall of Force. But it does mean extreme smitiness, lots of slots, efficient action economy, great defenses and very solid offense, etc.

[J-H]

It has Big Numbers.

That's about it. It's thematically a mess and not a build that will ever see play at any table I DM.

[LudicSavant]

It's thematically a mess

I'd say that's entirely up to the writing/roleplaying ability of the player.

A good writer can create a strong justification for any multiclass combination.

[KorvinStarmast]

SAD + extra slots for smiting that recharge on a short rest + lots of build options due to variety of infusions, spells and available feats (because SAD). SAD is the attraction.

Just one level of Hexblade on a Paladin gives you...

- Cha-SAD saves you up to 2 ASIs + lets you have a better starting statline.
- Hexblade's Curse is effective damage scaling.
- 2 extra slots per short rest (6 over the course of a standard adventuring day) for just 1 level.
At level 1, it's one extra slot per short rest. With a two level dip you get two slots per short rest. :smallwink:

- Eldritch Blast gives a reliable ranged backup option (and synergizes with HBC).
- Can learn key spells like Shield, AoA, or HR. Yes indeed. (I didn't realize that shield is a warlock spell, is that a Tasha's addition?)

At level 15, one can have Paladin 13 / Warlock 2 - which means 4th level Paladin spells are available.

[LudicSavant]

At level 1, it's one extra slot per short rest.

Whoops! Was originally writing about level 2 and forgot to revise that part of the post. Thanks for the catch; corrected the post.

[diplomancer]

SAD is the attraction.

At level 1, it's one extra slot per short rest. With a two level dip you get two slots per short rest. :smallwink:
Yes indeed. (I didn't realize that shield is a warlock spell, is that a Tasha's addition?).

It's a patron spell for Hexblades; which might be the single worst decision ever taken on 5e, since it's pretty bad for an actual warlock, but crazy good for a Paladin or Bard dip.

[Millstone85]

It's thematically a mess
I'd say that's entirely up to the writing/roleplaying ability of the player.

A good writer can create a strong justification for any multiclass combination.You can start by completely ignoring the lore of the Hexblade patron, because even by itself it is already a mess.

Instead, let the hexadin reflavor the subclass after any of the other patrons.

Ideas for conflict-free combos:

Oath of Devotion / The Celestial
Oath of the Ancients / The Archfey
Oath of Glory / The Genie
Oath of Conquest / The Fiend
Oathbreaker / The Undead

Ideas for conflict-using combos:

Oath of Redemption / a patron you regret having traded with
Oath of the Watchers / an extraplanar threat that changed you

[Selion]

But with ONE condition. Character is at most level 15.

A better question would be "at what levels hexadin is better than paladin"?
The problem with multiclassing in 5e is that they do remove weaknesses in single classes (For example giving survivability to spellcasters and Sadness to paladins), usually IMHO these weaknesses are covered by other party members. Most parties are better with a 5th level wizard casting fireball or hypnotic pattern than a indestructible 5th level wizard in second line stuck with 2nd level spells.

Going back to your original question... i think that at level 15 hexadin is better than a paladin, main difference being +1 to aura, attacks and spells DC, a powerful ranged option (EB) at the price of 15th level Oath feature.
At level 13, though, i would gladly renounce to those bonuses to ride a pegasus, same thing at level 17, is +1 to aura and EB better than raise dead and hold monsters? i don't think so.

Edit: i read something about how thematically the two classes mix. I could see a witch knight, raised in a forest by dark energies from the feywild, swearing a oath to a powerful dark fey, or simply a paladin of the raven queen gifted with the hexblade pact. The thing is that if in 10 tables i see at least 8 hexblade dips, the theme becomes inflated and all character thematical build is lost under "hexblade as usual"
It's a shame because as a single class (no dip) the hexblade is one of my favorite subclasses.

[OldTrees1]

But with ONE condition. Character is at most level 15.

Hey, have you ever wanted to play a Paladin, but wished you could cast your spells at-will? You can't do that, but with a 2:1 ratio of Paladin and Warlock you can have the next best thing. Forget the 15 minute adventure day. Forget the 8 hour adventure day. Your party of constantly inspired fully healed allies can keep going and going and going. Not even death can slow them down because you have infinite revivify.

Have you ever had an idea of a character with a nuanced relationship with a higher power? Maybe you are a devoted servant. Maybe you are an idealist under eldritch influences. Come on down to Padlock, we are basically demanding your creativity and expression.

/sales pitch mode


Serious, I wanted to play an idealist protector with passive or at-will abilities and was interested by the idea of idealism twisted by outside influences. It is a fun design space and broader than it initially appears (Many are mentioning dips but a 2:1 ratio works fine too).

I suggest Paladin 2 / Warlock 1 / Paladin +4 / Warlock +2 / Paladin +3 / (Warlock +2 / Paladin +4) repeat

[Hael]

As you can see, there are a lot of different builds you can make with this thing. Its a very flexible chassis.

A couple suggestions. Decide your weapon choice first. Are you ranged/EB or melee 1h/2h?
How many short rests are you expecting. The more SRs you get, the more warlock you want.

Are you going for more sustained or nova? Are you interested in castery spells like hypnotic pattern or is this mostly melee damage.

Try to get your action economy set. Eg shield as a reaction, melee attack action, BA polearm master/ hexcurse or perhaps you want to leave that free for specific options like misty step..

The big advantage for Hexadins is the Sadness, so builds that are normally too feat intensive for paladins (like EA/PAM/GWM) become possible without sacrificing too much.

[animorte]

But with ONE condition. Character is at most level 15.

One level of Hexblade is so front loaded, you’re pretty solid for a while, no matter how you choose to progress. Naturally there are more optimal ways than others.

[LudicSavant]

You can start by completely ignoring the lore of the Hexblade patron, because even by itself it is already a mess.

Yep, that's definitely step 1 :smallbiggrin:

[Dork_Forge]

IMO it isn't particularly, the attraction is focusing on Charisma allowing your weapons and spells to progress together. What is tossed around a lot, including in this thread, is the false notion that they're SAD. They really aren't, you'll need 13 Str to MC out of (or into) Paladin, that's not enough to avoid a speed penalty with plate, you you'll probably want Str 15. The alternative is going medium armor and having a Str score that does basically nothing for you. Either way a Hexadin is going to need moderate secondary stats, unlike an actually SAD character like a Rogue or Dex-based Fighter.

[Skrum]

IMO it isn't particularly, the attraction is focusing on Charisma allowing your weapons and spells to progress together. What is tossed around a lot, including in this thread, is the false notion that they're SAD. They really aren't, you'll need 13 Str to MC out of (or into) Paladin, that's not enough to avoid a speed penalty with plate, you you'll probably want Str 15. The alternative is going medium armor and having a Str score that does basically nothing for you. Either way a Hexadin is going to need moderate secondary stats, unlike an actually SAD character like a Rogue or Dex-based Fighter.

They're pretty SAD. They need some Str, but they no longer need to maximize two stats. As you say, 15 is plenty of Str.

Hexadins are, for my money, the best character build through T2. I'm assuming full casters pass them heading into T3.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Most of the other stuff is a trade off, but here's why the SAD part (which you get for only 1 level of Hexblade if that's where you want to stop) is awesome, particularly as you level.

1st, you can start with a Str 15 vs pretty much full class Palys that would start with 16. That allows you another point to put somewhere else, probably into Con. Potentially it allows you to start with a 16 Con vs a 14/15, which means another HP per level and better Con/ concentration saves.

2nd, as you level full classes have difficult decisions to make. Paly abilities are pretty well split between Chr and Str, so it's very late game by the time you max them both, and that's at the expense of Feats if you go that route. With a Hexadin, you don't have that problem. 2 ASIs (or 1 ASI and a 1/2 Feat like Fey Touched if you start with Chr 17) and you could be maxed on everything you do by level 9 (Paly 8/ Hex 1).

Yes, you can go through level by level and figure out if the 2 low level slots (often used as Smites) and ranged cantrip you get for Hex are worth it for whatever you would have got for the Paly level. Sometimes it'd be worth it; sometimes not, and it's likely table and session dependent. But effectively getting 2+ free ASIs are priceless.

[Pex]

It has Big Numbers.

That's about it. It's thematically a mess and not a build that will ever see play at any table I DM.

A paladin who claims to be the Weapon of Justice/Vengeance literally and figuratively.

[bid]

What is tossed around a lot, including in this thread, is the false notion that they're SAD. They really aren't, you'll need 13 Str to MC out of (or into) Paladin, that's not enough to avoid a speed penalty with plate, you you'll probably want Str 15.
SAD is more about where you spend your ASI, IMHO.
Take monk that wants Dex20 to hit and Wis20 to stun.

But yeah, you'll prolly spend an ASI going Str13 -> Str15 if your staring stats were too tight.

[Dork_Forge]

They're pretty SAD. They need some Str, but they no longer need to maximize two stats. As you say, 15 is plenty of Str.

Hexadins are, for my money, the best character build through T2. I'm assuming full casters pass them heading into T3.

I'm feeling a significant amount of disconnect, do people associate SAD primarily with just not needing to bump a stat after character creation?

That's... not what SAD means, at least not to me, if you need a stat other than your primary (with a caveat here for some Con), then you are not SAD.

Why are they the best through T2? By dipping you're just delaying all of the key features, outside ofboss battles with a single big bad you'd be consistently behind a straight Paladin.

[tiornys]

It's a patron spell for Hexblades; which might be the single worst decision ever taken on 5e, since it's pretty bad for an actual warlock, but crazy good for a Paladin or Bard dip.
A straight Hexblade is well advised to have Arcana proficiency to let them scribe scrolls of Shield. Also a DM that won't throw up too many barriers against using scrolls of Shield.

[Leon]

That's about it. It's thematically a mess

Its no less or greater mess than any other Multiclass choice is.
Hexblade is in my opinion the most flexible as there is so little detail about what actually is "powering" the warlock that you can theme it in pretty much any way you want. In a game with one who has no idea what is giving them their powers and part of their story is trying to find out what is.

[Witty Username]

Why are they the best through T2? By dipping you're just delaying all of the key features, outside ofboss battles with a single big bad you'd be consistently behind a straight Paladin.

Yeah, that matches some of my thinking on the matter.

The ideal combo of levels feels like hexblade 2/Paladin 6. Which is near the end of Tier 2. For the first half ish your not gaining as much from the SAD shift and delaying aura of protection. I would recommend holding of heblade until 7th level for the optimal gains, 8th or 9th also have arguments with ASIs and subclass features depending on specific needs. This pushes hex paladin into T3 personally. That being said I have not seen a hex paladin in actual play, paladin, hexblade and hex bard but not specifically hex paladin.

[Schwann145]

Its no less or greater mess than any other Multiclass choice is.
Hexblade is in my opinion the most flexible as there is so little detail about what actually is "powering" the warlock that you can theme it in pretty much any way you want. In a game with one who has no idea what is giving them their powers and part of their story is trying to find out what is.

