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pendell
2007-11-29, 03:29 PM
It's been a long time since I've done any active adventuring, so I have to ask:

-- what makes That Da*n Crab so Da*n bad? I mean, I read the stat sheet at WOTC and it reads like ... a really big sea monster. Why is it so terrifying?

Innocently,

Brian P.

Green Bean
2007-11-29, 03:32 PM
It's been a long time since I've done any active adventuring, so I have to ask:

-- what makes That Da*n Crab so Da*n bad? I mean, I read the stat sheet at WOTC and it reads like ... a really big sea monster. Why is it so terrifying?

Innocently,

Brian P.

Take a look at the claw damage (especially on a grapple). Check the monster's CR. Compare said claw damage to the HP of a character at the crab's CR.

Frosty
2007-11-29, 04:31 PM
The crab is CR 6 in my opinion.

Chronos
2007-11-29, 04:56 PM
Last time it came up, someone ran the numbers and concluded that vs. a level 3 party, That Damned Crab would have a 93% chance of killing one party member on the first round of combat, then an 80% chance of getting another one on the second. At which point it retreats to the deeps to enjoy its meals, so you can't even recover the remains to raise your friends, or go through their pockets for spare change.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't necessarily kill instantly, but if it gets a hit and succeeds on its grapple check (both very likely), it's almost guaranteed to be able to keep you in the grapple for long enough for its constriction to kill you. And there's nothing that a 3rd-level character is likely to be able to do about it in the meanwhile.

kjones
2007-11-29, 05:04 PM
It's not that That Damn Crab is so horrifying in and of itself. It's a reasonable encounter...

... for a party of Level 6 or thereabouts. A CR of 3 means that it should be a reasonable challenge for a 3rd level party, whereas all evidence indicates that it would be, in fact, overwhelmingly powerful.

The problem is exacerbated (as shown in Fax Celestis' threads on the subject) when That Damn Crab is advanced or given templates.

kpenguin
2007-11-29, 05:13 PM
It's been a long time since I've done any active adventuring, so I have to ask:

-- what makes That Da*n Crab so Da*n bad? I mean, I read the stat sheet at WOTC and it reads like ... a really big sea monster. Why is it so terrifying?

Innocently,

Brian P.

You know, you don't have to put the asterisks there.

Anyway, let's compare the monstrous crab to a similar vermin of the same CR, the giant praying mantis.

Monstrous Crab:
Monstrous Crab
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 7d8+35 (66 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+19
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d8+9, improved grab, powerful claws
Special Qualities: Amphibious, darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 21, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: --
Feats: --
Environment: Temperate coastal
Organization: Solitary, pair, or swarm (6-10)
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 8-10 HD (Large), 11-21 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

Giant Praying Mantis:
Giant Praying Mantis
Size/Type: Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Claws +6 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Claws +6 melee (1d8+4) and bite +1 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft (4 squares)./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +0, Will +3
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 8, Con 15, Int Ø, Wis 14, Cha 11
Skills: Hide -1*, Spot +6
Feats: —
Environment: Temperate forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 3
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large); 9-12 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —

The crab has:

Over double the mantis' hp
Double the mantis' land speed
A higher AC by 5
Better base attack and grapple bonuses
Two claw attacks that outstrip the mantis' claws and bite in both attack bonus and damage
Better Reflex and Fortitude saves and only a slightly weaker Will save
Significantly higher strength, dexterity, and constitution
Two special abilities in addition to improved grapple

kjones
2007-11-29, 05:17 PM
To that, I would add that its lower will save basically doesn't matter, as it is a mindless vermin and is thus immune to many things that would require a will save. So its "weakness" isn't really a weakness at all.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-29, 07:28 PM
Last time it came up, someone ran the numbers and concluded that vs. a level 3 party, That Damned Crab would have a 93% chance of killing one party member on the first round of combat, then an 80% chance of getting another one on the second. At which point it retreats to the deeps to enjoy its meals, so you can't even recover the remains to raise your friends, or go through their pockets for spare change.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't necessarily kill instantly, but if it gets a hit and succeeds on its grapple check (both very likely), it's almost guaranteed to be able to keep you in the grapple for long enough for its constriction to kill you. And there's nothing that a 3rd-level character is likely to be able to do about it in the meanwhile.

Not exactly true. A Cleric with the Travel domain can activate a Freedom of Movement effect as the domain ability and get the heck out of there. That has to count as something...:smallamused:

Frosty
2007-11-29, 07:32 PM
Perhaps that says more about the cleric than anything else?

We should stat out mock battles between that crab and all other CR3 creatures and see if any other non-flying CR3 can beat it :smallbiggrin:

Can an optimized level 3 group beat it without deaths I wonder...

Foeofthelance
2007-11-29, 07:45 PM
Can an optimized level 3 group beat it without deaths I wonder...

Sure. A bunch of rangers with longbows should be able to stay ahead of it long enough to whittle it down, and a party of mages might be able to hit it with enough direct damage. (What's the range on Scorching ray? 16d6 every round for 2-3 rounds should kill it.) I don't know if that counts as optimized or not, esepcially considering how the forum frowns on Evocation, :smalltongue: , but it might be doable.

But as with most things the question isn't can we make four characters capable of taking down the crab at level 3, its can we make four characters who can take down the crab as part of a standard dungeon at level 3?

Shadowdweller
2007-11-29, 08:06 PM
Not exactly true. A Cleric with the Travel domain can activate a Freedom of Movement effect as the domain ability and get the heck out of there. That has to count as something...
Nope. The Travel domain ability applies to magic effects only.

Draz74
2007-11-29, 08:18 PM
To that, I would add that its lower will save basically doesn't matter, as it is a mindless vermin and is thus immune to many things that would require a will save. So its "weakness" isn't really a weakness at all.

Not entirely true ... a Level 3 Wizard can have Glitterdust, and being Blind would hinder the Crab a bit, would it not?

goken04
2007-11-29, 08:19 PM
Last time it came up, someone ran the numbers and concluded that vs. a level 3 party, That Damned Crab would have a 93% chance of killing one party member on the first round of combat, then an 80% chance of getting another one on the second. At which point it retreats to the deeps to enjoy its meals, so you can't even recover the remains to raise your friends, or go through their pockets for spare change.

Over Thanksgiving break, I ran a low-level one-shot for my players back home. They just wanted to do some combat, so I told them I wanted to show them how powerful this one monster was and that it would probably eat them alive; they said go for it.

They fought three other CR 3 encounters before TDC. Only once did any of them take any HP damage. ONCE! My players are great optimizers (when it comes to melee, anyways...). Then they fought TDC... It went just like Chronos said: Charge and grab the barbarian. Next round: grabbed the druid. Retreat to water (which took a few rounds as my brother's Psion/Wizard dropped some serious speed-reducing powers on him with jacked saves). That's okay, because no one was able to do enough damage to him before he got in the water, anyways. The end.

Oh, and did I mention that I gave them max-HP, 300 extra starting gold, and they were gestalt. TDC does, indeed, stand a fantastic chance of killing off two level 3 characters in any encounter it has with a level 3 party.

EDIT:


Not entirely true ... a Level 3 Wizard can have Glitterdust, and being Blind would hinder the Crab a bit, would it not?

Not if it's already retreating. It can only move at half speeds, sure, but that's the only RAW movement restriction. Way I ruled it (since there's no rules that dictate how great/little an idea a blinded character has of where it intends to go), since crabs just walk sideways, he had no trouble (besides the reduced movement) heading for the ocean.

pendell
2007-11-30, 07:56 AM
So why was it given CR 3 originally in the first place?

Silly question ... but is TDC *supposed* to be played intelligently? I mean, it doesn't have an int score, right? Is it supposed to be played with the kind of intelligent strategy that says 'grab the barbarian first, then the druid' -- I mean, c'mon, it's a *crab*.

But that's nerfing, I suppose.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Badgerish
2007-11-30, 08:27 AM
it's still deadly with an accurate level of intelligence.

are both claws full?
if yes: run to water, hide and eat
if no: is there prey within reach + 5' step?
if yes: 5' step, attack nearest, improved grab
if no: is there prey within charging distance?
if yes: charge nearest, attack, improved grab
if no: run or double-move towards prey

repeat as needed

even if the nearest person is a defence-focused knight with fullplate and shield, this is hardly a bad tactic

this simple programming does have a weakness though, summoned animals/monsters or zombies make easy distractions while the party runs away (summons do disappear when killed though, freeing up claws again)

i'm happy with this monster as a CR 5 or 6.

Ryshan Ynrith
2007-11-30, 08:29 AM
It doesn't matter particularly which characters it targets, the point is that even on instinct, it wants to grab two people and then retreat to the ocean to eat them, and you essentially cannot stop this at third level.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-30, 08:33 AM
Yeah it has the right tactics for its int and is far too powerful.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-30, 08:38 AM
Add to this that it's written as an ambush predator, the only way a party of 3rd level has a prayer is if they have advanced warning and room to move out of the way. in which case it just slips back into the water.:smallfrown: Not exactly my idea of overcoming a challenge. Otherwise it's rolls all round and bright shiney new character sheets.:smallmad:

Frosty
2007-11-30, 11:24 AM
Maybe Some Entangles combined with Grease on the ground. anything to really hamper its movement will help.

Wonder who'd win between it and the Fleshraker. Grapple checks are just too high even for the raker I bet.

Chronos
2007-11-30, 03:36 PM
Is it supposed to be played with the kind of intelligent strategy that says 'grab the barbarian first, then the druid'It's more like "Grab the closest thing first". I imagine that in goken04's game, the closest characters just happened to be the barbarian and the druid. And yes, that's the tactic that's described in its entry, so with a non-int, that's really the only way you can justify it fighting.

Telonius
2007-11-30, 03:43 PM
It's more like "Grab the closest thing first". I imagine that in goken04's game, the closest characters just happened to be the barbarian and the druid. And yes, that's the tactic that's described in its entry, so with a non-int, that's really the only way you can justify it fighting.

Makes sense for the Barbarian to be closest. Charging up is kind of their thing.

Signmaker
2007-11-30, 05:54 PM
Maybe Some Entangles combined with Grease on the ground. anything to really hamper its movement will help.

Wonder who'd win between it and the Fleshraker. Grapple checks are just too high even for the raker I bet.

I could see this working well if TDC was played outside of its natural environment (Beach, water, etc.), but the concept of greasing sand never did really click with me...

Lyinginbedmon
2007-11-30, 06:02 PM
Okay, obviously I've missed something interesting. What is That Damn Crab? :smallconfused:

Captain van der Decken
2007-11-30, 06:14 PM
You can find it here. (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a)

puppyavenger
2007-11-30, 06:14 PM
Monsteros crab from the WOTC website, stats are already posred.

Lyinginbedmon
2007-11-30, 06:33 PM
Yeah, I see what you mean. The Grapple check plus Constrict damage is insane for a CR 3

Frosty
2007-12-01, 12:21 AM
It's mroe than insane. It's Impossible(tm)

CartesianDaemon
2007-12-04, 02:34 PM
Question: Improved Grab in the SRD says "-20 to not use whole body for grapple, just use attacking limb, attacker not considered grappled", which I infer is what the crab is doing. Does that -20 apply to the grapple modifier? Is it already taken into account in the number given?

If not, the net grapple modifier is +19-20 = -1, which is more like a 50/50 chance to escape (or better for a melee character).

Is that the case? If so, it's still insane, it just takes four rounds to kill two characters rather than two.

Yakk
2007-12-04, 03:46 PM
Laugh! I think you are right!

The combat description implies that it just uses the claw, which means it grapples at a total modifier of -1 instead of +19.

So:
Attack @+10 (tends to hit) for 1d8+9 damage (avg 13.5).
Free Grapple Check @ -1 for 1d8+9 damage (avg 13.5).

So the claws tend to hit, but the grapple tends to fail. It is still nasty, but not godly. :)

Note that if the crab does grapple you, you are in deep ****: 27 damage each round on average. (It does both claw-attack and constrict damage, from my reading of the improved grab ability...)

Cuddly
2007-12-04, 04:03 PM
So That Damn Crab isn't that damned; Fax just wasn't playing the game right?

Fax Celestis
2007-12-04, 04:13 PM
So That Damn Crab isn't that damned; Fax just wasn't playing the game right?

Not particularly, no. The relevant text there does indeed make it so that one can treat as not being grappled by taking -20, but you don't have to.

All this means is that TDC gets one player instead of two...at least, until it gets to its advanced, Large (or larger) forms.

Cuddly
2007-12-04, 04:23 PM
The difference between 1 person and 2 is a quarter of the party, and a half the party. Which is actually pretty significant, esp. considering the limited options one has in a grapple.

fendrin
2007-12-04, 04:24 PM
Actually, this is very likely the case, otherwise once grappling the crab would have to make a grapple check to move, and even then it would only be at half speed.

Besides, the crab can be defeated easily by a lvl 1 warlock: spiderclimb up a tree/wall/etc. and blast it 'till it leaves you alone.

EDIT: Double ninja'd!


Not particularly, no. The relevant text there does indeed make it so that one can treat as not being grappled by taking -20, but you don't have to.

All this means is that TDC gets one player instead of two...at least, until it gets to its advanced, Large (or larger) forms.
Do you really think that is natural behavior for a crab? I don't, and I would say that acting that unnaturally would require either additional intelligence or additional training.

I mean, really, can you imaging a crab rolling around with a creature much smaller than it clamped in both claws, and held in tight with all six legs? Then what, it rolls over to another target, then rolls back to the water? That really seems strange to me.

Drider
2007-12-04, 04:32 PM
or you can be on a ship that is being attacked by a bunch, and have the sailors take the main attacks instead of party...:smallbiggrin:

Darkantra
2007-12-04, 05:17 PM
Ye gods I always forget how destructive this thing is, but was there a thread where the 3rd level party decimation actually occured, and if so might I please have the link?

I just took a flip through the MM and a few other books and I see nothing below CR 6, excepting flying monsters, that could kill it.

fendrin
2007-12-04, 06:47 PM
Ye gods I always forget how destructive this thing is, but was there a thread where the 3rd level party decimation actually occured, and if so might I please have the link?

I just took a flip through the MM and a few other books and I see nothing below CR 6, excepting flying monsters, that could kill it.

Uh, a shadow would own it. Can't be grappled, ignores natural armor, can't drown... though I suppose they qualify as 'flying', though that has nothing to do with it.

I mentioned a warlock 1 above. How about this: lvl 1 commoner.

What? Yup. Dip a couple sheep in ingestion poison and send 'em in to be feasted on.

Foeofthelance
2007-12-04, 06:53 PM
Actually, reading through all the text, I think the +19 bonus stands. There's no mention of the penalty in the crab's text, and I can't recall seeing any mention of it in any other creature's abilities text. So either this a rule no one applies, or it has already been taken into account by the writers/editors at some point. (I know WotC has a reputation for spotty coherency in its books, but every monster from the get go? That's pushing it.)

I think part of the problem is people misreading "full use of the body". The crab isn't trying to pin an opponent; there's no reason for it to wrap its body around the target. Its just taking hold and squeezing, "Full use of the body" probably means, in this case at least, grab and squeezing with the claws while using the legs for leverage or balance. Also, the rest of the line reads, (emphasis mine)
"it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself" The crab isn't trying to avoid being counted as grappled. It just wants dinner.

