Vecna play-test 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Rafaelfras]

Link to the 1st thread: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?647054-Vecna-Playtest-Notes&highlight=vecna


So, my party finally got reunited and as promised long, long time ago, I was able to play-test the archlich myself.


The party: I got 5 of my players, all of then at level 15, since we agreed a standard party would range between 3-5, I though the higher end would be fair to then as they are lower level. Those are the characters my players use currently without any modification.


15th level half-elf hexblade/favored soul warlock w/ flametongue weapon…Notable spells: weapon cantrips, counter spell, quick and subtle spell metamagics and eldritch smite, .
15th level elf elemental monk ...... notable disciplines: fists of the fire snake and water wip.
15th level aasimar life Cleric
15th level elf assassin rogue with a powerful +2 crossbow that does +2d6 radiant damage
15th level human evoker wizard w/ a robe of stars.



The opposition: Vecna in his lair following the description given in the dossier, 80 feet long and 30 feet wide. The ceiling is 60 feet high, with stone pillars holding the ceiling.

The results:
It was, as I predicted, very disappointing. Vecna was defeated by mid round 3 just before his turn. My players where also disappointed and chocked when I told them they just defeated Vecna, a CR 26 monster.
The fight went as it follows:
A dream sequence begun, they were at the Sanctum so they did not knew who that lich was when he appeared and said "Prepare to die" ( super railroaded I know, but I wanted to take then by surprise)

Iniciative order was Monk, Warlock, Vecna, Assassin, Cleric and wizard.

Round 1
Monk uses water whip, Vecna uses legendary resistance, she closes the gap to him.
Warlock try to cast a quick spell get counter spelled for 12 points of damage, uses his magi bow to hit Vecna with 2 attacks.
Vecna uses vile teleport on the warlock for 9 damage, getting all his HP back, he uses flight of the damned for 42 damage, the Monk and the Cleric made their saving throws.
Assassin try to hide and fail, misses her attack.
Cleric casts sun beam, get counter spelled by Vecna taking 9 points of damage.
Wizard hide behind a pillar and cast Bigyb´s Hand, the hand grapple Vecna doing 27 points of damage. He makes his saving throw ending the frightened condition.

Round 2
Monk attack with fangs of the fire snake, Vecna uses fell rebuke leaving the hand and LOSing the Wizard, Cleric and Assassin, the Monk follows through hitting Vecna with all attacks doing 54 points of damage.
Warlock moves to hit him with quick booming blade for 36 damage, Vecna uses fell rebuke doing 9 points of damage, he them casts subtle chill touch, hitting Vecna for 19 points of damage.
Vecna uses Rotten fate on the monk, she make her saving throw getting 52 points of damage, he then vile teleport to her doing another 5 points of damage but getting nothing back due to chill touch, he hits her 2 times with the dagger for another 31 points of damage, the monk has 10 hit points left.
Assassin misses again and fails to hide again
Cleric uses channel divinity to try to heal the monk but nothing happens
Wizard uses his bonus action for the hand to grapple Vecna again for 20 points of damage, he casts magic missile from the robe doing 63 points of damage.

Round 3
Monk takes 5 points of damage due to entropic magic and fails her saving throw she hits Vecna again with fangs of fire snake doing 18 points of damage, Vecna uses fell rebuke and the monk is down.
Warlock uses eldritch smite doing 73 points of damage.
Vecna is destroyed

Congratulations, you guys just defeated Vecna.

So thats it. After testing myself I found out that everything I said was a problem got confirmed and my players not only managed to kill Vecna but they did it at level 15 while 2 party members did absolutely nothing. Evokers, hexblades and elemental monks can indeed do a lot of damage and Vecna has very little that he can do to avoid those. The warlock was prepared to use counter spell on anything Vecna might cast (trying to no avail use it against the abilities displayed getting "sorry you cant counter spell that") and the cleric and the assassin didnt had the chance to do anything with the assassin not even serving as cannon fodder.


In the other thread I already pointed out everything I though was wrong with this block, so I will not repeat everything here. All in all I´ve confirmed my assumptions and not even the party being 5 levels below 20 made the encounter challenging.

So there it is, my test is done, the new direction sucks and Vecna is the biggest let down of an Archlich that I could think off

[Amnestic]

In the other thread I already pointed out everything I though was wrong with this block, so I will not repeat everything here. All in all I´ve confirmed my assumptions and not even the party being 5 levels below 20 made the encounter challenging.

In the last thread you said that his statblock failed because it didn't let him counter cheese tactics (like druid grove)...but this party didn't use any cheese tactics - they engaged him pretty much straightforwardly: hitting him a lot and, apparently, dealing exact damage to his 272 hit points.

You also noted a weakness to ranged attacks in the other thread, but the assassin with the ranged weapon didn't actually hit at all - the damage came almost entirely from the monk in melee, bigby's hand, magic missile, and the warlock stabbing him - none of which are ranged attacks. The warlock hit twice with a bow, but Vecna healed all of that up.

The only notable tactic I can see was using chill touch to turn off his healing but there aren't any spells on the wizard list I can think of that would stop that from working. Shield, I guess, depending on what the attack roll was. Hitting a 23 is still going to be not far off 50/50 for a 15th level character. Would've stopped the magic missile damage though.

Neither side seem to have been given any prep for the fight specifically with them both poofing into existence in his lair. Vecna doesn't seem to have used his animate dead at all even for some mooks to get in the way, so I must confess I'm unsure how giving them a full set of spells would've solved anything - even the few that he does have you don't seem to have used.