It gets messy if you actually care about the lore of how a Warlock works.
You're not just getting free powers from somewhere. You're making a pact with an entity who then, in return for your pact, grants you power. But with a Paladin, you're assumed to be already doing that. The force that is granting you your Paladin abilities will naturally be at odds with whatever force is granting you your Warlock abilities. Even if they share a nature (ie: both goodly forces or whatever) they'll still likely not have the same desires and motivations for your character, and you can't split loyalties without things getting ugly fast.

Now, if you don't give a hoot about intrinsic class lore/assumptions, then obviously none of the above applies. But it's the default assumption to work with.

[Leon]

It gets messy if you actually care about the lore of how a Warlock works.
You're not just getting free powers from somewhere. You're making a pact with an entity who then, in return for your pact, grants you power. But with a Paladin, you're assumed to be already doing that. The force that is granting you your Paladin abilities will naturally be at odds with whatever force is granting you your Warlock abilities. Even if they share a nature (ie: both goodly forces or whatever) they'll still likely not have the same desires and motivations for your character, and you can't split loyalties without things getting ugly fast.

Now, if you don't give a hoot about intrinsic class lore/assumptions, then obviously none of the above applies. But it's the default assumption to work with.

Paladins are even more vague as to what powers them beyond belief in their cause and the oaths they hold to it, you may choose that a deity or entity grants it but its not a given that is the case.

[Witty Username]

It gets messy if you actually care about the lore of how a Warlock works.
You're not just getting free powers from somewhere. You're making a pact with an entity who then, in return for your pact, grants you power.

YMMV, I have heard people argue all sorts of things like that warlocks aren't required to have a specific pact with their patron or that the powers gained are now innate to the warlock without obligations to maintain. I don't agree but I have heard the claims.
I think hexblade is weird given the Raven Queen, and undead plane of shadow vibes but not insurmountable, and works alright with Conquest paladin. If your willing to ignore the specter and use the generic sentient weapon read it becomes much more forgiving.

[Hael]

Yeah, that matches some of my thinking on the matter.

The ideal combo of levels feels like hexblade 2/Paladin 6.

If you are going the Paladin route, the majority of builds actually just go Pal 6 first, before even taking hexblade, so you basically *are* a paladin for at least a few lvls of tier2. Its really lvl 5 and 6 where there is a power disparity if you had taken a dip too early.. After that the dip is much more valuable than anything a paladin will get short of maybe the aura expansion lvls deep into tier4.

Of course some Hexadin builds actually go Warlock first (lvl splits might be lvl 5 for eldritch smite, lvl 7 for lvl 4 spells (SoM), lvl 9 for lvl 5 spells and 12 for lifedrinker) and thats really strong as well. I’ve seen tier4 Hexadins of the 12/8 variety, and they are pretty ridiculous martials.

[Skrum]

Yeah, that matches some of my thinking on the matter.


Pal 5 is obviously better than Pal 4/Hex 1 because of the 5th level break point, but I think Pal 5/Hex 1 >> Pal 6. Extra spell slot, Cha focus, cantrips, the freaking shield spell (on top of heavy armor and a shield, and possibly even shield of faith), hexblade's curse....it's incredibly strong.

While it's not core to the class combo, the incentive to be an elf is really high because now you can get Elven Accuracy, and Paladins I think get more mileage out of crits than anyone. The synergy is outstanding. And then of course when you hit Pal 6/Hex 1, the Pal 7 is just not as good in any dimension.

[Witty Username]

You delay aura of protection at that point though. And your cha might not out pace strength yet if you went for a full feat.
If you went str 15 and cha +2 ASi, I can kinda see it but I still think you would want aura of protection as soon as possible.

[Skrum]

You delay aura of protection at that point though. And your cha might not out pace strength yet if you went for a full feat.
If you went str 15 and cha +2 ASi, I can kinda see it but I still think you would want aura of protection as soon as possible.

Pure pally 6 has probably got 18 Str and 16 Cha, if they took something like Skill Expert, Crusher, etc. They could take something that isn't a half feat, but I personally wouldn't; I like to get my main stat to an 18 ASAP.

The hexadin can start with a 15 in Str and a 17 in Cha, and then either take Fey Touched (my fav), or if they're an elf, Elven Accuracy. Either way, they've got an 18 in their main stat, and they've even got 2 extra points to play with at creation. Plus, they have better options for half feats.

Aura is good, but it isn't *that* good. Comparing strictly at character level 6, the full paladin is getting better saves, but sacrificing gains in literally everything else: utility, AC, offense, etc. Delaying the aura by a single level to have a *better* aura, plus all the hexblade goodies, that's incredibly worth it.

[Mastikator]

Pal 1 / Hex 1 is better than Pal 2
Pal 2 / Hex 1 is better than pal 3
Pal 3 / hex 1 is better than pal 4
Pal 4 / hex 1 is worse than pal 5
Pal 5 / hex 1 is worse than pal 6
Pal 6 / hex 1 is better than pal 7
Pal 7 / hex 1 is better than pal 8
Pal 8...19 / hex 1 is better than pal 9...20

For one-shots at level 5 or 6 IMO I'd play pure paladin if we're not leveling up

[Pex]

I'm feeling a significant amount of disconnect, do people associate SAD primarily with just not needing to bump a stat after character creation?

That's... not what SAD means, at least not to me, if you need a stat other than your primary (with a caveat here for some Con), then you are not SAD.

Why are they the best through T2? By dipping you're just delaying all of the key features, outside ofboss battles with a single big bad you'd be consistently behind a straight Paladin.

SAD does not mean no more increases. It means you only worry about one score to increase. You start with a 16 in Point Buy and only need two ASI to get it to 20. Get it at 8th level or 12th level if you want a feat. After that you're free to do whatever you want, more feats or increase a secondary for high level play. This is if you really really care about getting to 20 as soon as possible. If you don't care about the 20 SAD isn't as important. You still don't want to rely on three scores because it means you're always catching up. Two scores is fine. If you don't need feats you can have 16/16 at first level then bump one to 18 at level 4 and the other at level 8. 18s are good enough get a feat or two at higher levels. If you don't mind one score at 16 for awhile get a feat at level 4 or 8.


Yeah, that matches some of my thinking on the matter.

The ideal combo of levels feels like hexblade 2/Paladin 6. Which is near the end of Tier 2. For the first half ish your not gaining as much from the SAD shift and delaying aura of protection. I would recommend holding of heblade until 7th level for the optimal gains, 8th or 9th also have arguments with ASIs and subclass features depending on specific needs. This pushes hex paladin into T3 personally. That being said I have not seen a hex paladin in actual play, paladin, hexblade and hex bard but not specifically hex paladin.

If you don't take hexblade early you're missing the point of SAD. You want to be relying on CH for weapon attacks as soon as possible. Warlock in general is a good multiclass with paladin, but if you're going paladin first for 6 levels then you care about ST and any warlock will do to multiclass, not specifically hexblade. You take paladin at level 1 if you care about heavy armor, but that requires 15 ST. You're better off accepting medium armor and take hexblade first. 13 ST 14 DX 16 CH is easy to have at level 1 with Point Buy. I prefer to have minimum 14 CO. This is doable, but it means dumping IN and WI isn't so good either. Almost everyone dumps IN anyway, welcome to the club, and warlock proficiency compensates low WI until level 6 paladin is online.


It gets messy if you actually care about the lore of how a Warlock works.
You're not just getting free powers from somewhere. You're making a pact with an entity who then, in return for your pact, grants you power. But with a Paladin, you're assumed to be already doing that. The force that is granting you your Paladin abilities will naturally be at odds with whatever force is granting you your Warlock abilities. Even if they share a nature (ie: both goodly forces or whatever) they'll still likely not have the same desires and motivations for your character, and you can't split loyalties without things getting ugly fast.

Now, if you don't give a hoot about intrinsic class lore/assumptions, then obviously none of the above applies. But it's the default assumption to work with.

It's possible to have your Oath and Pact be dedicated to the same entity. It's also possible to think of your various abilities being from the same source as if it was one class in flavor text despite multiclassing in game mechanics. warlock 2/paladin 2 is

Level 1: Patron, Spells
Level 2: Invocations
Level 3: Lay On Hands, Divine Sense
Level 4: Smite, Fighting Style

Then if keep alternating warlock and paladin one for one to be 4/4:

Level 5: Pact
Level 6: Oath
Level 7: ASI
Level 8: ASI

Probably not many people would do it this way, but it would be how it looks if one did.

[Selion]

The more i look at it the less it's convincing me...
If you go paladin first STR is not a dump stat (you need 15 to wear heavy armor), you play 6 levels with suboptimal stats (because you are not increasing strength), then you go for 2 hexblade levels by level 8, delaying the second ASI in respect to a full paladin, and delaying the level 7 subclass feature until level 9
By level 10 you have filled the gap with ASI, you have better dmg because, finally, SADness kicks in (after 10 levels!) and you've got hexblade curse, but you are delaying level 3 spells.

So...
For 10 levels you play a suboptimal character in respect to a full Paladin, and by level 10 i'm not even sure you are better, by then most campaigns are already finished.

The other route is Hexblade first and medium armor. Strength becomes a dump stat from beginning, but you need 14 dex, you have profits from your high cha from level 1 though.
So, your dmg is better in respect to a full pala, your AC is worst (but you've got shield and AOA to compensate).
There are some grim levels:
Level 5 is horrible, because you're delaying second attack
Level 6 is even worse, because you're delaying Aura
level 7 could be nice, but you're delaying your subclass feature
level 8 you are down an ASI
level 9 idem
level 10 it's just as before (possibly with higher cha and lower AC)

All of this is just theorycrafting, i've not played this build, my impression, as it happens with other dips (i'm playing fighter 2/wizard x for example, and i encounter this problem), you increase the ceiling of power of your character, but you won't reach that ceiling until high levels.
Either cases your character has pretty solid options, and it will be a blast to play, so my suggestion is just going with your desires.

[Mastikator]

The difference between 15 strength for full plate without slowing down (wearing plate with 13 str is not a terrible deal, it's just reducing movement speed from 30 to 20, or 25 to 25 if dwarf) and needing 20 strength is pretty huge actually. It's 2.5 ASIs. That's level 4 and 8 that you're not raising charisma, it's 2 feats you're not taking.

A hexadin can easily get 20 charisma, leave str at 15 at low level, using higher level ASIs for feats or con or whatever they want. A hexadin spends most of their time having their cha at 20 and not caring that str is 13 or 15

A pure paladin needs to use all of their ASIs to raise both charisma and strength to 20, only potentially getting a feat at level 19. A pure paladin spends most of their time having one or both of str and cha at less than 20.

Hexadin is actually better at lower levels than pure paladin, level 5 and 6 are particularly harsh for hexadin, but 1-4 and 7+ are all strictly better.

[Selion]

The difference between 15 strength for full plate without slowing down (wearing plate with 13 str is not a terrible deal, it's just reducing movement speed from 30 to 20, or 25 to 25 if dwarf) and needing 20 strength is pretty huge actually. It's 2.5 ASIs. That's level 4 and 8 that you're not raising charisma, it's 2 feats you're not taking.

A hexadin can easily get 20 charisma, leave str at 15 at low level, using higher level ASIs for feats or con or whatever they want

A pure paladin needs to use all of their ASIs to raise both charisma and strength to 20, only potentially getting a feat at level 19.

Hexadin is actually better at lower levels than pure paladin, level 5 and 6 are particularly harsh for hexadin, but 1-4 and 7+ are all strictly better.

Ok so you're going for the dip at level 1 or 2, the schedule is changing then
I don't feel the need for 20 str, its +1 to hit and +1 to dmg, though

Level 1 is better for the paladin, they are the same, but the hexadin is working with a dump stat in attack
level 2-3 are maybe better for the hexadin
level 4 hexa is down an ASI
level 5-6 are horrible for the hexadin
level 7 is better for the hexadin (it may depend on your level 7 class feature, i'd say it is generally better)
How are level 8-9 better if you are down an ASI? I'd say they are comparable, because of the juicy tools the warlock is offering (i'm thinking AOA and shield specifically)
Level 10 is better for hexa, but you've not level 3 spells (then you've not level 3 smites)

Dunno, i'm undecided, i don't see this large gap in power. Hexadin has more tools, and it could be fun! I'm not saying it's a weak character (it's actually pretty strong), i'm just saying it's not that stronger than a full pala, and full pala has actually some pros to compensate the loss of additional tools


If you are a dwarf, i see your point, but then you have not PAM until level 5 and you are down an ASI after that (unless you use tacha's custom origins, then the floating +2 of mountain dwarves compensates the ASI). So yes, tacha str 8 mountain dwarves may be better by level > 7 Sry my mistake, 13 str is the bare minimum (level 5/6 are still horrible)

Edit: if we are building a level 15 character without looking at progression, then hexadin is better, i'd say way better. That's why this multiclass options are so popular IMHO.

[Mastikator]

You need at least 13 str to multiclass paladin, so all hexadins must have 13 or more str. A dwarf hexadin would have 13 str

At level 6 hexadin may have 18 cha but lack aura of protection, a level 6 pal may have aura but only has 16 str/18 cha or 18str/16 cha, so the aura is less valuable or the attack is weaker. Overall I think the paladin is slightly better than the hexadin at this level, only slightly.

At 7 the hexadin has 18 cha and uses it to fight, cast spells and aura. But missing oath aura. Just better IMO.

At 8 the hexadin is down an ASI, but the paladin must choose between cha (for spells and aura) or str for attacks, so their ASI is only half as good. The paladin is either 18/18, or 16/20 or 20/16. So it's at best equal to the hexadin, but missing shield and hexblade curse

At 9 the hexadin has 20 cha, meaning +5 to damage and to aura and to spells, but is missing level 3 smites. I think only level 5 is horrible, 6 is slightly worse, 7 and forward is much better.

At 12 the paladin finally has 20/20 in str/cha, but the hexadin has had that for the last 4 levels

At 13 the hexadin can now start taking feats or raising their con or whatever

[Selion]

You need at least 13 str to multiclass paladin, so all hexadins must have 13 or more str. A dwarf hexadin would have 13 str

At level 6 hexadin may have 18 cha but lack aura of protection, a level 6 pal may have aura but only has 16 str/18 cha or 18str/16 cha, so the aura is less valuable or the attack is weaker. Overall I think the paladin is slightly better than the hexadin at this level, only slightly.

At 7 the hexadin has 18 cha and uses it to fight, cast spells and aura. But missing oath aura. Just better IMO.

At 8 the hexadin is down an ASI, but the paladin must choose between cha (for spells and aura) or str for attacks, so their ASI is only half as good. The paladin is either 18/18, or 16/20 or 20/16. So it's at best equal to the hexadin, but missing shield and hexblade curse

At 9 the hexadin has 20 cha, meaning +5 to damage and to aura and to spells, but is missing level 3 smites. I think only level 5 is horrible, 6 is slightly worse, 7 and forward is much better.

At 12 the paladin finally has 20/20 in str/cha, but the hexadin has had that for the last 4 levels

At 13 the hexadin can now start taking feats or raising their con or whatever

Ok i may agree with that, putting everything together

Level 1-6: comparable, pala is slightly better
level 7-12: comparable, hexa is better
level 13+ hexa wins (i still would miss my pegasus at level 13/14)

EDIT: Tier 2 is usually seen as the apex in a campaign, so i may understand why hexadin is an appealing buid

[Pex]

The difference between 15 strength for full plate without slowing down (wearing plate with 13 str is not a terrible deal, it's just reducing movement speed from 30 to 20, or 25 to 25 if dwarf) and needing 20 strength is pretty huge actually. It's 2.5 ASIs. That's level 4 and 8 that you're not raising charisma, it's 2 feats you're not taking.

A hexadin can easily get 20 charisma, leave str at 15 at low level, using higher level ASIs for feats or con or whatever they want. A hexadin spends most of their time having their cha at 20 and not caring that str is 13 or 15

A pure paladin needs to use all of their ASIs to raise both charisma and strength to 20, only potentially getting a feat at level 19. A pure paladin spends most of their time having one or both of str and cha at less than 20.

Hexadin is actually better at lower levels than pure paladin, level 5 and 6 are particularly harsh for hexadin, but 1-4 and 7+ are all strictly better.

That's only a problem if you feel you must have 20s. 18/18 ST/CH is fine for single class paladin. If a feat is crucial play Variant Human. For some people 16 CH isn't terrible to get a feat. Spells are buffs or fuel smites, so DC and number of spells prepared don't matter. +3 to saving throws is no +4/+5 of course, but it will do. Another feat is important enough for these players.

[diplomancer]

You need at least 13 str to multiclass paladin, so all hexadins must have 13 or more str. A dwarf hexadin would have 13 str

At level 6 hexadin may have 18 cha but lack aura of protection, a level 6 pal may have aura but only has 16 str/18 cha or 18str/16 cha, so the aura is less valuable or the attack is weaker. Overall I think the paladin is slightly better than the hexadin at this level, only slightly.

At 7 the hexadin has 18 cha and uses it to fight, cast spells and aura. But missing oath aura. Just better IMO.

At 8 the hexadin is down an ASI, but the paladin must choose between cha (for spells and aura) or str for attacks, so their ASI is only half as good. The paladin is either 18/18, or 16/20 or 20/16. So it's at best equal to the hexadin, but missing shield and hexblade curse

At 9 the hexadin has 20 cha, meaning +5 to damage and to aura and to spells, but is missing level 3 smites. I think only level 5 is horrible, 6 is slightly worse, 7 and forward is much better.

At 12 the paladin finally has 20/20 in str/cha, but the hexadin has had that for the last 4 levels

At 13 the hexadin can now start taking feats or raising their con or whatever

I agree that level 5 is the worst by far, but having either Booming Blade or Greenflame Blade as your second warlock cantrip will improve the situation a bit. Being SAD also allows you to go for Custom Lineage and start with 18Cha and Fey-Touched. Str 15 and Con 15, raise your Cha at Pal 4, Res (Con) at Pal 8, either WarCaster or Polearm Master at Pal 12. Probably a good idea to grap 2nd Hexblade level around Character Level 11-13 for good Eldritch Blasts, and your Pegasus as your capstone.

[Willie the Duck]

Side note: the whole cha-vs-str thing hits a pothole if you have reason to believe there are belts of giant strength to be found in the campaign (or just gauntlets of ogre power and you aren't worried about hitting 20s in things).

SAD is the attraction.
SAD is definitely what everyone talks about the most. I would say that if all the dip gave you was Cha as an attack attribute, it'd be a much harder sell. SAD, plus shoring up the paladin major weakness of not having great ranged options, plus some SR-recharging low-level slots (perfect for smiting, or Shield), plus some invocations which can address any given other weakness (seeing in darkness if you are a v. human, advantage on concentration saves without War Caster feat, some interesting non-combat spells like at-will disguise self or silent image, or just repelling/agonizing blast on your Eldritch Blast) combine to make it a really tempting choice.

I generally prefer Sorlockadin: Sorcerer and Warlock combine so superbly (you just need 1-3 levels of Warlock, 6 of Paladin and then go rest in Sorcerer
Hmmm, that character doesn't get 2 attacks until 8th level, paladin aura until 9th, and any 3rd level spells until 14th*. That... might work well, but I can also see it being one of those things where all the parts sound tempting, but there are many many levels where a fewer-component build actually outperforms it. Have you done any side-by-sides with straight paladins or hex1/pal X-1?
*unless you switch around orders, but then you might be doing something like switching from sword&board to 2HF midway through the game, which has its' own issues.

It's a patron spell for Hexblades; which might be the single worst decision ever taken on 5e, since it's pretty bad for an actual warlock, but crazy good for a Paladin or Bard dip.
That's kind of how I feel about hexblades in general.:smalltongue: Okay, a pure hexblade isn't baaad, it's just a perfectly normal gish option, which pales in comparison to its' use as a dip for paladins/bards.

I'm feeling a significant amount of disconnect, do people associate SAD primarily with just not needing to bump a stat after character creation?
That's... not what SAD means, at least not to me, if you need a stat other than your primary (with a caveat here for some Con), then you are not SAD.
SAD is a forumite term which means that for which people regularly use it. As you point out, there's already an implied 'excepting Con, of course' clause in the popular conception (also 'and everyone wants a non-negative Dex/Con/Wis if they can'). Sometimes people use it to mean 'this is the only (minus caveats) attribute you really need to have any real amount in' (ex: Dex-based fighter uses it for attack, defense, and the skills you likely will pick for them), and other times people use it to mean 'this is the only attribute you will likely spend any ASIs upon.'

[Mastikator]

IMO the best way to do hexadin is to go paladin only for the first 6 levels, then 1,2,3 or 4 levels in warlock. 1 for hexblade, 2 for invocations and 1 more pact slot, 3 for improved pact weapon, 4 for the ASI. After that you're made of gold and the world is your oyster

[BoutsofInsanity]

Essentially, Hexadins lose only a little bit of straight combat effectiveness for a massive increase in tactical flexibility.

They have several points during leveling where they can jump in and out of classes to remain effective. So building this build from level one isn't to bad.

Further their ability to essentially maximize using Charisma for all of their attacks lets them focus their stat building priorities. Again, allowing for a more diverse character.

Lastly, the options are as varied as Warlocks are, so depending on what type of game being run, the Hexadin should be able to fit in rather easily.

------------------------------------
Typically level 10 is the Highlight point of the build, where you can have 7 levels of Paladin and 3 warlock. But you can mix and match how you choose. But by the end of it all you can easily have the following.


