Iaijutsu Focus in 3.5; how should the skill have been changed?

[Jervis]

First I should say that I don’t dislike Iaijutsu Focus, I actually love the skill and it’s unique position as a damaging skill in martial class optimization. I was working on some homebrew options including some martial initiators and something I can only describe as the unholy love child of Iaijutsu Master and Truenamer when it kind of occurred to me how jank the skill is over all.

The skill is infamously unupdated 3.0 jank and builds focused around it are usually gnomish quickrazor feint and ball bearing builds that cheese it to apply to as many attacks as possible. I wouldn’t consider these extremely degenerate or anything but the repeated sheathing and unsheathing jank is somewhat immersion breaking. I was implementing it as a skill for a martial discipline and working around with some alternative uses for the skill when it occurred to me that a complete rework might be better.

Now this isn’t a homebrew thread for the classes and rules I’ve made, this is more a discussion of how you think this skill should have been fixed or tweaked in a hypothetical 3.5 update to the rules that takes how people use it into account. Something I considered was rolling it into a larger skill focused on general weapon mastery with Iaijutsu bonus damage only applying on draw attacks while the skill itself has other uses including a smaller bonus damage progression for just attacking flat footed enemies. I would like to hear thoughts on how you would fix the skill.

[Elves]

I think it's out of place as a skill. The idea of a skill in this game is that you get a bonus to a particular, specialized use of an ability check. In 5e they emphasized this even more, calling a skill check an Intelligence (Spellcraft) check for example. I think that's the direction to double down on in order to keep skills distinct from other stuff.

[Ashtagon]

Assuming we keep it at all, I would make the following changes:

1) Only useable once per round.

2) A weapon can only benefit from this skill against a specific opponent once per day.

This doesn't quite avoid the "beltful of short swords" issue, but that's what encumbrance rules are for.

[loky1109]

2) A weapon can only benefit from this skill against a specific opponent once per day.

I should ask. Why?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'd make it a series of feats, rather than a skill. The first feat is basically the current skill (at max or close to max ranks), with iterative feats grafting useful abilities onto it (one for +2 damage per die, several for save vs bonus effects like blindness, etc).

The PrC can grant those as bonus feats, and also give even more goodies for it, unique to the class.

[Jervis]

I should ask. Why?
Probably to kill the emersion braking aspects of builds that sheathe and unsheathe 5 times a turn. I personally don't have a issue with the extra damage but i don't like the weirdness in universe of sheathing your sword to deal more damage.

Assuming we keep it at all, I would make the following changes:

1) Only useable once per round.

2) A weapon can only benefit from this skill against a specific opponent once per day.

This doesn't quite avoid the "beltful of short swords" issue, but that's what encumbrance rules are for.

I wouldn't want to kill the possibility of making builds around it but at the same time if I suppose thats what feats and class features are for instead of making the skill itself and ways to proc it using its base rules the focus.

[loky1109]

Probably to kill the emersion braking aspects of builds that sheathe and unsheathe 5 times a turn. I personally don't have a issue with the extra damage but i don't like the weirdness in universe of sheathing your sword to deal more damage.
Thare isn't that issue. Only weapon what you can sheath more than once in a turn is quickrazor. Just ban quickrazor. Or say Iaijutsu works only with blades and sheaths.

[Jervis]

Thare isn't that issue. Only weapon what you can sheath more than once in a turn is quickrazor. Just ban quickrazor. Or say Iaijutsu works only with blades and sheaths.

I’ve considered making Iaijutsu only work with masterwork bastard swords before for thematic reasons but decided against it. To be honest the main issue is that it’s either gnomish quickrazor or carrying 50 weapons and dropping them. That kinda goes against the fantasy of skill for optimization reasons. I don’t mind optimization in general, I just get annoyed when the optimization is something like “I must stand in this jar of dirt for the next two levels or else I loose my class features.” Or a swordsman who drops his weapon 3-4 times a round. That’s part of why I was trying to find a fix for it.

