1st Fighter! PANIK

[stormsouldevil]

Hia! Im about to start my first fighter and I needs some advice.

Going to go Rune Knight. . Party so far is a barb, a druid, an artificer, and a warlock

2 handed weapon vs Sword and board?

For 2 handed- maul, great weapon fighting, great weapon master.

Or

Sword and shield, dueling. Sentinel.

[Mastikator]

IMO 2 handed if you have GWM, otherwise; sword and board. You could start out sword and board and then switch once you take the feat.
If you plan on standing within 5 feet of your allies in combat a lot then interception fighting style gives a ton of "healing" to your allies and works with both two handed and one handed.

[stormsouldevil]

RK is eventually going to be pretty reaction heavy. And I'm a Goliath so ill also want my reaction for stones endurance.

... now that I think about thst makes sentinel less then ideal as well.

Gwm ahoy!

[Greywander]

Rune Knights also make fantastic grapplers with minimal investment. You can consider carrying a versatile weapon like a longsword so that you can two-hand it when you're not grappling, but be able to grab someone without needing to pull out a different weapon.

It's not something you'll do all the time, but in the right circumstances it can really help. The only thing you're missing to become a top tier grappler is expertise in Athletics, which you can get with the Skill Expert feat. Remember, if you shove an enemy prone then all of their attacks are at disadvantage, while yours are at advantage. Also, they can't stand up as long as you're grappling them. It's really good at ruining a bad guy's day.

[Skrum]

I second the grapple option; Rune Knights are naturally good at it, and while it's not something you're going to use all the time, it's potentially extremely good. Is the druid going Moon? Pinning an opponent (grapple + prone) gives the rest of your team advantage on their melee attacks, so I would especially recommend this tactic if there's several melee characters in the group.

Cloud Rune is by far the best rune, so unless you have an incredibly compelling lore reason to not take it, you should take it. Stone and Fire Runes are both really solid. Fire can do quite a bit of damage, given time, while Stone's active ability is more niche - but, it does give you 120 ft dark vision, which is very enticing if your race lacks it. Frost Rune is definitely the weakest of the bunch (but not terrible-terrible, so if you like it, just go for it). Hill Rune is much better than Storm Rune, when/if you get to 7th.

I personally do not like Sentinel. Every single one of its abilities takes your reaction, so using the whole feat is bothersome and competes with several class abilities (like Cloud and Stone Rune). Its signature ability, reducing an opponent's movement to zero, specifically requires an opportunity attack, so triggering it with things like Brace and Riposte don't work (granted, not relevant to you).

I would recommend the following feats, in roughly this order: PAM, Skill Expert, ASI (Str), Lucky, Resil (Wis)
If you're variant human, I'd go PAM (bonus), Skill Expert, Piercer, ASI: str, Lucky, Resil (Wis)

Your weapon is going to be a spear. Yes, you'll lose damage, but you don't have much to do with your bonus action after Giant's Might, and an extra attack is really good (esp. with the damage Giant's Might grants, since you'll have an extra chance to trigger it). It's also versatile so you can switch to one-handed when you're grappling someone. With this build, take Cloud and Stone Rune as they don't take your bonus action to use.

Fighting Style-wise, you could go Dueling and always use your spear one-handed. This would make up for the -1 average damage a spear has compared to a longsword/battle axe/war hammer. This is probably the route I'd go, especially if you're going to be grappling a lot. Second option, Defense. +1 AC is just a solid option, and if you're not using a shield, it's especially nice. Finally, Blind Fighting is potentially really good, though it's going to depend on what kind of encounters your DM likes to do. It might be really good, or it might never come up. Overall, I would favor Dueling.

[stormsouldevil]

I admittedly don't much get grappling.

Like I don't see it as bad, but it seems like pure damage output is probably better most of the time-

With a melee rogue, that makes perfect sense. And I'm sure the barb would love it, but im just uncertain about it.

[Skrum]

I admittedly don't much get grappling.

Like I don't see it as bad, but it seems like pure damage output is probably better most of the time-

With a melee rogue, that makes perfect sense. And I'm sure the barb would love it, but im just uncertain about it.

