[3.5] Uses For Those "Other" Knowledge Skills

[Thurbane]

So, in core, we have 10 subskill of Knowledge. Of these 10, 6 are tied to creature types, allowing identification of those creatures, and with a decent roll, some of the abilities and weaknesses.

So that leaves these 4:


Architecture and engineering (buildings, aqueducts, bridges, fortifications) [5 ranks gets +2 bonus to certain Search checks]
Geography (lands, terrain, climate, people) [5 ranks gets +2 bonus to certain Survival checks]
History (royalty, wars, colonies, migrations, founding of cities) [5 ranks gets +2 bonus to Bardic Knowledge checks]
Nobility and royalty (lineages, heraldry, family trees, mottoes, personalities) [5 ranks gets +2 bonus to Diplomacy checks]

Aside from meeting feat/PrC reqs, or taking 5 ranks for synergy, what are the practical uses of the Knowledge skills?

I had a quick look here https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?514547 - seems there are some niche additional uses for most of these.


A&E: assaulting a stronghold, large vessel design, structures that act as a spellbook
Geo: navigation, piloting
Hist: army organization, determine things about magic items,
N&R: identify heraldry, bypass assistants, patronage to a house

Note that a lot of these really offer nothing mechanical, but are more or less just additional examples and DCs of how the skill could be used.

Is it fair to say, other than that, most uses of these skills is going to be quite adventure specific? I know one DM I game with, in particular, looooves using Knowledge (history) checks to give out adventure clues, if the party gets stuck or hits a dead end.

Basically, just looking for any tips or tricks involving these 4 lesser-use Knowledge skills, and would love to hear anecdotes of how you've used them in your games.

Cheers - T

[loky1109]

would love to hear anecdotes of how you've used them in your games.
A&E - this wall is thicker than it should be. Is there secret passage?


for any tips or tricks involving these 4 lesser-use Knowledge skills
A&E - identify that Caryatid Column "serves no structural purpose since it bears none of the ceiling's weight".

Also, different Knowledges can be presented in PrC's Lore sections. Lord of Tides has Geography, Ashworm Dragoon, Scorpion Heritor and Sand Shaper - History.
There is DC 1- check Appraise or Knowledge (nature or geography) "to determine salt is fairly pure, if a little gritty" in the Sandstorm Web Enhancement adventure.

[Jay R]

In general, this depends tremendously on the DM. Lots of skills do. For instance, if a DM never attacks with undead, then turning undead has no value. If the PCs will be transported to a wilderness for the entire campaign, then the Appraise skill has little value. If nobody tries to capture the PCs, then Escape Artist isn’t needed. For the same reasons, if the DM never has the plot turn around a crucial aspect of history, then Knowledge (history) has no value.

Having said that, here are ways the DM can choose to make these skills valuable

Architecture and engineering: figuring out where secret rooms might be, what purpose this room layout had, how to repair this siege engine, etc.

Geography: “I can’t see the vestiges of the ancient road here, but we know it wouldn’t have gone over the ridge, so let’s follow the valley and try to pick it up later.”
“If the enemy army is crossing those mountains to attack us, they will come out of this canyon. Let’s set up our ambush here.”
“The hidden Marsh of Tode won’t be west of us; it’s too dry for a marsh. We’re looking for a low flat place with lots of water but little runoff.”

History: Maybe one of the most important knowledge skills in my world right now. The Chaos that is slowly taking over the wilderness and encroaching on all civilized areas has been here before. The PCs will need to find out where it came from, what it did, and how it was defeated before.

Nobility and royalty: when the plot is tied to politics, you really need to know who is allied to whom, and who is opposed by whom. Also, should you loudly raise your goblet to the duke when you reach a new town? It might be a huge mistake, or it might be absolutely necessary. It depends on what the duke has done which affected that town.

But it depends on the DM.

[Inevitability]

Wisdom of the Measure (Ex): At 6th level, the Rose Knight may attempt to use his extensive knowledge of the Solamnic Measure to give him guidance. Twice per day, the Rose Knight may make a DC 15 Knowledge (nobility and royalty) check. Success grants the Rose Knight knowledge equivalent to tan augury spell cast by a cleric of equal level. The knowledge granted by this ability is always in the form of a historical anecdote, proverb, or law written in the Measure.

Knight of the Rose from dragonlance gets to replicate Augury with a check, in the proud tradition of PrCs giving your martial character a spell-like ability that's a worse version of what the cleric could do twelve levels ago.

[Biggus]

Also in the "depends on the campaign" section: in worlds which have a higher tech level than the default medieval setting, A&E will have more uses. In industrial revolution-like settings such as Eberron, it will have LOT more uses.

[Troacctid]

I've found that the most relevant use for A&E has been determining which walls are load-bearing for characters with access to Mountain Hammer. The most relevant use for N&R is, of course, the +2 to Diplomacy.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

For a purely mechanical use, Heroes of Battle has the... Strategic Advantage system, I think it was called? Relevant knowledge skills can be used to gain victory points before the battle even starts, moving your side closer to winning. Knowledge (geography) in particular is going to be relevant for almost any battle, and A&E can be used if either side is using fortifications.

[ShurikVch]

Well, according to the Completely Dysfunctional Handbook [3.5] (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5), Knowledge (Nobility and royalty) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=13194591&postcount=621) allow you to know who your parents are:

And the best one of the hilarious knowledges we missed is that according to the general rules for knowledge checks, Know (Nobility and Royalty) includes family trees. Good luck Bob the Commoner, knowing who your mom and grandma are.
And Knowledge (History) (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=11895594&postcount=387) allow you to predict the future:

Oh, yes, and History: the DC15 check that makes Divination useless. Specifically: "Determine approximate date of a specific event". Note that it does NOT say that the event has to have already happened.

[Particle_Man]

I've found that the most relevant use for A&E has been determining which walls are load-bearing for characters with access to Mountain Hammer. The most relevant use for N&R is, of course, the +2 to Diplomacy.

Roy found that useful too in his last battle against Thog. :smallsmile:

[ericgrau]

Ya I'd say at least 3 of them are huge:

A&E: Questions about the dungeon itself or other map backgrounds. Not to be confused with dungeoneering which is actually about cave nature.
Geo: Knowing about boundaries, kingdoms, large scale terrain. Anything on the world map rather than the battle map. Not to be confused with local which is more about street knowledge.
History: Kind of like Geo but in the past.
N&R: Geo + History but too specifically about rich folk to be found in a history book or regional guidebook. Honestly hard to use unless someone rich is involved in the plot.

[Jay R]

There is a sometimes-crucial distinction between the skill checks that the DM calls for, and the skill checks that the player calls for.

When there is somebody waiting in ambush, then the DM says, “Make a Spot check,” or “Make a Listen check.” Or you’re facing an underground creature, and the DM says, “Make a Knowledge (dungeoneering) check.” The DM decides when the skill is usable, and the player has very little effect on how often it comes into play.

There are also skills that the player decides to use.
“I’m trying to get the crowd on our side. I pull out my harp and make a Perform (stringed instrument) check.”
“We need horseshoes. I go into the smithy and make a Craft (blacksmith) check.”
“This town is named Kingsbane? That might be important. Is there a story about how it came to be called that? I make a Knowledge (history) check.”
“The baron’s soldiers are hassling us. I want to use the baron’s motto in the conversation, to imply that I’m working for him too. I make a Knowledge (nobility and royalty) check.”

The value of these skills is based on the player’s ability to come up with uses for it. If the player never thinks of a use for it, then it’s useless for that player -- just as a harp you never play is worthless.

[Paragon]

I've seen a weaponized Know History build about Ghulurak. You can find this info in the DMGII when it mentions the Killing Frost.
Daremetoidareu has a reallllly extensive knowledge handbook (in which I found the former Ghulurak) here https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?514547