[Eurus]

My instinct is to treat it more like a combat maneuver. Standard action to draw a weapon and attack, with a bonus based on your iaijutsu check. Improved Iaijutsu feat lets you do it on a charge or as the start of a full attack (but you only get the damage bonus to the first attack). Make it a class skill or available through an ACF for fighters.

[Doctor Despair]

First, we acknowledge that the devs probably only meant for it to be used 1/turn. Therefore, a revision of the skill should probably encompass that.

Next, we acknowledge that the devs probably only meant for it to be used with the weapon drawn (rather than drawing one weapon, then attacking with another for the bonus). Therefore, a revision of the skill should probably encompass that.

Finally, we acknowledge that we should resist the urge to take away nice things from martials, so for everything we take away, we should offer something of equivalent value in return.

As a result, I propose the following changes:

1. Use of IF is a skill trick that keys off of Sleight of Hand; Concentration is also fitting thematically, but is much more accessible to casters and less accessible to martials, so I prefer SoH. All classes that had IF as a class skill gain SoH as a class skill. It may therefore only be used once per encounter, or once every ten rounds out of combat.

2. The strike made with IF must be made with the weapon that was drawn.

3. You may use IF in lieu of an initiative check regardless of whether or not the opponent agrees to participate in a formal iaijutsu duel; this is a large increase in power to the skill, but already uses a mechanism in the skill.

[loky1109]

1. Use of IF is a skill trick that keys off of Sleight of Hand; Concentration is also fitting thematically, but is much more accessible to casters and less accessible to martials, so I prefer SoH. All classes that had IF as a class skill gain SoH as a class skill. It may therefore only be used once per encounter, or once every ten rounds out of combat.

Sleight of Hand is totally misconnection. IF isn't about hiding items and pick-poketing. Concentration is more more closer.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It'd make more sense if it was based on your attack bonus, rather than a skill.

[loky1109]

It'd make more sense if it was based on your attack bonus, rather than a skill.
It's very in-system to make skill checks for using martial maneuvers. ToB is full of examples.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's very in-system to make skill checks for using martial maneuvers. ToB is full of examples.Iaijutsu is a real life technique (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaijutsu) and fighting style that encompasses a significant amount of training to perfect in the same way that tripping and disarming are. And skills are far too abusable to attempt to balance in 3e/PF. BAB is generally capped at your HD, at most.

Plus, none of the existing skills fit properly, various classes that would be most likely to make use of it don't share any skills, and making up a new skill leads to nobody but the factotum having it as a class skill.

Though if you made Iaiajutsu Focus a feat, you could grant the skill as a class skill, as well as a skill point to spend on it (since making the poor fighter pay one of his nonexistent skill points is just cruel).

[Doctor Despair]

Sleight of Hand is totally misconnection. IF isn't about hiding items and pick-poketing. Concentration is more more closer.

I assume you meant IS about hiding items and pick-pocketing, right? Sleight of Hand already involves just general skill with your hands. There is already a connection between sleight of hand and drawing weapons in a skillful way (drawing hidden weapons). As I said though, concentration is appropriate. I had worry about spellcasters natively having it as a class skill, but I suppose it already requires you to immediately make a melee attack after drawing the weapon, so it's not as though they are going to be using that surprise round to cast spells. There is the niche use that it would allow them not to be flat-footed though, and use immediate-action spells... Hm. I stand by my recommendation: sleight of hand is a better skill to key it off of. It's still in-flavor for skillful use of hands while drawing weapons, and it's sleightly more balanced in favor of martials.

Edit: Using BAB is interesting as Maxi said, but it would take a long time to out-pace just taking Improved Initiative. Unless you want to rework the entire table for damage, the fact that BAB scales less/slower than skills also hurts it. Maybe using 2xBAB+cha would be appropriate. At level 5, a fighter would have +10 to their check from bab, whereas normally they would only have +8 from skills and maybe +2 from a masterwork tool. From there, it probably scales more in favor of the full bab character, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I still like the mechanic of just making it a skill trick though and allowing you to essentially force an opponent into an iaijutsu duel though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Maybe make iaijutsu focus keyed off of initiative, and you can only use it on any round of combat where you roll your initiative? Make the results devastating enough for the whole combat to be worth putting some focus in (damage + status effects), but it's not something you can use and abuse constantly.