When it works, it's incredibly good. When you get to 5th level, in a single turn you can bonus action Giant's Might, use your first attack to shove them prone, your second attack to grapple them, and then even Action Surge to attack twice. As long as you maintain the grapple, your entire team has advantage on their melee attacks, the grappled target has disadvantage on all of their attacks, and they can't move. If there was a spell that did this, it would be a very good spell. Further, they are potentially going to waste actions breaking out, which means you're winning in the action economy. And remember, it only takes one hand to grapple. If you have a one-handed weapon, you can grapple someone and still attack them (at advantage, if they're also prone).

More situationally, dragging enemies around is really good too. Through a spiked growth, off a cliff or other hazard, etc.

The weakness of grappling is it's pretty easy to break. Teleportation spells are auto-escape, as are any effects that involuntarily move you or them. But still, not every creature has those options, and if they don't, they're kinda screwed.

[stormsouldevil]

I second the grapple option; Rune Knights are naturally good at it, and while it's not something you're going to use all the time, it's potentially extremely good. Is the druid going Moon? Pinning an opponent (grapple + prone) gives the rest of your team advantage on their melee attacks, so I would especially recommend this tactic if there's several melee characters in the group.

Cloud Rune is by far the best rune, so unless you have an incredibly compelling lore reason to not take it, you should take it. Stone and Fire Runes are both really solid. Fire can do quite a bit of damage, given time, while Stone's active ability is more niche - but, it does give you 120 ft dark vision, which is very enticing if your race lacks it. Frost Rune is definitely the weakest of the bunch (but not terrible-terrible, so if you like it, just go for it). Hill Rune is much better than Storm Rune, when/if you get to 7th.

I personally do not like Sentinel. Every single one of its abilities takes your reaction, so using the whole feat is bothersome and competes with several class abilities (like Cloud and Stone Rune). Its signature ability, reducing an opponent's movement to zero, specifically requires an opportunity attack, so triggering it with things like Brace and Riposte don't work (granted, not relevant to you).

I would recommend the following feats, in roughly this order: PAM, Skill Expert, ASI (Str), Lucky, Resil (Wis)
If you're variant human, I'd go PAM (bonus), Skill Expert, Piercer, ASI: str, Lucky, Resil (Wis)

Your weapon is going to be a spear. Yes, you'll lose damage, but you don't have much to do with your bonus action after Giant's Might, and an extra attack is really good (esp. with the damage Giant's Might grants, since you'll have an extra chance to trigger it). It's also versatile so you can switch to one-handed when you're grappling someone. With this build, take Cloud and Stone Rune as they don't take your bonus action to use.

Wildfire.

Its just the barb who will be melee with me

Sentinel I agree with, it's crowding already crowded space.

Rune wise I agree.

I'm planning on cloud, fire, hill, storm, stone. We should be hitting level 15 (doing Ghostfire's Pirates of the Aetherial Expanse)

PAM, im a little eh on. Mostly because I'm already using it with another character (and in fairness its AWESOME. I just get enough of it.)

[Mastikator]

Another option to consider is PAM and duelist, you pick up a spear and a shield, the extra damage from duelist adds up quickly with the bonus action attack. The neat thing about duelist is that it applies to thrown weapons like spears.
If you can convince the artificer to gift you the returning weapon infusion you'd have both melee and short range options. Your attacks would be 1d6 + str + 2 + 1 (from infusion). It may not seem as huge as GWM +10 but you'd be hitting way more often, missing deals no damage after all. And the higher AC from the shield will be noticed too.
You also get reaction attacks if someone charges you.

[Skrum]

Wildfire.

Its just the barb who will be melee with me

Sentinel I agree with, it's crowding already crowded space.

Rune wise I agree.

I'm planning on cloud, fire, hill, storm, stone. We should be hitting level 15 (doing Ghostfire's Pirates of the Aetherial Expanse)

PAM, im a little eh on. Mostly because I'm already using it with another character (and in fairness its AWESOME. I just get enough of it.)

Ah makes sense. I think I'd go Crusher then? Crusher > Piercer, and forced movement is pretty on-brand for a gigantic warrior.