[Eldariel]

Vecna would've lived a bit longer if he opted to Dread Counterspell the R2 Quickened Booming Blade from the Warlock, certainly. But yeah, the statblock has issues and here it seems like he was simply out-actioned. I think Dimension Dooring away could've given him a bit more play; he was kinda happily trading with the party. That said, none of that changes the fact that a number of Tier 3 PCs are likely to be able to kill him.

[Rafaelfras]

In the last thread you said that his statblock failed because it didn't let him counter cheese tactics (like druid grove)...but this party didn't use any cheese tactics - they engaged him pretty much straightforwardly: hitting him a lot and, apparently, dealing exact damage to his 272 hit points.

You also noted a weakness to ranged attacks in the other thread, but the assassin with the ranged weapon didn't actually hit at all - the damage came almost entirely from the monk in melee, bigby's hand, magic missile, and the warlock stabbing him - none of which are ranged attacks. The warlock hit twice with a bow, but Vecna healed all of that up.

The only notable tactic I can see was using chill touch to turn off his healing but there aren't any spells on the wizard list I can think of that would stop that from working. Shield, I guess, depending on what the attack roll was. Hitting a 23 is still going to be not far off 50/50 for a 15th level character. Would've stopped the magic missile damage though.

Neither side seem to have been given any prep for the fight specifically with them both poofing into existence in his lair. Vecna doesn't seem to have used his animate dead at all even for some mooks to get in the way, so I must confess I'm unsure how giving them a full set of spells would've solved anything - even the few that he does have you don't seem to have used.
I am happy that they didn't employed any vision tactics, also we got 300 damage total so no, he was defeated and very well at that.
I have also said he was weak because he had low AC, HP and lacked access do defensive spells such as shield, mirror images, blink, blur etc ... and that not only ranged attackers but also very mobile melee attackers (most melee players at my table are close to our monk) would be able to do a lot against him.

And yeah, no prep was the way I choose to test this. The players didn't even knew what it was until we were done.
Had him used and entire army of undead the cleric would have destroyed then with turn undead (and then at least the cleric would have done something)
Also the fight lasted 2,5 rounds, Vecna had 2 turns, I didn't had TIME to use anything because he went from 136 damage to dead before he could act again.


Vecna would've lived a bit longer if he opted to Dread Counterspell the R2 Quickened Booming Blade from the Warlock, certainly. But yeah, the statblock has issues and here it seems like he was simply out-actioned. I think Dimension Dooring away could've given him a bit more play; he was kinda happily trading with the party. That said, none of that changes the fact that a number of Tier 3 PCs are likely to be able to kill him.
Yes, I thought at first trying the standart, 4 lvl 20 players, but them I thought that if my players could pull that off with their current characters who are at 15 level it would really prove my point

[stoutstien]

You don't need any play testing to realize that single target encounters are always going to favor the party and are going to punch well below their weight class. No amount of stat block changes are going to address this unless you to the 2 in 1 approach shoving multiple NPCs into a single creature.

Might explain why this star block has a built in way to make a modular horde and GTFO tools instead of face tanking the party that will surely kill him because they most likely can dump enough damage to kill elder elemental gods I a few seconds.

[Envyus]

He took several of them down and did lots of damage, I would say he preformed well.

[Rafaelfras]

You don't need any play testing to realize that single target encounters are always going to favor the party and are going to punch well below their weight class. No amount of stat block changes are going to address this unless you to the 2 in 1 approach shoving multiple NPCs into a single creature.

Might explain why this star block has a built in way to make a modular horde and GTFO tools instead of face tanking the party that will surely kill him because they most likely can dump enough damage to kill elder elemental gods I a few seconds.

Legendary Actions, which Vecna lacks, was the fix to this, this same party (8 of then at the time) had to run away from a boss fight that had legendary actions akin to Halaster and Acererak. And yes there are some amount of stats block changes that you can make to avoid that an encounter that should be a challenge to a level 20 party getting killed in 2,5 rounds by effectively 3 level 15 characters.
If I decided to, for example, cast dimensional door the Warklock would have used counter spell and the monk wouldn't be brought down. If he had a horde, the cleric would use turn undead and destroy then all, instead of just losing both actions he had in this fight


He took several of them down and did lots of damage, I would say he preformed well.
He took just the monk down the rest of the party had plenty of hp

[Psyren]

I think there's some info missing, or else you might not have used Vecna's three reactions per round to anywhere near their potential here.


Warlock try to cast a quick spell get counter spelled, uses his magi bow to hit Vecna with 2 attacks.

Two missed opportunities to Fell Rebuke here, which could have also saved the Vile Teleport later.



Wizard hide behind a pillar and cast Bigyb´s Hand, the hand grapple Vecna doing 27 points of damage.

Wouldn't Hiding and casting Hand both use an action? How did the Wizard do both? And if he didn't actually Hide, why wouldn't Vecna counterspell the Hand?


the Monk follows through hitting Vecna with all attacks doing 54 points of damage.

Why didn't Vecna Fell Rebuke on the first hit instead of eating the entire sequence?



Wizard uses his bonus action for the hand to grapple Vecna again for 20 points of damage, he casts magic missile from the robe doing 63 points of damage.

Grapple is an attack, Fell Rebuke was usable here again - though countering the hand as noted earlier would have saved the need.

The hand alone was 47 HP that was easily avoidable, and the melee sequence from the monk as well.
I do agree that Legendary actions would have been nice though.

[Rafaelfras]

I think there's some info missing, or else you might not have used Vecna's three reactions per round to anywhere near their potential here.

Will do my best to clarify



Two missed opportunities to Fell Rebuke here, which could have also saved the Vile Teleport later.

Per his stat block:



Vecna can take up to three reactions per round but only one per turn.