[Doctor Despair]

Maybe make iaijutsu focus keyed off of initiative, and you can only use it on any round of combat where you roll your initiative? Make the results devastating enough for the whole combat to be worth putting some focus in (damage + status effects), but it's not something you can use and abuse constantly.

Making it keyed off of initiative and making no other changes would both reduce the damage you do and reduce the times you can use it without offering anything in exchange. Let martials have nice things. Keep the damage where it is (e.g., keep it based on a skill check like SoH or Concentration, or keep it based on 2xBAB), let it replace your initiative check, and make it a skill trick so you can only use it 1/encounter.

Alternatively, I guess you could make it just reward initiative-pumping and alter the entire table so you trigger the higher damage markers more consistently... I'd caution against that though, as that again just rewards casters who generally end up with better initiatives anyway. Additionally, making it keyed off of initiative means you can't use it in surprise rounds, which is weird and janky.

[loky1109]

I assume you meant IS about hiding items and pick-pocketing, right?
Iaijutsu Focus (IF) isn't!


There is already a connection between sleight of hand and drawing weapons in a skillful way (drawing hidden weapons).
I don't think it's enough.


As I said though, concentration is appropriate.
Concentration is good.

[pabelfly]

I assume you meant IS about hiding items and pick-pocketing, right? Sleight of Hand already involves just general skill with your hands. There is already a connection between sleight of hand and drawing weapons in a skillful way (drawing hidden weapons). As I said though, concentration is appropriate. I had worry about spellcasters natively having it as a class skill, but I suppose it already requires you to immediately make a melee attack after drawing the weapon, so it's not as though they are going to be using that surprise round to cast spells. There is the niche use that it would allow them not to be flat-footed though, and use immediate-action spells... Hm. I stand by my recommendation: sleight of hand is a better skill to key it off of. It's still in-flavor for skillful use of hands while drawing weapons, and it's sleightly more balanced in favor of martials.

Edit: Using BAB is interesting as Maxi said, but it would take a long time to out-pace just taking Improved Initiative. Unless you want to rework the entire table for damage, the fact that BAB scales less/slower than skills also hurts it. Maybe using 2xBAB+cha would be appropriate. At level 5, a fighter would have +10 to their check from bab, whereas normally they would only have +8 from skills and maybe +2 from a masterwork tool. From there, it probably scales more in favor of the full bab character, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I still like the mechanic of just making it a skill trick though and allowing you to essentially force an opponent into an iaijutsu duel though.

What about keying it off both Concentration and Sleight of Hand? It would be less prone to abuse since you need to maximize two skills with different stats and that seems to make sense to me thematically, since it's both a test of mental willpower and dexterity.

I'd have it used only after you draw your weapon, and if you sheathe your weapon, you can only unsheathed it next turn, again triggering Iaijutsu Focus.

[Darg]

Because of this flicking technique, drawing a quickrazor is always a free action, but at the end of your action, you must stow the quickrazor in order to use it properly again on your next turn. Stowing the weapon after attacking with it in this fashion is a free action.

There are constraints to how the weapon works. You can only draw the weapon once per action. As a DM it's easy enough to limit one quickrazor per hand because the sheath has to be tied to the wrist.

Personally, I think the skill is more broken with thrown weapons as it only requires drawing a melee weapon, not using melee weapons as melee weapons.

If it were to be updated to 3.5, I would keep it as a skill and make it only usable with melee attacks and only with the weapon that was just drawn. I would also add a stipulation that the character can't drop their weapon after making an attack with Iaijutsu focus until after their turn has ended. This would massively cut down on the exploitative behavior that can occur while also giving players the freedom to optimize its use.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An attack action (the length of time it takes to make one attack in a full-attack) is an action.