So, use a war hammer, take
Crusher, Skill Expert, ASI: str and wis, Lucky, Resil: wis

if human, go
Crusher (bonus), Skill Expert, ASI: str, Lucky, Resil: wis

Take Defensive fighting style since you'll be switching your grip on your weapon

[Greywander]

Grappling is definitely something that gets better if you have a party that can properly take advantage of it. It even without that it can still be an effective way to shut down an enemy. It's a waste against a weak enemy like a goblin, but if you grab the toughest looking enemy on the battlefield then you can effectively remove them from the fight. It also forces that enemy to deal with you first, and you're going to be pretty tanky yourself.

Like we've said, you won't use it all the time, but it should come up a few times where you can grab the boss and stomp on his face while your party cleans up the boss's mooks. And again, you already have almost everything you need to be a top tier grappler already, all you're missing is Skill Expert, which will also help you in other things.

As for feats and fighting styles, it gets tricky if you want to mix in occasional grappling. GWM requires a heavy weapon, which locks you into something two-handed (versatile won't cut it). Shields require an action to doff, meaning a sword'n'board build will have you dropping your weapon instead when you want to grapple. Without a natural weapon or the Unarmed Fighting style, that's not a great option. PAM is probably the most compatible feat option, since all the one-handed options are versatile weapons, and you have two-handed options for when you don't expect to grapple. As for fighting styles, that's not as clear. Dueling requires using the weapon in one hand, GWF requires using the weapon in two hands, so either way you'll only get the benefits some of the time. Blind Fighting is fun if you can properly take advantage of it (e.g. someone in the party can cast Fog Cloud).

You could also ignore grappling when picking a feat and fighting style. If it's something you only do on occasion, then the benefits that feat and fighting style give when not grappling will outweigh the loss when you are grappling.

[stormsouldevil]

Grappling is definitely something that gets better if you have a party that can properly take advantage of it. It even without that it can still be an effective way to shut down an enemy. It's a waste against a weak enemy like a goblin, but if you grab the toughest looking enemy on the battlefield then you can effectively remove them from the fight. It also forces that enemy to deal with you first, and you're going to be pretty tanky yourself.

Like we've said, you won't use it all the time, but it should come up a few times where you can grab the boss and stomp on his face while your party cleans up the boss's mooks. And again, you already have almost everything you need to be a top tier grappler already, all you're missing is Skill Expert, which will also help you in other things.

As for feats and fighting styles, it gets tricky if you want to mix in occasional grappling. GWM requires a heavy weapon, which locks you into something two-handed (versatile won't cut it). Shields require an action to doff, meaning a sword'n'board build will have you dropping your weapon instead when you want to grapple. Without a natural weapon or the Unarmed Fighting style, that's not a great option. PAM is probably the most compatible feat option, since all the one-handed options are versatile weapons, and you have two-handed options for when you don't expect to grapple. As for fighting styles, that's not as clear. Dueling requires using the weapon in one hand, GWF requires using the weapon in two hands, so either way you'll only get the benefits some of the time. Blind Fighting is fun if you can properly take advantage of it (e.g. someone in the party can cast Fog Cloud).

You could also ignore grappling when picking a feat and fighting style. If it's something you only do on occasion, then the benefits that feat and fighting style give when not grappling will outweigh the loss when you are grappling.

Question-

Why is dueling a waste of time?

Compared to a versatile in 2 hands Its got a better damage floor, the same damage ceiling, and better average damage. Crits... better damage floor, same average, worse max. I'd still take dueling any day of the week.

I like versatile weapons... but with dueling in the mix I dont see why its being recomended.

[Greywander]

Question-

Why is dueling a waste of time?
??? I didn't say that it was?

Did you perhaps reply to the wrong person?


Compared to a versatile in 2 hands Its got a better damage floor, the same damage ceiling, and better average damage. Crits... better damage floor, same average, worse max. I'd still take dueling any day of the week.

I like versatile weapons... but with dueling in the mix I dont see why its being recomended.
I think the issue here is that you're comparing one-handing a weapon with Dueling to two-handing that same weapon without a fighting style. A more proper comparison would be between Dueling one-handed vs. GWF two-handed, as well as which one you expect to be applicable more often.