Paladin hit points and proficiencies
Charisma to saves
Charisma to Hit and damage in melee combat
Devil's Sight + Darkness Combo
Eldritch Blast along with Agonizing Blast for sweet charisma damage at range
Two rechargeable Spell Slots
Smites
You can either go strength or dexterity and be fine with your build


It's just a really good option for a diverse magic type gish.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's a patron spell for Hexblades; which might be the single worst decision ever taken on 5e, since it's pretty bad for an actual warlock, but crazy good for a Paladin or Bard dip. Nice. Thank you. Since Hexadins are not an allowed option at my tables when I DM, and I'll never play one, that wasn't something I knew.
Whoops! Was originally writing about level 2 and forgot to revise that part of the post. Thanks for the catch; corrected the post. A pleasure to serve.

Its no less or greater mess than any other Multiclass choice is. The lore is just bad. What was being objected to was the Hexblade's base description, as I read the post that you were responding to.

[Dork_Forge]

SAD is a forumite term which means that for which people regularly use it. As you point out, there's already an implied 'excepting Con, of course' clause in the popular conception (also 'and everyone wants a non-negative Dex/Con/Wis if they can'). Sometimes people use it to mean 'this is the only (minus caveats) attribute you really need to have any real amount in' (ex: Dex-based fighter uses it for attack, defense, and the skills you likely will pick for them), and other times people use it to mean 'this is the only attribute you will likely spend any ASIs upon.'

Bolded is how I always understood it and use it, it doesn't personally make sense to me if it were to just mean you don't need to increase the stat. For example, I consider Rangers and Monks still MAD even if they start with a 14/16 Wis and never increase it, their features rely on a mixture of stats.


On Hexadins at large, it very much feels like one of these two (again, to me):

- Tangible benefits that only really become evident in outweighing costs after a certain level, I'd wager after 9th level for a 1 level dip.

- Acceptance that you'll be a worse Paladin in exchange for some increased boss fight nova (again, with the caveat that this is really level dependent) and a ranged option (EB)

Whilst Shield is a nice thing to have, I personally don't see it as a reason to take a Hexblade dip, you'd be better off getting it from a Sorcerer dip, preferably Divine Soul. Likewise, plugging the Paladin's ranged gap can be done without slowing progression at all, though the cantrip fighting style and Toll the Dead.

Ultimately, given the choice between a dexadin and a hexadin, I don't see the benefits of the hexadin outweighing the benefits of remaining single classed. Even for traditional Str Paladins, it's iffy depending on level whether or not you're actually coming out ahead.

[Zuras]

As with any multi-class build Paladin/Warlock builds are good because they allow for a more versatile character. Multiclass builds with CHA casters also provide synergies that compensate for the loss of raw power (especially at breakpoints like 5th level where single class characters get extra attack or 3rd level spells).

Paladin/Warlock is an especially good combination because the Paladin’s main weaknesses are no good ranged attacks and lack of short rest resource recovery, and two levels of Warlock (any warlock, not just Hexblade) provides a very powerful ranged attack in Eldritch Blast (assuming you take Agonizing Blast) and two extra first level spell slots per short rest.

A single-classed Paladin will be better in a larger party (5 or more PCs) because getting improved auras and higher level spells more than compensates for your range deficiencies, but if you’re playing at a smaller table or with a more volatile party composition, a multiclass is often better.

Personally, I have an AL Paladin I multiclassed into Celestial Warlock after a rough experience playing at a convention where nobody at the table brought a ranged character, and I found it works really well.

[Skrum]

Why would you take 6 paladin levels first....? You guys are taking the build as inefficiently as possible.

Starting stats: str 14 (+1) dex 10 con 14 cha 15 (+2)
2 more points wherever you want them

Paladin 1 for heavy armor
Hexblade 1 for cha melee attacks
Paladin X
Get a half feat at 5th to bring cha to 18

Delaying the aura by a single level is 150% worth it. The aura is good, but some of you act like it's the only reason to play a paladin. It's ain't *that* good. Boosting saves also matters a lot more at the higher levels, so waiting to 7th overall is totally worth it. Lastly, it's a completely passive ability. Hexadin gives you way more toys, making you far more adaptable and IMO, fun to play.

This option is worse than a straight paladin at exactly one level, 5th (and I suppose arguably 2nd, since the pally will have divine smite). The paladin will have extra attack and the hexadin won't. All other levels, the hexadin is king.

And lastly-lastly, a hexadins aura is going to be better than a straight paladins aura for the majority of their careers.

[Eldariel]

Hmmm, that character doesn't get 2 attacks until 8th level, paladin aura until 9th, and any 3rd level spells until 14th*. That... might work well, but I can also see it being one of those things where all the parts sound tempting, but there are many many levels where a fewer-component build actually outperforms it. Have you done any side-by-sides with straight paladins or hex1/pal X-1?
*unless you switch around orders, but then you might be doing something like switching from sword&board to 2HF midway through the game, which has its' own issues.

Oh that wasn't in order. Probably just start Pal 1/Hex 1/Paladin 6 and head into Sorc thereafter potentially taking the second level of Hexblade thereabouts too.

[Zuras]

Why would you take 6 paladin levels first....? You guys are taking the build as inefficiently as possible.

Starting stats: str 14 (+1) dex 10 con 14 cha 15 (+2)
2 more points wherever you want them

Paladin 1 for heavy armor
Hexblade 1 for cha melee attacks
Paladin X
Get a half feat at 5th to bring cha to 18

Delaying the aura by a single level is 150% worth it. The aura is good, but some of you act like it's the only reason to play a paladin. It's ain't *that* good. Boosting saves also matters a lot more at the higher levels, so waiting to 7th overall is totally worth it. Lastly, it's a completely passive ability. Hexadin gives you way more toys, making you far more adaptable and IMO, fun to play.

This option is worse than a straight paladin at exactly one level, 5th (and I suppose arguably 2nd, since the pally will have divine smite). The paladin will have extra attack and the hexadin won't. All other levels, the hexadin is king.

And lastly-lastly, a hexadins aura is going to be better than a straight paladins aura for the majority of their careers.

This analysis is seriously discounting the utility of oath features at 3rd & 7th, 3rd level spells at 9th, and Improved Divine Smite at 11th. A single warlock level doesn’t cover your range limitations any better than the Blessed Warrior fighting style, and doubles down on your identity as a single target nova attacker. If that’s what you’re focused on, then yes, a Hexblade dip is almost always better, but that doesn’t mean you won’t be noticeably behind out on nice features till at least 12th level.

[Skrum]

This analysis is seriously discounting the utility of oath features at 3rd & 7th, 3rd level spells at 9th, and Improved Divine Smite at 11th. A single warlock level doesn’t cover your range limitations any better than the Blessed Warrior fighting style, and doubles down on your identity as a single target nova attacker. If that’s what you’re focused on, then yes, a Hexblade dip is almost always better, but that doesn’t mean you won’t be noticeably behind out on nice features till at least 12th level.

"Noticable behind" is 1 level behind? I disagree, but ok.

Hexadin doesn't just have better nova damage, they have better defenses, a far better spell list, effectively more feats, and a better primary stat. Hexblade's Curse is at least in the ballpark of the Oath powers, so I'd call that offsetting. And again, anything the straight paladin gets the hexadin is getting one level later.

[Selion]

Things i didn't take in account previously
- 2 level hexblade are not enough for PAM builds, because you can use the hex warrior feature only on weapons lacking the two handed properties (unless you are going quarterstaff shield PAM :smallannoyed:)
- Hexblade curse is good for crit fishing, and paladins love being crit fishers, because smite is multiplied by criticals.

So, my opinion has slightly shifted in the discussion, now i think that hexadin is actually better, but not to the point that full pala is completely overshadowed.

[animorte]

Some people are getting caught up in what the most optimal path is to progress. That take just seems very short-sighted to me. This is not the only way to design your characters and the only way to play. Believe it or not, you can still be very effective being a whole level behind on getting that extra spell level. Just try to get creative and have fun. You don't always need to have the absolute best mechanical version of a PC to be useful and enjoy yourself.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

IMO the best way to do hexadin is to go paladin only for the first 6 levels, then 1,2,3 or 4 levels in warlock. 1 for hexblade, 2 for invocations and 1 more pact slot, 3 for improved pact weapon, 4 for the ASI. After that you're made of gold and the world is your oyster

For optimization I think I'd be inclined to go this way, with a 1 level dip, then back to Paly. Downside is you're 'only' +2 to attack for 6 levels; upside is you're not 'behind' for those levels where Hexblade is weaker. I can see other options being viable though.

[Zuras]

"Noticable behind" is 1 level behind? I disagree, but ok.

Hexadin doesn't just have better nova damage, they have better defenses, a far better spell list, effectively more feats, and a better primary stat. Hexblade's Curse is at least in the ballpark of the Oath powers, so I'd call that offsetting. And again, anything the straight paladin gets the hexadin is getting one level later.

You get two spells with a Hexblade level, which are usually going to be Shield and Hex. That’s two nice spells, not a whole better list. Your improved defenses require either a feat or not using a shield, because casting Shield requires a free hand for the somatic component. If you went Hexblade to leave your Str at 14 and only pump Cha, you can’t use two-handed weapons anyway, and if you want to get the most out of heavy armor you still want a 15 Str.

A single level of Hexblade on a Paladin is very strong, but it really, really doubles down on their tendency to blow all their resources in a single fight. I’m also not saying that the dip isn’t worth doing, but Paladin doesn’t have a bunch of relatively empty levels between 5th and 11th level like Ranger or Fighter. Most levels you’re getting something, and at least half of them it’s something good. Compare that to a Ranger, where you have almost zero regrets with Multiclassing after 5th level.

[Selion]

Some people are getting caught up in what the most optimal path is to progress. That take just seems very short-sighted to me. This is not the only way to design your characters and the only way to play. Believe it or not, you can still be very effective being a whole level behind on getting that extra spell level. Just try to get creative and have fun. You don't always need to have the absolute best mechanical version of a PC to be useful and enjoy yourself.

I think everybody agrees with this, it's just an optimization thread like others, we're just chilling :smallsmile:

Both routes are extremely solid and powerful, they represents different tropes (the hexading representing a dark/cursed yet possibly valliant knight), so it really depends on what the player wants from their character.

[animorte]

I think everybody agrees with this, it's just an optimization thread like others, we're just chilling :smallsmile:

Both routes are extremely solid and powerful, they represents different tropes (the hexading representing a dark/cursed yet possibly valliant knight), so it really depends on what the player wants from their character.

I certainly feel all of that. I like to live the reminder that dwells in my sig, apparently.

[Sigreid]

Honestly, if you take one level of paladin followed by 1 level of Hexblade, you have access to martial weapons, heavy armor, and a solid ranged cantrip. You need 15 str. to wear the heavy armor, but all of your attacks can be keyed off of charisma instead of strength or dex. After that point you just go for whatever abilities in whichever of the classes you want and you really can't go wrong. You've got such a solid base it's practically impossible to screw up your character. He/she will be solid no matter what you do.

[animorte]

You've got such a solid base it's practically impossible to screw up your character. He/she will be solid no matter what you do.

And this is best the answer to why Hexadin is good.

[Millstone85]

Paladins are even more vague as to what powers them beyond belief in their cause and the oaths they hold to it, you may choose that a deity or entity grants it but its not a given that is the case.The DMG page 11 goes into different sources of divine magic.

My interpretation is that, by default:

a cleric prays to a deity.
a druid communes with a force, nature.
a paladin lives by "a philosophy of justice and chivalry", their oath.

While it might look like the paladin is pulling themself up by their bootstraps, the DMG says that "a philosophy that only one person believes in isn't strong enough to bestow magical power on that person". So the oath must be part of the local zeitgest, with people clapping their hands for its champions, and may even be manifested somewhere in the Astral.


YMMV, I have heard people argue all sorts of things like that warlocks aren't required to have a specific pact with their patron or that the powers gained are now innate to the warlock without obligations to maintain. I don't agree but I have heard the claims.I find pact magic much more difficult to figure out:

Does the patron reveal secrets to the warlock? In that case, depowering the warlock would involve wiping out their memories.
Or does the patron change the warlock's essence to resemble their own, like a magical blood transfusion? Then depowering the warlock would be like trying to take the sorcery out of a sorcerer.
Or is pact magic literally the magic of a pact, which might be like that of an oath except somehow arcane instead of divine? Then breaking the pact might indeed nullify the warlock's powers.
Perhaps it is a mix of all of the above.

Then there is the issue of the terms of the pact:

Was it a one-time exchange, with the price having already been paid?
Was it a one-time exchange, but the warlock has yet to repay their debt?
Is it a once-per-level renewal of contract, necessary to level up in the class?
Has the warlock actually sold their soul and must serve all their life or even beyond?
The Great Old One is said to possibly not even being aware of the warlock, in which case I guess the "pact" would consist in not poking the entity too hard while learning its secrets.

This could be seen as options aplenty, but to me it feels like WotC just skipped the worldbuilding.

[Sigreid]

The DMG page 11 goes into different sources of divine magic.

My interpretation is that, by default:

a cleric prays to a deity.
a druid communes with a force, nature.
a paladin lives by "a philosophy of justice and chivalry", their oath.

While it might look like the paladin is pulling themself up by their bootstraps, the DMG says that "a philosophy that only one person believes in isn't strong enough to bestow magical power on that person". So the oath must be part of the local zeitgest, with people clapping their hands for its champions, and may even be manifested somewhere in the Astral.

I find pact magic much more difficult to figure out:

Does the patron reveal secrets to the warlock? In that case, depowering the warlock would involve wiping out their memories.
Or does the patron change the warlock's essence to resemble their own, like a magical blood transfusion? Then depowering the warlock would be like trying to take the sorcery out of a sorcerer.
Or is pact magic literally the magic of a pact, which might be like that of an oath except somehow arcane instead of divine? Then breaking the pact might indeed nullify the warlock's powers.
Perhaps it is a mix of all of the above.

Then there is the issue of the terms of the pact:

Was it a one-time exchange, with the price having already been paid?
Was it a one-time exchange, but the warlock has yet to repay their debt?
Is it a once-per-level renewal of contract, necessary to level up in the class?
Has the warlock actually sold their soul and must serve all their life or even beyond?
The Great Old One is said to possibly not even being aware of the warlock, in which case I guess the "pact" would consist in not poking the entity too hard while learning its secrets.

This could be seen as options aplenty, but to me it feels like WotC just skipped the worldbuilding.

I think for paladin his power source is his absolute certainty that he's a better and more noble person than you.

I think for warlock, it all depends on how well you negotiate. the awakening a spark of power I think is a one time thing, but what you traded for it. Maybe you've traded a single task. Maybe you sold your soul. Maybe you sacrificed a dozen children whose souls went straight to the river Styx. Maybe you have to sing a hym honoring an angel every morning. That's between the player and the DM to figure out. The very few times I've played a warlock it didn't matter because I didn't want it to matter so the DM doesn't make it matter.

[sithlordnergal]

But with ONE condition. Character is at most level 15.

A lot of the reasons have already been looked at, but here are some of the reasons:

---Level 1---


You become SAD, which basically means everything you do only uses the Charisma stat. Get 15 Strength, then never touch it again, cause you fight only with Charisma
Hexblade's Curse is an excellent damage buff, and its just a Bonus Action. So you can set them up during the first first round and still attack
You can take two spells, one of which can be the Shield spell, the other can be Hex, for more damage, or Armor of Agathys, for defense
You can snag Eldritch Blast, which is a reliable ranged attack and far better than tossing a Javelin. You can also take Booming Blade, which is great if you have War Caster
You gain a single bonus spell slot that is added on top of your normal pool of spell slots, and it recharges on a Short Rest. Paladins usually don't get anything back on a Short Rest, so this is handy
Story wise, it is incredibly easy to multiclass into. You basically made a pact with a sentient weapon, there are both good and bad sentient weapons out there. So you can make a pact with a good one. Who knows, maybe your DM will eventually tie that sentient weapon into the story.




---Level 2---


You gain another Short Rest Spell Slot. Given these stack on top of your normal slots, it means you have six 1st level slots
You learn another spell. So if you decided to take Shield and Armor of Agathys, now you can take Hex
You gain two Eldritch Invocations. Agonizing Blast lets you add your Charisma Modifier to Eldritch Blast's damage, the second one can be utility



---Level 3---


Your 1st level slots are now 2nd level
You gain your Pact Boon, which can either make you a better caster, let you summon any melee weapon, or give you a really useful Familiar. Don't take Talisman, I suggest taking Pact of the Blade.
You can swap out your utility Invocation for one related to your pact. For instance, Pact of the Blade gives you Improved Pact Weapon, which is essentially a permanent +1 weapon, and lets you summon a Longbow, Shortbow, Light Crossbow, or Heavy Crossbow


------

I would suggest only taking two levels of Hexblade, and have the rest be Paladin, mostly because you don't want to miss out on 4th level spells. That nets you all of the level 1 and 2 benefits. You could also go Hexblade 5, and only have 10 levels of Paladin. That nets you an ASI from Warlock, a 3rd Invocation, and a pair of 3rd level spell slots you can use. But you lose Improved Divine Smite and 4th level spells/slots. Its also 1/3rd of your build, and because of how Paladin works, you really want Aura of Protection as soon as possible. You'd only want to take 1 level of Warlock at most until you get that feature.

Additionally, the ability that lets you attack with Charisma does not work with Two-Handed weapons unless you take Pact of the Blade. This means you'll likely be using a Shield. For your Fighting Style, I'd either take Defense or Dueling. Defense gives you +1 to AC, which is nice since you'll be the party tank, while Dueling gives you +2 to damage, which may not seem like a lot but it adds up quickly.

Now, you're only going to level 15, so you only have 3 ASI's to spend. Thankfully with Hexblade, you can put 2 ASI's into Charisma and not have to worry about your other stats. So you'll have one feat you can take. I highly suggest taking War Caster, since it lets you cast spells while carrying a Shield. It also has some nice synergy with Booming Blade, since you can use that for your Attack of Opportunity and have it instantly proc the bonus damage.

Last but not least, if you decide to go 3, 4, or 5 levels into Hexblade, I suggest taking Pact of the Blade. Hexblade was made for Pact of the Blade, literally. Its core feature, Hex Warrior, gets better if you go Pact of the Blade. You can also get Improved Pact Weapon, which turns any weapon you summon into a +1 magical weapon, provided it doesn't already have a similar bonus. With the way its worded, you can absolutely get a +1 Flametongue via this Invocation. It also gives you access to Eldritch Smite, which is basically Divine Smite that you can use once per round. You can stack Divine Smite and Eldritch Smite onto a single hit for a powerful nuke, but it takes up a TON of resources to do, because Eldritch Smite only works with Warlock spell slots.

[Hael]

A single level of Hexblade on a Paladin is very strong, but it really, really doubles down on their tendency to blow all their resources in a single fight.

Hexadins are much more of a sustain class than pure Paladins are assuming a proper adventuring day. Refreshing slots and hexblade curse on a short rest are sustainable options that will be up a good portion of fights. Spells like darkness (with DS), or hex are long duration buffs that will be up for multiple fights.
Moreover eldritch blast as a filler attack on rounds where the paladin is out of range or otherwise hindered is free, and adds significantly to total dpr done over the course of a day.

Finally, the shield spell cannot be emphasized enough. The total amount of damage coming into a melee character over the course of a day is dramatically reduced by the presence of this spell. The amount of resources you have to blow in order to offset this as well as the opportunity cost (eg lay on hands, burning HD as well as downtime) is simply enormous.

[Millstone85]

I think for paladin his power source is his absolute certainty that he's a better and more noble person than you.That might be leaning a bit too hard into the "lawful stupid paly" trope.


I think for warlock, it all depends on how well you negotiate. the awakening a spark of power I think is a one time thing, but what you traded for it. Maybe you've traded a single task. Maybe you sold your soul. Maybe you sacrificed a dozen children whose souls went straight to the river Styx. Maybe you have to sing a hym honoring an angel every morning. That's between the player and the DM to figure out. The very few times I've played a warlock it didn't matter because I didn't want it to matter so the DM doesn't make it matter.For my warlock, I went with her having unstable sorcery (from a different origin, or was it?) that her patron helped stabilize. Breaking the pact would likely mean bursting into flames or mutating into some strange creature. Well, she was mutating anyway, but with her patron's help she hoped it would be into something powerful.

[Mastikator]

For optimization I think I'd be inclined to go this way, with a 1 level dip, then back to Paly. Downside is you're 'only' +2 to attack for 6 levels; upside is you're not 'behind' for those levels where Hexblade is weaker. I can see other options being viable though.

Eh you'd still be a paladin for 6 levels. Paladins are really strong, they have great spells and great stuff. Going straight paladin with focus on charisma isn't weak, it's just that once you dip into hexblade you go from "pretty okay" to "where we're going we don't need roads"

[Chronos]

Personally, I think the relevant comparison is between a pure paladin and a paladin with a one-level hexblade dip. More levels of hexblade after that first one are debatable, but that first hexblade level is solid gold. Here's why:

Paladin is the most ASI-hungry class in the game. They want to max their combat stat, and they want to max their Charisma, and they could always use Con, and they want all of the same feats as any other martial (one or more of Polearm Master, Shield Master, or Great Weapon Master; Sentinel; Heavy Armor Master, Martial Adept, etc.), plus all of those feats that are good on anyone (Magic Initiate, Ritual Caster, Lucky, etc.), plus Inspiring Leader. Obviously, there's no way to get all of what you want, but what this means is that freeing up ASIs will always mean that you're making room for something else good. You'd never be saying "Aw, man, I already took all the good feats; there's nothing left".

And with Hex Warrior, a hexadin can get as much benefit from 20 Cha/15 Str (for armor) as a straight paladin gets from 20 Cha/20 Str. That immediately frees up 2.5 ASIs. Maybe even more, if you're willing to settle for medium armor (or you're a dwarf), for 20 Cha/13 Str/14 Dex.