[Darg]

An attack action (the length of time it takes to make one attack in a full-attack) is an action.

That's a really loose way of looking at it. There is no support for this theory and requires extrapolation. Otherwise things that work on an attack action can be done multiple times during a full attack. Spring attack is one of those things for movement x number of attacks.


action: A character activity. Actions are divided into the following categories, according to the time required to perform them (from most time required to least): full-round actions, standard actions, move actions, and free actions.

A full attack isn't multiple standard actions.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That's a really loose way of looking at it. There is no support for this theory and requires extrapolation. Otherwise things that work on an attack action can be done multiple times during a full attack. Spring attack is one of those things for movement x number of attacks.

A full attack isn't multiple standard actions.

It's in the name. Attack action. Not sure how an attack action isn't an action.

If it's literally named "action," then it's probably an action. Just saying.

[Crake]

That's a really loose way of looking at it. There is no support for this theory and requires extrapolation. Otherwise things that work on an attack action can be done multiple times during a full attack. Spring attack is one of those things for movement x number of attacks.

They... can be. You can trip, or attempt a grapple, or disarm on EACH of your full attack attacks. Each of those is an attack action that can be done for every attack in a full attack.


A full attack isn't multiple standard actions.

Irrelevant. An attack action is not a standard action, it's an action that CAN BE performed in isolation as a standard action, but it is not exclusively one. Even your attack of opportunities are attack actions, and in fact, many builds are predicated on the notion that you can perform special attack actions on an attack of opportunity, such as trip-centric builds.

[Thurbane]

Not that this really goes to the heart of most of the issues raised above, but, one small home brew change I've considered for my game: making it a trained only skill.

As it stands, every Joe-schmo and creature that draws a weapon and strikes a flat-footed opponent is technically entitled to a Cha check for bonus damage...

[Telonius]

Often the "how do we fix this?" questions boil down to, "what do you want this to do instead of what it does now?"

Personally I think situation was created in an attempt to model something that the system isn't totally good at modeling: that one scene in samurai movies where the two guys stare down each other, give a kiai shout, charge, jump, strike faster than anyone can see, and then one of them comes down in two pieces. The Iajutsu Duel mechanics were made to model that. And that's a cool thing to try to model! If you're making a character in Rokugan, that seems like the sort of thing you'd want your master samurai to be able to do.

The problem was that, when they did this, it didn't fit in cleanly with any of the existing skills. So they said, "Okay, let's make a new skill specifically for it." So, Iajutsu Focus became a thing. I'm guessing that in the playtesting, somebody said, "Hey, this is awesome, but it's really situational. I don't know that I'd want to sink too many skill points in it, if it's only going to come up like once or twice a campaign." So they said, "Okay, let's say you can get the bonus ... eh, anytime your enemy is flat-footed," intending for it to be a first-round-of-combat thing. But that was in 3.0, and the number of ways to flat-foot your enemy has greatly proliferated since then.

Personally this is what I like about the skill: it lets you model something awesome that you otherwise couldn't, it gives a Nice Thing to melee, and it takes something that would otherwise be really situational into something that's more general-use.

What I don't like about it: unintended consequences. It's too easy to get, can happen more than once in a round (with certain builds), and is almost never actually used for the thing it was supposed to model to begin with (that samurai duel scene).

So, how would I fix things so we keep the Pros and get rid of the Cons?

Get rid of the skill. Make "Iajutsu Focus" a Skill Trick (meaning, you get it once per encounter), using Concentration where you'd have used Iajutsu Focus previously. Prereqs: Quick Draw, probably several ranks in Concentration, maybe a BAB requirement, and possibly some other skill. (Sleight of Hand was mentioned, that could work). Fluff it that any self-respecting Samurai would take the skill trick as soon as they qualify for it.