He can't use fell rebuke because he used dread counter spell



Wouldn't Hiding and casting Hand both use an action? How did the Wizard do both? And if he didn't actually Hide, why wouldn't Vecna counterspell the Hand?

Hiding as line of sight to not get counter spell, not the hiding action , while being able to see a point close enough to cast the hand, he was near a stone pillar so move, cast, move again, in and out Vecna line of sight



Why didn't Vecna Fell Rebuke on the first hit instead of eating the entire sequence?


He did, the monk speed is well above 30 feet plus fangs of fire snake give her reach, so she hit, he used fell rebuke she moved getting in reach again, hitting him 2 more times



Grapple is an attack, Fell Rebuke was usable here again - though countering the hand as noted earlier would have saved the need.


The first time the hand grappled him he had counter spell the cleric, with 2 reactions left I preferred try to keep them for the monk and the warlock, the second time the hand grappled, the wizard still had his action so I kept the reaction for counter spell, but he used the robe instead of actually casting



The hand alone was 47 HP that was easily avoidable, and the melee sequence from the monk as well.
I do agree that Legendary actions would have been nice though.

Vecna got 2 turns on the fight, on the first turn he used flight of the damned hitting everyone, but he went before the wizard so no hand. On turn 2 he went for the monk, a particular fact about our monk is that she has low HP, if she didn't had made her saving throw rotten fate would have KOed her. The hand while inconvenient wasn't a deal breaker because he got out of it both times when the monk hit him on turn 2 and 3.

[DarknessEternal]

Party did all damage through spells. Vecna did not cast Globe of Invulnerability.

[Psyren]

Hiding as line of sight to not get counter spell, not the hiding action , while being able to see a point close enough to cast the hand, he was near a stone pillar so move, cast, move again, in and out Vecna line of sight

How wide was that pillar? It would need to provide total cover to block line of sight entirely. Note that "thick tree trunks" only provide 3/4 cover (PHB 196).



He did, the monk speed is well above 30 feet plus fangs of fire snake give her reach, so she hit, he used fell rebuke she moved getting in reach again, hitting him 2 more times

Above 30ft, sure, but 90ft without dashing? Or was he teleporting small distances each time? Or did the monk use Step of the Wind, which would mean only two attacks?


The first time the hand grappled him he had counter spell the cleric, with 2 reactions left I preferred try to keep them for the monk and the warlock, the second time the hand grappled, the wizard still had his action so I kept the reaction for counter spell, but he used the robe instead of actually casting

I think getting grappled would be a pretty big threat for a caster personally.



Vecna got 2 turns on the fight, on the first turn he used flight of the damned hitting everyone, but he went before the wizard so no hand. On turn 2 he went for the monk, a particular fact about our monk is that she has low HP, if she didn't had made her saving throw rotten fate would have KOed her. The hand while inconvenient wasn't a deal breaker because he got out of it both times when the monk hit him on turn 2 and 3.

I'm not saying the hand was the deciding factor here but it was still preventable damage. Also, not sure Rotten Fate was the best use of the round two action here when faced with three spellcasters.


Party did all damage through spells. Vecna did not cast Globe of Invulnerability.

This would have been a much better round two action, especially since apparently there was a pillar in the room big enough to line of sight the casters behind.

[Dork_Forge]

Okay... quite a few issues with this:

- Vecna just... decided to not use Afterthought on the first turn for some reason?

- The Wizard is problematic, I'm assuming by 'Hide' behind a pillar you meant take cover, because they don't have the action economy to actually attempt to hide.

- Following on from the above, Vecna should not have taken damage from the hand the second time. You seem to have ruled, or the player mistook it, for dealing damage when grappling. It doesn't. Whilst the target is grappled you can then use your bonus to do damage, there isn't action economy on turn 2 to establish the grapple and do those 20 points of damage. I'm also assuming that they upcast the hand, since the damage numbers don't add up otherwise.

- I assume this is a reporting error, but the Warlock doesn't seem to have taken damage from the Dread Counterspell

-You seem to have ruled the DS works like regular Counterspell, despite the verbiage being different. A DM's call, but the only reason that Chill Touch landed

- Following on from the above, unless there's a factor not disclosed, it's literally impossible for the Warlock's Chill Touch to do 19 damage to Vecna because of his resistance to necrotic damage. Even a max roll of 24 would get halved down to 12, so I assume this was just an error.

- The Quickened Booming Blade also seems weird, is this just a really above average roll (25.5 assuming it's a d8 weapon), or does the Warlock have the extra damage invocation? Given the amount of SP spent I'm inclined to say just a really fortunate damage roll.

- You said the Warlock used Eldritch Smite for that big old chunk of damage, was it actually a single hit with ES, or was that the full two attack routine?

- Why on earth was Vecna focused on the Monk, who seemed to just be a bit of a nuisance, rather than deal with the casters? Espcecially since one of said casters shut down his very important self heal.

- Why was Vecna within range for the Warlock to close and Eldritch Smite? You didn't note any mobility buffs on the Warlock, and presumably Vecna wasn't already within 5ft of them before using Fell Rebuke on the Monk.

- Strategically, Flight of the Damned did not seem like a good choice for him at all, the casters aren't going to really care about Frightened for the most part and it isn't going to devastating damage, or enough to put the Cleric in healbot mode.

IMO: Vecna should have identified the Wizard or the Warlock as the primary threat and immediately killed them. Between Rotten Fate, Afterthought x2, and Vile Teleport it is easily achievable. At the very least he could have given Dominate Monster a punt against the Rogue or someone to divide and conquer.