And you're also getting two cantrips, which could, say, be Eldritch Blast, and Mage Hand or Minor Illusion: Now you've gone from being completely useless at range, to being half-decent, and you've got some nice out-of-combat utility.

And you also have two spells known, which could be, say, Shield and Hex.

And you also have a short-rest spell slot that can be used to cast either of those, or to fuel a smite.

And you also have Hexblade's Curse.

I picture the build as either Pal 1/Hex 1/Paladin all the rest. At level 1, you're slightly worse than a straight paladin, because you left your Str at 15, but honestly, level 1 is mostly about running away until you hit level 2, anyway. At level 5, you're definitely worse than a straight paladin, because you don't have Extra Attack yet. At level 6, it's close, since you have Extra Attack but don't yet have your aura, but the other things you gain are probably worth more, in total, than the aura. At any other level, 2-4 or 7-20, what you're gaining from Hexblade is definitely better than what you're losing from paladin. The only other point where it's even remotely close is 11, but just having Hex is nearly as good as Improved Divine Smite.

Alternately, if you go the Str 13 route, you're probably starting with Hex 1, and then paladin for the rest. Level 1 is a bit better this way, but the rest is slightly worse, because heavy armor is better than medium.

Now, from here, more Hexblade levels might still be tempting, for more pact slots, invocations, etc. But even without them, you're already ahead.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Having personally played a hexadin to level 12 and 3 paladins at various levels up to 13, I think that both options are fun, effective and powerful. But the hexadin definitely felt more rounded, stronger and tankier. The disparity in power was noticeable to the point where it almost felt like "cheat mode" at times.


Personally, I think the relevant comparison is between a pure paladin and a paladin with a one-level hexblade dip. More levels of hexblade after that first one are debatable, but that first hexblade level is solid gold. Here's why:

just having Hex is nearly as good as Improved Divine Smite.

I agreed with everything you said except the part about the Hex spell. Personally, I think that the paladin spell list has too many concentration spells which are just so much better than Hex, that even with the extended duration and damage over time, Hex just isn't worth it. I suppose if you never cast other spells and just Smite all the time, then you might appreciate having Hex. But I only ever cast Hex once with my hexadin, and thereafter wished I taken something else. Bless, Prot from E & G, Wrathful Smite, Spirit Shroud, Aura of Vitality...I just always found that one of the other choices was always the better, more impactful use of my concentration for any particular battle. Even after my Aura grew in and added to my Res Con/high Con score for unshakable concentration saves, the long duration aspect of Hex wasn't enough of a draw for me to forego Blessing my party's GWM barbarian and the Sharpshooting fighter. Or face-tanking the undead hordes with a PfE&G and a well-timed Shield or two.

Love paladins. I've never played another hexadin after that first one. But I definitely found the hexadin more outright powerful than a straight paladin, and I'd be lying if I didn't say that I'm tempted by that dip every single time.

[Pex]

As with any multi-class build Paladin/Warlock builds are good because they allow for a more versatile character. Multiclass builds with CHA casters also provide synergies that compensate for the loss of raw power (especially at breakpoints like 5th level where single class characters get extra attack or 3rd level spells).

Paladin/Warlock is an especially good combination because the Paladin’s main weaknesses are no good ranged attacks and lack of short rest resource recovery, and two levels of Warlock (any warlock, not just Hexblade) provides a very powerful ranged attack in Eldritch Blast (assuming you take Agonizing Blast) and two extra first level spell slots per short rest.

A single-classed Paladin will be better in a larger party (5 or more PCs) because getting improved auras and higher level spells more than compensates for your range deficiencies, but if you’re playing at a smaller table or with a more volatile party composition, a multiclass is often better.

Personally, I have an AL Paladin I multiclassed into Celestial Warlock after a rough experience playing at a convention where nobody at the table brought a ranged character, and I found it works really well.

Playing a paladin in a game I never intended to multiclass, but over time it was evident his lack of range prowess was hurting the party. Nothing stopped me from using a bow, but 10 DX and can't smite isn't anything. The party loses my turn of stuff because I have nothing relevant. I multi-classed but went with Sorcerer. Fire Bolt and Ray of Frost were enough. As the game continued I didn't cast them often, but they were handy when necessary. It is the obligatory Shield and Absorb Elements that has proven most valuable. They literally saved my character's life one combat. I went four levels in Sorcerer for the metamagic and ASI. It was a great bump to my spell slots for lots of smiting too. It was worth the cost of delay in higher level paladin features.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Eh you'd still be a paladin for 6 levels. Paladins are really strong, they have great spells and great stuff. Going straight paladin with focus on charisma isn't weak, it's just that once you dip into hexblade you go from "pretty okay" to "where we're going we don't need roads"

I agree that Paladins are really strong. I don't really agree that Paladins are really strong at tier 1. Level 1 they're in the running for the weakest character (as are all 1/2 casters). They get a little better from 2-4 and I could see them being decent at a table with a short adventuring day, but with few spell slots to burn still not great. 5 is a huge bump with both multi-attack and doubling spells, as of course, is 6 with the aura.
So, to me a Pally from 1-6 with a 15 Str isn't overall strong. A high Chr has limited benefit at these levels as well due to limited slots + no Aura until 6.

[Leon]

The DMG page 11 goes into different sources of divine magic.

My interpretation is that, by default:

a cleric prays to a deity.
a druid communes with a force, nature.
a paladin lives by "a philosophy of justice and chivalry", their oath.

While it might look like the paladin is pulling themself up by their bootstraps, the DMG says that "a philosophy that only one person believes in isn't strong enough to bestow magical power on that person". So the oath must be part of the local zeitgest, with people clapping their hands for its champions, and may even be manifested somewhere in the Astral.

I find pact magic much more difficult to figure out:

Does the patron reveal secrets to the warlock? In that case, depowering the warlock would involve wiping out their memories.
Or does the patron change the warlock's essence to resemble their own, like a magical blood transfusion? Then depowering the warlock would be like trying to take the sorcery out of a sorcerer.
Or is pact magic literally the magic of a pact, which might be like that of an oath except somehow arcane instead of divine? Then breaking the pact might indeed nullify the warlock's powers.
Perhaps it is a mix of all of the above.

Then there is the issue of the terms of the pact:

Was it a one-time exchange, with the price having already been paid?
Was it a one-time exchange, but the warlock has yet to repay their debt?
Is it a once-per-level renewal of contract, necessary to level up in the class?
Has the warlock actually sold their soul and must serve all their life or even beyond?
The Great Old One is said to possibly not even being aware of the warlock, in which case I guess the "pact" would consist in not poking the entity too hard while learning its secrets.

This could be seen as options aplenty, but to me it feels like WotC just skipped the worldbuilding.

Of which nothing conflicts between the two unless you the player decide that yes my two sources of power are conflicting for story/background reasons

[Gignere]

Hexadins are much more of a sustain class than pure Paladins are assuming a proper adventuring day. Refreshing slots and hexblade curse on a short rest are sustainable options that will be up a good portion of fights. Spells like darkness (with DS), or hex are long duration buffs that will be up for multiple fights.
Moreover eldritch blast as a filler attack on rounds where the paladin is out of range or otherwise hindered is free, and adds significantly to total dpr done over the course of a day.

Finally, the shield spell cannot be emphasized enough. The total amount of damage coming into a melee character over the course of a day is dramatically reduced by the presence of this spell. The amount of resources you have to blow in order to offset this as well as the opportunity cost (eg lay on hands, burning HD as well as downtime) is simply enormous.

Unless you have warcaster you are not using a shield or need to do gamist weapon juggling shenanigans to have shield spell available when you need it.

[Frogreaver]

I don't buy the arguments that early hexblade dips are valuable. They appear more of a side grade as paladin is extremely loaded from levels 2-11. Delaying any of those features is painful (sometimes subclass features can be hit and miss). Also note that adding in 1 level of hexblade delays all subsequent Paladin abilities by a level.

That said, if you focus on charisma (as I'd advise) then at some point you will want the hexblade dip unless you have magic items to boost your str (these are fairly common IME).

For these reasons I'd say hexblade are good, albeit in a more limited set of circumstances than most believe.

I also agree with the assessment that hexadins are better than primary str paladins - which I think is where the sentiment about hexadin power is primarily derived.

I think it's also worth noting that I believe spell focused paladins are overall more effective than damage focused paladins. Wrathful Smite, Command, Aura of Vitality and a few good subclass spells are game changers in far more situations than +1 or +2 to hit and damage are. (Especially since Paladins can just smite any time damage is really the best answer).


Finally, the shield spell cannot be emphasized enough. The total amount of damage coming into a melee character over the course of a day is dramatically reduced by the presence of this spell. The amount of resources you have to blow in order to offset this as well as the opportunity cost (eg lay on hands, burning HD as well as downtime) is simply enormous.

IMO, unless you dip at least 3 levels into hexblade for pact of the blade + invocation or take warcaster you won't be using the shield spell on a hexadin. It may very well be worthwhile to do one of these things, but this is significant additional investment beyond the single level hexblade dip. In addition if you go the warcaster route it means you are giving up an ASI for that (shrinking the ASI gap between hexadin and paladin significantly) or it means you are variant human and could have taken a different feat instead (or chosen a race like half elf that gains more ASI's). Notably to take warcaster with the variant human feat also requires you to start as hexblade eliminating your ability to wear heavy armor and making a further mess of your starting ability scores.

So while shield spell is strong, there's alot of additional investment involved in making it work. I'm not sure we can conclude shield spell + the additional investment is worth it especially when a single shield spell most likely prevents a single attack and that spell slot resources could have been used for alot of other things.

[Pex]

I don't buy the arguments that early hexblade dips are valuable. They appear more of a side grade as paladin is extremely loaded from levels 2-11. Delaying any of those features is painful (sometimes subclass features can be hit and miss). Also note that adding in 1 level of hexblade delays all subsequent Paladin abilities by a level.

That said, if you focus on charisma (as I'd advise) then at some point you will want the hexblade dip unless you have magic items to boost your str (these are fairly common IME).

For these reasons I'd say hexblade are good, albeit in a more limited set of circumstances than most believe.

I also agree with the assessment that hexadins are better than primary str paladins - which I think is where the sentiment about hexadin power is primarily derived.

I think it's also worth noting that I believe spell focused paladins are overall more effective than damage focused paladins. Wrathful Smite, Command, Aura of Vitality and a few good subclass spells are game changers in far more situations than +1 or +2 to hit and damage are. (Especially since Paladins can just smite any time damage is really the best answer).



The only reason to get hexblade is to use CH as your attack stat. Everything else is gravy. If you won't be multiclassing until much later in your career than any warlock Patron will do. Warlock in general is a good class for a paladin to multiclass into. Before hexblade existed people were complaining about warlock dips. Hexblade specifically requires early entry for the CH use.

[Frogreaver]

Hexblade specifically requires early entry for the CH use.

You can still max Cha on a Paladin without going hexblade dip early.