[Jervis]

One of my main issues with concentration, a issue that was mentioned elsewhere here, is that it’s more a caster skill so the class that uses it the most would be melee clerics. Sleight of Hand was also mentioned but that also doesn’t quite fit the bill. I also like the idea of keeping it charisma based. Something I considered was making it a subset of perform, I also considered pulling a profession executioner and making it a profession with a situational combat use. Some other thing I mentioned in the homebrew I was hammering away at was making the skill more of a general sword or weapon focused skill with some more situational combat uses similar to bluff, in this case making it a skill you can use to defend against disarm and sunder attempts as well as making it the designated do cool weapon thing skill for stuff like stabbing with a slashing weapon or overcoming hardness or something. In this case Iaijutsu proper would be a skill trick that uses said skill, there would also be more of those to give more uses for it. But that’s very heavily outside of update territory.

[Telonius]

Charisma-based does sound good. If you're looking for something that martials might have reason to take already, how about Intimidate? Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, Knight, and Samurai get it as a class skill already. (Paladin and Ranger don't, but at least Paladin's probably going to have a high Charisma to begin with; and it doesn't really seem like a Ranger thing to get). Basing it on Intimidate could give it a kind of "ki battle" feel.

[Doctor Despair]

Intimidate could work if you fluff it that way, and it does retain the cha-usage, which is probably desirable in the interest of changing as little as possible. With that said: changing it to a skill trick with prereqs is a strict downgrade in its current power (which isn't overwhelming). Likewise, restricting it to the weapon you drew to trigger it is a strict downgrade in its current power (which isn't overwhelming). I think it needs an on-theme upside. I suggested replacing initiative to allow skilled melee martials to go first more often than not.

Here's another thought: keep IF as a skill. Require a skill trick to actually use it so that you automatically gate it to 1/encounter. That way we can stop arguing about which skill is most fitting to replace it haha.

[Thurbane]

I kinda get what IF is trying to model (I haven't watched a hole bunch of martial arts movies, but what springs to mind from me is the scene from Predators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV739GC2dr0).

Maybe a stupid question, but how is this really distinct from Sudden Strike or other forms of precision damage?

How is it different than, say, the Insightful Strike maneuver, where you use a concentration check to determine you damage?

...not trying to say IF shouldn't be a thing, just wondering if any other existing mechanics model what it is supposed to represent?

[Jervis]

I kinda get what IF is trying to model (I haven't watched a hole bunch of martial arts movies, but what springs to mind from me is the scene from Predators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV739GC2dr0).

Maybe a stupid question, but how is this really distinct from Sudden Strike or other forms of precision damage?

How is it different than, say, the Insightful Strike maneuver, where you use a concentration check to determine you damage?

...not trying to say IF shouldn't be a thing, just wondering if any other existing mechanics model what it is supposed to represent?

Really making it precision damage makes sense but the issue is that it currently occupies a niche as a skill that any martial character can invest in to a degree. If it was a class feature or a maneuver then it just becomes part of that kit.

[Doctor Despair]

I kinda get what IF is trying to model (I haven't watched a hole bunch of martial arts movies, but what springs to mind from me is the scene from Predators: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WV739GC2dr0).

Maybe a stupid question, but how is this really distinct from Sudden Strike or other forms of precision damage?

How is it different than, say, the Insightful Strike maneuver, where you use a concentration check to determine you damage?

...not trying to say IF shouldn't be a thing, just wondering if any other existing mechanics model what it is supposed to represent?

I would think Iaijutsu Focus is more like this, to be honest (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz3vZ-OE6_g).

With that said: IF is probably more about blinding speed than the precision to strike vulnerable points like precision damage implies.

[Saintheart]

...not trying to say IF shouldn't be a thing, just wondering if any other existing mechanics model what it is supposed to represent?

And this is where the thinking really needs to start, because what people are mostly doing in this thread is fiddling around with the mechanics and dynamics rather than sitting down and giving some solid thought to the actual aesthetic they want to capture.