Significant tactical errors aside, there seems to be a nontrivial amount of damage that Vecna just should not have taken, which doesn't fill me with confidence that Vecna should have actually died, unless you can clarify those away?

[Rafaelfras]

Okay... quite a few issues with this:

Significant tactical errors aside, there seems to be a nontrivial amount of damage that Vecna just should not have taken, which doesn't fill me with confidence that Vecna should have actually died, unless you can clarify those away?

I will try my best to clarify everything



Okay... quite a few issues with this:

- Vecna just... decided to not use Afterthought on the first turn for some reason?

No, both attacks missed due to very poor rolls



- The Wizard is problematic, I'm assuming by 'Hide' behind a pillar you meant take cover, because they don't have the action economy to actually attempt to hide.
This is correct, and it is just one wizard.



- Following on from the above, Vecna should not have taken damage from the hand the second time. You seem to have ruled, or the player mistook it, for dealing damage when grappling. It doesn't. Whilst the target is grappled you can then use your bonus to do damage, there isn't action economy on turn 2 to establish the grapple and do those 20 points of damage. I'm also assuming that they upcast the hand, since the damage numbers don't add up otherwise.

Thats right, it was a mistake, from the player (and therefore mine as well) but to do the player justice his intention was do damage, he just used the grappling hand because the difference wasn't big so if we haven't glossed over that fact he would went with clenched fist instead, the monk also rolled very well so the advantage got from the hand wasn't important for the attack, so I think it´s fair to count this damage. Also yes it was upcast.



- I assume this is a reporting error, but the Warlock doesn't seem to have taken damage from the Dread Counterspell
Yes, I will fix in the OP



-You seem to have ruled the DS works like regular Counterspell, despite the verbiage being different. A DM's call, but the only reason that Chill Touch landed
Yes, that was my call, dread counter spell says


a creature he can see that is casting a spell.

to know that the creature is casting a spell there must be sighs of casting i.e V,S and M components, subtle spell has none so there isn't a spell being cast for him to counter, I took this position on the other thread when this topic was discussed and I stand by it. I already dont like that you cant counter or dispel these new abilities, juts ignoring subtle spell is too much for me.



- Following on from the above, unless there's a factor not disclosed, it's literally impossible for the Warlock's Chill Touch to do 19 damage to Vecna because of his resistance to necrotic damage. Even a max roll of 24 would get halved down to 12, so I assume this was just an error.
Yes this is right, it is a error, the damage should be 9



- The Quickened Booming Blade also seems weird, is this just a really above average roll (25.5 assuming it's a d8 weapon), or does the Warlock have the extra damage invocation? Given the amount of SP spent I'm inclined to say just a really fortunate damage roll.
He does have the extra damage invocation and metamagic talent (so he has more SP than a common sorcerer of that level), he also got a tome of charisma, having +6 bonus



- You said the Warlock used Eldritch Smite for that big old chunk of damage, was it actually a single hit with ES, or was that the full two attack routine?
A single hit with a +1 flame tongue with both hands. It was one of the best rolls we saw... ever. 1d10+1 + 6d8 (eldritch smite goes 1d8 + 1d8/spell level, so he used a 5th level slot) + 2d6 + 12 from thirsting blade and hex warrior. He got 73 out of 83.



- Why on earth was Vecna focused on the Monk, who seemed to just be a bit of a nuisance, rather than deal with the casters? Espcecially since one of said casters shut down his very important self heal.
Ok for this you got to know some particularities of my group. 1st, I dont agree the monk was a nuisance, she was putting up reliable damage and Vecna couldn't get away from her (remember at level 15 monk speed is 55 feet and her reach was 10 feet due o fangs of the fire snake), that aside, she has the lowest HP from the group, due to poor rolling, if she had failed her saving throw (thus taking 104 damage) she would be done for, the wizard got 6´s and 5´s through his career and has more HP than her, he also had made 27 points of damage at that time and Vecna can reliably shut him down with his counter spell. The warlock would be even worse, he has high HP, and way higher AC, wouldn't got down even taking a full rotten fate and last but not least he has Tomb of Levistus, so Vecna would simply waste his action and thats something I didnt wanted. I know that its easier to see better paths after the fight is done, but both the wizard and the warlock would not have died and even if the wizard was brought down by the damage, the cleric would have him up with his channel divinity that cannot be counter spelled. So the monk seem to me the best target for that action at that time.



- Why was Vecna within range for the Warlock to close and Eldritch Smite? You didn't note any mobility buffs on the Warlock, and presumably Vecna wasn't already within 5ft of them before using Fell Rebuke on the Monk.
The direction that he went was within 30 feet of the warlock, he was going for the wizard next round after that magic missile.



- Strategically, Flight of the Damned did not seem like a good choice for him at all, the casters aren't going to really care about Frightened for the most part and it isn't going to devastating damage, or enough to put the Cleric in healbot mode.
Yeah I didn't like that either, I used because in the video or in the dossier it is said he open up the encounter with it, plus is his recharge ability and this being a play test, I went as suggested



IMO: Vecna should have identified the Wizard or the Warlock as the primary threat and immediately killed them. Between Rotten Fate, Afterthought x2, and Vile Teleport it is easily achievable. At the very least he could have given Dominate Monster a punt against the Rogue or someone to divide and conquer.
Dominate monster on the rogue was on the to do list, but that would get a counter spell by the warlock or the wizard. So he would probably just lose his action.

I hope that I could clarify your questions and give you more input behind the rationale of some of my decisions as well as the damage numbers.




How wide was that pillar? It would need to provide total cover to block line of sight entirely. Note that "thick tree trunks" only provide 3/4 cover (PHB 196).
10 feet diameter




Above 30ft, sure, but 90ft without dashing? Or was he teleporting small distances each time? Or did the monk use Step of the Wind, which would mean only two attacks?
Why 90 ft? Fell rebuke can only take you 30 feet.