As an example, one can be variant human and start with 16 cha, 16 str, 15 con (sets up for resilient con to 16 con later) and PAM (variant human feat) while having 8 dex, 8 int, 8 wis.

Dropping str to 15 presuming you are going for a hexblade dip early could mean 16 con now (making resilient con less appealing later) or 10 dex/wis. In either case you see a fairly small benefit from just the sad cha until quite a bit later. It's really the other benfits of hexblade early that really make it worthwhile to consider. The Cantrips, the spell list, hexblade's curse, etc.

From where I'm sitting it seems that hexblades CHA sadness is only going to really have the possibility of paying off later. It's only clearly better at level 14+. Earlier it's really the other benefits of the warlock that keep it appealing.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't buy the arguments that early hexblade dips are valuable. They appear more of a side grade as paladin is extremely loaded from levels 2-11. Delaying any of those features is painful (sometimes subclass features can be hit and miss). Also note that adding in 1 level of hexblade delays all subsequent Paladin abilities by a level.

That said, if you focus on charisma (as I'd advise) then at some point you will want the hexblade dip unless you have magic items to boost your str (these are fairly common IME).

For these reasons I'd say hexblade are good, albeit in a more limited set of circumstances than most believe.

I also agree with the assessment that hexadins are better than primary str paladins - which I think is where the sentiment about hexadin power is primarily derived.

I think it's also worth noting that I believe spell focused paladins are overall more effective than damage focused paladins. Wrathful Smite, Command, Aura of Vitality and a few good subclass spells are game changers in far more situations than +1 or +2 to hit and damage are. (Especially since Paladins can just smite any time damage is really the best answer).



IMO, unless you dip at least 3 levels into hexblade for pact of the blade + invocation or take warcaster you won't be using the shield spell on a hexadin. It may very well be worthwhile to do one of these things, but this is significant additional investment beyond the single level hexblade dip. In addition if you go the warcaster route it means you are giving up an ASI for that (shrinking the ASI gap between hexadin and paladin significantly) or it means you are variant human and could have taken a different feat instead (or chosen a race like half elf that gains more ASI's). Notably to take warcaster with the variant human feat also requires you to start as hexblade eliminating your ability to wear heavy armor and making a further mess of your starting ability scores.

So while shield spell is strong, there's alot of additional investment involved in making it work. I'm not sure we can conclude shield spell + the additional investment is worth it especially when a single shield spell most likely prevents a single attack and that spell slot resources could have been used for alot of other things.

I think your point about Str items is a good one. If you're at a table where these are common enough that you can expect one then the Hex dip loses a lot of value.
I realize we've never had one at our table in 5e, so maybe that's part of my rationale for thinking the level 1 dip is really strong.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The only reason to get hexblade is to use CH as your attack stat. Everything else is gravy. If you won't be multiclassing until much later in your career than any warlock Patron will do. Warlock in general is a good class for a paladin to multiclass into. Before hexblade existed people were complaining about warlock dips. Hexblade specifically requires early entry for the CH use.

I don't really understand this logic. The difference between your Str and Chr gets larger as you level and put ASIs into Chr. Early on it's likely only a +1 difference due to needing a 15 Str anyway, so the relative benefit is quite small. The big benefit comes once you've pumped Chr a bit.

[Frogreaver]

I think your point about Str items is a good one. If you're at a table where these are common enough that you can expect one then the Hex dip loses a lot of value.
I realize we've never had one at our table in 5e, so maybe that's part of my rationale for thinking the level 1 dip is really strong.

I never played where I expected one but maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of my games ended up having them. Also, Artificers can make guantlets of ogre strength at level 10. That's another potential path to achieve 19 str while still focusing on cha.

IMO, the potential for finding str boosting magic items is the best case for delaying the hexblade dip till late tier 2/tier 3 while still focusing on Cha early. Even if you believe the hexblade dip is clearly optimal starting character level 7+ it's likely worth giving a few more levels to see what kinds of items become available. The potential for those items really change the hexadin calculus.

[Chronos]

Quoth Guy Lombard-O:

I agreed with everything you said except the part about the Hex spell. Personally, I think that the paladin spell list has too many concentration spells which are just so much better than Hex, that even with the extended duration and damage over time, Hex just isn't worth it.
A fair point. When I played a (non-hexblade) warlock, I didn't even bother with Hex, because I had enough other things I wanted to use my concentration on. And on my current paladin (non-hexblade because my table doesn't do multiclassing), I don't usually have many things I'm keeping up for a whole battle, but there's a lot of value in the various bonus-action spells (I've found Branding to be most impactful), and using any of those would interrupt Hex if I had it. Still, Hex is definitely a viable option, and dipping warlock makes that option available. Or various other viable options, some of which (like Armor of Agathys) don't require concentration.

[diplomancer]

A fair point. When I played a (non-hexblade) warlock, I didn't even bother with Hex, because I had enough other things I wanted to use my concentration on. And on my current paladin (non-hexblade because my table doesn't do multiclassing), I don't usually have many things I'm keeping up for a whole battle, but there's a lot of value in the various bonus-action spells (I've found Branding to be most impactful), and using any of those would interrupt Hex if I had it. Still, Hex is definitely a viable option, and dipping warlock makes that option available. Or various other viable options, some of which (like Armor of Agathys) don't require concentration.

I agree with this; just in general, it's probably not a good idea to keep concentration on a 1st level spell, with the possible exception of Bless. So, Armor of Agathys is a good choice, or just something completely different like Comprehend Languages.

[Asmotherion]

SAD + extra slots for smiting that recharge on a short rest + lots of build options due to variaty of infusions, spells and available feats (because SAD).
that, plus Eldritch Smite and Divine Smite stacking together for crazy damage output.

[Hael]

I
IMO, unless you dip at least 3 levels into hexblade for pact of the blade + invocation or take warcaster you won't be using the shield spell on a hexadin. .

Yep agreed. I consider warcaster mandatory for 1h Hexadins and Sorcadins. 2h of course is something like PAM instead. You could of course also take 2 lvls and be a hexadin EB blaster.

I would say warcaster is basically also mandatory at some point for pure 1h Paladins as well, which is why the CL route is the one that is most often taken with these classes and hte difference is the Hexadin can use warcaster best. (BB reaction).

The other thing people are sleeping on is the opposite route. The mainly Warlock one.

Monoclass hexblades is a strong class, and lvls in Paladin fixes a lot of their nagging problems in tier3.. Namely the acquisition of LR slots for shield use, as well as the healing, and extra tankiness. They lose out on some pact magic going this route, but the choices are frequently not that great.

[Dork_Forge]

Yep agreed. I consider warcaster mandatory for 1h Hexadins and Sorcadins. 2h of course is something like PAM instead. You could of course also take 2 lvls and be a hexadin EB blaster.

I would say warcaster is basically also mandatory at some point for pure 1h Paladins as well, which is why the CL route is the one that is most often taken with these classes and hte difference is the Hexadin can use warcaster best. (BB reaction).

The other thing people are sleeping on is the opposite route. The mainly Warlock one.

Monoclass hexblades is a strong class, and lvls in Paladin fixes a lot of their nagging problems in tier3.. Namely the acquisition of LR slots for shield use, as well as the healing, and extra tankiness. They lose out on some pact magic going this route, but the choices are frequently not that great.

Why do you think Warcaster is mandatory for straight 1 handed Paladins?

[diplomancer]

Yep agreed. I consider warcaster mandatory for 1h Hexadins and Sorcadins. 2h of course is something like PAM instead. You could of course also take 2 lvls and be a hexadin EB blaster.

I would say warcaster is basically also mandatory at some point for pure 1h Paladins as well, which is why the CL route is the one that is most often taken with these classes and hte difference is the Hexadin can use warcaster best. (BB reaction).

The other thing people are sleeping on is the opposite route. The mainly Warlock one.

Monoclass hexblades is a strong class, and lvls in Paladin fixes a lot of their nagging problems in tier3.. Namely the acquisition of LR slots for shield use, as well as the healing, and extra tankiness. They lose out on some pact magic going this route, but the choices are frequently not that great.

I'm not very convinced on being warlock focused with a Paladin dip (unless you're talking Paladin 6/Warlock X, but I wouldn't call that a dip). Seems to me you can get more out of Sorcerer, and faster. Go Divine Soul if you want healing.

[Zuras]

Hexadins are much more of a sustain class than pure Paladins are assuming a proper adventuring day. Refreshing slots and hexblade curse on a short rest are sustainable options that will be up a good portion of fights. Spells like darkness (with DS), or hex are long duration buffs that will be up for multiple fights.
Moreover eldritch blast as a filler attack on rounds where the paladin is out of range or otherwise hindered is free, and adds significantly to total dpr done over the course of a day.

Finally, the shield spell cannot be emphasized enough. The total amount of damage coming into a melee character over the course of a day is dramatically reduced by the presence of this spell. The amount of resources you have to blow in order to offset this as well as the opportunity cost (eg lay on hands, burning HD as well as downtime) is simply enormous.

If you take multiple Warlock levels, I agree you’ve gained substantial short rest resource refresh and at-will damage. Just one level doesn’t do much, though. One 1st level slot is not a significant resource at medium levels or beyond, so you’re mainly talking about Hexblade’s Curse. Given the features you could be picking up instead, I regard a Hexblade dip as a very offensive-focused choice rather than purely a better option than straight Paladin. If you take two warlock levels and pick up Agonizing Blast, sure, now you’re talking sustained capabilities.

Also—I’m surprised at the number of commenters downplaying Hex as a good use of concentration. Beyond the damage, imposing disadvantage on Str checks can be very powerful in a GWM heavy party.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Also—I’m surprised at the number of commenters downplaying Hex as a good use of concentration. Beyond the damage, imposing disadvantage on Str checks can be very powerful in a GWM heavy party.

I agree that Hex's debuff is occasionally good. If you have a grappler in the party, then maybe more than occasional (or a Wis debuff on a big single target, for hide/advantage/sneak attack shenanigans).

But other than that, I'm unimpressed by it. The long duration is it's other primary advantage over other low level combat buffs, if you can make it last for multiple combats. But the thing about that is that at low levels, you're unlikely to keep concentration on it up for more than a few hits, so it's unlikely to make it through more than 1, maybe 2 combats. And when you're higher level and have that Aura (and maybe Res Con or War Caster), you've got enough spell slots to cast a better spell in almost every single combat.

But you're going to have to clarify the bolded part for me? How does disadvantage on Str checks help against the foes of a party with a lot of GWMs? The only way I can think of to utilize Str disadvantage is through proning and grappling an enemy. But a GWM build needs both hands for their heavy weapon, so they're unable to grapple. Grappling and GWM are a bit mutually exclusive, no? Even Trip attacks are saving throws, not ability checks. So are you thinking that one of the (Str-based) GWM users is foregoing GWM/attacks to grapple/prone, and the others are capitalizing? If not, what's your thinking here?