Iaijutsu is, as some said, a real-world skill. Going by the bland Wikipedia version of it, it wasn't really designed as an actual technique on a battlefield but more as a surprise strike or counterattack-based tactic. The question being: do you want that sort of aesthetic in your D&D? If so, then Iaijutsu Focus in its 3.0 form was about as close as D&D gets to "representing" the "real" world: iaijutsu there is highly specialised, more for duels, usable only at the outset of an engagement if in combat at all, and most importantly, confined to a particular culture if not a highly specific setting - Rokugan.

Generally it seems to me that people are wanting to do "something" with Iaijutsu Focus, but they don't know exactly what. They know with vague appeals to "taste" or "cheese" that the build of throwing iterative katanas or doing tons of weapon draws and sheathing (I like the Cursed Sword option for this better) is gauche, but they don't know what exactly they want the technique to do. Which is why we've got all this dancing around different mechanisms to make it operate; because nobody has a clear idea of what characters should be able to use iaijutsu, in what situations and, most importantly, with what consequence.

What characters do you want to be able to use this? Everyone? Martials? Skillmonkeys? Do you actually want the Factotum to be the guy who can kill people with one fast strike? Clerics have lots of techniques for increasing their CHA bonuses, and indeed it's handy for turning or fuelling DMM -- and they have Concentration as a class skill. It's pretty simple to artificially boost a CHA check for Iaijutsu Focus into the stratosphere with a combination of Marshal 1 and other bits and pieces (maybe Warlock 1? Anyway, others I can't be bothered thinking about right now.)

What situations do you want to be able to use this? Okay, combat. Right, then how often? Once per encounter is nice and all, but the technique had better deliver some serious bang for buck or it'll not get used for the same reason most skill tricks don't get used: because it's practically useless outside specific builds where the designers didn't think through the combos that could be pulled off, i.e. just another gauche Lego brick in the wall.

And with what consequence? I can give you something that very nicely approximates the "anime" or "pop" representation of Iaijutsu and outdamages Iaijutsu Focus reliably -- it's called an ubercharger build with Quick Draw. Suddenly close with the enemy, pull your weapon, and the person disappears in a mist of blood. Or not even Quick Draw, since it's possible to pull a weapon as part of a move action. Point being, do you want Iaijutsu Focus to just be a 'thing' that someone can take, something interesting that melee can do, or do you want it to seriously compete with other forms of damage at higher levels? Remember, the maximum spank available from Iaijutsu Focus specifically tops out at 9d6 damage + 1d6 damage from a specific ancestor feat in OA (which possibly isn't Iaijutsu Focus damage as such) + CHA damage on each IF bonus dice if you're going to suffer through to Iaijutsu Master 5. That's 10d6+9xCHA damage at maximum, before you start to get into petty, mendacious arguments about whether Iaijutsu Focus (a) is precision damage and therefore can be locked out even more than sneak attack can (it isn't) and (b) whether it's multiplied on a critical hit (it likely isn't.) Let's assume you max your CHA to 10; expected damage of around 120 or so. Nice if you can get it, sure, but that's as high as you go at around ECL 11 with 9 more levels to go.

Just saying - all the discussions about which skill should replace IF, or what triggering mechanic it should have, are really putting the cart before the horse. Start with what aesthetic you want from Iaijutsu Focus, work out the dynamics that create that aesthetic, and then select your mechanics that generate that dynamic.

[Morphic tide]

Existing functions of Iaijutsu Focus:

1. Bonus damage when attacking with a freshly-drawn weapon against a Flatfooted foe
2. Bonus damage against objects "assuming no distractions"
3. Bonus damage to the winner of an opposed check in a simultaneous charge

The complexity of the first use is well outside what 3.5 skills normally are. Arguments of being overly specific can be countered with "Truespeak" and "Use Rope". However, it does seem to operate backwards, in that it's a benefit based on the total you roll, not a benefit based on meeting a DC. The changes that come to mind are as follows:

1. Iaijutsu Strike as a specific task, like how Use Rope has Secure a Grappling Hook or Bluff has Feigning in Combat. Full-Round Action, DC 25 for the basic +1d6, +5 per additional +1d6 damage you want to get to the single attack made alongside the draw. Flatfooted is made a +10 Circumstance bonus instead of a requirement, thus making Feign helpful but non-essential. Similarly, you can take penalties or modified DCs to change the action economy, including the use of additional weapons in the action, with relevant feats giving compensating bonuses rather than being requirements to do it favorably.