And then of course there's the final reason to still fear the crab. It does what, an average of 27 damage with a hit/grapple? A level 3 dwarf barbarian, with full HP and a 20 Con score has 51 hit points. He lasts two turns. After that the crab isn't grappling, its holding an object...

fendrin
2007-12-04, 07:09 PM
If the crab was full-body grappling, it would only be able to take one person. when grappling there is no way to attack a second creature. Thus the crab's modus operandi only functions with the -20 penalty.

Oh, and the -20 is part of the improved grab ability, so it's part of every monster description it applies to. Whether or not DMs apply it is a separate matter.

As a quick exercise, I'll calculate the grapple check, to prove that the -20 isn't built in:

Grapple check = BAB + str mod + special size modifier + misc
19 = 5 + 6 + 4 + 4 [powerful claws ability]

so no, the -20 isn't included.

Foeofthelance
2007-12-04, 07:19 PM
Oh, and the -20 is part of the improved grab ability, so it's part of every monster description it applies to. Whether or not DMs apply it is a separate matter.

Its listed in the SRD as being part of the Improved Grab ability. I can't recall a single monster with it actually listed in the ability. So I wouldn't be surprised that DMs don't apply it. If its not there, and you don't depend on the SRD, you wouldn't know it existed. (My group for example. We're all not rich enough to buy every book we want, but collectively we're rich enough to buy every book we want to share.) I'll check my books when I get home to see if its listed in any of them, to see if there's a hard copy version of the ruling running around.

My point though, was that if the -20 penalty was supposed to apply to the crab grabbing two people, which it is stated as doing, it should have been mentioned in the ability itself. That's a rather important penalty to just forget to put in. As we're discussing here, its the difference between a TPK and a trip to get the meatshield rezzed.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-04, 07:39 PM
Its listed in the SRD as being part of the Improved Grab ability. I can't recall a single monster with it actually listed in the ability. So I wouldn't be surprised that DMs don't apply it. If its not there, and you don't depend on the SRD, you wouldn't know it existed. (My group for example. We're all not rich enough to buy every book we want, but collectively we're rich enough to buy every book we want to share.) I'll check my books when I get home to see if its listed in any of them, to see if there's a hard copy version of the ruling running around.

My point though, was that if the -20 penalty was supposed to apply to the crab grabbing two people, which it is stated as doing, it should have been mentioned in the ability itself. That's a rather important penalty to just forget to put in. As we're discussing here, its the difference between a TPK and a trip to get the meatshield rezzed.

A relevant quote from the SRD:


Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.
The key words here are "has the option". In this case, it's not a very good idea for TDC to take the penalty. The Advanced CR 8 version (found in the Whiteplume Mountain adventure) has a +32 Grapple. Even with the penalty that's more than enough to ensure a grapple on non-grapple focused targets.

fendrin
2007-12-04, 07:54 PM
Improved Grab: MM pg. 310

Unfortunately, nothing tells a DM that there is more info in the glossary.
It's a mistake to include some, but not all, information in the monster description, especially without a page reference to the full information.

EDIT: At CR 8, the advanced version seems about right with a +12 claw-only grapple. At CR 3 the +19 is ridiculous for a single-claw grab.

As for being tactically a poor choice, we are talking about a creature with essentially a 0 intelligence. It doesn't really think, nevermind think tactically.

Darkantra
2007-12-04, 08:01 PM
Uh, a shadow would own it. Can't be grappled, ignores natural armor, can't drown... though I suppose they qualify as 'flying', though that has nothing to do with it.

I mentioned a warlock 1 above. How about this: lvl 1 commoner.

What? Yup. Dip a couple sheep in ingestion poison and send 'em in to be feasted on.

Fair enough. When I said that I flipped through I really did mean that I took a quick flip through, so I probably missed a few. I shall rephrase my point.