I think getting grappled would be a pretty big threat for a caster personally.
Sure, it is super valid, I thought that fell rebuke was enough to escape that




I'm not saying the hand was the deciding factor here but it was still preventable damage. Also, not sure Rotten Fate was the best use of the round two action here when faced with three spellcasters.

This would have been a much better round two action, especially since apparently there was a pillar in the room big enough to line of sight the casters behind.

The warlock and the wizard had counter spell, He would not be able to pull it off

[Psyren]

10 feet diameter



The warlock and the wizard had counter spell, He would not be able to pull it off

I think a questionable choice/ ruling here is that if the pillar is truly capable of bestowing total cover, that should go both ways - If they can LOS Vecna to get off things like Hand and Chill safely, he can use it to get off a safe Globe or DD. In addition, his counterspell outranges theirs as it works on anything he can see, so there's no real reason for him to stand in range of theirs, unless the room is pretty small, which would of course favor a group over a lone caster.

[Rafaelfras]

I think a questionable choice/ ruling here is that if the pillar is truly capable of bestowing total cover, that should go both ways - If they can LOS Vecna to get off things like Hand and Chill safely, he can use it to get off a safe Globe or DD. In addition, his counterspell outranges theirs as it works on anything he can see, so there's no real reason for him to stand in range of theirs, unless the room is pretty small, which would of course favor a group over a lone caster.

Yes, all this is true, but his set of abilities as I said in the other thread tend to put him in harm's way. I did planned to use the LOS to cast globe of invulnerability on round 3 after the monk demise (as she also had mage slayer) to avoid loosing the heal again, but he died.

The room dimensions are in the OP, (80x30) it is as described in the adventure and in my opinion is a small room

[J-H]

As a DM, it's HARD to play high-level casters perfectly optimally, especially when high level PCs have a lot of tricks they can pull out.
I would be shocked if someone managed to run Vecna perfectly with no mistakes or suboptimal choices.

High end monsters have to be sturdy enough to survive some DM mistakes.

[Dork_Forge]

I will try my best to clarify everything

Thank you, I really appreciate this kind of dialogue.


No, both attacks missed due to very poor rolls

That makes more sense, thanks.


This is correct, and it is just one wizard.

I'm confused why you said it's just one Wizard, but thanks for confirming it was cover/LoS based tactics


Thats right, it was a mistake, from the player (and therefore mine as well) but to do the player justice his intention was do damage, he just used the grappling hand because the difference wasn't big so if we haven't glossed over that fact he would went with clenched fist instead, the monk also rolled very well so the advantage got from the hand wasn't important for the attack, so I think it´s fair to count this damage. Also yes it was upcast.

Err, the hand just grapples so there shouldn't have been advantage at all?

But IMO the difference does matter, using Clenched Fist means that Vecna gets to use Fell Rebuke, forcing a Con save, chipping the Wizard, and giving him more favourable positioning (this mostly just factors into can the Monk make all of their attacks, their speed and reach is extreme, but throwing another 30 ft. in there could be meaningful).


Yes, I will fix in the OP

Thanks!


Yes, that was my call, dread counter spell says



to know that the creature is casting a spell there must be sighs of casting i.e V,S and M components, subtle spell has none so there isn't a spell being cast for him to counter, I took this position on the other thread when this topic was discussed and I stand by it. I already dont like that you cant counter or dispel these new abilities, juts ignoring subtle spell is too much for me.

I don't agree with the ruling personally, but I can understand the desire.


Yes this is right, it is a error, the damage should be 9

This does get a little problematic when added below


He does have the extra damage invocation and metamagic talent (so he has more SP than a common sorcerer of that level), he also got a tome of charisma, having +6 bonus

Lifedrinker adds on necrotic damage, which Vecna should resist like Chill Touch. That means the Warlock did (meaningfully, so ignoring round 1) 16 damage that Vecna shouldn't have taken. There is also the fact that Vecna should have just Dread Counterspelled the Quickened Booming Blade he got hit by, which would have just negated that entire 36.


A single hit with a +1 flame tongue with both hands. It was one of the best rolls we saw... ever. 1d10+1 + 6d8 (eldritch smite goes 1d8 + 1d8/spell level, so he used a 5th level slot) + 2d6 + 12 from thirsting blade and hex warrior. He got 73 out of 83.

Hexwarrior? Do you mean Hexblade's Curse? The numbers don't quite add up for that, but also when did the Warlock even tag him with that? Their bonus action was occupied for Rounds 1 and 2, and it has a pretty short range. So he used it on Round 3 before the smited attack?


Ok for this you got to know some particularities of my group. 1st, I dont agree the monk was a nuisance, she was putting up reliable damage and Vecna couldn't get away from her (remember at level 15 monk speed is 55 feet and her reach was 10 feet due o fangs of the fire snake), that aside, she has the lowest HP from the group, due to poor rolling, if she had failed her saving throw (thus taking 104 damage) she would be done for, the wizard got 6´s and 5´s through his career and has more HP than her, he also had made 27 points of damage at that time and Vecna can reliably shut him down with his counter spell. The warlock would be even worse, he has high HP, and way higher AC, wouldn't got down even taking a full rotten fate and last but not least he has Tomb of Levistus, so Vecna would simply waste his action and thats something I didnt wanted. I know that its easier to see better paths after the fight is done, but both the wizard and the warlock would not have died and even if the wizard was brought down by the damage, the cleric would have him up with his channel divinity that cannot be counter spelled. So the monk seem to me the best target for that action at that time.