2. Shatter the Stone as a specific task, defining the second case. Convert Break DCs from a Strength check into an Iaijutsu Focus skill check, making it so that the skill has SOME non-combat value, with modifiers giving some specific Sunder cases alongside doing it right in the midst of a fight. More "frilly", perhaps, but given Grappling Hook rules this kind of salami-slicing is hardly a new thing.

3. Define Iaijutsu Duel as a specific task instead of hanging out as a separate thing. Once more, penalties for more favorable use-cases, creating a basic decision point of two Samurai deciding whether to use their Daisho or not because it puts them at a disadvantage in the all-or-nothing but conversely gives more damage if they win... As well as trying to use it against people who aren't trying to Duel you.

The desired case is that Iaijutsu Master becomes an unironically good PRC because the skill is an unironically good build-around for a Martial to begin with. Much lower ceiling than the current Quickrazor cheese in raw damage and doesn't work for sword-chucking, but gains a lot of applicability from all the action economy benefits in the penalties. Ideal being that the inevitable Monk variant with Iaijutsu Master turns into a flash-stepping mook-blender, though the distribution of support for that is a whole other thing.

Edit: Notably, making the bonus damage just one check for a specific action makes it way easier to operate in play as it's a lot less rolls, and it cuts off a lot of the ridiculous combinations so it's much more specifically The Iaijutsu Skill, with some attached mechanics to branch out into more of the Anime-esque combat stuff that grew out of the series of exaggeration. Does mean that if you want it to interact with actual Sunders or actual Charges you need specific bits to do that, but it also means that the DC-per-d6 could actually be reduced without risking completely stupid stuff.

[Crake]

A solution to the spamming of drawing and striking could be to simply make it consume all your attacks in a round, and deal bonus damage for each attack you lose as a result? Perhaps increase the damage dice, going from 1d6->1d8->2d6->3d6->4d6->6d6 etc. Limit it to only main hand attacks with a sheathed weapon that were forgone, so offhand, natural, and unarmed strikes lost do not count. This does, interestingly enough, mean a monk with a ki katana would get bonus damage from forgoing their flurry.

This means that, if you had 4 bab attacks, and perhaps a bonus attack from haste, and maybe one from whirling frenzy, and flurry of blows, each of your iaijutsu focus damage dice steps would be 8d6, technically more damage than you would have gotten from all your attacks normally, but the extra takes into account lost offhand attacks for example. You would cap at 72d6 damage, and if you took iaijutsu master, that would be a whopping 72x cha modifier, which, sure is a lot of damage, but by the time youre rocking that many bonus attacks, that kind of damage isnt exactly unsurprising.

I would be tempted to give it some kind of charge mechanic, I’m not a fan of just making it a 1/encounter thing via skill tricks, perhaps make you require “gaining your iaijutsu focus” as a standard action (which would include the act of sheathing your weapon if it isnt already sheathed), similar to gaining a psionic focus, and being unable to attack without losing the focus. I would also be tempted to allow the user to roll their iaijutsu check when they gain their focus, allowing them to delay their strike in return for rerolling their iaijtsu focus check the next round, adding to the fantasy of “charging” an iaijtsu strike, maybe making the damage dice from each check stack, rather than replacing the roll entirely (capping at the normal 9x iaijutsu dice).

Also, allow focusing as a free action on your first round of combat, as long as your weapon is sheathed.

Edit: a good idea for a skill trick however, would be allowing your first iaijutsu strike per encounter to be performed without requiring a flat footed opponent, fluffed as catching opponents off guard by the power of your strike, but after that, they’re on guard and need to be off balanced to take advantage of it as normal.