That Damn Crab can kill anything under CR 6, except for creatures which are incoporeal, can escape from its reach (flying/climbing creatures), has a fast healing too large for it to deal adequate damage to (I'm looking at you Hydra :smallmad:), or is specifically optimized against it.

Although now that I'm looking a fight against a Dire Lion may be a toss up.

As for the commoner thing, I don't think that counts because there's very little chance that a commoner could lay their hands on a poison. Even if one managed to do this the Crab already has a +10 Fort save, so it can easily shrug off most ingestion poisons. Hmm... what's the ECL for a commoner with dozens of doses of poison and dozens of sheep?

Although :smallconfused:... that could be a vallid method of defense for a village under siege if they pooled their resources...

Theodoxus
2007-12-04, 08:04 PM
I'm gonna second the question - who the heck rated this as CR3? (In the WotC QC department, if such an entity even exists.) Even with the -20 modifier to grapple potential, this thing would be difficult for an average 3rd level group to take out. Optimized, it wouldn't be a problem, but a classic 'WotC' style party will loose someone to it.

As for the 'option to choose' to use a full body grapple, not likely. Crabs irl don't do that, fantastical crabs shouldn't either. Why have all that armor just to leave yourself open to attack when you're trying to get dinner. These are mindless creatures - they operate exactly as described in the combat section. In essense, they're robots, enacting the same program over and over: grab with a claw, grab with the other claw, go home and eat, repeat. No changing that fundamental programming whatsoever.

Theo

fendrin
2007-12-04, 08:08 PM
I'm gonna second the question - who the heck rated this as CR3? (In the WotC QC department, if such an entity even exists.) Even with the -20 modifier to grapple potential, this thing would be difficult for an average 3rd level group to take out. Optimized, it wouldn't be a problem, but a classic 'WotC' style party will loose someone to it.
Web content has always had poorer QC than the books (and we all know how bad the books are...).


As for the 'option to choose' to use a full body grapple, not likely. Crabs irl don't do that, fantastical crabs shouldn't either. Why have all that armor just to leave yourself open to attack when you're trying to get dinner. These are mindless creatures - they operate exactly as described in the combat section. In essense, they're robots, enacting the same program over and over: grab with a claw, grab with the other claw, go home and eat, repeat. No changing that fundamental programming whatsoever.
I concur 100%.

Fax Celestis
2007-12-04, 08:16 PM
Web content has always had poorer QC than the books (and we all know how bad the books are...).

It's actually from a book: Stormwrack.

Also, as far as your comment regarding it being mindless above, what I describe isn't it thinking tactically. It's not thinking at all, any more than, "Hey food." *grab* "NOM NOM NOM." Swinging with the higher grapple means that the crab has a better chance at getting his dinner.

fendrin
2007-12-04, 09:00 PM
It's actually from a book: Stormwrack.

Also, as far as your comment regarding it being mindless above, what I describe isn't it thinking tactically. It's not thinking at all, any more than, "Hey food." *grab* "NOM NOM NOM." Swinging with the higher grapple means that the crab has a better chance at getting his dinner.

The article (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040221a) that we have been looking at was written a year and a half before the book was published. There are some differences between the two as well. Comparing the article to Stormwrack's large version:
{table=head]|article|Stormwrack
HD|7|6
Init Mod|+2|+0
Land Speed|40'|20'
Swim Speed|30'| (none)
AC|19|18
BAB/Grapple|+5/+19|+4/+17
Claw Atk/Damage|+10/1d8+9|+8/1d8+5
Constrict Damage|1d8+9|2d8+5
Saves(F/R/W)|+10/+4/+2|+6/+2/+2
CR|3|4[/table]

As we can see, the Stormwrack crab is weaker and has a higher CR.

Both would operate on instinct alone, which as I and others have argued, means taking the -20 penalty.