This heavily feels like you using knowledge of the party to make decisions, rather than trying to play Vecna, to elaborate on that:

- The Monk couldn't Stun him and was dealing damage that was within bounds of his self heal, that's why I referred to them as a nuisance. (that and it sounds like they were burning Ki fast enough that they would have significantly dropped off in a round or 2

- You decided against targeting the Warlock even though they were the largest issue because of HP, AC, and tomb of levistus. Vecna not only wouldn't have that information, it would still be worth going after him anyway. What was the Warlock's AC? It couldn't have been particularly high without a shield or Defense. And triggering Tomb of levistus is a win for Vecna, it takes the Warlock out of consideration for a turn, letting him heal up without worrying about Chill Touch.

- You mention the Cleric's CD, but that can be taken out of the equation entirely by Afterthought.



The direction that he went was within 30 feet of the warlock, he was going for the wizard next round after that magic missile.

How far away was the Wizard? The room was only 80 ft. long and he can cover 60ft. on his turn between movement and the bonus teleport.


Yeah I didn't like that either, I used because in the video or in the dossier it is said he open up the encounter with it, plus is his recharge ability and this being a play test, I went as suggested

That guidance isn't in the adventure or the dossier (no idea about a video), but it does give the guidance that he will try and kill any PC with healing/rez magic. So under guidance he should have immediately just killed the Cleric.

The adventure also lists other details about the sanctum (and if you're using that as a recommendation, you should probably include the effects intended to go along with it) including:

- Healing does half the amount it normally does for others
- The walls are made of grappling Zombies that give exhaustion


Dominate monster on the rogue was on the to do list, but that would get a counter spell by the warlock or the wizard. So he would probably just lose his action.

They would have to roll to Counterspell it, and he has a superior version of Counterspell. Generally speaking, he should never lost a Counterspell fight.

It's also worth noting that he makes his two attacks with Afterthought when using spells too, so even Counterspell would only knock him down to two attacks + the teleport.


I hope that I could clarify your questions and give you more input behind the rationale of some of my decisions as well as the damage numbers.

It does thank you, I think that the errors (both in administering the rules and tactically) killed Vecna, if you subtract the damage he shouldn't have taken (and counterspell the Booming Blade) the outcome is different I think:

Adding it up but applying necrotic resistance, CSing the Booming Blade, and removing the incorrect Bigby's damage you end up with 241, leaving Vecna with 32 HP and next in the initiative, so realistically he'd get another turn out with 112HP and the Monk down (probably dead). As the Monk was one of the more consistent sources of damage, and with the Warlock significantly down on resources, IMO it leaves the outcome up in the air to say the least.




Why 90 ft? Fell rebuke can only take you 30 feet.

Not my comment but I think this is combining his move with Vile Teleport and Fell Rebuke, since the Monk would have to contend against all of them to get their full routine off.



The warlock and the wizard had counter spell, He would not be able to pull it off

Between line of sight and the superior dread counterspell, he shouldn't really be losing CS contests.

[Rafaelfras]

As a DM, it's HARD to play high-level casters perfectly optimally, especially when high level PCs have a lot of tricks they can pull out.
I would be shocked if someone managed to run Vecna perfectly with no mistakes or suboptimal choices.

High end monsters have to be sturdy enough to survive some DM mistakes.

Yup, I agree very strongly with that. I do things at the heat of the moment that sometimes we regret. Bosses should be able to live some of it (not too much ofc, but at least some)

[Psyren]

Just to clear this one up:



- The Wizard is problematic, I'm assuming by 'Hide' behind a pillar you meant take cover, because they don't have the action economy to actually attempt to hide.




This is correct, and it is just one wizard.




I'm confused why you said it's just one Wizard, but thanks for confirming it was cover/LoS based tactics


DF used a singular they there, they weren't saying it was more than one wizard.



As a DM, it's HARD to play high-level casters perfectly optimally, especially when high level PCs have a lot of tricks they can pull out.
I would be shocked if someone managed to run Vecna perfectly with no mistakes or suboptimal choices.

High end monsters have to be sturdy enough to survive some DM mistakes.

I agree - but that's why I think it's more valuable to plan out "here's how long I want this climactic boss battle to last if the party is using good tactics" and tailor the arena and any minions/backup/features to your boss' favor to deliver that, than it is to plop a lone boss into a small room and then look nonplussed as they get anticlimactically dogpiled into haggis. As we concluded in the last thread, lots of caster bosses will underperform in such a scenario, and moreover we just replaced one-sided vision with one-sided cover via V employing weak tactics.

[Dork_Forge]

Just to clear this one up:

DF used a singular they there, they weren't saying it was more than one wizard.


Ohh it was because i said they, I just try to make references to characters gender neutral for the most part unless I'm aware of a clear gender for them.

Good spot though, thanks

[Rafaelfras]

Thank you, I really appreciate this kind of dialogue.


Me too



I'm confused why you said it's just one Wizard, but thanks for confirming it was cover/LoS based tactics
Sorry English isn't my first language, when you said they cant hide it seemed to me you was talking aboult several people.




Err, the hand just grapples so there shouldn't have been advantage at all?