Edit edit: maybe also make a feat that allows you to feint as a part of gaining your iaijutsu focus.

Finally home edit:

Okay, so let me actually actually make my list of proposed changes more concise and easy to read now that I'm home.

- Iaijutsu focus now requires a standard action to gain, much like psionic focus
--- This is a free action on the first round of combat, provided your weapon is sheathed and either in hand or on your hip.
--- Attacking without meeting the requirements for an iaijutsu strike will lose you your focus.
--- You roll your iaijutsu focus check when gaining your focus, so you know what your damage dice will be before you attack
--- You may continue to charge your focus, each time adding the damage dice together up to your normal cap of 9x your iaijutsu damage
- Skill trick allows you to, 1/encounter, ignore the flat-footed requirements for an iaijutsu strike
- Feat allows you to feint as part of the same action as gaining your iaijutsu focus (prerequisite: improved feint)
- When actually performing an iaijutsu strike, it is instead a standard action, and your iaijutsu damage increases by one die step for each extra main hand weapon attack you normally would have gained on a full attack
--- Bonus attacks include, but are not limited to: Whirling frenzy, haste, flurry of blows (if you're using a ki weapon that allows a monk to flurry of blows with the weapon), a speed weapon
--- Bonus attacks do NOT include, and are not limited to excluding: natural weapons, unarmed strikes, offhand attacks, bonus ranged attacks (such as rapid shot or greater manyshot), chance/proc-based extra attacks such as lightning maces, attacks of opportunity
--- Die size increase follows the progression in the PHB: 1d6->1d8->2d6->3d6->4d6->6d6->8d6->12d6->16d6 etc
----- Iaijutsu master's cha-per-damage-dice applies to all the damage dice, so if your base 1d6 becomes 3d6, you add 3x your cha mod per iaijutsu damage dice step, for a total maximum of 27x cha modifier.

[loky1109]

One time I wanted to make full martial discipline around IF. With stances, maneuver, etc. But I didn't.

[Darg]

They... can be. You can trip, or attempt a grapple, or disarm on EACH of your full attack attacks. Each of those is an attack action that can be done for every attack in a full attack.

Irrelevant. An attack action is not a standard action, it's an action that CAN BE performed in isolation as a standard action, but it is not exclusively one. Even your attack of opportunities are attack actions, and in fact, many builds are predicated on the notion that you can perform special attack actions on an attack of opportunity, such as trip-centric builds.

Maybe reread those special attacks. None of them mention replacing attack actions, only attacks. An attack of opportunity IS an attack but is not an action as defined by WotC, which is in a quote of the post you responded to.

The only special attack that replaces specifically the attack action is bull rush: "You can make a bull rush as a standard action (an attack) or as part of a charge (see Charge, below)." You cannot replace an attack of a full attack to bull rush.


It's in the name. Attack action. Not sure how an attack action isn't an action.

If it's literally named "action," then it's probably an action. Just saying.

WotC specifically defined what an action is. If you don't want to use that definition that's on you, not the rules.

[Ashiel]

To my understanding, Iaijutsu / Iaido is about making minimally wasted motions to quickly defeat an opponent quickly. IMHO, this implies it should not require you to be drawing the weapon to use the technique, it should allow you to draw the weapon as part of the technique.

The easiest way to handle this would be to allow the skill to be used when making an attack action but not a full attack action, inflicting the bonus damage appropriate to whatever method you use to scale (by default, your skill check result). As part of a successful check, you can also draw a weapon as part of the same action used to make the attack. The damage bonus stacks with any other damage bonuses applicable to the attack (such as weapon training, sneak attack, etc). Rather than requiring your foe to be flat footed, I'd have it treat the target as flat-footed if the weapon was drawn as part of the attack, but only once per 24 hours (as the enemy will be expecting it and on guard for a while).

No need to over complicate it. Just make it a skill for making a single powerful strike. :smallamused: