OOTS #1266 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[malakim2099]

Oh this is gonna be GREAT. :biggrin:

[Gurgeh]

Wow, a what a swing from comedy to a genuinely scary look at Xykon's mindset... and back to comedy.

I wonder whether the deal compels Xykon to obey, or if there's some leeway and he's not so much being forced to run-on his sentences so much as scrambling to find something that won't void the agreement?

[TaRix]

Xykon? Consequences? COUNTING? Oh, the anti-humanity!

[Yxylu]

One potential effect of this is that it creates a convenient way to write the quinton out of the story quickly and painlessly. Just have Xykon say the wrong thing. Also, most spellcasting is just naming the spell, not speaking in sentences. That limits Xykon’s power substantially, if the quinton wants to be a stickler for the rules. But what are that odds of that?

[Alexandrite]

Xykon is definitely going to stick to this deal and there's absolutely no chance of him getting bored and roasting this guy.

I give him five pages.

[RMS Oceanic]

Been a while since we had a glimpse of Xykon's inner life.

[super dark33]

Xykon can just Whedon it and end every sentence with "Thing", itll tip the scales for Evil in the end anyway!

[Aeson]

I wonder, will Xykon figure out that he can make this work by addressing every sentence to "Red?"

"D--- it, Red!"
"Now I get to do this the way that I want, Red!"
"This sucks, Red!"

[RMS Oceanic]

One potential effect of this is that it creates a convenient way to write the quinton out of the story quickly and painlessly. Just have Xykon say the wrong thing. Also, most spellcasting is just naming the spell, not speaking in sentences. That limits Xykon’s power substantially, if the quinton wants to be a stickler for the rules. But what are that odds of that?

"Energy Drain", "Meteor Swarm", "Fireball, Maximized", "Lightning Bolt, Empowered". I think he's good.

[Ivrytwr]

... and hilarity ensued.
This will be fun to watch. Plus a good deal of insight into motivation. Honestly rooting for Redcloak to win more, he is smarter and better motivation.
Thanks Giant.

[Hiro Quester]

this is going to be a hilarious couple of days, for redcloak.

And this is a great distillation of the kind of power Xykon respects and wants: the ability to kill anyone who tries to tell him what to do.

But Im still confused as to why a being of pure order thinks this minor increase in order (by Xykon ending all sentences with a word with an odd number of letters) is a benefit, while helping Redcloak and Xykon achieve a goal that Xykon thinks will enable him to be truly chaotic and have god-defying levels of power.

[Wintermoot]

thank god "energy drain" is eleven letters.


If I was him, I would get in the habit of ending every sentence with ",bastard."

Make it an easier verbal tic to get accustomed to, you bastard.

[Pablo360]

I wonder, will Xykon figure out that he can make this work by addressing every sentence to "Red?"

"D--- it, Red!"
"Now I get to do this the way that I want, Red!"
"This sucks, Red!"

Alternatively, he could end every sentence with, “dattebayo!”

[Reboot]

Well, I think we can safely say now that, whatever suspicions he has, Xykon has NOT realised that The Plan won't help him one bit.

[RMS Oceanic]

Alternatively, he could end every sentence with, “dattebayo!”

If words with hyphens are allowed maybe he could weeb out and say "n-nani?"

[deworde]

Wait, "That (4) was (3) accidental(10)" is an odd number, did Redcloak miscount?

[Yxylu]

"Energy Drain", "Meteor Swarm", "Fireball, Maximized", "Lightning Bolt, Empowered". I think he's good.

If I were a being of pure law, I might point out that those aren’t sentences, but collections of words.

Something like Meld Into Stone could count, since that could be read as a command, but that’s not a sorcerer spell.

Being an insufferable pedant is sort of my schtick, so this comic is right up my alley.

[Rinazina]

this limit is superfun, I completely not see this trolling coming from the Quinton, and now the bet is in who is going to taunt Xykon well enough to make him finish a sentence wrongly.

I bet the majestic beast under the umbrella would do it!


Alternatively, he could end every sentence with, “dattebayo!”

haahah! genius!

[Windscion]

Takeaway: Xykon doesn't know what the ritual does. But as long as he can kill RC, he feels in control.
Takeaway # 2: Xykon is ... really committed to his evil schtick. He wants to tell the multiverse "You're not my mom! You can't tell me what to do."

[Yxylu]

Wait, "That (4) was (3) accidental(10)" is an odd number, did Redcloak miscount?

“Accidental” is even. Only the last word matters, not the whole sentence.

[Resileaf]

Turns out the when the GM is creative, payment for services rendered by a being made of pure order can be far more interesting than what the players expected.

[deworde]

“Accidental” is even. Only the last word matters, not the whole sentence.
Ah, I misread and thought it was the whole sentence. That would be far harder to manage as an author, seems disastrous.

[SlashDash]

At first I was annoyed because I, for obvious reasons, kept counting letters.
But when Xykon started doing it... This is comedy gold.

The way this strip went from him being scary to being a joke again is astounding.
And I mean that as the highest form of compliment.

[Sir_Norbert]

The Quinton is quickly becoming one of my favourite characters :)

[Grey Watcher]

Wow, a what a swing from comedy to a genuinely scary look at Xykon's mindset... and back to comedy.

I wonder whether the deal compels Xykon to obey, or if there's some leeway and he's not so much being forced to run-on his sentences so much as scrambling to find something that won't void the agreement?

I parsed it as the latter, but I suppose we shall see.

Also, Redcloak's glee in the last panel is just infectious.

Also, the Quinton's request is an interesting subversion of a trope I've seen sometimes, where characters that, in D&D terms, would be described as Lawful (especially supernatural creatures) seem weirdly attached to nonsensical and arbitrary rules even though they should, in theory, hate such capriciousness. But here, while the request is weird and arbitrary and stupid in its face, the Quinton actually has a reason for asking for it.

Also, it's just so perfectly petty that the only way Xykon can bring himself to do this is if HE'S the one making the stupid, arbitrary rule.

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Thoroughly enjoyed that punchline. :smallbiggrin:

[Coppercloud]

This is just perfect. Thank you so much Giant! This strip answers a few questions, some of which I didn't even know I had. Progress is made, all characters display their personality, and I find it to be one of the most funny strips in the whole awesome comic. I'm in awe. And yes, I did carefully word this comment.

[Crusher]

I'm speechless. That was amazing. It hit on like 5 different levels. Fantastic strip. Probably in my top 10 favorite strips ever.

[infinityman]

Xykon closing his eye-holes to emphasize a point really tickles my funny... bone. I see what I did there.

[Psyren]

BRB, stealing this idea for Planar Binding/Gate in my own games. This is just the kind of wacky thing an outsider would care about that a mortal wouldn't even notice.

Also, the fact that Xykon is a greater source of chaos than literal demons is a pretty interesting (though unsurprising) revelation.

[Peelee]

BRB, stealing this idea for Planar Binding/Gate in my own games. This is just the kind of wacky thing an outsider would care about that a mortal wouldn't even notice.

Also, the fact that Xykon is a greater source of chaos than literal demons is a pretty interesting (though unsurprising) revelation.

Eh, the demons don't do much other than provide (quality) commentary.

[Fyraltari]

Because Redcloak deserved something today.

[Taevyr]

One potential effect of this is that it creates a convenient way to write the quinton out of the story quickly and painlessly. Just have Xykon say the wrong thing. Also, most spellcasting is just naming the spell, not speaking in sentences. That limits Xykon’s power substantially, if the quinton wants to be a stickler for the rules. But what are that odds of that?

As the proposed solution inherently enforces their production, the odds of that would be exactly 100%.


Brilliant strip, just beautiful

[HalfTangible]

I have not laughed so hard at anything in a long time, including OOTS

Thank you Rich

[drazen]

This is going to bite Xykon. He agreed to ending EVERY sentence with a word with an odd number of letters. But he did NOT specify it was for the duration of the task.

Those terms and conditions they skipped are going to come back to haunt him, aren't they?

Also I guess Durokan had a premium subscription, no ads during his Gate summon in Start of Darkness! Or is that just a Law thing?

[Quizatzhaderac]

I smell an upcoming situation where Xykon benefits from choosing his words carefully.

[Wildstag]

I'm betting that instead of using a roundabout word for the Snarl, Xykon will end up having to use its name/title since it's an odd-numbered word. The quinton will pick up on it but due to writing constraints we won't have another neutral party take interest in the fate of this world.

Although... the entities of Neutral Law would probably be interested in ways to mitigate the Snarl's future shenanigans, so maybe the Quinton will take interest.

[Psithur]

One potential effect of this is that it creates a convenient way to write the quinton out of the story quickly and painlessly. Just have Xykon say the wrong thing. Also, most spellcasting is just naming the spell, not speaking in sentences. That limits Xykon’s power substantially, if the quinton wants to be a stickler for the rules. But what are that odds of that?

It's like what Elan said so long ago: "A 10% chance is pretty unlikely, but everyone knows that a one-in-a-million chance is a sure thing!"

[LarsWester]

I love that Xykon just made his life more difficult by switching to odd number of letters. He really has such a child's mentality.

[HalfTangible]

This is going to bite Xykon. He agreed to ending EVERY sentence with a word with an odd number of letters. But he did NOT specify it was for the duration of the task.


"for the duration of the task", second panel.

Xykon proposed an amendment, not a new deal.

[Psyren]

Because Redcloak deserved something today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTCPux9REXo


This is going to bite Xykon. He agreed to ending EVERY sentence with a word with an odd number of letters. But he did NOT specify it was for the duration of the task.

Those terms and conditions they skipped are going to come back to haunt him, aren't they?

Also I guess Durokan had a premium subscription, no ads during his Gate summon in Start of Darkness! Or is that just a Law thing?

Fighting in that battle likely qualified as an "immediate task." Per the spell entry: "You need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature(s) help" for those, ergo no ads.


"for the duration of the task", second panel.

Xykon proposed an amendment, not a new deal.

This, and besides, what good would it do for the agreement to last longer than the Quinton's service? Xykon would simply break it at that point and lose nothing as the Quinton would already be gone.

[Laurentio III]

This is Belkar in the fight with ice giants ALL AGAIN.
Belkar and Xykon have so much to share!

(For reference: the DOOMSEALER! https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1054.html)

Proposal for a Fanfic: Redcload and Right-Eye meets the OotS minus Belkar and by an unordinary number of coincidences, they became allies and go in a quest to kill Xykon and "secure" the gates (don-don!).

Meanwhile, a malevolus halfling and his just coincidentally lich buddy kidnap a mysterious monster in a box.
:belkar: "That was hylarious, Xykon. What are we going to do tomorrow night?"
:xykon: "The same thing we do every night, Belkar - try to take over the world!"

[littlebum2002]

Meanwhile, a malevolus halfling and his just coincidentally lich buddy kidnap a mysterious monster in a box.
:belkar: "That was hylarious, Xykon. What are we going to do tomorrow night?"
:xykon: "The same thing we do every night, Belkar - try to take over the world!"

This would be a great SS&DT-esque bonus comic: what would happen if Belkar had accepted Tsutsiko's offer to switch sides? Imagine how much fun Xykon would have randomly slaughtering creatures for fun with Belkar.

[Laurentio III]

I love that Xykon just made his life more difficult by switching to odd number of letters. He really has such a child's mentality.
I don't know, loser.
There are tricks either way, silly.
You just need to think out of the box... box.

[Kantaki]

Ultimately evil is always self-defeating.:smallbiggrin:
Though in Xykon's case it might be the chaotic part playing a greater role.
Even if I don't think the chaotic good characters would've started this discussion.:smallamused:

[Gift Jeraff]

Just end every sentence with "...so says Xykon." Or go the movie gangster route and say "see."

[littlebum2002]

I love that Xykon just made his life more difficult by switching to odd number of letters. He really has such a child's mentality.

I wonder if this is true. Are there more words in English (or common) with odd letters or even letters?

[Ionathus]

This is genuinely delightful. Next time my players encounter a high-order modron, I'm stealing this.

What an awesome strip. Redcloak arguing with Xykon is always fun, and it's cool to see Redcloak actually put some oomph behind this one and get what he wants. Curious to see if this prompts them to have any more debates...

Also: I love how Xykon does his tiny rebellion against the request by picking odd numbered words instead of even numbered. I can't imagine it will actually affect anything -- I think it really is just like a kid convincing themselves that they're agreeing to something on their own terms by altering the terms insignificantly. Feels like just a straight-up ego move.

My guess is that this is magically compelled, and Xykon is just forced to keep talking until he hits an odd-numbered word :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: "[Spell Name], dumbass" is a good fallback and even has precedent from Xykon's fight with Darth Vaarsuvius.

[Kurald Galain]

Turqoise bicycle shoe fins actualize radishes greenly!

[diplomancer]

Xycon is the one mass-murdering maniac I find myself telling "don't ever change, Xycon".

[ZhonLord]

This is more crippling than first glance would indicate, because casting a spell counts as a sentence. And as a sorcerer, xykon can't just swap his spells out.

Let's look at the spells we know xykon has and whether the final words they end on is odd or even:

Even:
Superb dispelling, Animate Dead, symbol of pain, [any] teleport, [any] hold person, symbol of insanity, [any] fireball, soul bind, cloister

Odd:
Energy drain, Overland Fly, cloudkill, contingency, finger of death, ghostform, meteor swarm, magic missile


Xykon will either have to not use those spells, or work them into sentences like when he went "MAXIMIZED energy drain, dumbass!" On Varsuvius. Either way, having to stop and think about that in combat will slow him down and might even make him slip up. If he fails to maintain the price, the Quinton might even Gate out the instant he slips.

[Tundar]

Xykon is definitely going to stick to this deal and there's absolutely no chance of him getting bored and roasting this guy.

I give him five pages.

Five? That's alot (although an odd number, hehe). He is pure chaos, I give him 3.

[Laurentio III]

Xycon is the one mass-murdering maniac I find myself telling "don't ever change, Xycon".
... we know Xykon can discern a "X" by a "Z".
Can he discern "K" by a "C"?
If so you are toasted! (comma) Diplomancer!

[Fyraltari]

This is more crippling than first glance would indicate, because casting a spell counts as a sentence.

Doesn't have to, he can also integrate them into a sentence, for example:

:xykon: So, MAXIMIZED energy drain, dumbass. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

[Yxylu]

This is more crippling than first glance would indicate, because casting a spell counts as a sentence. And as a sorcerer, xykon can't just swap his spells out.

Let's look at the spells we know xykon has and whether the final words they end on is odd or even:

Even:
Superb dispelling, Animate Dead, symbol of pain, [any] teleport, [any] hold person, symbol of insanity, [any] fireball, soul bind, cloister

Odd:
Energy drain, Overland Fly, cloudkill, contingency, finger of death, ghostform, meteor swarm, magic missile


Xykon will either have to not use those spells, or work them into sentences like when he went "MAXIMIZED energy drain, dumbass!" On Varsuvius. Either way, having to stop and think about that in combat will slow him down and might even make him slip up. If he fails to maintain the price, the Quinton might even Gate out the instant he slips.

Of the spells you list, though, only a couple (Animate Dead, Hold Person, maybe Teleport) could be considered a sentence (subject and verb). The rest are just dependent clauses or free-floating words, and Xykon can speak “only in sentences ending in words containing an odd number of letters.”

“Energy Drain” is not a sentence at all, so would violate the terms regardless of the number of letters in “Drain.”

[arimareiji]

Wondering if the Giant wrote this with a goal in mind: To set a new upper bound for how silly we could get quibbling over details in his writing, as if they're ironclad rules that Must. Be. Obeyed. by even the writer.

As opposed to being simple twists and turns in a road that he's still paving toward a destination that he knows and we don't. (^_~)b

[Sutremaine]

I wonder if this is true. Are there more words in English (or common) with odd letters or even letters?

One could go back and look at all of Xykon's dialogue to see which of those words he uses at the end of a sentence. In this strip he naturally uses even-letter words for the sake of the joke, but maybe it'd be different if you considered his dialogue over the past in-comic week or month.

[drazen]

"for the duration of the task", second panel.

Xykon proposed an amendment, not a new deal.
This, and besides, what good would it do for the agreement to last longer than the Quinton's service? Xykon would simply break it at that point and lose nothing as the Quinton would already be gone.

The quinton said for the duration. Xykon most certainly did NOT specify that, nor did he say it was a revision. He said his version was THE deal, take it or leave it. And the order of a(n) (un)lifetime of odd words is functionally negligble from that of the length of the task, on a cosmic scale.

As for why would it matter, Redcloak only specified the quinton keep a mental record of the dungeon(s) rooms, not that it actually SHARE it with them.

I'm married to an attorney, I can nitpick all day. 😄

[HalfTangible]

This is more crippling than first glance would indicate, because casting a spell counts as a sentence.

What makes you say that?

[Wintermoot]

Of the spells you list, though, only a couple (Animate Dead, Hold Person, maybe Teleport) could be considered a sentence (subject and verb). The rest are just dependent clauses or free-floating words, and Xykon can speak “only in sentences ending in words containing an odd number of letters.”

“Energy Drain” is not a sentence at all, so would violate the terms regardless of the number of letters in “Drain.”

I suppose, rereading it, you COULD claim that the skeleton in the crown is REQUIRED to speak in full, grammatically complete sentences, disallowing single terms or sentence fragments. But I suspect that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny by whatever contractual disputation resolution authority a potential disagreement would find itself adjucated by.

Twisting laws and finding loopholes isn't particularly lawful, but rather a chaotic and/or evil way to twist lawfulness.

[Riftwolf]

My mind immediately went to Xykon ending every sentence with 'bro', turning him into the world's first Surfer Lich.
(Alternatively he could end it with 'brother' and become Lich Hulk Hogan)

[hroþila]

You can tell The Giant is really committed to this comic because he just forced himself to keep track of this for every line that Xykon speaks in the future.

[Yxylu]

I suppose, rereading it, you COULD claim that the skeleton in the crown is REQUIRED to speak in full, grammatically complete sentences, disallowing single terms or sentence fragments. But I suspect that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny by whatever contractual disputation resolution authority a potential disagreement would find itself adjucated by.

Twisting laws and finding loopholes isn't particularly lawful, but rather a chaotic and/or evil way to twist lawfulness.

I’m going to side with the being of pure law being as particular about it as possible. I could be wrong, of course, but I think the wording is pretty specific.

Say nothing at all? Just fine!

Say a sentence that ends with a word with odd letters? That’s cool!

Say a sentence that ends with a word with even letters? We’re done here.

Say something other than a sentence? I’m leaving.

The requirement was “speak only in sentences ending in words containing an [odd] number of letters.” Not that each sentence needs to end that way, but that everything Xykon says needs to be a sentence ending in an appropriate word.

[HalfTangible]

The quinton said for the duration. Xykon most certainly did NOT specify that, nor did he say it was a revision. He said his version was THE deal, take it or leave it. And the order of a(n) (un)lifetime of odd words is functionally negligble from that of the length of the task, on a cosmic scale.

As for why would it matter, Redcloak only specified the quinton keep a mental record of the dungeon(s) rooms, not that it actually SHARE it with them.

I'm married to an attorney, I can nitpick all day. 😄

That still wouldn't matter if the task is already completed. There's no conceivable way to enforce an eternal commitment to speaking in such a manner and everyone present knows it, therefore there's no reason to expect the terms to change so drastically just because it wasn't re-stated.

[El_Chupacabra]

How could this be enforced? I could think of a few ways:

1. Magical compulsion - Xykon cannot stop talking until the terms are met. Can that brick spells? I'd think no, because of the "Maximized energy drain, dumbass!" option; sounds like spells can be contained within a sentence.
2. Auto-breach and termination of contract -- failure to properly finish a sentence means the quinton stops helping and gates away. Side effect -- really pissing off red, or perhaps they get stuck in an area that's not trivial to escape?
3. Some sort of inflicted penalty? Side effect -- annoying Xykon or possibly even somehow "harming" him to the point he goes aggro on the quinton. Obviously for plot reasons he'll "win" but that will mean some serious repurcussions for "fighting the gods".

[hroþila]

The requirement was “speak only in sentences ending in words containing an [odd] number of letters.”
If he's going to get so nitpicky about it, then Xykon could rightfully argue that that wasn't the deal. Because Xykon didn't just change the word "even" to "odd", he changed the whole deal to "I'll end every sentence with a word with an odd number of letters", and the quinton accepted it, so Xykon only needs to do the thing if he speaks a proper sentence.

[ZhonLord]

You can tell The Giant is really committed to this comic because he just forced himself to keep track of this for every line that Xykon speaks in the future.
Only for two days. It's not like a single day's events could last for 48 pages from beginning (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) to end (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html), thereby requiring a minimum of half a year of constant script tracking to get to where xykon can talk normally again.... Right?

[Jasdoif]

You can tell The Giant is really committed to this comic because he just forced himself to keep track of this for every line that Xykon speaks in the future.And after Haley's "a new substitution cipher every strip" aphasia, too!

[ZhonLord]

And after Haley's "a new substitution cipher every strip" aphasia, too!
That cipher still gets to me, even years later. Every single page, just to up the ante......

[Psyren]

You can tell The Giant is really committed to this comic because he just forced himself to keep track of this for every line that Xykon speaks in the future.

"For the duration of the task."



The quinton said for the duration. Xykon most certainly did NOT specify that, nor did he say it was a revision. He said his version was THE deal, take it or leave it. And the order of a(n) (un)lifetime of odd words is functionally negligble from that of the length of the task, on a cosmic scale.

As for why would it matter, Redcloak only specified the quinton keep a mental record of the dungeon(s) rooms, not that it actually SHARE it with them.

I'm married to an attorney, I can nitpick all day. 😄

Redcloak did describe a termination condition for the agreement, which the Quinton agreed to: "We want to search every corridor as quickly as possible until we find {the object of our search}, or until we've checked them all." The service is not open-ended. Even if it was open-ended, the spell itself would only allow the Quinton to remain for less than three weeks (i.e. Redcloak's level.)

The italicized portion is what the Quinton is referring to with its two-day estimate - that's how long it believes checking all the doors will take.

[arimareiji]

My mind immediately went to Xykon ending every sentence with 'bro', turning him into the world's first Surfer Lich.
(Alternatively he could end it with 'brother' and become Lich Hulk Hogan)

Thaaaaaanks, now I have filkworms of one of the world's most nauseatingly treacly/inane songs (Surfer Girl) (https://youtu.be/FpfZRO8WCQA?t=17) circling around in my head. (^_~)

[Askthepizzaguy]

This reminds me of the time the babysitter Rosalyn made a deal with Calvin to be good all night, and it worked.

The offer had to be pretty sweet, but it worked.

[Peelee]

You can tell The Giant is really committed to this comic because he just forced himself to keep track of this for every line that Xykon speaks in the future.

Imean, I assumed he was committed to the comic because he quit his day job some two decades ago to focus on the comic full-time, but yeah, that also works.

[gatemansgc]

Xykon is definitely going to stick to this deal and there's absolutely no chance of him getting bored and roasting this guy.

I give him five pages.

well yeah can't have them actually either finding the gate or finding that NONE of the doors lead to the gate (more likely)!

[Peelee]

"for the duration of the task", second panel.

Xykon proposed an amendment, not a new deal.
This, and besides, what good would it do for the agreement to last longer than the Quinton's service? Xykon would simply break it at that point and lose nothing as the Quinton would already be gone.

The quinton said for the duration. Xykon most certainly did NOT specify that, nor did he say it was a revision. He said his version was THE deal, take it or leave it. And the order of a(n) (un)lifetime of odd words is functionally negligble from that of the length of the task, on a cosmic scale.

As for why would it matter, Redcloak only specified the quinton keep a mental record of the dungeon(s) rooms, not that it actually SHARE it with them.

I'm married to an attorney, I can nitpick all day. 😄

Ask your spouse how consideration applies to Xykon's counter offer. And then brace yourself for the inevitable diatribe and potential divorce proceedings for making them revisit contract law. :smallamused:

[gatemansgc]

My mind immediately went to Xykon ending every sentence with 'bro', turning him into the world's first Surfer Lich.
(Alternatively he could end it with 'brother' and become Lich Hulk Hogan)

xykon would want to find the easiest possible solution to this!

[Doug Lampert]

Of the spells you list, though, only a couple (Animate Dead, Hold Person, maybe Teleport) could be considered a sentence (subject and verb). The rest are just dependent clauses or free-floating words, and Xykon can speak “only in sentences ending in words containing an odd number of letters.”

“Energy Drain” is not a sentence at all, so would violate the terms regardless of the number of letters in “Drain.”

I cast Energy Drain.
I cast Animate Dead, dumbass.

Both sentences. Both ending in a word with an odd number of letters. No problem casting spells, oddly.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Of the spells you list, though, only a couple (Animate Dead, Hold Person, maybe Teleport) could be considered a sentence (subject and verb). The rest are just dependent clauses or free-floating words, and Xykon can speak “only in sentences ending in words containing an odd number of letters.”

“Energy Drain” is not a sentence at all, so would violate the terms regardless of the number of letters in “Drain.”

Is this Xykon's final boss? It's not destroying monsters or heroes, it's remembering finicky details and adhering to his own agreements.

I think Xykon has good odds of losing this particular challenge all of a sudden. His greed might not be superior to his boredom and loathing of details.

He might remember the odd part, he probably will forget the sentence part.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I never realized how much I missed Redcloak being happy. Isn't that the very first time we see him genuinely smiling ever since we left Gobbotopia?


Also, that panel "Whether or not I can kill them is the only thing that matters in any situation" was absolutely chilly, while being a great characterization of Xykon. That's the kind of panel that I will remember for a long time, and I long for the time when he will finally be proven wrong, just before his demise.

[Kurald Galain]

I note that Xykon basically spells out that he intends to kill Redcloak once their effort is complete.

...of course, Redcloak expected that already and has other plans, but I wonder if Xykon is going to catch on to the fact that Redcloak is not overly concerned about being killed.

[HalfTangible]

I never realized how much I missed Redcloak being happy. Isn't that the very first time we see him genuinely smiling ever since we left Gobbotopia?


Also, that panel "Whether or not I can kill them is the only thing that matters in any situation" was absolutely chilly, while being a great characterization of Xykon. That's the kind of panel that I will remember for a long time, and I long for the time when he will finally be proven wrong, just before his demise.

Killing him would kind of prove that point anyway.

[Psyren]

well yeah can't have them actually either finding the gate or finding that NONE of the doors lead to the gate (more likely)!

It's possible that the Quinton will notice the latter, if there is some quirk to the areas behind the SecOps shunts that its ordered mind can readily pick up on. It might even just notice that they are being shunted in general; OotS has already established that outsiders have unique sensory perception for magical effects (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) that mortals don't.

[Breccia]

Math teacher here.

What I love about this is twofold, which is ironically even:

1) A number chosen at random odd/even is effectively a coin flip. The skeletal human with the crown just asked for a nickel after flipping Heads three times with a quarter.

2) The "take it or leave it" deal, seemingly offered as an attempt to renegotiate or get one over on the forces of Order, and the negotiation tactic failed immediately.

EDIT: Also, both "Roy" and "Greenhilt" are odd, so, by forgetting his name, he's doing himself a dissservice.

[danielxcutter]

I parsed it as the latter, but I suppose we shall see.

Also, Redcloak's glee in the last panel is just infectious.

Also, the Quinton's request is an interesting subversion of a trope I've seen sometimes, where characters that, in D&D terms, would be described as Lawful (especially supernatural creatures) seem weirdly attached to nonsensical and arbitrary rules even though they should, in theory, hate such capriciousness. But here, while the request is weird and arbitrary and stupid in its face, the Quinton actually has a reason for asking for it.

Also, it's just so perfectly petty that the only way Xykon can bring himself to do this is if HE'S the one making the stupid, arbitrary rule.

Yeah, this is a way better method of doing that than "but these are the rules I cannot self-terminate beep boop". Soooo much better.


I note that Xykon basically spells out that he intends to kill Redcloak once their effort is complete.

...of course, Redcloak expected that already and has other plans, but I wonder if Xykon is going to catch on to the fact that Redcloak is not overly concerned about being killed.

Yup. That "..." is quite omnious.


Killing him would kind of prove that point anyway.

I assume the Giant will find some way to make his inevitable demise all the more satisfying one way or another. We just have to wait and see how.


It's possible that the Quinton will notice the latter, if there is some quirk to the areas behind the SecOps shunts that its ordered mind can readily pick up on. It might even just notice that they are being shunted in general; OotS has already established that outsiders have unique sensory perception for magical effects (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) that mortals don't.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot that one. Actually, scratch the "almost".


Math teacher here.

What I love about this is twofold, which is ironically even:

1) A number chosen at random odd/even is effectively a coin flip. The skeletal human with the crown just asked for a nickel after flipping Heads three times with a quarter.

2) The "take it or leave it" deal, seemingly offered as an attempt to renegotiate or get one over on the forces of Order, and the negotiation tactic failed immediately.

EDIT: Also, both "Roy" and "Greenhilt" are odd, so, by forgetting his name, he's doing himself a dissservice.

Yup, at heart Xykon's really just an immature kid who never grew up.

[Particle_Man]

Is anyone else going through this thread to see whose posts are imitating the "end sentences with odd letters" deal undertaken by Xykon?

[Fyraltari]

I don't think we talk enough about how great of a villain Xykon is. He's funny and oddly likeable but also chilling and detestable at the same time without it feeling contradictory in any way.

This page does a great job showing the workings of his mind, as Redcloak himself notes. The "the only thing that matters..." Is pretty great but "I shouldn't have to do anything to anyone ever" and "there's no one in existence that can ever tell me what to do again" are even more revelatory if you ask me. Xykon is a supercentennarian with the quasi-moral solipsicism of an infant. Of course, it's not that he lacks the mental faculty to empathize with others, it's that he actively refuses to. To Xykon nothing matters beyond his random whims and he'll throw a tantrum if frustrated in any way or if offered the slightet criticism, no matter how-constructive. To the point that he yields to the quinton's demands only if he gets to act like he's in control.

He's pathetic and we love him for it.

[Shining Wrath]

Xykon can cast any spell he wants thus:

I cast the verbal component beginsName of SpellVerbal Component Ends spell! I don't think there's any rule about making sounds before or after the verbal component.

[danielxcutter]

I don't think we talk enough about how great of a villain Xykon is. He's funny and oddly likeable but also chilling and detestable at the same time without it feeling contradictory in any way.

This page does a great job showing the workings of his mind, as Redcloak himself notes. The "the only thing that matters..." Is pretty great but "I shouldn't have to do anything to anyone ever" and "there's no one in existence that can ever tell me what to do again" are even more revelatory if you ask me. Xykon is a supercentennarian with the quasi-moral solipsicism of an infant. Of course, it's not that he lacks the mental faculty to empathize with others, it's that he actively refuses to. To Xykon nothing matters beyond his random whims and he'll throw a tantrum if frustrated in any way or if offered the slightet criticism, no matter how-constructive. To the point that he yields to the quinton's demands only if he gets to act like he's in control.

He's pathetic and we love him for it.

Yeah, he doesn't feel like the type who genuinely doesn't understand... he feels like the type who actively doesn't practice empathy out of spite.

[RabidEel]

If words with hyphens are allowed maybe he could weeb out and say "n-nani?"

Hey, if "I-- I must succeed" counted as four words...

[GregTD]

So now Xykon can't end any sentence with a four letter word.

IN his childish desire to assert himself, he really screwed himself over

[Windscion]

This keeps bugging me, so I'll post it and get ignored.
Xykon says "I already fixed those when I became a lich."
It was Redcloak's idea for Xykon to become a lich. Also, RC pointed out that the plants in their prison could be used as materials for the process. While Xykon might have lichified himself eventually, it seems more likely (absent RC) that he would have died of old age.

Summary: When RC tells Xykon he is being childish, Xykon responds childishly.

[danielxcutter]

This keeps bugging me, so I'll post it and get ignored.
Xykon says "I already fixed those when I became a lich."
It was Redcloak's idea for Xykon to become a lich. Also, RC pointed out that the plants in their prison could be used as materials for the process. While Xykon might have lichified himself eventually, it seems more likely (absent RC) that he would have died of old age.

Summary: When RC tells Xykon he is being childish, Xykon responds childishly.

Oh my, what a surprising development.

[ZhonLord]

I just had a silly thought for how this will get ruined.


Invisible Serini: "hey xykon, I bet you can't even add two plus two."
Xykon: "of course I can, dumbass! It's four!"
Quinton: "the price for my aid has been forfeit. Our contract is at an end!"

Xykon: proceeds to unleash a string of four-letter swear words while casting spells at random

[Breccia]

Is anyone else going through this thread to see whose posts are imitating the "end sentences with odd letters" deal undertaken by Xykon?

Well, you did.

[Tzardok]

Well, you did.

You did too. :smallbiggrin:

[Fyraltari]

This keeps bugging me, so I'll post it and get ignored.
Xykon says "I already fixed those when I became a lich."
It was Redcloak's idea for Xykon to become a lich. Also, RC pointed out that the plants in their prison could be used as materials for the process. While Xykon might have lichified himself eventually, it seems more likely (absent RC) that he would have died of old age.

Summary: When RC tells Xykon he is being childish, Xykon responds childishly.

That's correct but I doubt it's a mistake.
Xykon is never going to praise Redcloak for anything. Also, even though he doesn't actually enjoy being a lich that much (because of the loss of his taste buds) this is the third time he's claimed to having become one by choice (the first time was when lecturing Redcloak at the end of SoD and the second when lecturing V in his tower) so I think there's an element of denial on his part about this.

[sihnfahl]

well yeah can't have them actually either finding the gate or finding that NONE of the doors lead to the gate (more likely)!
They need to find the gate cause it's the last one. The story doesn't approach the climax without the final Gate being in peril.

[PontificatusRex]

I don't recall Redcloak ever looking as flat-out happy as he does in the last panel.

[Wintermoot]

I’m going to side with the being of pure law being as particular about it as possible. I could be wrong, of course, but I think the wording is pretty specific.

Say nothing at all? Just fine!

Say a sentence that ends with a word with odd letters? That’s cool!

Say a sentence that ends with a word with even letters? We’re done here.

Say something other than a sentence? I’m leaving.

The requirement was “speak only in sentences ending in words containing an [odd] number of letters.” Not that each sentence needs to end that way, but that everything Xykon says needs to be a sentence ending in an appropriate word.

Yes, but you are enforcing your own biased definition of what a sentence is. Based, most likely, off of what some high school grammar teacher beat into you.

OED: "a set of words that is complete in itself, typically containing a subject and predicate, conveying a statement, question, exclamation, or command, and consisting of a main clause and sometimes one or more subordinate clauses."

Any set of words (set being 1:N) that is complete in itself, is a sentence. It only TYPICALLY contains a subject and a predicate, its not essential or necessary.

So if someone yells out a single curse word (insert your favorite that trips the auto censor here) with one or more exclamation points after, it still qualifies.

Likewise, if you cast as spell "Energy Drain" you are CERTAINLY conveying a statement, question, exclamation or command" without having a subject and a verb.

Grammatically incorrect sentences ending with prepositions or dangling clauses are still sentences. Being poorly constructed does not invalidate them.

So if you REALLY REALLY want to play the "any lawful creature is going to rules lawyer every statement as cunningly and underhandedly as possible" then go all the way down and you loop back around to any string of 1:N words Xykon utters with a hard stop at the end qualifies as a sentence.

personally, I don't buy it. *shrug* I see people argue this when they want to show "lawful" as being the same as "evil" and I don't buy in.

[Ionathus]

Only for two days. It's not like a single day's events could last for 48 pages from beginning (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) to end (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html), thereby requiring a minimum of half a year of constant script tracking to get to where xykon can talk normally again.... Right?

I'll do you one better: if I'm not misreading it, I do believe that everything from 836 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) to 946 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) is also in the span of a single day.

[Rrmcklin]

Yes, but you are enforcing your own biased definition of what a sentence is. Based, most likely, off of what some high school grammar teacher beat into you.

OED: "a set of words that is complete in itself, typically containing a subject and predicate, conveying a statement, question, exclamation, or command, and consisting of a main clause and sometimes one or more subordinate clauses."

Any set of words (set being 1:N) that is complete in itself, is a sentence. It only TYPICALLY contains a subject and a predicate, its not essential or necessary.

So if someone yells out a single curse word (insert your favorite that trips the auto censor here) with one or more exclamation points after, it still qualifies.

Likewise, if you cast as spell "Energy Drain" you are CERTAINLY conveying a statement, question, exclamation or command" without having a subject and a verb.

Grammatically incorrect sentences ending with prepositions or dangling clauses are still sentences. Being poorly constructed does not invalidate them.

So if you REALLY REALLY want to play the "any lawful creature is going to rules lawyer every statement as cunningly and underhandedly as possible" then go all the way down and you loop back around to any string of 1:N words Xykon utters with a hard stop at the end qualifies as a sentence.

personally, I don't buy it. *shrug* I see people argue this when they want to show "lawful" as being the same as "evil" and I don't buy in.

Just commenting because this deserves a thumbs up.

[Ruck]

Xykon closing his eye-holes to emphasize a point really tickles my funny... bone. I see what I did there.

Reminds me of "I'm dead, I shouldn't have to mess around with beds at all anymore! (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html)"


Just end every sentence with "...so says Xykon." Or go the movie gangster route and say "see."

"Now you just keep being Santa, see? And never die, see? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6uGzx-fptg)"


Also: I love how Xykon does his tiny rebellion against the request by picking odd numbered words instead of even numbered. I can't imagine it will actually affect anything -- I think it really is just like a kid convincing themselves that they're agreeing to something on their own terms by altering the terms insignificantly. Feels like just a straight-up ego move.

Oh, it definitely is. Redcloak even takes pains to draw the comparison directly to a child not wanting to eat their vegetables or take a nap.


Twisting laws and finding loopholes isn't particularly lawful, but rather a chaotic and/or evil way to twist lawfulness.

It is Lawful to twist laws and find loopholes. Chaotic people will just outright ignore or break the laws.

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah, he doesn't feel like the type who genuinely doesn't understand... he feels like the type who actively doesn't practice empathy out of spite.

He admits to and delights in being evil. He's not Tarquin who thinks he's doing evil things for the betterment of society and someday Elan will understand.

[Gorgon_Heap]

This is hilarious. Xykon is so childishly belligerant he'll dunk on himself rather than let somebody else do it.

Now the question is - will the deal keep him from using important vocal spell components? ;)

[Eric the White]

So now Xykon can't end any sentence with a four letter word.

IN his childish desire to assert himself, he really screwed himself over

Right? All he had to do was end every sentence with a 4 letter word. Now he has to end them all with a**.

[tradman]

The best and funniest strip in the history of this comic (yes I've read every page from the beginning). Kudos!

[alceryes]

Thoroughly enjoyed that punchline. :smallbiggrin:
Definitely!
RC may enjoy this MORE than finding the gate! Love it!

[Wintermoot]

It is Lawful to twist laws and find loopholes. Chaotic people will just outright ignore or break the laws.


And this is not true. (I feel like I have to put IMO here even though that should be understood)

It is lawful to MAKE laws. It is evil to then twist those laws into loopholes. Sadly, its normalized now to conflate the two and say "being lawful means you are going to twist laws into loopholes" which is why some voices in our community default to "oh you are lawful, then you are going to try and trick me because all lawful people do that"

Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral are not doing the same thing as Lawful Evil.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Yes, but you are enforcing your own biased definition of what a sentence is. Based, most likely, off of what some high school grammar teacher beat into you. And of course, the teacher didn't study linguistics in collage, they studied literature there.

[KorvinStarmast]

Xykon scores an own goal.

I suspect that Rich had a lot of fun writing this strip, what with all of the gotcha moments.

I noticed again that the roaches are telegraphing a demonic origin. Roaches as moles planted by IFCC crops up again - trying to recall their origins, was that in SoD?

[Mariele]

Thaaaaaanks, now I have filkworms of one of the world's most nauseatingly treacly/inane songs (Surfer Girl) (https://youtu.be/FpfZRO8WCQA?t=17) circling around in my head. (^_~)
I have that song on my MP3 Player. Love it, the Beach Boys had so many great songs. It is very catchy!

This is interesting. Not sure how much this would really affect things, since Xykon could just do a verbal tic at the end of his sentence of his sentences that would always make them end in an odd-numbered word... but he'll have to remember that. Not sure if that'll be a problem for him or not.

[warmachine]

For Redcloak's sake, let's hope there isn't a cultural misunderstanding. The quinton estimated completion in 2 full rotations, which Redcloak interpreted as rotations of the planet, but the quinton may be referring to some clockwork mechanism in his plane and didn't listen to Redcloak's conversation with Xykon as a courtesy. I doubt there's a cosmos wide and complete convention of units of measure.

[sihnfahl]

which Redcloak interpreted as rotations of the planet
And even that is open to talk. Which rotation, though? The one on its axis, or the rotation around the sun?

[Tzardok]

I noticed again that the roaches are telegraphing a demonic origin. Roaches as moles planted by IFCC crops up again - trying to recall their origins, was that in SoD?

They were hanging around in that succubus-led restaurant Xykon and Redcloak used to frequent and decided to just tag along.

[arimareiji]

This keeps bugging me, so I'll post it and get ignored.
Xykon says "I already fixed those when I became a lich."
It was Redcloak's idea for Xykon to become a lich. Also, RC pointed out that the plants in their prison could be used as materials for the process. While Xykon might have lichified himself eventually, it seems more likely (absent RC) that he would have died of old age.

Summary: When RC tells Xykon he is being childish, Xykon responds childishly.

I'm sure it's been pointed out before, perhaps even in the story itself and I missed it, but does this mean they had lich-en growing in their prison?

[Peelee]

And even that is open to talk. Which rotation, though? The one on its axis, or the rotation around the sun?

The first is rotation. The second is revolution.

[Wintermoot]

For Redcloak's sake, let's hope there isn't a cultural misunderstanding. The quinton estimated completion in 2 full rotations, which Redcloak interpreted as rotations of the planet, but the quinton may be referring to some clockwork mechanism in his plane and didn't listen to Redcloak's conversation with Xykon as a courtesy. I doubt there's a cosmos wide and complete convention of units of measure.

Unix time.

[Fyraltari]

And this is not true. (I feel like I have to put IMO here even though that should be understood)

It is lawful to MAKE laws. It is evil to then twist those laws into loopholes.

Wouldn't finding loopholes in unjust or evil laws be good, though? Like Mr. Incredible pointedly not telling the old lady how (in great details) to make sure the insurance company he works for will fork over the money she's owed.

[Coppercloud]

Is anyone else going through this thread to see whose posts are imitating the "end sentences with odd letters" deal undertaken by Xykon?
I did for the first two pages. I must admit, I am a little disappointed that this rule wasn't spontaneously adopted by all members. I dunno, it seems obvious. I actually just used it for several unrelated short messages on Discord. Seems like a rather easy rule of "constrained writing".

As a side note, there is an easy solution for Uncle Xykon. When in doubt, just append every sentence with the word "bitch".

[Ruck]

And this is not true. (I feel like I have to put IMO here even though that should be understood)

It is lawful to MAKE laws. It is evil to then twist those laws into loopholes.


Wouldn't finding loopholes in unjust or evil laws be good, though?

Yeah, whether manipulating the laws or finding loopholes is good or evil depends on your reasons and motivations for doing so.

[newplan]

The March occurred every seventeenth Grand Cycle of Mechanus. A Grand Cycle was the time it took for the largest gear in the plane to turn once and was subdivided into seventeen cycles, each of which took seventeen years. Thus, the March occurred every 289 years

(from the forgotten realms wiki)

Pretty sure everyone thinking the estimate that it will take 2 *days* is pretty far off..

[Wintermoot]

Wouldn't finding loopholes in unjust or evil laws be good, though? Like Mr. Incredible pointedly not telling the old lady how (in great details) to make sure the insurance company he works for will fork over the money she's owed.

As someone who works for an insurance company:

good isn't smugly corrupting the regulations you work under while continuing to collect a paycheck.

good would be quitting or working to make the regulations better.

That being said, yeah, there is certainly room for nuance and a spectrum here as there should be. Both IRL and in the game.

Regardless, the choice to undermine the agreement and look for and utilize that loophole falls on the Good <==> Evil spectrum. It's not Lawful. If you absolutely have to find a way to shoehorn it onto the Law <==> Chaos spectrum, it is on the Chaotic side, not the Lawful one.

[arimareiji]

good isn't smugly corrupting the regulations you work under while continuing to collect a paycheck.

good would be quitting or working to make the regulations better.

That being said, yeah, there is certainly room for nuance and a spectrum here as there should be.

If an organization's regulations explicitly instruct you to cause harm, then 1) they are evil and 2) the only lawful action is to quit. Ymmv on the degree to which it can be good to infiltrate them, since at best you'll sometimes have to cause minor harm in the pursuit of a greater good.

But if the organization's regulations make it dreadfully easy to cause harm, and encourage you to cause harm, but don't explicitly require you to cause harm... if they're effectively the only game in town, then staying can be an unquestionably-good action. Ymmv (very widely) on whether it may sometimes be in line with neutral, or neutral-shading-toward-lawful to pervert authority without disobeying it (especially if doing so in line with a higher authority).

Preventing authorities from doing as much harm as they wish for their own gain isn't a non-good act, unless you view them as some form of higher power who must be obeyed and their own personal good somehow is the greater good.

[elros]

I have consumed a lot of D&D in my life, and I have never encountered a twist as unexpected, original, and consistent as the quinton's request. The update also provides more insight into Xykon, while foreshadowing how Redcloak will have to deal with Xykon.
Just a brilliant comic.

[LadyEowyn]

As someone who works for an insurance company:

good isn't smugly corrupting the regulations you work under while continuing to collect a paycheck.

good would be quitting or working to make the regulations better.

That being said, yeah, there is certainly room for nuance and a spectrum here as there should be. Both IRL and in the game.

Regardless, the choice to undermine the agreement and look for and utilize that loophole falls on the Good <==> Evil spectrum. It's not Lawful. If you absolutely have to find a way to shoehorn it onto the Law <==> Chaos spectrum, it is on the Chaotic side, not the Lawful one.

He wasn’t “smugly corrupting” the regulations. He was telling her the precise set of deliberately obstructive and confusing regulations she would need to follow in order to get the money which she was legitimately owed.

His bosses were, in effect, ordering him not to do his job. He was subverting company procedure in order to actually do his job.

[Zakaarus]

back in azure city when he was killing tsukiko, redcloak said he uses magic to keep xykon in control if i recall correctly. This entire time I've been almost certain that whenever xykon has agreed to something redcloak has been using turn/command undead, including this one.

[Fyraltari]

back in azure city when he was killing tsukiko, redcloak said he uses magic to keep xykon in control if i recall correctly. This entire time I've been almost certain that whenever xykon has agreed to something redcloak has been using turn/command undead, including this one.

No, he said he used magic to control Tuskiko's wights (Command Undead) but for Xykon, more subtle means (lying) are required. Note that Redcloak does not have a dweomer (the magic aura of casting a spell) around his hands at any point in the conversation.

[Crimsonmantle]

No, he said he used magic to control Tuskiko's wights (Command Undead) but for Xykon, more subtle means (lying) are required. Note that Redcloak does not have a dweomer (the magic aura of casting a spell) around his hands at any point in the conversation.it's a hilarious headcanon though!

[Ruck]

He wasn’t “smugly corrupting” the regulations. He was telling her the precise set of deliberately obstructive and confusing regulations she would need to follow in order to get the money which she was legitimately owed.

His bosses were, in effect, ordering him not to do his job. He was subverting company procedure in order to actually do his job.

He who? I don't know what this is referencing.

[Fyraltari]

He who? I don't know what this is referencing.

Mr. Incredible, from the animated superhero movie, The Incredibles.

[Laurentio III]

Mr. Incredible, from the animated superhero movie, The Incredibles.
Mr. Incredible is the poster boy for "Good Lawful instead of Lawful Good".

[Arthaiser]

maybe im wrong, but i think that what the quinton means with rotation is different that what redcloak means. redcloak thinks that it means day, so he is thinking 48 hours. maybe the quinton is referencing the great wheel on his plane, which completes a rotation every 289 years. so he is expecting to complete the task in less than 578 years.

[alceryes]

(from the forgotten realms wiki)

Pretty sure everyone thinking the estimate that it will take 2 *days* is pretty far off..

Wholeheartedly agree!
I think the absolute nature of the quinton, (and modrons in general) in following the letter of the law, is going to bite RC in the arse.
My guess is that the search won't get past the 2nd set of doors before RC realizes how long it will take, but then the quinton clues him in on the teleporting with some off-handed comment right as RC is dismissing him.

[Dellmarcus]

This is one of the funniest OoTS strips in a long time. I laughed REALLY hard at how the tables turned on Xykon. Also, I have a hunch that the "demon" won't be teleporting with the others as an extraplanar being, which will end the search pretty quickly. ;)

[Laurentio III]

maybe im wrong, but i think that what the quinton means with rotation is different that what redcloak means. redcloak thinks that it means day, so he is thinking 48 hours. maybe the quinton is referencing the great wheel on his plane, which completes a rotation every 289 years. so he is expecting to complete the task in less than 578 years.
The spell had a maximal duration expressed in days, so no.

[Psychronia]

Oh, this is going to be fun. I don't think Xykon has ever been quite this miserable, nor will he ever be again. No, not even the day he dies is going to top the next two days, assuming they don't coincide. He's totally gonna try to kill the Quinton when this is all over though.

Forcing the "kill 'em all" thoughtless lich to think is indeed a nice payment in establishing order on the multiverse. Well, assuming it doesn't find out their goal.

Actually, would it be able to terminate the contract if it finds out? Also, is Xykon compelled to speak or will him ending a sentence with even letters break the contract as well? Presumably the latter, since Xykon wouldn't be forced to think about it otherwise.

[Reboot]

Actually, would it be able to terminate the contract if it finds out? Also, is Xykon compelled to speak or will him ending a sentence with even letters break the contract as well? Presumably the latter, since Xykon wouldn't be forced to think about it otherwise.

I think he's compelled to try, but it's like being compelled not to step on cracks in the pavement - your foot doesn't get teleported to the middle of each tile, you have to place your foot. Similarly, he's compelled to keep going until he ends a sentence with an odd-lettered word, but it doesn't put a word into his head, and he has to keep rambling until he reaches a valid stopping point.

OTOH, if he really fought it, he must have a decent chance of making a will save, but then he really would have broken the contract.

[b_jonas]

Hmm. Given that Xykon doesn't sleep, Redcloak can't cast enough Silence spells to keep it up continuously throughout the whole two days. Perhaps if he and Oona both prepare only Silence, nothing else, and they have some magic items or metamagic feats to extend the duration, then it would be enough, but then who harms Xykon during the battles?

[CountDVB]

Really, this sums up Xykon so well and shows how much of the epitome of a psychotic immature brat he us. I suspect this may be commented on at some point.

Maybe a couple of the non-evil Chaotic-aligned characters will point out how petty and nonsensical it is… and the shoe drops and they wonder if this how obnoxious Chaotic characters can be (which, given the potshots toward Lawful characters thus far, seems fair.) Heck, Elan would naturally lampshade the whole thing.

But yeah, Redcloak’s own surprise and shock is funny here too. Like, you don’t think Dark One feels the same… or you have.

So we have a psychotic brat, an angsty teen and a juvenile monster, who’s apparently the most mature and sane member of Team Evil.

[Shining Wrath]

It is glorious to see Xykon be bossed around by something he could kill easily. What he just learned about power is that it takes different forms, and the ability to map a huge dungeon in your head is a power he lacks. If he had a nose, it would have just been rubbed in something.

It is interesting that the quintron said "full rotations", not "days". It could be important, or it could be just a modron's view of the world. Hard to know. The question as to what could be rotating, other than OotS-world, is interesting. Not a plane - that takes years, Redcloak can't bind him for this long.

BTW - how does the quintron know this can be done in two full rotations, no matter how long they are? He hasn't been outside, he hasn't seen the number of doors, he has no idea how large the whole complex is. For all he knows he just got asked to map 2 billion doors each with 3 million rooms behind it.

[DougTheHead]

Tired: Xykon can easily circumvent this by ending every sentence with "Red" or "Redcloak."

Wired: Xykon can easily circumvent this by ending every sentence with "Morty."

[Peelee]

He wasn’t “smugly corrupting” the regulations. He was telling her the precise set of deliberately obstructive and confusing regulations she would need to follow in order to get the money which she was legitimately owed.

His bosses were, in effect, ordering him not to do his job. He was subverting company procedure in order to actually do his job.

I disagree - his job is to be part of the obstructive process. His bosses were ordering him to do his job, and by instructing her, he was doing the opposite of his job. Welcome to healthcare administration. It sucks.

[orrion]

2 thoughts occurred to me:

1) I would have agreed and ended every sentence with a 4 letter curse word serving as punctuation. There's enough of them for some variety, too.

2) I'm thinking Rich will be of Xykon's opinion before this is over.

Bonus thought:

3) I expect that when Xykon's had enough, the last sentence the Quinton will hear will end with "Meteor Swarm!" because it fits.

[LookieLouE1707]

what happens if xykon is interrupted? can we assume there's language in those terms and conditions that specifies under what circumstances nonperformance is held to have violated the contract.


As someone who works for an insurance company:

good isn't smugly corrupting the regulations you work under while continuing to collect a paycheck.

good would be quitting or working to make the regulations better.

That being said, yeah, there is certainly room for nuance and a spectrum here as there should be. Both IRL and in the game.

Regardless, the choice to undermine the agreement and look for and utilize that loophole falls on the Good <==> Evil spectrum. It's not Lawful. If you absolutely have to find a way to shoehorn it onto the Law <==> Chaos spectrum, it is on the Chaotic side, not the Lawful one.

it seems to me you are begging the question here, assuming it is evil to undermine or corrupt an agreement, but there's no moral component there unless you conflate lawfulness and goodness. from a non-LG perspective there's nothing wrong with cheating or lying. there's nothing wrong with making a mockery of the process, undermining confidence in it, making the whole machinery collapse into a farce, that may even be a goal.

moreover it is begging the question to even describe searching for loopholes as corrupting or undermining the agreement. you may be assuming that original intent is the proper litmus for how an agreement should be interpreted or enforced, but that is actually not a lawful position. the lawful position sticks to the literal letter of the law, even when it would go against the intent of the parties (barring language to the contrary in the agreement). and "looking for loopholes" is just a pejorative way of referring to the finest parsing of the law, to the strictest enforcement of its small details. that is actually the highest form of respect for the law.

let us suppose a contract says a panda is in compliance if he "eats, shoots, and leaves". a strict lawful perspective would require him to use a firearm at mealtime even if the obvious intent of the contract (barring some erroneous punctuation, perhaps via autocorrect) was merely to specify what he should be eating.

[Red XIV]

3) I expect that when Xykon's had enough, the last sentence the Quinton will hear will end with "Meteor Swarm!" because it fits.

Joke's on Xykon. Quintons are resistant to fire.

[danielxcutter]

Joke's on Xykon. Quintons are resistant to fire.

You know that Xykon's response would be more fire.

[jokem]

Does Xykons deal apply to spell casting?

[Devils_Advocate]

Also, the Quinton's request is an interesting subversion of a trope I've seen sometimes, where characters that, in D&D terms, would be described as Lawful (especially supernatural creatures) seem weirdly attached to nonsensical and arbitrary rules even though they should, in theory, hate such capriciousness. But here, while the request is weird and arbitrary and stupid in its face, the Quinton actually has a reason for asking for it.
Well, that's the trick, isn't it? Any rule seems "nonsensical and arbitrary" when you don't know the reason for it. Knowing what motivates the attachment to a rule can make it feel reasonable, apparently even if the motivation amounts to "I like arbitrary rules being followed"!

So the trope is basically just "mysterious beings with unclear motives care about rules".


[Modrons] represent the idea of Law as an implacable and incomprehensible force. They are at their best when portrayed as being so single-mindedly focused on some long term goal that they actually don’t even care about you. Sometimes they destroy your village, sometimes they don’t, and there’s really no predicting that sort of thing unless you’re knowledgeable about the Big Plan. Now I know what you’re thinking... that having a plan so convoluted and far ranging that mortal minds cannot grasp it or predict its unfolding is actually indistinguishable from not having a plan at all and just performing actions at random. And yeah... that’s true. That’s D&D alignment for you.
- FrankTrollman and K


It is lawful to MAKE laws.
No, it's Lawful to follow laws. You can absolutely have a Chaotic Evil overlord who demands absolute obedience from his underlings but categorically refuses to submit to anyone else's authority.

I could follow that up with "Xykon seems like a good example of just such a character", but... he's not, really. That's not his general management style. Xykon seems perfectly happy to leave his minions to their own devices for the most part, relying on them to find ways to remain in his favor and thus avoid horrible death at his bony hands. But I maintain that his relatively rare specific edicts, like forbidding Redcloak from regenerating his eye, aren't even "minor Lawful acts compatible with Chaotic alignment", but just plain not Lawful.

Now, if a villain is willing to enforce his commands even when doing so is inconvenient, because his own authority is important to him... I wouldn't say that that villain necessarily is Lawful, but I would call that a Lawful facet of his character. Like, he's probably not Chaotic. He's willing to accept restrictions on his actions. (Although only being willing to accept self-imposed restrictions strikes me as still being Chaotic, personally. But I dislike lack of discipline being mandatory for Chaotic characters; saying that it is mandatory may be the less biased reading of the text.)


It is evil to then twist those laws into loopholes.
Let's just say that if you think that undermining the purpose of a law or a contract is more inherently Evil than, say, violence, you have, um, an unconventional interpretation of the alignment system.


you may be assuming that original intent is the proper litmus for how an agreement should be interpreted or enforced, but that is actually not a lawful position.
Hence classifying it as Good. It certainly doesn't seem Chaotic nor Evil, and every ethical position on everything must fall on one end of one of the alignment axes, so it must be Good.

[Provengreil]

It's possible that the Quinton will notice the latter, if there is some quirk to the areas behind the SecOps shunts that its ordered mind can readily pick up on. It might even just notice that they are being shunted in general; OotS has already established that outsiders have unique sensory perception for magical effects (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html) that mortals don't.

Someone, I think it was Roy, already outright told us that the caves could only be straight lines anyway in order to fit, and yet I don't think they are. The fact that Team Evil hasn't noticed that the caverns behind the doors should be intersecting but aren't leads to two conclusions:

1: They bought the shell game even harder than we thought.
2. They noticed the teleportation, but still thought the Gate was behind a door anyway.

Seeing as they care about the quinton mapping the place, I expect 1 is the right answer. I give it maybe 3 doors before they realize they've been had with the swap overs (even if it notices the teleport the quinton might not bring it up: the task given may or may not cover that depending on how you interpret it). The Order's meeting is about to get interrupted by whatever alarm Serini set up.

I also think this sheds new light on the Redcloak/Xykon gambit pileup we see, about who's really in control. I just don't quite have enough info to know exactly what it means. We find that Xykon hates being told what to do and Redcloak already knew that, to the point that Xykon only really cares about whether or not he can kill you...but that's not really info we didn't have, it's just words that we might not have chosen about those ideas. I think it ends up as a point to Redcloak because ultimately Xykon took the deal in exactly the way Redcloak has always claimed to control him: Lose the argument, let Xykon claw back some control, and get everything you actually asked for anyway.

[Phhase]

And this is not true. (I feel like I have to put IMO here even though that should be understood)

It is lawful to MAKE laws. It is evil to then twist those laws into loopholes. Sadly, its normalized now to conflate the two and say "being lawful means you are going to twist laws into loopholes" which is why some voices in our community default to "oh you are lawful, then you are going to try and trick me because all lawful people do that"

Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral are not doing the same thing as Lawful Evil.

We need more neutral yet functional representations of Law.

[danielxcutter]

Someone, I think it was Roy, already outright told us that the caves could only be straight lines anyway in order to fit, and yet I don't think they are. The fact that Team Evil hasn't noticed that the caverns behind the doors should be intersecting but aren't leads to two conclusions:

1: They bought the shell game even harder than we thought.
2. They noticed the teleportation, but still thought the Gate was behind a door anyway.

Seeing as they care about the quinton mapping the place, I expect 1 is the right answer. I give it maybe 3 doors before they realize they've been had with the swap overs (even if it notices the teleport the quinton might not bring it up: the task given may or may not cover that depending on how you interpret it). The Order's meeting is about to get interrupted by whatever alarm Serini set up.

I also think this sheds new light on the Redcloak/Xykon gambit pileup we see, about who's really in control. I just don't quite have enough info to know exactly what it means. We find that Xykon hates being told what to do and Redcloak already knew that, to the point that Xykon only really cares about whether or not he can kill you...but that's not really info we didn't have, it's just words that we might not have chosen about those ideas. I think it ends up as a point to Redcloak because ultimately Xykon took the deal in exactly the way Redcloak has always claimed to control him: Lose the argument, let Xykon claw back some control, and get everything you actually asked for anyway.

Roy has ranks in Knowledge(Architecture), those two don't.

[brian 333]

Roy has ranks in Knowledge(Architecture), those two don't.

I feel like there should be a skill like Knowledge (Common Sense) to cover situations such as this.

[Verbatiam]

I wonder if this is true. Are there more words in English (or common) with odd letters or even letters?

Based on this data from google ngrams (https://norvig.com/ngrams/count_1w.txt) the weighted frequency of odd and even words is



Odd
Even


286534476886
301589743301



So "even" words are used more often. It may be that words that end a sentence have some pressure one way or the other, but without handy data for that it seems likely that Xykon made the payment harder to comply with.

[Shoelessgdowar]

One potential effect of this is that it creates a convenient way to write the quinton out of the story quickly and painlessly. Just have Xykon say the wrong thing. Also, most spellcasting is just naming the spell, not speaking in sentences. That limits Xykon’s power substantially, if the quinton wants to be a stickler for the rules. But what are that odds of that?

Probably Even Odds


"Energy Drain", "Meteor Swarm", "Fireball, Maximized", "Lightning Bolt, Empowered". I think he's good.

thank god "energy drain" is eleven letters.
If I was him, I would get in the habit of ending every sentence with ",bastard."
Make it an easier verbal tic to get accustomed to, you bastard.

If I were a being of pure law, I might point out that those aren’t sentences, but collections of words.
Something like Meld Into Stone could count, since that could be read as a command, but that’s not a sorcerer spell.
Being an insufferable pedant is sort of my schtick, so this comic is right up my alley.

Xykon: "I cast the disintegrate spell!!!"


Takeaway: Xykon doesn't know what the ritual does. But as long as he can kill RC, he feels in control.
Takeaway # 2: Xykon is ... really committed to his evil schtick. He wants to tell the multiverse "You're not my mom! You can't tell me what to do."

I always found "My Life (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zA1OtsvvC4)" by Billy Joel is what you should sing to your mom if you want to tell them they can't tell you what to do. I might be biased, cause I sang it to my own mother when I was like 4... I thought it was appropriate. Okay, to be fair, I was 4, and I thought it was about telling a parent that you were independent and could do things on your own, not about one person telling their lover that they might want to see other people and were unapologetic about cheating on them.


Hey, if "I-- I must succeed" counted as four words...

Don't get me started, no, seriously, I am one of the biggest opponents to that illogical interpretation... it was the right THREE Words to NO ONE at the WRONG time for a MIX OF REASONS BOTH GOOD AND BAD AND DEFINITELY NOT ALL THE WRONG ONES AS THERE WERE A TON OF WRONG REASONS THAT WEREN'T INVOLVED, not The right Four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons. Stuttering is not a second word, it is "I must succeed" or a superfluous I, as the extra I is non-relevant to "I must succeed" either way it was never four words, always three. V was not speaking to anyone, so there was no being, it was not even to V, it was to no one, so there could not be a right being. The time was wrong, every being involved except V was evil, their times are always wrong. Saving your family is not a wrong reason, defeating Xykon is not a wrong reason, saving the world is not a wrong reason, so not all of V's reasons were wrong. Flipside, while one or even some of V's reasons were wrong, there were plenty of other possible wrong reasons "Helping Xykon win" would be a wrong reason, "Killing Roy and Elan" would be a wrong reason, "Destroying the World" would be a wrong reason, "Slaughtering all children for fun and money" would be a wrong reason, but none of those was on V's list, so not All the Wrong Reasons were taken into account. So, neither "All the Wrong Reasons" was fulfilled, ergo, the prophecy, like all the Oracles Prophecies, is a hoax. Told you shouldn't have gotten me started (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvIJGjquHNU).

[The MunchKING]

Don't get me started, no, seriously, I am one of the biggest opponents to that illogical interpretation... it was the right THREE Words to NO ONE at the WRONG time for a MIX OF REASONS BOTH GOOD AND BAD AND DEFINITELY NOT ALL THE WRONG ONES AS THERE WERE A TON OF WRONG REASONS THAT WEREN'T INVOLVED, not The right Four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

The Oracle was always colloquial in his prophecies not mathematical logical statements.



Stuttering is not a second word, it is "I must succeed" or a superfluous I, as the extra I is non-relevant to "I must succeed" either way it was never four words, always three.

Repetition is not stuttering. You get a nice ellipses and new speech bubble (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) to indicate that it's two separate iterations, to reinforce her will.


V was not speaking to anyone, so there was no being, it was not even to V, it was to no one, so there could not be a right being.

V was speaking to herself to bolster her will to commit to the Evil Act in the face of an absurd counter contingency.



The time was wrong, every being involved except V was evil, their times are always wrong.

Wait, "their times are always wrong" so this time it's not wrong?


Saving your family is not a wrong reason, defeating Xykon is not a wrong reason, saving the world is not a wrong reason, so not all of V's reasons were wrong. Flipside, while one or even some of V's reasons were wrong, there were plenty of other possible wrong reasons "Helping Xykon win" would be a wrong reason, "Killing Roy and Elan" would be a wrong reason, "Destroying the World" would be a wrong reason, "Slaughtering all children for fun and money" would be a wrong reason, but none of those was on V's list, so not All the Wrong Reasons were taken into account.

Again, colloquial Common.


So, neither "All the Wrong Reasons" was fulfilled, ergo, the prophecy, like all the Oracles Prophecies, is a hoax.

They have literally all come true now except Elan's happy ending. And arguably that one too.

[Particle_Man]

I disagree - his job is to be part of the obstructive process. His bosses were ordering him to do his job, and by instructing her, he was doing the opposite of his job. Welcome to healthcare administration. It sucks.

On the other hand, when his boss was reaming him out over this he replied "but isn't it our job to help our customers?" and the boss replied stiffly "I am legally obligated to say yes." That implies that there are at least two sets of rules here, and Mr. Incredible was following the higher one (the one that his boss should have been bound by, but was trying to circumvent with the obstructive policies).

[The MunchKING]

"Energy Drain", "Meteor Swarm", "Fireball, Maximized", "Lightning Bolt, Empowered". I think he's good.

If I thought he was smarter/more situationally aware, I would think it was clever he did that on purpose.


But Im still confused as to why a being of pure order thinks this minor increase in order (by Xykon ending all sentences with a word with an odd number of letters) is a benefit, while helping Redcloak and Xykon achieve a goal that Xykon thinks will enable him to be truly chaotic and have god-defying levels of power.

Well he's contractually obligated to help, so that's a factor. Also just because Xykon thinks it will let him cause more Chaos doesn't mean it will. Redcloak told it that the unknown thing was to benefit his God's plans, and if they know the Dark One, they know he's a Law God.


Ah, I misread and thought it was the whole sentence. That would be far harder to manage as an author, seems disastrous.

Ah, me too. Guess I shouldn't be agreeing to any summoning contracts. :smallredface:


This is going to bite Xykon. He agreed to ending EVERY sentence with a word with an odd number of letters. But he did NOT specify it was for the duration of the task.

Those terms and conditions they skipped are going to come back to haunt him, aren't they?

If he reneges on the contract-payment after the task is complete, what's the Quinon going to do?


How could this be enforced? I could think of a few ways:

1. Magical compulsion - Xykon cannot stop talking until the terms are met. Can that brick spells? I'd think no, because of the "Maximized energy drain, dumbass!" option; sounds like spells can be contained within a sentence.
2. Auto-breach and termination of contract -- failure to properly finish a sentence means the quinton stops helping and gates away. Side effect -- really pissing off red, or perhaps they get stuck in an area that's not trivial to escape?
3. Some sort of inflicted penalty? Side effect -- annoying Xykon or possibly even somehow "harming" him to the point he goes aggro on the quinton. Obviously for plot reasons he'll "win" but that will mean some serious repurcussions for "fighting the gods".

I'm thinking it's 2, both because the Quinon wanted Xykon to THINK in an orderly manner, thus wasn't going to inflict it from without, and he doesn't really have the power to force anything on Xykon, thanks to Epic Spellcaster with 10th level slots.



I note that Xykon basically spells out that he intends to kill Redcloak once their effort is complete.

...of course, Redcloak expected that already and has other plans, but I wonder if Xykon is going to catch on to the fact that Redcloak is not overly concerned about being killed.

I mean, he's a Cleric. They tend to be chiller about the idea, because they have been directly serving their God/ess for their lives, and now they know they earned their place in their God/dess's chosen place for deserving people.



I noticed again that the roaches are telegraphing a demonic origin. Roaches as moles planted by IFCC crops up again - trying to recall their origins, was that in SoD?

A similar one to the one they have in Xykon's base. They wander into the coffee joint because there's food all over the place.


I doubt there's a cosmos wide and complete convention of units of measure.

If there were though, the beings of Law would know it, use it, and probably expect anyone willing to deal with them to be familiar with it.

[mikelibrarian]

I would have never predicted that the Quinton would act as the MC for an improv game.

[Algeh]

I appreciate how trivial this restriction would be for anyone willing to follow rules for their own sake, yet how much it would grate on someone who does not like to be told what to do.

Non-rude ways to consistently end a sentence using a word with odd number of letters without meaningfully losing information: bro, sis, buddy, "in bed"

Non-rude ways to consistently end a sentence using a word with even number of letters without meaningfully losing information: my dude, yeah, eh, "in accordance with prophecy"

Rude ways to consistently end a sentence using a word with odd number of letters without meaningfully losing information: "says your mom", dumbass, duh, so there

Rude ways to consistently end a sentence using a word with even number of letters without meaningfully losing information: butthead, jerkface, (assorted 4 letter words, possibly with -er or -head appended), "or else"

Anyone willing to follow rules, even passive-aggressively, could pick one or several of these and just chuck them at the end of each sentence without much thought and go about their day, but it would surface that "don't tell me what to do" impulse like a rock in a shoe each time...

[Fyraltari]

the lawful position sticks to the literal letter of the law, even when it would go against the intent of the parties (barring language to the contrary in the agreement). and "looking for loopholes" is just a pejorative way of referring to the finest parsing of the law, to the strictest enforcement of its small details. that is actually the highest form of respect for the law.

let us suppose a contract says a panda is in compliance if he "eats, shoots, and leaves". a strict lawful perspective would require him to use a firearm at mealtime even if the obvious intent of the contract (barring some erroneous punctuation, perhaps via autocorrect) was merely to specify what he should be eating.

The problem is that all communication rests on unstated context. It is not, in fact, possible to hold true to the letter of a contract and nothing else, because the letter alone is meaningless.

[Ruck]

Stuttering is not a second word, it is "I must succeed" or a superfluous I, as the extra I is non-relevant to "I must succeed" either way it was never four words, always three.

The "I" was said twice, even in two separate bubbles; therefore, two separate words.


V was not speaking to anyone, so there was no being, it was not even to V, it was to no one, so there could not be a right being.

V could be speaking to the IFCC or themselves in saying that. Just because they're not on panel doesn't mean they disappeared.


The time was wrong, every being involved except V was evil, their times are always wrong.

"The right time" was the right time "to achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power."


Saving your family is not a wrong reason, defeating Xykon is not a wrong reason, saving the world is not a wrong reason, so not all of V's reasons were wrong.

"All the wrong reasons" was for V's need to prove the superiority of magic, or their own superiority, or both. "I must succeed," emphasis on "I," is not "I must save my family" or "I must stop Xykon."

[Gurgeh]

For anyone arguing that the modron (or anyone Lawful, for that matter) is inherently inclined to monkey's paw things, remember that "you should have read the fine print (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)" is the literal defining concept for lawful evil in this setting. There isn't the faintest justification for extending it to lawful alignments in general.

[pearl jam]

For anyone arguing that the modron (or anyone Lawful, for that matter) is inherently inclined to monkey's paw things, remember that "you should have read the fine print (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)" is the literal defining concept for lawful evil in this setting. There isn't the faintest justification for extending it to lawful alignments in general.

There's a difference between sticking to the letter of an agreement, spelled out clearly and in good (or neutral? :smalltongue: )faith, in a way that the other party did not anticipate and hiding things in the "fine print" or "monkey's paw"-ing the agreement in ways that are intentionally deceitful and bad faith from the start. Many people objecting to the idea that some consequence may arise out of Redcloak's skipping over the terms or due to how he worded what he expects of the Modron seem to be conflating these situations.

[arimareiji]

For anyone arguing that the modron (or anyone Lawful, for that matter) is inherently inclined to monkey's paw things, remember that "you should have read the fine print (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html)" is the literal defining concept for lawful evil in this setting. There isn't the faintest justification for extending it to lawful alignments in general.

Indeed, but the same can be said wrt arguments that Lawful = inherently inclined to be helpful. The first inclination of a being whose core principle is Law will be "What do the rules say? (for good or ill)", though circumstances may skew things.

Law, for all that some think of it this way, is not inherently synonymous with Good.

The modron gave them every opportunity to examine the contract in as much detail as they like, and even sought their input on their desired goal and actions. Once that point was passed, if the rules say the modron should kill itself on their whim then I'm pretty sure it would do so. But if the rules say the modron stays out of party conflicts, it's going to stand by idly after Xykon gets mad and paralyzes Redcloak (until he gets nibbled to death by demon roaches and thus frees it from any further obligation).

[ATHATH]

I wonder if Zykon might get screwed later by not knowing the correct spelling of a word (e.g. "misspell"), resulting in him confidently ending a sentence in a word that actually has an even number of letters.

[Xodiac]

I have, from time to time, contemplated what "power" is. As in, when you say a person has a lot of power, what does it actually mean? It's not referring to how much electricity they contain, and it doesn't (usually) mean their physical strength. So what, then?

Power, in this context, means the ability to do what you want. Someone with power has a lot more leeway to do stuff. If you have power, you can build a skyscraper - or have it built, anyway. Or demand it be torn down. With power, you can get out of a parking ticket, which lets you park where you want; more power, and you can skate on greater crimes. If you have enough power, you can start wars, or demand others cater to your desires.

But power always comes with responsibilities. To have the power to start a war, you have to be high in your nations political heirarchy, and that requires you give in to other's wants and whims in order to keep that position. If you want to get that skyscraper built, you'll need to pay all those workers.

Xykon, however, wants all the ability to get whatever he wants. Right then. Instantly. And with absolutely none of the responsibility. No obligations. Do it or he'll kill you, and you can't do a damn thing about it. As a lich he isn't even obligated to eat or sleep. He doesn't need to worry about aging, either. It will be his way or the dead way, forever.

This is what he wants. THIS is ultimate power.

It's kind of frightening that it's actually possible to achieve, in his world.

[Trixie_One]

Mr. Incredible is the poster boy for "Good Lawful instead of Lawful Good".

Chaotic Good shurely. He constantly chafes under any kind of authority, bends the rules at his job to help the customers, and plays vigilante at once breaking laws and lying to his wife for good measure.

[Laurentio III]

Chaotic Good shurely. He constantly chafes under any kind of authority, bends the rules at his job to help the customers, and plays vigilante at once breaking laws and lying to his wife for good measure.
Let's compromise at Good Neutral, as it doesn't strike so much against law.
My point anyway it that he is Good before social consideration.

OOT: kudos to the demoniac cockroach for proposing "Exposure" as a payment. Trully the evilest in Team Evil.

[littlebum2002]

good isn't smugly corrupting the regulations you work under while continuing to collect a paycheck.

good would be quitting or working to make the regulations better.

So instead of staying at the job where you can secretly help people get what they deserve, you leave so that there is no one there to help them anymore. Sounds like a great idea.

[Laurentio III]

So instead of staying at the job where you can secretly help people get what they deserve, you leave so that there is no one there to help them anymore. Sounds like a great idea.
Well, he punched his boss throught a wall minutes later.
Kudos for the ambition, but badly realized.
At this point Mr. Bob Parr is more good as in "Good boy, dog!" that "Good job, hero!".

[ZhonLord]

OOT: kudos to the demoniac cockroach for proposing "Exposure" as a payment. Trully the evilest in Team Evil.

I mean, they ARE demonic cockroaches, so...

[Beni-Kujaku]

Don't get me started, no, seriously, I am one of the biggest opponents to that illogical interpretation... it was the right THREE Words to NO ONE at the WRONG time for a MIX OF REASONS BOTH GOOD AND BAD AND DEFINITELY NOT ALL THE WRONG ONES AS THERE WERE A TON OF WRONG REASONS THAT WEREN'T INVOLVED, not The right Four words to the right being at the right time for all the wrong reasons.

Eh, if you really don't want that interpretation, then just take "Disintegrate. Gust of wind." Four right words to end Kubota. Exactly the right time, as it was the end of an arc, the first moment V saw him, and before he could go tell everybody to prepare the trial of the century. The wrong reasons, since V killed Kubota just because Elan was holding him prisoner, without knowing anything of the situation, and finally the right person because has V not killed Kubota in front of Elan, he would not have lashed out towards V, and V would probably have not left the ship and found hirself on that island at the right time for VBD to threaten him and push him to reach ultimate arcane power. We have already seen that the prophecies of the oracle can have convoluted resolutions with several acceptable interpretations (see the argument between Belkar and the Oracle), so both interpretations can be acceptable. The "official" one is more direct, the roundabout one is more literal. Choose the one you prefer.

[arimareiji]

Eh, if you really don't want that interpretation, then just take "Disintegrate. Gust of wind." Four right words to end Kubota. Exactly the right time, as it was the end of an arc, the first moment V saw him, and before he could go tell everybody to prepare the trial of the century. The wrong reasons, since V killed Kubota just because Elan was holding him prisoner, without knowing anything of the situation, and finally the right person because has V not killed Kubota in front of Elan, he would not have lashed out towards V, and V would probably have not left the ship and found hirself on that island at the right time for VBD to threaten him and push him to reach ultimate arcane power. We have already seen that the prophecies of the oracle can have convoluted resolutions with several acceptable interpretations (see the argument between Belkar and the Oracle), so both interpretations can be acceptable. The "official" one is more direct, the roundabout one is more literal. Choose the one you prefer.

Thread win. Best retcon I can remember ever hearing for OotS. (^_~)b

[Khay]

Now this is a comic. Plot advancement, character insight, and humour all in one package.

For those of us who love technicalities and corner cases, remember that the summon is Lawful Neutral. Actively looking to exploit loopholes and screw people over is Lawful Evil. The deal will be broken if it gets the impression that Xykon isn't even trying to respect it, not necessarily from a single slip-up (especially if Xykon hastily attempts to correct it, as seen here.)

[Ionathus]

For Redcloak's sake, let's hope there isn't a cultural misunderstanding. The quinton estimated completion in 2 full rotations, which Redcloak interpreted as rotations of the planet, but the quinton may be referring to some clockwork mechanism in his plane and didn't listen to Redcloak's conversation with Xykon as a courtesy. I doubt there's a cosmos wide and complete convention of units of measure.

The quinton isn't a being of pure Law AND Evil - just pure Law. It has no reason to lie to or mislead its summoner. It doesn't care about twisting its words. It cares about increasing predictability, clear communication, and productivity, and setting up a "gotcha" down the line would work at cross purposes to that goal. It would communicate the terms of the agreement in language that Redcloak understands.

[Laurentio III]

The deal will be broken if it gets the impression that Xykon isn't even trying to respect it, not necessarily from a single slip-up (especially if Xykon hastily attempts to correct it, as seen here.)
Exactly. The reason of the deal is to make him try. The effort is key.
If Xykon just stay silent for two days, it would be akin to a cheat.

[The MunchKING]

Unfortunately, "letters" is 7 letters, so at some point I would have broken the even version of the contract by stating how many letters the thing I just said was. :smallsigh:



Which I guess was what the Quinon wanted. Xykon to THINK about what he was saying and not just randomly throw out his thoughts.




Exactly. The reason of the deal is to make him try. The effort is key.
If Xykon just stay silent for two days, it would be akin to a cheat.

But one that would no doubt dramatically increase the amount of Order in the Universe. Thus, goal achieved. :smallbiggrin:

[masamune1]

Chaotic Good shurely. He constantly chafes under any kind of authority, bends the rules at his job to help the customers, and plays vigilante at once breaking laws and lying to his wife for good measure.

That's more Good > Law.

He is still happy to work within a Lawful organisation (the government) as long as he feels his work is helpful and meaningful, and he is only bending the rules when he thinks the rules are unjust and harming people.

I'd probably tag him as Neutral Good since he doesn't seem to swing too hard one way or the other, but none of these by themselves would rule out Lawful Good (even if they aren't strictly Lawful either). Batman is often typed as Lawful Good (and everything else) despite being a vigilante who lies to cover his tracks, because he's ultimately trying to promote Law and Order in a city filled with crime, corruption and chaos.

If you're 70% Lawful and 30% Chaotic, you're Lawful. Being Lawful does not demand absolute perfect Law (case in point, Roy Greenhilt).

Plus, "Lawful" never means "obeying the law"- it means following rules and trying to be dutiful, orderly and consistent (in general) rather than obeying your own impulses or being whimsical. A LG character who shows up in a LE empire is not going to just obey the laws of the land if those laws are designed to hurt innocent people. They don't follow "ANY" law.

EDIT: Also, in the spirit of Lawfulness, it is spelt "surely".

[hamishspence]

Plus, "Lawful" never means "obeying the law"- it means following rules and trying to be dutiful, orderly and consistent (in general) rather than obeying your own impulses or being whimsical. A LG character who shows up in a LE empire is not going to just obey the laws of the land if those laws are designed to hurt innocent people. They don't follow "ANY" law.

Yup. As The Giant put it:


To think that Lawful always means "obeying the written law" is a gross misunderstanding of the D&D definition of the term.

For example, think of formal duels—the "pistols at dawn" kind. Such events are undoubtedly Lawful affairs—they have strict codes, elaborate rules, and concern themselves mostly with symbolic honor. All hallmarks of Lawful behavior when contrasted with, say, a drunken brawl. However, at the time Aaron Burr shot Hamilton, they were illegal in the United States. People who participated in such duels were abiding by a formal code of ethics and behavior that was in opposition to democratically passed law. Lawful behavior can be made illegal in a given jurisdiction, but that doesn't spontaneously change the nature of the act in a cosmological sense.

I've used this example before, but if a paladin walks into the orc's swamp to do battle, he is not suddenly bound to obey the Orc King's laws or lose his paladinhood. It is entirely possible to have a code that you believe supersedes the written law wherever you are and still be considered Lawful.

I've often said that a lot of confusion would have been avoided if they had simply called it Ordered instead of Lawful. "Ordered Good" leaves a lot less room for misinterpretation.

[Flibbert]

A bit late to the party I know but I think we should post according to the same rule... type... thing!

[Quizatzhaderac]

I feel like there should be a skill like Knowledge (Common Sense) to cover situations such as this.There is, but it's a cross class skill for every class but commoners.

Commoners also get a +49 billion bonus to spot the sun.

[Laurentio III]

Yup. As The Giant put it:
I've used this example before, but if a paladin walks into the orc's swamp to do battle, he is not suddenly bound to obey the Orc King's laws or lose his paladinhood. It is entirely possible to have a code that you believe supersedes the written law wherever you are and still be considered Lawful.
On the total polar opposite but still relevant, the one comic where The Joker is the Iranian Ambassador and is protected by international laws.

[Doug Lampert]

There is, but it's a cross class skill for every class but commoners.

Commoners also get a +49 billion bonus to spot the sun.

Sun to earth difference averages 149.6 million kilometers, for a spot penalty of over 49.08 billion, so a net penalty for a commoner of roughly 80 million. If you allow sizes larger than colossal (not in core rules, but reasonable) then the sun is colossal +25 sizes for a +116 bonus to spot, still nowhere close to good enough.

On the other hand, at perihelion (~3 January) the sun is only ~147.3 million km from the Earth, and then, a commoner CAN spot the sun as the distance penalty is only about 48.33 billion. So commoners can see the sun, but only in winter if in the northern hemisphere and in summer in the southern hemisphere.

[danielxcutter]

On the total polar opposite but still relevant, the one comic where The Joker is the Iranian Ambassador and is protected by international laws.

…I beg your pardon?

[Laurentio III]

…I beg your pardon?
It happened. Batman #429.

Now, that was a situation where "lawful" barely applies.
On one hand, a foreign ambassador in a democratic country is almost intouchable. International laws forbids to ever question him unless his government allows.
On the other hand, The Joker.
Now, if you are so much lawful to respect a convicted criminal, clinically insane, plurihomicidal and very fond of explosives and deadly gas because he's protected by the law, you are a failure at lawfulness.

Side note: Superman is apparently too much lawful for his own confort.

[Trixie_One]

EDIT: Also, in the spirit of Lawfulness, it is spelt "surely".

Not when it's an intentional misspelling to represent being overly and/or pointlessly pedantic popularized by a british comedic political print publication.

Yes, likely to be lost on most readers to this thread, but one I found hard to resist using anyway.

[danielxcutter]

It happened. Batman #429.

Now, that was a situation where "lawful" barely applies.
On one hand, a foreign ambassador in a democratic country is almost intouchable. International laws forbids to ever question him unless his government allows.
On the other hand, The Joker.
Now, if you are so much lawful to respect a convicted criminal, clinically insane, plurihomicidal and very fond of explosives and deadly gas because he's protected by the law, you are a failure at lawfulness.

Side note: Superman is apparently too much lawful for his own confort.

Well-written Superman is actually a bad example of this because he very very intentionally holds back for good reason.

[Doug Lampert]

It happened. Batman #429.

Now, that was a situation where "lawful" barely applies.
On one hand, a foreign ambassador in a democratic country is almost intouchable. International laws forbids to ever question him unless his government allows.
On the other hand, The Joker.
Now, if you are so much lawful to respect a convicted criminal, clinically insane, plurihomicidal and very fond of explosives and deadly gas because he's protected by the law, you are a failure at lawfulness.

Side note: Superman is apparently too much lawful for his own confort.

The lawful response to The Joker as Iranian ambassador (presumably to the UN as I don't think they have had a mission to the USA for a longish time) would be for the US government to expel the Iranian diplomatic missions from this country, give them 3 days to get out (and on a plane to Iran), and inform Iran that we will treat any actions by The Joker prior to his expulsion or to them waiving diplomatic immunity as official actions by the Iranian government and if they do not waive immunity prior to him even starting preparations for the inevitable murder spree then we will destroy their government and as much of the rest of their country as gets in the way.

On the other hand, in comics/movie universe, The Joker has never been accidently shot 157 times while in custody on the way to Arkham, so I would not expect that sort of sane and measured response from the government.

[masamune1]

The lawful response to The Joker as Iranian ambassador (presumably to the UN as I don't think they have had a mission to the USA for a longish time) would be for the US government to expel the Iranian diplomatic missions from this country, give them 3 days to get out (and on a plane to Iran), and inform Iran that we will treat any actions by The Joker prior to his expulsion or to them waiving diplomatic immunity as official actions by the Iranian government and if they do not waive immunity prior to him even starting preparations for the inevitable murder spree then we will destroy their government and as much of the rest of their country as gets in the way.

On the other hand, in comics/movie universe, The Joker has never been accidently shot 157 times while in custody on the way to Arkham, so I would not expect that sort of sane and measured response from the government.

Yeah. It was a silly story- it wasn't just that it was The Joker, it was set not long after Joker murdered Jason Todd as well. It was just to give Batman a reason to encounter the Joker without immediately throttling him.

I also think the UN (I think it was them, yes) would refuse to allow him into the building since he was a notorious whimsical terrorist and it would be completely in-character for him to try and bomb the building for the lolz as well (he does, in fact, try to gas everyone)- outside of his past crimes, he's an active security risk.

Dr Doom gets a bit more leeway with the "diplomatic immunity" thing since he's a) actually the sovereign ruler of a country, and b) it capable of going toe-to-toe with the United States and actually winning simply because he's Dr Doom...I only bring Doom up because I think that's the one that started the whole "diplomatic immunity works for supervillains" shtick in the first place that pops up in comics like this.

[Peelee]

On the other hand, when his boss was reaming him out over this he replied "but isn't it our job to help our customers?" and the boss replied stiffly "I am legally obligated to say yes." That implies that there are at least two sets of rules here, and Mr. Incredible was following the higher one (the one that his boss should have been bound by, but was trying to circumvent with the obstructive policies).

I'd say that implies the job is specifically to deny people but they can't openly say that and are legally required to say otherwise, despite what may actually be the case.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

[masamune1]

On the other hand, when his boss was reaming him out over this he replied "but isn't it our job to help our customers?" and the boss replied stiffly "I am legally obligated to say yes." That implies that there are at least two sets of rules here, and Mr. Incredible was following the higher one (the one that his boss should have been bound by, but was trying to circumvent with the obstructive policies).


I'd say that implies the job is specifically to deny people but they can't openly say that and are legally required to say otherwise, despite what may actually be the case.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

Actually, the exchange was:

Bob Parr / Mr Incredible: "Isn't it our job to help people?"

Boss: "We're supposed to protect OUR PEOPLE!"

(EDIT- My mistake, the boss says both things; my bad)

Also, Bob actually points out regulations and policy that says they SHOULD be helping the customers like he is doing, an his boss immediately shuts him down and says he doesn't want to hear it- with the tone being "if you told me those regulations I can't pretend that I don't know them".

Basically, Bob was doing his job to the letter, and his boss didn't like it, because his boss is more a Lawful Evil ******* (leaning Evil to be honest) and is more concerned with profit and kissing the asses of his bosses, as well as throwing his weight around (he clearly takes some sadistic delight in threatening to have Bob fired).

[H_H_F_F]

For those of us who love technicalities and corner cases, remember that the summon is Lawful Neutral. Actively looking to exploit loopholes and screw people over is Lawful Evil. The deal will be broken if it gets the impression that Xykon isn't even trying to respect it, not necessarily from a single slip-up (especially if Xykon hastily attempts to correct it, as seen here.)


Exactly. The reason of the deal is to make him try. The effort is key.
If Xykon just stay silent for two days, it would be akin to a cheat.

Hard disagree with both of these statements.

There's a huge difference between looking for loopholes and holding someone accountable for the deal. If I fail to hold up my side of a contract, even if I had the best intentions, refusing to hold up yours isn't Evil at all.

"Spells are sentences" could be seen as catching Xykon on an Evil technicality. Single slip-up because he got too mad isn't.

Believe it or not, a creature of pure order such as a 3.5 Modron cares about the letter of the law more than it does about some lich trying his gosh darn best. It would also not break its own contract because it's feeling salty about said lich twisting its word. That'd ve completely ludicrous.

Again, evil or not evil, this isn't some "dude who's generally lawful". This isn't Roy. It's a freaking Quinton. A manifestation of cosmological clockwork order. It's far closer to being an AI than to being a lawful person.

[Vikenlugaid]

Well, Xykon is smarter than he looks... But he is also far more stupid than he thinks.

[sihnfahl]

Well, Xykon is smarter than he looks... But he is also far more stupid than he thinks.
He's not dumb; he's just not all that wise.

Instant gratification and a short attention span is his bugbear.

[HalfTangible]

Actually, the exchange was:

Bob Parr / Mr Incredible: "Isn't it our job to help people?"

Boss: "We're supposed to protect OUR PEOPLE!"

Also, Bob actually points out regulations and policy that says they SHOULD be helping the customers like he is doing, an his boss immediately shuts him down and says he doesn't want to hear it- with the tone being "if you told me those regulations I can't pretend that I don't know them".

Basically, Bob was doing his job to the letter, and his boss didn't like it, because his boss is more a Lawful Evil ******* (leaning Evil to be honest) and is more concerned with profit and kissing the asses of his bosses, as well as throwing his weight around (he clearly takes some sadistic delight in threatening to have Bob fired).


I'd say that implies the job is specifically to deny people but they can't openly say that and are legally required to say otherwise, despite what may actually be the case.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.


On the other hand, when his boss was reaming him out over this he replied "but isn't it our job to help our customers?" and the boss replied stiffly "I am legally obligated to say yes." That implies that there are at least two sets of rules here, and Mr. Incredible was following the higher one (the one that his boss should have been bound by, but was trying to circumvent with the obstructive policies).

Bob is a very bad insurance agent. That's the entire point.

In his first scene with the boss, said boss yells at him for authorizing payment on "the walker policy". He then goes on to rant that Bob hands out checks to "every Harry Harbuckle and Sally Sobstory that gives [him] a phone call". The issue isn't that Bob is paying out because he wants to help people, it's that he pays out to everyone who comes his way, and an insurance company that pays out more than it takes in is going to collapse, leaving no one with anything. And when he does snap, almost kills his boss, and gets the government agent on him again, we learn that this has been a regular problem for Bob. The dude wants to help, but every time he does it causes "a month and a half of trouble" and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Bob is explicitly having trouble adjusting to civilian life and it's causing major problems for himself, his family and even his government because being a superhero has a very different set of rules to being an insurance agent. But insurance agent is the closest thing he can get to helping people out of disasters without making use of his powers. He can't, say, become a cop or a firefighter because it's almost impossible to hide that you're a super in a physically demanding and dangerous field like that. (Same reason Dash can't go out for sports)

[InvisibleBison]

Commoners also get a +49 billion bonus to spot the sun.

Commoners don't need a Spot bonus to be able to see the sun, because the sun isn't trying to hide from them.

[bunsen_h]

Ah, I misread and thought it was the whole sentence. That would be far harder to manage as an author, seems disastrous.

And after Haley's "a new substitution cipher every strip" aphasia, too!

For someone with even slight coding skills, those are both fairly trivial to handle. All you need is a simple program (it could be done with a spreadsheet) which the line of text is fed into. For the even/odd letter count problem, it would spit out "even" or "odd", or "good" or "bad", or the letter count, or some similar message to tell you if the text was appropriate. If necessary, change the text slightly, test, repeat until it works. For the cipher problem, it would generate the cipher and output the ciphered text. You might use the page number as the seed for the random generator, so you could go back later with new text for that page.


Thaaaaaanks, now I have filkworms of one of the world's most nauseatingly treacly/inane songs (Surfer Girl) (https://youtu.be/FpfZRO8WCQA?t=17) circling around in my head. (^_~)

See also: Tom Smith's "Smurfin' Safari" (https://tomsmith.bandcamp.com/track/smurfin-safari).


I noticed again that the roaches are telegraphing a demonic origin. Roaches as moles planted by IFCC crops up again - trying to recall their origins, was that in SoD?

Yes. "Demonic cockroaches. The place is crawling with them. In order to prepare authentic evil ethnic food, the kitchen here summons all of the seasonings from the Spice Rack of the Damned, in the Abyss. You know, Malevolent Basil, Thyme of Death, Cumin of 1000 Horrors, that kind of thing. Anyway, the rancid smell of the cooking attracts the roaches from the other side of the portal and then they get stuck here."


Someone, I think it was Roy, already outright told us that the caves could only be straight lines anyway in order to fit, and yet I don't think they are.

I don't recall any such comment in the comic. If most of the dungeons have long hallways between their doors and the dungeons proper, they could spread outward and downward from the cliff face, and have plenty of room for whatever configuration is necessary. Of course, the characters can see some things that we can't, and they may be able to see that there aren't hallways like that. On the other hand, members of the Order have only looked behind a couple of the doors, so they wouldn't be able to make much generalization.


Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

My wife's insurance company was quite effective at blocking her claims, after a surgical error nearly killed her several times over. She wasn't comatose enough, and for part of it, she was being given medication to ensure that she stayed comatose, and induced coma didn't meet their criteria. All of the time in intensive care units, all of the internal damage that she underwent, didn't quite meet their criteria. She would send a claim form with supporting documentation, and get a message back that they'd received the form but not the documentation. She'd send another copy of the documentation, only to be told that they hadn't ever received the form. Send the form again, and they claimed that they only had half the documentation even though it was all sent in one package. What ultimately got her the claim was the relatively incidental consequent stuff about being unable to manage some of the "activities of daily living" such as bathing without assistance.


In his first scene with the boss, said boss yells at him for authorizing payment on "the walker policy". He then goes on to rant that Bob hands out checks to "every Harry Harbuckle and Sally Sobstory that gives [him] a phone call". The issue isn't that Bob is paying out because he wants to help people, it's that he pays out to everyone who comes his way, and an insurance company that pays out more than it takes in is going to collapse, leaving no one with anything.

The boss's complaint that Bob pays out to everyone who gives him a phone call is coming from a very biased source. I don't consider it at all reliable. The one example that we see in detail, the little old lady, clearly is entitled to her claim according to the rules that Bob tells her how to follow.

[cheezewizz2000]

If I was Xyzon, I'd just finish every sentence with "or something" and be done with it. Just put up with sounding like a stereotype for a bit.

[masamune1]

Bob is a very bad insurance agent. That's the entire point.

In his first scene with the boss, said boss yells at him for authorizing payment on "the walker policy". He then goes on to rant that Bob hands out checks to "every Harry Harbuckle and Sally Sobstory that gives [him] a phone call". The issue isn't that Bob is paying out because he wants to help people, it's that he pays out to everyone who comes his way, and an insurance company that pays out more than it takes in is going to collapse, leaving no one with anything. And when he does snap, almost kills his boss, and gets the government agent on him again, we learn that this has been a regular problem for Bob. The dude wants to help, but every time he does it causes "a month and a half of trouble" and hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Bob is explicitly having trouble adjusting to civilian life and it's causing major problems for himself, his family and even his government because being a superhero has a very different set of rules to being an insurance agent. But insurance agent is the closest thing he can get to helping people out of disasters without making use of his powers. He can't, say, become a cop or a firefighter because it's almost impossible to hide that you're a super in a physically demanding and dangerous field like that. (Same reason Dash can't go out for sports)

I agree that Bob isn't suited to the job of insurance agent and has trouble adjusting to civilian life in general...however, I don't regard the boss as a particularly trustworthy or unbiased authority either. The boss is a weasel who doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself and his shareholders and superiors, is verbally and physically abusive to his employee (grabbing Bob's face), and refuses to let Bob defend himself or point out that he's still following the rules.

(I was also half-wrong- the boss DOES say "the law requires that I answer no", albeit a little earlier in the conversation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC_97F2Zn9k

I definitely don't think the moral of the story is "Bob is a very bad insurance agent" or "Bob's actions would eventually cause the insurance company to collapse somewhere down the line", certainly not in a friggin' Pixar movie. The problem is that he violently overreacted, not that he was in the wrong up to that point or that his boss wasn't genuinely a pr*ck.

EDIT- If you look VERY closely at the memo the boss has on his desk, it says the company is making record profits...and also says they're going to be charging their employees by the hour for parking, that they'll have to pay for their own office supplies, and that their office phone and electricity costs will now be deducted from their paycheques. So yeah, the boss is just a penny-pinching jerk who is looking for any excuse to cut costs and make money even when things are going well.

[Arbaj]

This... tragedy, makes me so giddy. Thank you Rich... Xykon is so injured by this. I love it...

Maybe it will come to pass that a test of purity of self needs to happen later in the dungeon in order to pass a gate and this "deal" he made will be considered a violation of his principles and nuke or weaken him :D D: :D :D

[arimareiji]

I'd say that implies the job is specifically to deny people but they can't openly say that and are legally required to say otherwise, despite what may actually be the case.

Having dealt with health insurance companies as my job for the last decade or so, I attest their job is to be a roadblock to any claims.

Demur, deflect, delay, derail, deny, defend until demise.

[Doug Lampert]

Commoners don't need a Spot bonus to be able to see the sun, because the sun isn't trying to hide from them.

Irrelevant, you also explicitly use spot (including the distance penalties) to see distant things that are not hiding.

[Nomen]

This... tragedy, makes me so giddy. Thank you Rich... Xykon is so injured by this. I love it...

Maybe it will come to pass that a test of purity of self needs to happen later in the dungeon in order to pass a gate and this "deal" he made will be considered a violation of his principles and nuke or weaken him :D D: :D :D

Is some arbitrary test trying to tell me I'm not allowed to make deals, how dare it I'm going to go make a deal right now.

[InvisibleBison]

Irrelevant, you also explicitly use spot (including the distance penalties) to see distant things that are not hiding.

No, you don't. The rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm) are quite clear about when you make a Spot check:


To detect creatures who are are hiding.
To detect creatures who are not hiding but are still difficult to see.
To become aware of a nearby invisible creature.
To detect someone in disguise.
To read lips.
To determine the distance at which an encounter can begin.

Someone trying to look at the sun doesn't fall into any of these categories.

[HalfTangible]

The boss's complaint that Bob pays out to everyone who gives him a phone call is coming from a very biased source. I don't consider it at all reliable. The one example that we see in detail, the little old lady, clearly is entitled to her claim according to the rules that Bob tells her how to follow.

The first thing Bob says in that scene is that he can't pay her because their liabilities are spelled out in paragraph 17.


I agree that Bob isn't suited to the job of insurance agent and has trouble adjusting to civilian life in general...however, I don't regard the boss as a particularly trustworthy or unbiased authority either. The boss is a weasel who doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself and his shareholders and superiors, is verbally and physically abusive to his employee (grabbing Bob's face), and refuses to let Bob defend himself or point out that he's still following the rules.

(I was also half-wrong- the boss DOES say "the law requires that I answer no", albeit a little earlier in the conversation)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC_97F2Zn9k

I definitely don't think the moral of the story is "Bob is a very bad insurance agent" or "Bob's actions would eventually cause the insurance company to collapse somewhere down the line", certainly not in a friggin' Pixar movie. The problem is that he violently overreacted, not that he was in the wrong up to that point or that his boss wasn't genuinely a pr*ck.

I'm not saying that the Boss isn't a prick, because he absolutely is.

Just that the point of the scenes isn't "insurance company bad", but "Bob is bad at this job he also hates, in part because he's a poor fit for it". And more importantly, "Bob isn't adjusting to civilian life"

And the government agent doesn't *just* say that Bob ****ed up but that this has happened multiple times before.


EDIT- If you look VERY closely at the memo the boss has on his desk, it says the company is making record profits...and also says they're going to be charging their employees by the hour for parking, that they'll have to pay for their own office supplies, and that their office phone and electricity costs will now be deducted from their paycheques. So yeah, the boss is just a penny-pinching jerk who is looking for any excuse to cut costs and make money even when things are going well.

Does it? I thought it outlined the speech that the boss was about to give, hence Bob already knowing what he was about to say.

[Peelee]

Demur, deflect, delay, derail, deny, defend until demise.

Our lawyer just kept it short. "Deny, delay, defend". Only need to keep it up for a little over a year until they're off the hook.

[arimareiji]

Our lawyer just kept it short. "Deny, delay, defend". Only need to keep it up for a little over a year until they're off the hook.

Considering the long-term results, I submit that health insurance strategists deserve their own alignment category.

[Laurentio III]

Does it? I thought it outlined the speech that the boss was about to give, hence Bob already knowing what he was about to say.
Since the first time I've seen the movie, I'm under the impression that Bob is playing dumb. He seems depressed and submissive, but all his question are armor-piercing and he puts the boss as much on the defensive as himself.
Plus, the moment he witnesses a crime, his voice and posture immediately change.
I think that it was him "Clark Kenting" or, specifically for him, feigning to be a common person as he sees them.

That would make him a little on the side of a gold-hearted jerk.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Now, if you are so much lawful to respect a convicted criminal, clinically insane,....So there's actually no such thing as "clinically insane", a person's sanity is a legal question, not a medical one. Also a person can't be both convicted of a crime and found to have been insane when they committed it, either they sanely committed the crime, or they didn't have the ability to make a real choice.

There's a theory that basically nobody that batman captures can actually be criminally prosecuted as essentially nothing batman touches can be used in court as evidence. In which case, the occupants of Arkham asylum are all actually in good legal standing, committed based on their eccentricity, rather than specific crimes.

[LookieLouE1707]

For anyone arguing that the modron (or anyone Lawful, for that matter) is inherently inclined to monkey's paw things, remember that "you should have read the fine print" is the literal defining concept for lawful evil in this setting. There isn't the faintest justification for extending it to lawful alignments in general.


where does that comic say that? (apparently i can't repost the link to it). it says that certain ideas have special power, and identifies "yes, but if you read the fine print" as not being one of those ideas - that idea is merely flotsam in the astral plane. it is not assigned to any particular alignment.

[Laurentio III]

where does that comic say that? (apparently i can't repost the link to it). it says that certain ideas have special power, and identifies "yes, but if you read the fine print" as not being one of those ideas - that idea is merely flotsam in the astral plane. it is not assigned to any particular alignment.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html
Second page, forth panel, lower-left corner. It's the LE corner.

[LookieLouE1707]

Second page, forth panel, lower-left corner. It's the LE corner.

you're talking about the big red meatball that says "yes, but if you read the fine print"? again, that may seem like a LE idea to you, but it's just flotsam (that's the point of the comic). it is the equivalent of "who's a good dog? you are!" (which has its own meatball).

[Devils_Advocate]

The alignment system has gone through a lot of changes over the editions. (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8417.0) In particular, AD&D Lawful alignment is more authoritarian politics, with Good covering ethics in general, while in 3E Lawful alignment is more honorable or deontological, while Good is kind or benevolent. So honesty is covered by Good in AD&D but by Law in 3E.

So in AD&D a Lawful Evil villain can be a lyin' cheatin' so-and-so in pursuit of their iron-fisted rule, totally breaking their word so long as no one is in a position to hold them accountable. "I am altering the deal. Pray that I do not alter it further." Whereas in 3E, an unwillingness to use dishonorable means, even when it's entirely possible to get away with it, is what distinguishes Lawful from non-Lawful characters!