[Dork_Forge]

I agree that Hex's debuff is occasionally good. If you have a grappler in the party, then maybe more than occasional (or a Wis debuff on a big single target, for hide/advantage/sneak attack shenanigans).

But other than that, I'm unimpressed by it. The long duration is it's other primary advantage over other low level combat buffs, if you can make it last for multiple combats. But the thing about that is that at low levels, you're unlikely to keep concentration on it up for more than a few hits, so it's unlikely to make it through more than 1, maybe 2 combats. And when you're higher level and have that Aura (and maybe Res Con or War Caster), you've got enough spell slots to cast a better spell in almost every single combat.

But you're going to have to clarify the bolded part for me? How does disadvantage on Str checks help against the foes of a party with a lot of GWMs? The only way I can think of to utilize Str disadvantage is through proning and grappling an enemy. But a GWM build needs both hands for their heavy weapon, so they're unable to grapple. Grappling and GWM are a bit mutually exclusive, no? Even Trip attacks are saving throws, not ability checks. So are you thinking that one of the (Str-based) GWM users is foregoing GWM/attacks to grapple/prone, and the others are capitalizing? If not, what's your thinking here?

I think maybe they mean disadv to help shove prone and then use prone for advantage to offset the -5 from GWM?

[Zuras]

I think maybe they mean disadv to help shove prone and then use prone for advantage to offset the -5 from GWM?

Yes. Disadvantage on Str checks means it’s easy to knock enemies prone. If you’re playing with a melee GWM fighter, knocking them prone can lead to a lot of extra damage with the advantage.

I agree that Bless is usually a better use of your concentration, but it’s a full action to cast. It’s not usually worth skipping a turn of attacks to cast just for the offensive benefits.

[strangebloke]

hexblade is good because its incredibly frontloaded. Normally Paladins are MAD and want 3 good stats. DEX/CON/CHA or STR/CON/CHA. They also want a lot of feats for damage or utility. There's an inherent tradeoff here. Dexadins have stealth, better skill use, better ranged options, and better initiative, but they need to focus DEX to keep their AC competitive, which makes feats and +CHA increases more expensive. The STR decouples your AC from your stats, and makes it easier to invest in Inspiring Leader or +CHA or Warcaster or whatever, but this sadly leaves you as a STR build, which is less than ideal.

Enter the hexblade.

AC? Not a problem. DEX builds give 17 starting AC with a starting 16 in DEX. Mediocre AC and expensive. STR builds give 19-20 AC with 15 STR once you get the money. Good AC and moderate investment. Hexadins get 18-19 AC with a 14 in DEX. That's basically free! Your damage is tied to CHA. You will hit harder than a STR-adin who focused CHA, while also having comparable CHA. You can spread out your good stats at character creation more, have a character with decent wisdom and intelligence as well as everything else.

And yeah, warlock was already a good MC for Paladin. Sure, its only one spell slot. But consider a day with 2 short rests. The 6th level mono-classed paladin has 2 2nd level slots and 3 1st level slots. The warlock 1 / paladin 5 has 2 2nd level slots and 6 first level slots. And first level slots are really good! Shield, Bless, Shield of Faith. Heck, smite is a good use for a first level spell slot.

Assuming something like 2 short rests and 5 encounters lasting 4 rounds each, those three extra slots convert to +1.35 DPR if you just use them for smite. And hexblade's curse adds far, far more than that, and there are far better uses for a slot than smite. And Eldritch blast gives you a decent ranged option. And other cantrips like minor illusion are actually insanely good. And... man, do I need to go on?

Sure. It delays your features by 1 level.

But its only one level.

[Pex]

You can still max Cha on a Paladin without going hexblade dip early.

As an example, one can be variant human and start with 16 cha, 16 str, 15 con (sets up for resilient con to 16 con later) and PAM (variant human feat) while having 8 dex, 8 int, 8 wis.

Dropping str to 15 presuming you are going for a hexblade dip early could mean 16 con now (making resilient con less appealing later) or 10 dex/wis. In either case you see a fairly small benefit from just the sad cha until quite a bit later. It's really the other benfits of hexblade early that really make it worthwhile to consider. The Cantrips, the spell list, hexblade's curse, etc.

From where I'm sitting it seems that hexblades CHA sadness is only going to really have the possibility of paying off later. It's only clearly better at level 14+. Earlier it's really the other benefits of the warlock that keep it appealing.

Of course you can. There are no D&D police to make you do otherwise. If you will use high ST anyway for 6 levels of paladin first then hexblade isn't offering anything more special than any other warlock. Warlock in general is a good fit for multiclassing. They all offer their own goodies. Paladins have been multiclassing warlock long before hexblade existed. The special point of going hexblade is to get and use CH as your attack stat, never use ST unless you want heavy armor at 1st level but not necessary, and that's why it's taken early.

[Dork_Forge]

hexblade is good because its incredibly frontloaded. Normally Paladins are MAD and want 3 good stats. DEX/CON/CHA or STR/CON/CHA. They also want a lot of feats for damage or utility. There's an inherent tradeoff here. Dexadins have stealth, better skill use, better ranged options, and better initiative, but they need to focus DEX to keep their AC competitive, which makes feats and +CHA increases more expensive. The STR decouples your AC from your stats, and makes it easier to invest in Inspiring Leader or +CHA or Warcaster or whatever, but this sadly leaves you as a STR build, which is less than ideal.

Enter the hexblade.

AC? Not a problem. DEX builds give 17 starting AC with a starting 16 in DEX. Mediocre AC and expensive. STR builds give 19-20 AC with 15 STR once you get the money. Good AC and moderate investment. Hexadins get 18-19 AC with a 14 in DEX. That's basically free! Your damage is tied to CHA. You will hit harder than a STR-adin who focused CHA, while also having comparable CHA. You can spread out your good stats at character creation more, have a character with decent wisdom and intelligence as well as everything else.

And yeah, warlock was already a good MC for Paladin. Sure, its only one spell slot. But consider a day with 2 short rests. The 6th level mono-classed paladin has 2 2nd level slots and 3 1st level slots. The warlock 1 / paladin 5 has 2 2nd level slots and 6 first level slots. And first level slots are really good! Shield, Bless, Shield of Faith. Heck, smite is a good use for a first level spell slot.

Assuming something like 2 short rests and 5 encounters lasting 4 rounds each, those three extra slots convert to +1.35 DPR if you just use them for smite. And hexblade's curse adds far, far more than that, and there are far better uses for a slot than smite. And Eldritch blast gives you a decent ranged option. And other cantrips like minor illusion are actually insanely good. And... man, do I need to go on?

Sure. It delays your features by 1 level.

But its only one level.

Hmm, this doesn't feel complete:

AC - If your criticism of Dexadins is mediocre AC... then why not just slap them in the same medium armor the Hexblade is wearing until Dex exceeds the benefits? Wearing medium armor is not a benefit of Hexblade to a Paladin, ever. It was already a choice they had available.

Slots - the slots are wrong on the Pal 6/Hex 1, it should be 7 1st level, not 6. There is some nuance to be had here with Harness Divine Power, but that's dependent on Oath and levels involved.

Hexblade's Curse - The value of this is so dependent on various things I wouldn't label it a straight benefit at all. It's only particularly valuable if you're routinely in encounters with medium or above toughness enemies, since you can't move it around. It also contributes to bonus action clog, this will vary based on your build but the Vengeance Paladin is an excellent example: Vow of Emnity, Hunter's Mark, Misty Step are all great options before things like PAM and TWF are considered.

Stats - I'm not sure why you're talking about spreading around your stats more? You're Cha focused, but need a minimum of Str 13, Dex 14 if you're going medium armor, and the usual solid Con score. Even going with a Half -Elf that's using Str for AC, you're not ending up with a good array:

Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 17

Can you move some stuff around? Sure, but it isn't moving the needle on other stats by more than 1 or so, and that's only a 14 Con.


My question would be, is this (in your opinion) so much obviously better than 1 level in Divine Soul or Celestial 'lock?

[strangebloke]

Hmm, this doesn't feel complete:

AC - If your criticism of Dexadins is mediocre AC... then why not just slap them in the same medium armor the Hexblade is wearing until Dex exceeds the benefits? Wearing medium armor is not a benefit of Hexblade to a Paladin, ever. It was already a choice they had available.

Slots - the slots are wrong on the Pal 6/Hex 1, it should be 7 1st level, not 6. There is some nuance to be had here with Harness Divine Power, but that's dependent on Oath and levels involved.

Hexblade's Curse - The value of this is so dependent on various things I wouldn't label it a straight benefit at all. It's only particularly valuable if you're routinely in encounters with medium or above toughness enemies, since you can't move it around. It also contributes to bonus action clog, this will vary based on your build but the Vengeance Paladin is an excellent example: Vow of Emnity, Hunter's Mark, Misty Step are all great options before things like PAM and TWF are considered.

Stats - I'm not sure why you're talking about spreading around your stats more? You're Cha focused, but need a minimum of Str 13, Dex 14 if you're going medium armor, and the usual solid Con score. Even going with a Half -Elf that's using Str for AC, you're not ending up with a good array:

Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 17

Can you move some stuff around? Sure, but it isn't moving the needle on other stats by more than 1 or so, and that's only a 14 Con.


My question would be, is this (in your opinion) so much obviously better than 1 level in Divine Soul or Celestial 'lock?

AC - Yes, Dexadins can use breastplates, but even so their AC will be pretty poor compared to a hexblade when using ranged weapons. I should have mentioned this initially, admittedly. It is the correct way to start with a DEXadin.

Slots - The marginal increase I mentioned is still the same. It's still +1.35 DPR even if you never do anything but smite.

Curse - It's an additional resource pool on par with a 1st level spell that refreshes on a short rest. How is that not a purely good thing? And yes, you could take other spells and abilities that would serve a comparable role, like Hunter's Mark or Hex, but those use concentration and spell slots. Having curse to use instead of those while also concentrating on bless or shield of faith or whatever is very good. Curse is not situational, its a BA ability that effectively deals damage, and scales with level. It's good. Yes, spells like misty step are also good, but you're not casting misty step every round and you're not cursing every round either.

Stats - I was going to write a larger post, but come on. Being SAD is very good, I don't know why this would be controversial. 14 DEX isn't expensive. Its demonstrably cheaper than what a DEXadin or a STRadin would want. The array you use isn't a hexblade array - hexblades almost never use heavy armor. A hexadin can have 20 in both their casting and attack stat at level 4, a straight class paladin can have two 18s in those stats at best. A single class paladin that wants 16 CON will have to dump all their spare stat points into that. A hexadin can still have a 12 to throw in WIS or wherever.

Divine Soul and Celestial Lock are also good, but for other reasons. Overall, I would say sorcerer is better if you spend more time there. Level 1, hexblade is the better dip.

[bid]

Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 17

Can you move some stuff around? Sure, but it isn't moving the needle on other stats by more than 1 or so, and that's only a 14 Con.
Str15 Dex10 Con16 Int8 Wis10 Cha16

Not that there's anything wrong with Con14 for any class.