Chronos
2007-12-04, 09:36 PM
Swinging with the higher grapple means that the crab has a better chance at getting his dinner.Remember, very few things are evolved to eat adventurers (yeah, yeah, other than the Gelatinous Cube). The Crab just eats whatever it sees moving that's small enough to fit into a claw, and most things that meet that description don't stand a chance against even the penalized grapple check. Against such creatures, grabbing with only one claw at a time is what will get it the most dinner quickest, so that's how it's evolved to behave. Sure, against a party of humanoids with class levels, the whole-body grapple would be a better option, but the crab doesn't know that, so it just assumes that the best tactic for everything else is the best tactic for adventurers, too.

Yakk
2007-12-05, 04:40 PM
Actually, reading through all the text, I think the +19 bonus stands. There's no mention of the penalty in the crab's text, and I can't recall seeing any mention of it in any other creature's abilities text. So either this a rule no one applies, or it has already been taken into account by the writers/editors at some point. (I know WotC has a reputation for spotty coherency in its books, but every monster from the get go? That's pushing it.)

No, it says it has a +19 grapple modifier. How you use the improved grapple ability determines how you use your grapple modifier.

If you attack a single creature and grapple it (like a bear doing a bear hug), you use your full grapple modifier.

If you grab it with just that limb and hold the target with just that limb (like the crab does), you use the grapple modifier -20.


I think part of the problem is people misreading "full use of the body". The crab isn't trying to pin an opponent; there's no reason for it to wrap its body around the target. Its just taking hold and squeezing, "Full use of the body" probably means, in this case at least, grab and squeezing with the claws while using the legs for leverage or balance. Also, the rest of the line reads, (emphasis mine) The crab isn't trying to avoid being counted as grappled. It just wants dinner.

The combat text says it grabs two people. You cannot grab two people without using the "only use one hand to grapple them" system.


And then of course there's the final reason to still fear the crab. It does what, an average of 27 damage with a hit/grapple? A level 3 dwarf barbarian, with full HP and a 20 Con score has 51 hit points. He lasts two turns. After that the crab isn't grappling, its holding an object...

Yes, but the grapple is only likely to succeed on weaker opponents: ones that tend not to get into melee range. The L 3 barbarian with 20 strength raging has a grapple modifier of +8, vs TDC's one-handed modifier of -1.

On the other hand, a strength 8 halfling L 3 sorcerer has a grapple modifier of -4.


The key words here are "has the option". In this case, it's not a very good idea for TDC to take the penalty.

It is non-intelligent.


A monstrous crab is straightforward in combat. It lumbers forth toward the nearest target and attacks with its claws. Once a monstrous crab has a morsel or creature in each claw, it retreats into the water to feed. Creatures held in its claws when it does so soon drown if they can't breathe water.

It attempts to get a creature or morsel in each claw -- there is no talk about holding down the morsel until it stops wriggling. It grabs with a single claw. Hence -20 penalty to the grapple check.

More importantly, played like this, you end up with an encounter that is closer to CR 3. It also follows the exact same tactics that the crab was following before someone noticed the -20 rule.

It will attack you until it grabs you. It will then find someone else to attack until it grabs them. It attacks the nearest creature regardless. Once it has one in each hand, it will proceed under water.

Simple tactics, and reasonably effective: but not unreasonably effective.

The creature becomes a tough CR 3, instead of a tough CR 6. :)

CartesianDaemon
2007-12-05, 04:44 PM
Also:

* The closest characters will likely be the melee characters, having charged forward, who it'll go for first
* If the characters have a chance to retreat up a cliff, they're safe, and probably so if they leave a beach
* It's an animal, it'll probably retreat if it's hurt (half hp?)
* If they drive it off, dying characters can be healed.

But:

* It still has an insane attack. Two blows kill a fighter.
* It really does do *both* damages if it holds you.
* It might take three rounds for two ungrappled melee characters to take it to half hp. In two, it's probably made four successful attacks and one grapple, enough to kill them both.