Not that every 3rd Edition writer got the memo, but that's how Lawful alignment itself is described.

Anydingdangway! In my opinion: Following the most literal interpretation of a contract is more Lawful than not doing so, but following the parties' intent is also more Lawful than not doing that. So, really, the most purely Lawful option is for the contract to match the intent perfectly! After all, the purpose of the contract is to capture that intent, right? Clearly it's more Lawful for something to fulfill its purpose than not, right? At least, in the general case?

And that's the case in both the old and the new senses of "Lawful"! It's more clearly specified and predictable, i.e. "ordered" or "orderly", and it's also more forthright, honest, and "honorable".


Someone, I think it was Roy, already outright told us that the caves could only be straight lines anyway in order to fit
Strip 1203 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1203.html)


Probably Even Odds
I see what you did there.


I always found "My Life (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zA1OtsvvC4)" by Billy Joel is what you should sing to your mom if you want to tell them they can't tell you what to do. I might be biased, cause I sang it to my own mother when I was like 4... I thought it was appropriate. Okay, to be fair, I was 4, and I thought it was about telling a parent that you were independent and could do things on your own, not about one person telling their lover that they might want to see other people and were unapologetic about cheating on them.
.... Um, woah. Not sure I appreciate the added context. (http://nonadventures.com/2010/06/05/double-yogi/)


Told you shouldn't have gotten me started (http://&quot;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvIJGjquHNU).
Broken link.


I mean, he's a Cleric. They tend to be chiller about the idea, because they have been directly serving their God/ess for their lives, and now they know they earned their place in their God/dess's chosen place for deserving people.
Yeah, but Xykon killing Redcloak to grab all the power for himself would (seemingly, based on what Xykon thinks) clearly undermine The Plan. And in addition to Redcloack being invested in that as an end in itself, the Dark One would likely be none too pleased by Redcloak screwing everything up by getting killed at the last minute. Evil gods generally aren't so huge on the whole "Well, at least you tried" thing.

[Adaon Nightwind]

you're talking about the big red meatball that says "yes, but if you read the fine print"? again, that may seem like a LE idea to you, but it's just flotsam (that's the point of the comic). it is the equivalent of "who's a good dog? you are!" (which has its own meatball).

But the comic (in the form of Thor) specifically states that these Ideas became powerfull enough to sustain their own plane of existence. In Contrast to other ideas, which are flotsam (or in the words of Thor, they matter, but they do not MATTER).

In other words: There is a difference, which Thor (the Comic) states quite clearly.


Regarding the Comic: This is great :smallbiggrin:

I do not think The Giant would be that straightforward, but in a usual RPG-Campaign (which also means longer breaks between Sessions, where the players forget stuff about the game world in which only minutes or hours have passed) it would be fun to set the players up by using the force fields of the Quinton to bypass monsters.. only to have Xykon mess it up, the Quinton leaving, the forcefields behind them disappearing and trapping them between two hordes of monsters. :smallcool:

[Laurentio III]

you're talking about the big red meatball that says "yes, but if you read the fine print"? again, that may seem like a LE idea to you, but it's just flotsam (that's the point of the comic). it is the equivalent of "who's a good dog? you are!" (which has its own meatball).
Err... no.
Read them and note: they are all alignments in an ordinate fashion.
Not my opinion, it has been discussed already.

Higher left to right: LG, NG, CG (and lesser variation of more or less good)
Center left to right: LN, NN, CN
Lower left to right: LE, NE, CE (and again, lesser variation).

All "meatball" is an afterlife destination, if I remember correctly.

EDIT: FOUND


Quick Guide to the Outer Planes

Elysium - True Good - "Everyone should Care" - Basically the classical greek fields of Elysium, a place so idealic it can actually entrap you there and make you forget you ever had a reason to leave.
The Beastlands - Good but a little Chaotic - "Who's a good dog, you are!" - Good animals are good!
Arboria - Chaotic Good - "Words aren't as important as people" - Sylvan afterlife of elves.
Ysgard - Chaotic but a little good - "Fight the good fight!" - Valhala and valkyries!
Limbo - True Chaos - "Don't you tell me what to do!" - Swirling essence of chaos, a roiling maelstrom of all elements and concepts
Pandemonium - Chaotic but a little evil - "LULZ" - Deep cavernous realm filled with screaching deafening winds that drive everyone insane.
The Abyss- Chatoic Evil - "Screw you jack, I got mine." - An Infinity of demons, going down uncounted layers (though some claim 666), each worse then the last in theory.
Carcerei - Evil but a little Chaotic - "You're bad and you should feel bad." - A prison plane
Hades - True Evil - "Nothing Matters" - Infinite bleakness, where you slowly loose the will to care about anything (including leaving) until you fade away to nothing but dust.
Gehena - Evil but a little lawful - "Resistance is futile" - Giant volcanos floating in space controled by Yugoloth Generals and warlords
Baator (the 9 hells) - Lawful Evil - "Yes, but if you read the fine print..." - Where you sell your soul to when you make faustian bargains.
Archeron - Lawful but a little evil - "I was just following orders..." - An eternal battlefield where armies clash forever on giant floating cubes.
Mechanus - True Lawful - "There's only one right path" - Huge mechanical plane made out of interlocking gears, many colonized by ant-like formians.
Arcadia - Lawful but a little good - "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few." - Paladin afterlife, with an ultra-strict home owners association.
Celestia - Lawful Good - "Truth, justice, and the celestial way." - The conventional heavenly plane, in the form of a giant mountain you climb as you become purer.
Bytopia - Good but a little lawful - "Let's all do our part" - Gnomish afterlife, consisting of two planes one hanging over the other, with a communal spirit.
Outlands - True Nuetral - "Hey, lets not get carried away..." It connects and bleeds into all the other in a circle around it, with a 'portal town' at every junction. At it's center is a giant pillar that nulifies all magic as you approach, and gods and dieties are unable to approach. Floating in a ring on that pillar is the major planar city of Sigil, ruled by the Lady of pain.

Edit - added a d&D description of the planes, and added outlands which I totally spaced on.

[Doug Lampert]

you're talking about the big red meatball that says "yes, but if you read the fine print"? again, that may seem like a LE idea to you, but it's just flotsam (that's the point of the comic). it is the equivalent of "who's a good dog? you are!" (which has its own meatball).

No, those are the 17 outer planes associated with alignments and afterlives in the standard D&D cosmology. The circles are the gates to the alignment outer planes from the astral. Thor is SAYING, "The Outer Planes are ideas that were so powerful, for better or worse, that they became places." In the panel with all those slogans, he goes on to mention that souls are drawn to them. There is nothing about flotsam in that panel, it's discussing the outer planes, and the blobs and their organization and IIRC quite a few of the colors and slogans match with the standard cosmology.

[Particle_Man]

And the CN one being "nobody tells me what to do" seems to be what Xykon is channelling in reaction to the LN Modron's linguistic requirement.

Not that Xykon is not also evil, of course. It just makes sense that this particular moment would bring out the chaotic part of him.


No, you don't. The rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm) are quite clear about when you make a Spot check:


To detect creatures who are are hiding.
To detect creatures who are not hiding but are still difficult to see.
To become aware of a nearby invisible creature.
To detect someone in disguise.
To read lips.
To determine the distance at which an encounter can begin.

Someone trying to look at the sun doesn't fall into any of these categories.

So in a setting where the sun is actually a ridiculously big Fire Elemental that might conceivably enter a combat with you . . .

[Gnome Alone]

What am I missing here with Xykon's last sentence? - wasn't he fine with "thing!" That's five letters. Why would he then continue with "Damn it!" like he'd screwed it up?

[Coppercloud]

What am I missing here with Xykon's last sentence? - wasn't he fine with "thing!" That's five letters. Why would he then continue with "Damn it!" like he'd screwed it up?
He swears because he just found out how annoying this constraint will be, or he swears because he's relieved to have succeeded.


A bit late to the party I know but I think we should post according to the same rule... type... thing!
I wholeheartedly agree! In fact (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?649238-OOTS-1266-The-Discussion-Thread&p=25565563#post25565563), I already started (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?649238-OOTS-1266-The-Discussion-Thread/page4&p=25565988#post25565988)! Even elsewhere in the forum (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?647769-Order-of-the-Stick-Trivia-XXIII-50-More-Entertaining-than-Speculating-About-MitD!/page11&p=25566007#post25566007).

[masamune1]

So there's actually no such thing as "clinically insane", a person's sanity is a legal question, not a medical one. Also a person can't be both convicted of a crime and found to have been insane when they committed it, either they sanely committed the crime, or they didn't have the ability to make a real choice.

There's a theory that basically nobody that batman captures can actually be criminally prosecuted as essentially nothing batman touches can be used in court as evidence. In which case, the occupants of Arkham asylum are all actually in good legal standing, committed based on their eccentricity, rather than specific crimes.

That theory is wrong. So, so, SO many villains that Batman captured committed their crimes in a VERY public manner, so Batman capturing them wouldn't matter (especially since he isn't a police officer), plus more often than not they are escapees from the asylum or prison so they would be fugitives from justice regardless; there would also be times where the police and Batman are on the scene around the same time so it is the police who make the actual arrest (or the police are called in because of a big hero / villain fight going on), plus the times where Batman is considered a felon the police need to capture so they would just say "well, we captured the Joker, but Batman got away".

The only criminals who could avoid prosecution would be smarter ones like the Penguin who are gangsters that are careful not to get their hands dirty, or who can make witnesses "disappear"- the rest however are more like terrorists who often use WMDs against the entire city, so the unrealistic thing is that they are only held in Gotham rather than a Federal SuperMAX (especially since they sometimes commit crimes in Metropolis or elsewhere).

On the matter of insanity though, it IS true that most of Batman's rogues would never be found criminally insane, since they are fully aware of their crimes and openly brag about them, and many demonstrate methodical planning as well. The only explanation is that Gotham has a very, VERY lax definition of "criminally insane".

[masamune1]

The first thing Bob says in that scene is that he can't pay her because their liabilities are spelled out in paragraph 17.

He then tells her exactly how they CAN pay her, after checking to make sure the coast is clear. The most likely explanation is that he's got in trouble for this sort of thing before (which he has) and had resigned himself to just accepting the crappy reality he is in, but his sympathy won out regardless. Basically, he wasn't being entirely truthful when he said they couldn't pay her.


I'm not saying that the Boss isn't a prick, because he absolutely is.

Just that the point of the scenes isn't "insurance company bad", but "Bob is bad at this job he also hates, in part because he's a poor fit for it". And more importantly, "Bob isn't adjusting to civilian life"

And the government agent doesn't *just* say that Bob ****ed up but that this has happened multiple times before.

The government said Bob has messed up before; it's not entirely clear if he messed up in this specific manner or for this specific reason.

And the point of the film is that the world is a poorer place for not having heroes in it, and that Bob's problem is not just that he's not adjusting but that he's not allowed to be himself nor to help people, with the insurance company being a prime example. He would definitely have been happier at his job if his boss allowed or even encouraged him to help his clients as much as he was doing, even if he still missed being a superhero.



Does it? I thought it outlined the speech that the boss was about to give, hence Bob already knowing what he was about to say.

https://i.redd.it/cxga1rly64701.png


Memo: Policy Notifications

To: Employee
From: Gilbert Hugh

Due to financial cut-backs, you will now be expected to self-
expense all office supplies, including but not limited to:
pencils, erasers, pens, paper, stationary, folders, staples,
paper clips, brads and photocopies. All parking will now be
metered by the hour. Electricity consumption and all tele-
phone charges will be deducted from your paycheck.

The Board of Directors at Insecuricare wishes to thank you for
your selfless sacrifice through this time of financial un-
certainty. It is because of you, the employee, that Insuricare
has recorded its highest profit in years. Remember, a successful
company makes for successful [illegible] penny you
save is another penny that goes in o [illegible]

Salutations,

[Fyraltari]

The only explanation is that Gotham has a very, VERY lax definition of "criminally insane".

The Great White Shark's backstory had him pleading insanity when charged with a white-collar crime (embezzelment, insurance fraud lr a ponzi scheme, I don't quote remember).

Doing so in the state wherein Arkham Asylum is located turned out to have been a mistake.

[Elenna]

Goddamit, I keep feeling the need to count letters now. (odd)

That does not stop this comic from being amazing, though (even).

[arimareiji]

I'm guessing my OCD tendencies are better-controlled than normal, because I've felt almost no compulsion to start counting despite all the urging. XD

[masamune1]

The Great White Shark's backstory had him pleading insanity when charged with a white-collar crime (embezzelment, insurance fraud lr a ponzi scheme, I don't quote remember).

Doing so in the state wherein Arkham Asylum is located turned out to have been a mistake.

Yeah. The judged laughed at the stupidity of him thinking he'd beaten the system. He ends up crazier than before he went in.

That same story features Humpty Dumpty, one of the very, very few rogues who actually belongs in there since he kills people in a delusional but utterly sincere attempt to "fix" them.

[Fish]

This could get bad for Xykon. I invite you to count the letters in the words yes and no.

[aabicus]

I wonder if this is true. Are there more words in English (or common) with odd letters or even letters?

Its definitely easier to do even than odd, but not because of percentage of even-numbered words. Its because two- or four-lettered words are the easiest to quickly think of. Most sentences can be (clunkily) adapted on the fly to end in two-letter verbs like "be" or "do" or "is", and four-letter words are a very easy length to quickly calculate in your head. In contrast, i can't think of any mental advantages to quickly composing three letter words in careful conversation, and 1-letter words (I and A) do not easily end sentences.

(This of course doesn't count the loophole of ending every sentence with the same catchphrase, which makes either variant equally easy. I just mean aside from that loophole, even-numbered words are far easier than odd in this challenge)

Try both versions for yourself; carry on a one-sided conversation for five minutes where you attempt to convey information (say, the plot of your favorite TV show) and try it with even and odd requirements. There are so many more mental shorthands for boiling down sentences to end with 2 or 4 letter words than 3 or 5.

[Nomen]

This could get bad for Xykon. I invite you to count the letters in the words yes and no.

I won't do that thing. No way!

[a_flemish_guy]

The Great White Shark's backstory had him pleading insanity when charged with a white-collar crime (embezzelment, insurance fraud lr a ponzi scheme, I don't quote remember).

Doing so in the state wherein Arkham Asylum is located turned out to have been a mistake.

wow, this guy really wants to get send to arkham? you must be really be insane if you want that

also about the small letters, LN has the small letters as well but in LE they're written in such a way to screw over the other party while LN simply has them because you need those, how can you agree to any condition if it's not defined what that condition is?
edit: I have an even better example: LE expects that you don't understand what's in the small letters, LN expects that you do

[bunsen_h]

In contrast, i can't think of any mental advantages to quickly composing three letter words in careful conversation, and 1-letter words (I and A) do not easily end sentences.

Neither can I.

[brian 333]

There is, but it's a cross class skill for every class but commoners.

Commoners also get a +49 billion bonus to spot the sun.

Commoners don't need a bonus to Spot the sun because the sun has a size penalty, an illumination penalty, and a heat penalty that can only be offset by massive clouds of water vapor or aerosolized particulates such as dust, smoke, or volcanic ash.

[Firest Kathon]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this idea was already posted.

Reading about the different alignment made me realize that Xykon and Redcloak have worked well together so far because they were both following evil objectives, hence no conflict of alignment. I think this is the first time that the law/order axis comes up in their relationship, and already we see a quite significant conflict over a fairly unimportant matter. Maybe this is a foreshadowing how their cooperation is going to break up in the end: because of a conflict about the law/order axis, which would happen before the obvious break-up of Redcloak revealing that he had a secret agenda the whole time and/or backstabbing Xykon.

[Particle_Man]

wow, this guy really wants to get send to arkham? you must be really be insane if you want that

I dunno, which is easier to escape from, Arkham or Jail?

Anyhow I also wonder if the split on Team Evil will be something like:

Quinton is about to reveal critical info.

Xykon "About time!"

Quinton goes poof.

Redcloak loses his temper and vents at Xykon for screwing up.

Things escalate on both sides.

Xykon kills Redcloak in a fit of rage and raises him as a zombie.

On the other hand, that doesn't solve the quintessence issue.

[Aquillion]

Commoners don't need a bonus to Spot the sun because the sun has a size penalty, an illumination penalty, and a heat penalty that can only be offset by massive clouds of water vapor or aerosolized particulates such as dust, smoke, or volcanic ash.
No, the distance alone (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?102044-3-0-3-5-It-s-impossible-to-see-the-sun) makes it impossible to see the sun in D&D, despite its size. The distance penalty on the Commoner's spot check is orders of magnitude more significant than any impacts from size.

Of course, the D&D sun may be much closer than our real-world one, but in that case it is also probably smaller.

[InvisibleBison]

No, the distance alone (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?102044-3-0-3-5-It-s-impossible-to-see-the-sun) makes it impossible to see the sun in D&D, despite its size. The distance penalty on the Commoner's spot check is orders of magnitude more significant than any impacts from size.

Of course, the D&D sun may be much closer than our real-world one, but in that case it is also probably smaller.

As I explained before (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=25567129&postcount=205), that's not how Spot works.

[brian 333]

No, the distance alone (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?102044-3-0-3-5-It-s-impossible-to-see-the-sun) makes it impossible to see the sun in D&D, despite its size. The distance penalty on the Commoner's spot check is orders of magnitude more significant than any impacts from size.

Of course, the D&D sun may be much closer than our real-world one, but in that case it is also probably smaller.

Or it's cumulative hide penalties exceed it's distance bonus. We're talking about something that out-masses everything else in the solar system by 99 times. It is big. It is also very bright and very hot. In almost every case, the only way it can remain concealed is when the observer's PoV is directly obscured by the world that observer stands on.

Distance bonuses are not enough to prevent the sun from causing first and even second degree burns on skin. The radiance bonuses counter them and exceed them by a large factor. It's not a racial or class feature, it is a property of the sun.