The advantage of Dueling is that it will apply even while grappling. GWF will not, as it requires the weapon to be held in two hands.

The advantage of GWF is that it can be applied to a versatile weapon. If you expect to grapple during a fight, but you aren't grappling right now, you can grip your versatile weapon in two hands and still get the GWF bonus. For any fight where you don't expect to grapple, you can just pull out a dedicated two-handed weapon like a maul or greatsword to maximize the benefit of GWF.

One of the weaknesses with Dueling here is that it leaves you wanting to do something with your other hand. If you grapple often, that's not an issue, but if grappling is a rare occurrence, you don't just want that hand empty the rest of the time. Because of Dueling, you can't just use a second weapon, or use a two-handed weapon (you could, but you'd lose the Dueling bonus). The best option would be to use a shield, but a shield takes an entire action to don or doff, meaning you really want to know if you'll need it before you roll initiative. By contrast, it's much more trivial to decide between drawing a versatile weapon vs. drawing a two-handed weapon.

You could also go for something more gear-agnostic like Blind Fighting or Defense. That way, you could use whatever weapon is best for the occasion without worrying about losing out on a bonus.

[stormsouldevil]

??? I didn't say that it was?

Did you perhaps reply to the wrong person?


I think the issue here is that you're comparing one-handing a weapon with Dueling to two-handing that same weapon without a fighting style. A more proper comparison would be between Dueling one-handed vs. GWF two-handed, as well as which one you expect to be applicable more often.

The advantage of Dueling is that it will apply even while grappling. GWF will not, as it requires the weapon to be held in two hands.

The advantage of GWF is that it can be applied to a versatile weapon. If you expect to grapple during a fight, but you aren't grappling right now, you can grip your versatile weapon in two hands and still get the GWF bonus. For any fight where you don't expect to grapple, you can just pull out a dedicated two-handed weapon like a maul or greatsword to maximize the benefit of GWF.

One of the weaknesses with Dueling here is that it leaves you wanting to do something with your other hand. If you grapple often, that's not an issue, but if grappling is a rare occurrence, you don't just want that hand empty the rest of the time. Because of Dueling, you can't just use a second weapon, or use a two-handed weapon (you could, but you'd lose the Dueling bonus). The best option would be to use a shield, but a shield takes an entire action to don or doff, meaning you really want to know if you'll need it before you roll initiative. By contrast, it's much more trivial to decide between drawing a versatile weapon vs. drawing a two-handed weapon.

You could also go for something more gear-agnostic like Blind Fighting or Defense. That way, you could use whatever weapon is best for the occasion without worrying about losing out on a bonus.


Sorry I'm also a bit distracted. Got some crummy news.

I think whats throwing me off about that is if im carrying a great weapon, im going to want gwm as well as gwf.

So im leaving most of a feat offline when Id want it the most.

Which I think is just the route I want to go.

Gwf, GWM, crusher.

[Greywander]

Sorry I'm also a bit distracted. Got some crummy news.
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope things get better.


I think whats throwing me off about that is if im carrying a great weapon, im going to want gwm as well as gwf.

So im leaving most of a feat offline when Id want it the most.

Which I think is just the route I want to go.

Gwf, GWM, crusher.
That's fine. I'd just recommend also keeping a versatile weapon handy on those occasions where grappling would pay off. Damage isn't everything, and shutting down a major enemy can take a lot of pressure off of the rest of your party. That said, damage is still pretty effective, so it makes sense to go this route.

[stoutstien]

The best part of the rune knight is it has enough built in flexibility you don't necessarily need to plan out a special build.

Based on what your party looks like I would say blind fighting is going to be your best fighting style choice if they like to block vision whatsoever. Avoid great weapon fighting. It's not good even with the best option (great sword).

Feat wise I'd avoid additional action economy options until you have a feel for the runes. Nothing wrong with maxing attack stat and pushing con up. You'll have spare ASIs later on

[Mastikator]

Sorry I'm also a bit distracted. Got some crummy news.

I think whats throwing me off about that is if im carrying a great weapon, im going to want gwm as well as gwf.