But IMO the difference does matter, using Clenched Fist means that Vecna gets to use Fell Rebuke, forcing a Con save, chipping the Wizard, and giving him more favourable positioning (this mostly just factors into can the Monk make all of their attacks, their speed and reach is extreme, but throwing another 30 ft. in there could be meaningful).
True but again I wouldn't use fell rebuke against the hand, I would wait for dread counter spell the wizard used his bonus action first, as I said it his intent was to do damage so if I said "you cant grapple and do damage " he would have done fist and I wouldn't use fell rebuke. I understand if even so you want to discard the damage, but I will stand to not erasing it




Lifedrinker adds on necrotic damage, which Vecna should resist like Chill Touch. That means the Warlock did (meaningfully, so ignoring round 1) 16 damage that Vecna shouldn't have taken. There is also the fact that Vecna should have just Dread Counterspelled the Quickened Booming Blade he got hit by, which would have just negated that entire 36.
He has life drinker for so long that I really forgot that this damage is necrotic, (I even remember now we had some conversation to change to radiant because his back story, not that it matter to this) for the booming blade, I really wanted to change Vecna position, dont remember why now, but it seemed a good idea at the time



Hexwarrior? Do you mean Hexblade's Curse? The numbers don't quite add up for that, but also when did the Warlock even tag him with that? Their bonus action was occupied for Rounds 1 and 2, and it has a pretty short range. So he used it on Round 3 before the smited attack?


Hex Warrior
At 1st level, you acquire the training necessary to effectively arm yourself for battle. You gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and martial weapons.

The influence of your patron also allows you to mystically channel your will through a particular weapon. Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls. This benefit lasts until you finish a long rest. If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon's type. He didn't used hexblade curse, he gets charisma to damage because of this and life drinker




This heavily feels like you using knowledge of the party to make decisions, rather than trying to play Vecna, to elaborate on that:

- The Monk couldn't Stun him and was dealing damage that was within bounds of his self heal, that's why I referred to them as a nuisance. (that and it sounds like they were burning Ki fast enough that they would have significantly dropped off in a round or 2

- You decided against targeting the Warlock even though they were the largest issue because of HP, AC, and tomb of levistus. Vecna not only wouldn't have that information, it would still be worth going after him anyway. What was the Warlock's AC? It couldn't have been particularly high without a shield or Defense. And triggering Tomb of levistus is a win for Vecna, it takes the Warlock out of consideration for a turn, letting him heal up without worrying about Chill Touch.

- You mention the Cleric's CD, but that can be taken out of the equation entirely by Afterthought.
I couldn't help when I though of targeting the warlock "Damn he will survive this and then use tomb of levistus if I try again". If I did target him in turn 2 the monk would have landed all her attacks instead of just one, and the Warlock would still be around to do the smite If Vecna went out of reach he would have used his bow (he has improved pact weapon so he can smite with that too)




How far away was the Wizard? The room was only 80 ft. long and he can cover 60ft. on his turn between movement and the bonus teleport.
Sorry, I dont remember



That guidance isn't in the adventure or the dossier (no idea about a video), but it does give the guidance that he will try and kill any PC with healing/rez magic. So under guidance he should have immediately just killed the Cleric.

The adventure also lists other details about the sanctum (and if you're using that as a recommendation, you should probably include the effects intended to go along with it) including:

- Healing does half the amount it normally does for others
- The walls are made of grappling Zombies that give exhaustion

The Cleric healed (try to at least) on round 2, after Vecna almost killed the monk, so we didnt got time for that but I was intending to put in practice he or the wizard would be the next. The walls and the healing reduction where in place, the players avoided the walls.



They would have to roll to Counterspell it, and he has a superior version of Counterspell. Generally speaking, he should never lost a Counterspell fight.

It's also worth noting that he makes his two attacks with Afterthought when using spells too, so even Counterspell would only knock him down to two attacks + the teleport.

They can upcast it.




It does thank you, I think that the errors (both in administering the rules and tactically) killed Vecna, if you subtract the damage he shouldn't have taken (and counterspell the Booming Blade) the outcome is different I think:

Adding it up but applying necrotic resistance, CSing the Booming Blade, and removing the incorrect Bigby's damage you end up with 241, leaving Vecna with 32 HP and next in the initiative, so realistically he'd get another turn out with 112HP and the Monk down (probably dead). As the Monk was one of the more consistent sources of damage, and with the Warlock significantly down on resources, IMO it leaves the outcome up in the air to say the least.

You welcome, as I said earlier I dont remember why I went with the teleport instead of CS but it seemed a good idea for positioning,
For the damage, if we keep both booming blade and the Bigby fist (as I said, the wizard would have used the fist if we didn't glossed over that he could not do damage with the grapple) it still would be enough. So its fine by me. I totally understand your conclusion and if you disagree with my counter arguments presented here and Vecna is still alive, I still think the outcome would be the same, because we have an assassin that maybe could finally land a hit making it a 5 person group for the first time in the fight a wizard and a cleric both with 8th level spell slots and the warlock that could use smite again before Vecna could try another 80 hit point heal. But again I understand if you disagree

[Dork_Forge]

Sorry English isn't my first language, when you said they cant hide it seemed to me you was talking aboult several people.

Don't worry about it, your English is better than my... anything but English!



True but again I wouldn't use fell rebuke against the hand, I would wait for dread counter spell the wizard used his bonus action first, as I said it his intent was to do damage so if I said "you cant grapple and do damage " he would have done fist and I wouldn't use fell rebuke. I understand if even so you want to discard the damage, but I will stand to not erasing it


Ahh, you were hoping to counter the Wizard, but they used an item so you couldn't anyway. I can understand having plans that don't work out.


He has life drinker for so long that I really forgot that this damage is necrotic, (I even remember now we had some conversation to change to radiant because his back story, not that it matter to this) for the booming blade, I really wanted to change Vecna position, dont remember why now, but it seemed a good idea at the time


It doesn't seem to have had an impact on the fight (melee PCs still get into melee trivially, Vecna never reached the Wizard etc.), but again the value of hindsight.