[Aquillion]

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this idea was already posted.

Reading about the different alignment made me realize that Xykon and Redcloak have worked well together so far because they were both following evil objectives, hence no conflict of alignment. I think this is the first time that the law/order axis comes up in their relationship, and already we see a quite significant conflict over a fairly unimportant matter. Maybe this is a foreshadowing how their cooperation is going to break up in the end: because of a conflict about the law/order axis, which would happen before the obvious break-up of Redcloak revealing that he had a secret agenda the whole time and/or backstabbing Xykon.
I feel like it's unlikely to be the entire ultimate resolution to either of their stories because it's tangential to the heroes. "Xykon and Redcloak self-destruct due to their inherent problems" is a bit out of left field.

It could play a role (especially contrasted with the way the heroes have built their relationships and worked through their problems) but I don't think it's going to be as central as you're describing here.

[Peelee]

So there's actually no such thing as "clinically insane", a person's sanity is a legal question, not a medical one. Also a person can't be both convicted of a crime and found to have been insane when they committed it, either they sanely committed the crime, or they didn't have the ability to make a real choice.
And the law requires medical experts to make the medical case that the medical state of the person fits the legal definition. In the remarkably few jurisdictions that allow insanity as a defense.

There's a theory that basically nobody that batman captures can actually be criminally prosecuted as essentially nothing batman touches can be used in court as evidence. In which case, the occupants of Arkham asylum are all actually in good legal standing, committed based on their eccentricity, rather than specific crimes.
And that theory would be bunk. Eyewitnesses to a huge amount of their crimes are in no short supply in most stories, and Batman doesn't get all the evidence. They are plenty able to be criminally prosecuted. They just have excellent civil cases against the Bat.

[mjasghar]

It’s strange that Gotham has so many billionaires like Bruce Wayne and yet it seems their police and more importantly their social services are incredibly underfunded leading to that massive crime rate.
We see a lot of charity dinners etc in the comics as well - where does all the money go? Is Batman fiddling his taxes? Or is this just another DC issue?
Edit : I guess some writers realised that and so they invented a 40,000 year old warlock being buried there (and because it’s DC saying the entire continent was uninhabited) and creating a permanent aura of evil. Like you do.
Edit 2 : on further research it seems that ras al ghul also planted some corruption pits under the city to make it that way.

[danielxcutter]

It’s strange that Gotham has so many billionaires like Bruce Wayne and yet it seems their police and more importantly their social services are incredibly underfunded leading to that massive crime rate.
We see a lot of charity dinners etc in the comics as well - where does all the money go? Is Batman fiddling his taxes? Or is this just another DC and their own notorious sociopolitical viewpoint?
Edit : I guess some writers realised that and so they invented a 40,000 year old warlock being buried there (and because it’s DC saying the entire continent was uninhabited) and creating a permanent aura of evil. Like you do.
Edit 2 : on further research it seems that ras al ghul also planted some corruption pits under the city to make it that way. Maybe they needed a villain that fitted the DC politics I guess

Isn't Bruce one of the very, very few ones who actually give a crap about people? I also recall that he does help via the Bruce Wayne persona as well as the Batman persona(I'm probably misusing terms here but that's not the point) with things such as charity, yes.

Edit: Also, regarding the Incredibles thing - what made Bob snap wasn't his boss chewing him out about his work, but because someone was outright being mugged outside the window and the boss more or less laughed it off IIRC. That was the point when Bob grabbed him by the neck and threw him so hard he smashed through multiple walls.

[mjasghar]

Having looked at the scene - Bob’s boss had already assaulted him. You can say it’s just poking etc but someone grabbing your jaw and then poking you in the chest is not going to go down well in a court of law, that’s definitely provocation.
And they were cheap chipboard walls and clearly no serious injury was incurred.

[Fish]

I feel like it's unlikely to be the entire ultimate resolution to either of their stories because it's tangential to the heroes. "Xykon and Redcloak self-destruct due to their inherent problems" is a bit out of left field.
I could totally see how Xykon and Redcloak could have a falling out that makes everything worse.

For instance, they enact their plan and cast the spell. The Dark One starts slaying gods. This tips off Xykon, who finds out Redcloak’s plan to betray him for the Dark One, and Xykon skives off to deal with the pesky deity. Because Redcloak established his goblin city beneath the Snarl, it’s possible enough goblins have been killed to weaken the Dark One enough for this to be possible. But Redcloak is a cleric of a cause (as foreshadowed early on) and doesn’t need his deity to cast spells, so they do battle. Now we have a bunch of dead gods and there’s nobody to blow up the planet…

So yeah, I can imagine ways that their conflict could conceivably be quite central to everything. Or not, you never know.

[pearl jam]

It’s strange that Gotham has so many billionaires like Bruce Wayne and yet it seems their police and more importantly their social services are incredibly underfunded leading to that massive crime rate.
We see a lot of charity dinners etc in the comics as well - where does all the money go? Is Batman fiddling his taxes? Or is this just another DC issue?
Edit : I guess some writers realised that and so they invented a 40,000 year old warlock being buried there (and because it’s DC saying the entire continent was uninhabited) and creating a permanent aura of evil. Like you do.
Edit 2 : on further research it seems that ras al ghul also planted some corruption pits under the city to make it that way.

Social services being chronically underfunded is hardly unique to Gotham in many cities, real or fictional.

[Shoelessgdowar]

The Oracle was always colloquial in his prophecies not mathematical logical statements.

Repetition is not stuttering. You get a nice ellipses and new speech bubble (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) to indicate that it's two separate iterations, to reinforce her will.

V was speaking to herself to bolster her will to commit to the Evil Act in the face of an absurd counter contingency.

Wait, "their times are always wrong" so this time it's not wrong?

Again, colloquial Common.

They have literally all come true now except Elan's happy ending. And arguably that one too.

1) If the prophecy is a prophecy, then accuracy matters, otherwise it isn't accurate.
2) Then Repetition is unnecessary, ergo, only the three words count, the first I didn't matter to the statement... as you said, it was separate, and had no bearing on the rest.
3) For V to be the right person, then no one else was needed, for it to be an Evil Act it had to be a WRONG Person.
4) That is the point, the time was wrong, but the prophecy said the time was the right time. For it to be the right time, there would have to be nothing wrong or evil involved. It was arguably the Worst time.
5) Nope, not colloquial, it is a prophecy, where words and specifics matter. Otherwise the prophecy could be, "After Banjo has risen to power and has faced his nemesis." or "When you least expect it" or "Some time after this strip", because if the details didn't matter, then it wouldn't matter what was said.
6) None of the Prophecies have come true. The Oracle has tried to retcon events to fit the narrative that he is infallible and his prophecies become fulfilled. He even has the memory charm so people can't remember all his mistakes, slips, and how wrong he is and how he has to justify his mistakes. Xykon was in The Gate Room, not his throne room, as evidenced by the Gate being there and by Xykon's Throne being in his Phylactery. Haley never met a gift horse, she did confront a Trojan Horse, the two are polar opposites. Durkon returned to his homelands alive (upon Durkula being defeated), Durkula arrived in the homelands unhumously, neither was posthumously as neither soul was dead and moved on to the afterlife. Belkar didn't cause a single death on his list, Miko accidentally killed herself, Miko's horse is alive, Roy died because of gravity and is alive again, V hasn't died, and the Oracle committed suicide and is alive again. Roy's question was twisted by the Oracle, since the correct and only answer was "Neither you pedantic meat sac, he will be by the Azure Gate first, no matter what you ask, I am bound to give the correct and true answer, not some twisted generalization or joke. I am an Oracle, not a Djinn or Jester." The Ginko Bilboa did nothing.



The "I" was said twice, even in two separate bubbles; therefore, two separate words.


V could be speaking to the IFCC or themselves in saying that. Just because they're not on panel doesn't mean they disappeared.


"The right time" was the right time "to achieve complete and total ultimate arcane power."


"All the wrong reasons" was for V's need to prove the superiority of magic, or their own superiority, or both. "I must succeed," emphasis on "I," is not "I must save my family" or "I must stop Xykon."

Let's recap:
1) if it is repeated, it is superfluous, it is unnecessary, it is separate and irrelevant, and therefore it was only three words, the first I wasn't part of the words that mattered.
2) Again, not the Right Being (being, singular, and right, not evil, not wrong, not worst).
3) No, it wasn't. The right time to achieve complete and total ultimate power is when V was well-rested, ready, had a solid plan, and was not in a crisis. It was the wrong time, it was really one of the worst times possible.
4) One reason is not ALL the Wrong Reasons, it is just one wrong reason, and actually it wasn't a wrong reason, it was a neutral reason... and in fact, "I must fail" would be a wrong reason as well, and it wasn't among the reasons, so it wasn't even two wrong reasons, it was hardly one wrong reason, so it was far from ALL the wrong reasons (reasons, plural, meaning more than one)


Eh, if you really don't want that interpretation, then just take "Disintegrate. Gust of wind." Four right words to end Kubota. Exactly the right time, as it was the end of an arc, the first moment V saw him, and before he could go tell everybody to prepare the trial of the century. The wrong reasons, since V killed Kubota just because Elan was holding him prisoner, without knowing anything of the situation, and finally the right person because has V not killed Kubota in front of Elan, he would not have lashed out towards V, and V would probably have not left the ship and found hirself on that island at the right time for VBD to threaten him and push him to reach ultimate arcane power. We have already seen that the prophecies of the oracle can have convoluted resolutions with several acceptable interpretations (see the argument between Belkar and the Oracle), so both interpretations can be acceptable. The "official" one is more direct, the roundabout one is more literal. Choose the one you prefer.

You, like the Oracle, can try to retcon how wrong the Oracle is all you like, but even the title of the strip was The Wrong Reasons (Three Words, plural reasons, meaning an incorrect prophecy)




Broken link.



Thanks, fixed, hope you enjoy... but if you don't... don't blame me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZAY-78zhmw)

[TurboGhast]

This could get bad for Xykon. I invite you to count the letters in the words yes and no.

If he was on evens he could get around that by saying yeah instead, but he put himself on odd length words.

[Ruck]

It’s strange that Gotham has so many billionaires like Bruce Wayne and yet it seems their police and more importantly their social services are incredibly underfunded leading to that massive crime rate.

I feel like it might be dicey to get any more specific than "This was one of the themes of Joker," but there's typically a causal connection between these two things.

[AlurenDarkfire]

Soooo... The Quinton *definitely* heard them talking about taking the Snarl and killing gods, right?

[Ruck]

Let's recap:
1) if it is repeated, it is superfluous, it is unnecessary, it is separate and irrelevant, and therefore it was only three words, the first I wasn't part of the words that mattered.

That is your assumption and assertion that repeating the same word does not count as two separate words. I'm sure any number of editors and word processing applications would beg to differ. Just because you say so don't make it so.


2) Again, not the Right Being (being, singular, and right, not evil, not wrong, not worst).

You are again simply asserting this, and also forcing a very narrow and specific definition of "right" that does not encompass all the possible meanings (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/right) of the word, one of which is "suitable or appropriate."

If V was speaking to themself, then V is the suitable or appropriate being, because V was convincing themself to take the deal.


3) No, it wasn't. The right time to achieve complete and total ultimate power is when V was well-rested, ready, had a solid plan, and was not in a crisis. It was the wrong time, it was really one of the worst times possible.

"The right time" is the time the opportunity is afforded to you. It was the right time-- again, the suitable or appropriate time-- for V because it was the time V was offered the power they sought. Again, this is based on you insisting that only one of the multiple definitions of "right" is valid.


4) One reason is not ALL the Wrong Reasons, it is just one wrong reason, and actually it wasn't a wrong reason, it was a neutral reason... and in fact, "I must fail" would be a wrong reason as well, and it wasn't among the reasons, so it wasn't even two wrong reasons, it was hardly one wrong reason, so it was far from ALL the wrong reasons (reasons, plural, meaning more than one)

"All the wrong reasons" may be a bit hyperbolic-- I will certainly not argue that trying to save the lives and souls of V's children was a wrong reason-- but the Oracle often speaks hyperbolically, metaphorically, or allegorically when appropriate. In this case, it's a combination of two attributes V shared with Nale and Eugene: Nale's need to be the one to pull off his plans and for everyone to know it, and Eugene's belief that arcane magic is completely superior and can solve any problem. That plus V's desire for power for its own sake are "all the wrong reasons."

And if we're being overly literal, we could say that the Oracle said V would accept "for all the wrong reasons" means not that all the reasons V took the deal were wrong, but that all the wrong reasons to take the deal were reasons that factored into V's decision. If V was not someone consumed by the idea of achieving total arcane power, then those wrong reasons may not have factored into V's decision.

In summary: Your insistence the prophecy was not correct is dependent on an extremely narrow interpretation and definition of certain words, which are not shared by and large by the English-speaking population. Furthermore, you are fully dismissing the Oracle's tendency to speak somewhat metaphorically when it is appropriate, and saying the Oracle must be exactly literal for V's and only V's prophecy. Unless you want to also argue that Haley's prophecy wasn't fulfilled because she did not literally receive a gift of a horse, and therefore never even had the opportunity to look it in the mouth.

[The MunchKING]

And they were cheap chipboard walls and clearly no serious injury was incurred.

Dude was in a full body cast when we next see him....



If he was on evens he could get around that by saying yeah instead, but he put himself on odd length words.

I SAY THEE, NAY!


Isn't Bruce one of the very, very few ones who actually give a crap about people? I also recall that he does help via the Bruce Wayne persona as well as the Batman persona(I'm probably misusing terms here but that's not the point) with things such as charity, yes.

In the animated series at least, loads of socialites show up to the charity parties. How much they are donating and how often the parties get robbed by some criminal or another is left unstated.


Edit: Also, regarding the Incredibles thing - what made Bob snap wasn't his boss chewing him out about his work, but because someone was outright being mugged outside the window and the boss more or less laughed it off IIRC. That was the point when Bob grabbed him by the neck and threw him so hard he smashed through multiple walls.


Not just laughed it off, complied that if Bob had his way he'd cost them more money to help that guy.


1) If the prophecy is a prophecy, then accuracy matters, otherwise it isn't accurate.

Doesn't have to be accurate. It just has to be Right.


2) Then Repetition is unnecessary, ergo, only the three words count, the first I didn't matter to the statement... as you said, it was separate, and had no bearing on the rest.

It is not unnecessary, It was reiteration to show that it was about I must succeed, not anyone else.


3) For V to be the right person, then no one else was needed, for it to be an Evil Act it had to be a WRONG Person.

I don't understand your logic here. what does Evil have to do with it? He said V would say the right four words ("I... I must succeed."), to the right person (V to reassure herself that it was right and take the deal) at the right time, (I.E. the only time Ultimate power was offered to her), for all the wrong reasons (Wanting more Arcane Power so she didn't have to admit she was weak and/or that anything else was a valid combat strategy other than "More magic").

Nothing in there about the act being good or evil, or that wrongness in a moral sense needed to be involved at all.


4) That is the point, the time was wrong, but the prophecy said the time was the right time. For it to be the right time, there would have to be nothing wrong or evil involved. It was arguably the Worst time.

It was by definition the right time to say the 4 words and get the ultimate power, because it was the only time it was offered.

I think your mixing up Right time to do something with morally right.



5) Nope, not colloquial, it is a prophecy, where words and specifics matter. Otherwise the prophecy could be, "After Banjo has risen to power and has faced his nemesis." or "When you least expect it" or "Some time after this strip", because if the details didn't matter, then it wouldn't matter what was said.

All of those would have been equally valid answers, yes.


EDIT: except not "When you least expect it" because V was told that's what she was getting, and thus she would have expected it.



6) None of the Prophecies have come true. The Oracle has tried to retcon events to fit the narrative that he is infallible and his prophecies become fulfilled. He even has the memory charm so people can't remember all his mistakes, slips, and how wrong he is and how he has to justify his mistakes. Xykon was in The Gate Room, not his throne room, as evidenced by the Gate being there and by Xykon's Throne being in his Phylactery.

He had a big old throne in the Gate room. Also how would you fit a throne in a holy symbol?


Go out and buy a holy symbol for any religion you like. If you bought one intended to be worn around your neck, there's no way you're fitting a chair big enough for your pelvis in there.



Haley never met a gift horse, she did confront a Trojan Horse, the two are polar opposites.

"Beware of Greeks bearing Gifts". The OG Trogen Horse was not the opposite of a gift, it WAS a gift.

To Poseidon or Athena, sure not the Troy people, but it was still a gift.

Also gift horse in the mouth is totally a standard saying. The fact that he uses those shows he's perfectly capable of prophesizing in colloquial speech.



Durkon returned to his homelands alive (upon Durkula being defeated), Durkula arrived in the homelands unhumously, neither was posthumously as neither soul was dead and moved on to the afterlife.

And yet, the body was still dead.



Belkar didn't cause a single death on his list, Miko accidentally killed herself, Miko's horse is alive, Roy died because of gravity and is alive again, V hasn't died, and the Oracle committed suicide and is alive again.

Man I want you at my murder trials. "Sure the defendant totally stabbed the guy repeatedly with multiple weapons, but the victim actually committed suicide by dying on the defendant's blades!"



Roy's question was twisted by the Oracle, since the correct and only answer was "Neither you pedantic meat sac, he will be by the Azure Gate first, no matter what you ask, I am bound to give the correct and true answer, not some twisted generalization or joke. I am an Oracle, not a Djinn or Jester."

That's not a correct answer to the question asked though. That would in fact be the very lie you accuse him of making.




The Ginko Bilboa did nothing.


And yet V started remembering Blacking more after that encounter.



3) No, it wasn't. The right time to achieve complete and total ultimate power is when V was well-rested, ready, had a solid plan, and was not in a crisis. It was the wrong time, it was really one of the worst times possible.

It wasn't being OFFERED at any of those other times though. It was the right time because if V waited until she tranced, they wouldn't still be offering, and her family would be long dead.