So im leaving most of a feat offline when Id want it the most.

Which I think is just the route I want to go.

Gwf, GWM, crusher.

GWF doesn't do much and to be honest I think just about any other fighting style will give you more. Defense or blindfighting or interception would be better IMO.

[stormsouldevil]

I'm sorry to hear that. I hope things get better.


That's fine. I'd just recommend also keeping a versatile weapon handy on those occasions where grappling would pay off. Damage isn't everything, and shutting down a major enemy can take a lot of pressure off of the rest of your party. That said, damage is still pretty effective, so it makes sense to go this route.

Thats where I think I've landed. It costs me nothing, and is a really good tactical option.

And thank you.


To others (so I dont have to double post.)

Blind fighting ill strongly consider. Because its cool, and fun.

Gwm vs defense i find is interesting.

Mechanichally you are totes right.

Fun wise though I find it a little opposite. Turning snake eyes into a 12 is awesome, or even just a 7. I know by the math it's an average of like 1 extra damage, but it delivers those big hits that can be a lot of fun. ^_^

I'm not saying you are at all wrong, just that I know its a sub op choice.

And yeah one thing I saw said about RKs is "... did we get a fighter build that actually makes sense to dump ASIs into ASIs?" Ths base class gives plenty of goodies that feats feel a little redundant.

[RazorChain]

Another option is Shield master. Now you can shove as a bonus actions. According to sage advice you can do so first before you take your attacks as long as you take an attack action.

[stoutstien]

Another option is Shield master. Now you can shove as a bonus actions. According to sage advice you can do so first before you take your attacks as long as you take an attack action.

Have they flipped back again on that?

[stormsouldevil]

Have they flipped back again on that?

Sword and board really could use that boost, so I hope so. Its still not as good as GWM or Sharposhooter, but it is fun.

[RogueJK]

Another option is Shield master. Now you can shove as a bonus actions. According to sage advice you can do so first before you take your attacks as long as you take an attack action.

Nope. Here's the Sage Advice ruling verbatim, from https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf

The Shield Master feat lets you shove someone as a bonus action if you take the Attack action. Can you take that bonus action before the Attack action?

No. The bonus action provided by the Shield Master feat has a precondition: that you take the Attack action on your turn. Intending to take that action isn’t sufficient; you must actually take it before you can take the bonus action. During your turn, you do get to decide when to take the bonus action after you’ve taken the Attack action. This sort of if-then setup appears in many of the game’s rules. The “if” must be satisfied before the “then” comes into play.


So you must actually perform the Attack Action first, before you can use your Bonus Action to Shove with Shield Master.


Have they flipped back again on that?

No...

[J-H]

However, once you get Extra Attack, you can intersperse your Attack action with other actions and action types, you should be able to Attack once, then Shield Master Shove, then use your remaining attacks.

[stormsouldevil]

However, once you get Extra Attack, you can intersperse your Attack action with other actions and action types, you should be able to Attack once, then Shield Master Shove, then use your remaining attacks.

I thought the ruling was that you had to complete the attack action before you could take a bonus action?

As a DM I ignore that. But im not going to be DM here.

[Greywander]

Shield Master has three possible interpretations, all of which have been officially supported at some point. Not through updates or errata, but by the devs claiming this was always the correct interpretation all along. This does not inspire confidence in the devs that they know what their own rules, which they wrote, even say.

So basically this is firmly in "ask your DM" territory. My position is that RAW allows the shield bash before attacking, and that they should change what is actually written if that isn't the intent (instead of just claiming that we're reading it wrong).

[ImproperJustice]

Most reasonable GMs allow Shield master shove as a bonus action because unless you are deity of law, there is little to no benefit to follow such rigid adherence to the rules.

I digress, Rune Knights are good at shield shoving too, while enjoying the benefits of a higher AC and laying people out so your other melee buddy, the Barb can clean house.

Then with your added durability you can hold the line when you need to.

I think it would be fun to play around with Shield master snd thrown weapon fighting as well.
You could hand axe people up close and afar, at the cost of a point of damage, while enjoying a little bit more “reach” as it were.