He didn't used hexblade curse, he gets charisma to damage because of this and life drinker

Ohh you were referring to normal weapon damage, my bad


I couldn't help when I though of targeting the warlock "Damn he will survive this and then use tomb of levistus if I try again". If I did target him in turn 2 the monk would have landed all her attacks instead of just one, and the Warlock would still be around to do the smite If Vecna went out of reach he would have used his bow (he has improved pact weapon so he can smite with that too)

Either I'm greatly misunderstanding the Warlock or the player and yourself are. If the Warlock has bonded with the +1 Flametongue, then he shouldn't be able still create weapons with the Pact of the Blade feature, just summon the Flame Tongue. He could still apply Charisma instead of Dex because of Hexwarrior, but he doesn't get two Pact weapons and can't use Eldritch Smite with both. It also would be iff action economy wise since it takes an action to summon or create the weapon.

Am I just missing something here?


The Cleric healed (try to at least) on round 2, after Vecna almost killed the monk, so we didnt got time for that but I was intending to put in practice he or the wizard would be the next. The walls and the healing reduction where in place, the players avoided the walls.

Good to know, thanks!


They can upcast it.

Only the Wizard can upcast it to avoid the roll, though I thought he might have used his 8th level slot for the hand, given the damage and that they used their robe instead of casting an 8th level spell.

Even if the attempt was made he could Dread Counterspell it (I don't think it's likely they both would have tried to counter it, but even if they both did and the Warlock rolled well enough if needed, that would deprive them of a 5th level slot to Smite with).


You welcome, as I said earlier I dont remember why I went with the teleport instead of CS but it seemed a good idea for positioning,
For the damage, if we keep both booming blade and the Bigby fist (as I said, the wizard would have used the fist if we didn't glossed over that he could not do damage with the grapple) it still would be enough. So its fine by me. I totally understand your conclusion and if you disagree with my counter arguments presented here and Vecna is still alive, I still think the outcome would be the same, because we have an assassin that maybe could finally land a hit making it a 5 person group for the first time in the fight a wizard and a cleric both with 8th level spell slots and the warlock that could use smite again before Vecna could try another 80 hit point heal. But again I understand if you disagree

In terms of changing things:

Given that the Fell Rebuke doesn't seem to given any benefit at all, I'm not sure why you wouldn't swap it out given hindsight?

For the hand, the strike could still have landed, but at least Vecna could have Fell rebuked out of it and chipped the Wizard, potentially running the Monk or Warlock out of range.

I end up still thinking it's in the air, the Cleric and Assassin didn't really achieve anything and the Assassin is just a subclassless Rogue at this point of the combat. A Globe of Invulnerability and Dread Counterspell would have neutered the casters immensely (no nova Magic Missile or Chill Touch). But I appreciate you sharing your experience with things.

[Kane0]

Thanks for the report! Im interested to see if my DM can kill us at level 12 (with some artifacts and bonus feats).

[Rafaelfras]

Either I'm greatly misunderstanding the Warlock or the player and yourself are. If the Warlock has bonded with the +1 Flametongue, then he shouldn't be able still create weapons with the Pact of the Blade feature, just summon the Flame Tongue. He could still apply Charisma instead of Dex because of Hexwarrior, but he doesn't get two Pact weapons and can't use Eldritch Smite with both. It also would be iff action economy wise since it takes an action to summon or create the weapon.

Am I just missing something here?

The way I understood it, you still can use an action to create a pact weapon if you dont want to use the magic one that you have bound (the second part of pact of the blade does not cancel the first, it would be a huge drawback for improved pact weapon for example), but reading it again I think you are right

You can then dismiss the weapon, shunting it into an extradimensional space, and it appears whenever you create your pact weapon thereafter.
Thank God he didn't do this during this fight, but since we do things like this for 7 years now it will remain as a house rule ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



In terms of changing things:

Given that the Fell Rebuke doesn't seem to given any benefit at all, I'm not sure why you wouldn't swap it out given hindsight?

For the hand, the strike could still have landed, but at least Vecna could have Fell rebuked out of it and chipped the Wizard, potentially running the Monk or Warlock out of range.

I end up still thinking it's in the air, the Cleric and Assassin didn't really achieve anything and the Assassin is just a subclassless Rogue at this point of the combat. A Globe of Invulnerability and Dread Counterspell would have neutered the casters immensely (no nova Magic Missile or Chill Touch). But I appreciate you sharing your experience with things.

I think it is because the intent. Even if it didnt work, I wanted to move instead of stop the spell and payed for that mistake. Same thing with the hand, the intent was to do damage, not to grapple, and the grapple had no effect. The necrotic damage on the other hand needs to go because he has that resistance. Or I just want Vecna dead haha.

But my main point is still that a cr 26 shouldn't struggle this much against a level 15 party, where only 3 members where effectively participating. He should have destroyed then.
When they faced Iymrith 2 sessions ago, with all 8 of then in he eye of the all-father, the conditions where the same, they both popped into each other, without preparations but I built her using the direction I believe a strong caster boss should be (since it is said that she is a very accomplished sorceress) and they had to run away for their lives. Thats what i expected from Vecna.
Thank you too, I appreciated this greatly

Edit: I remember now why, I used fel rebuke instead of dread counterspell. The warlock used quick BB before his action. Had I used the counterspell he could have followed with the attack action for 2 more attacks. It was after the teleport that he follows up with subtle chill touch. Thinking about it he probably would use chill touch regardless and even if he didnt I could tank it and heal just after, but I now remember and wanted to clarify the rationale for it


Thanks for the report! Im interested to see if my DM can kill us at level 12 (with some artifacts and bonus feats).
You welcome, please report that when he does, I am very interested to know