Fighter class features

[paladinn]

Has anyone homebrewed a fighter alternative that has actual class features and not just a bunch of bonus feats?

Please share!

[pabelfly]

Have you checked out Pathfinder's version of Fighter?

[paladinn]

Have you checked out Pathfinder's version of Fighter?

Yes but it really just alternates the feats with armor or weapon training. Which could normally be feats anyway.

[pabelfly]

Yes but it really just alternates the feats with armor or weapon training. Which could normally be feats anyway.

What do you want out of homebrew Fighter? Like, if you want complexity and power, but not unreasonably so, use Tome Of Battle. If you just want stronger base numbers with minimal extra complexity then Pathfinder Fighter is probably where it's at - at least, with most variants. If you want something else, let us know so we can point you in the direction you're after.

[Biggus]

5E has some decent stuff as well. Personally I've taken Indomitable and Superior Critical* from 5e and Bravery and the "can move normal speed in armor" part of Armor Training from PF, changing the levels around so they end up with something every level. Mature artists steal and all that...

*I changed it so it's like a second Improved Critical which stacks with the normal one or keen (but they still don't stack with each other), allowing triple the normal threat range. I felt like Fighters ought to have something which was unique to them (dodgy 3.0 imports aside) and a reason to keep taking levels in the class.

[Thurbane]

There used to be a good one the WotC website, I'll see if I can find an archive link.

Here we go: https://web.archive.org/web/20150907003509/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2


Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Fizban]

I'd like to tell you to just search the Homebrew board, but the search function seems to get real busted when you're trying to do general searches like that. I know the archives exist, but without something specific enough it will spit pages of duplicate results and then stop. Still, there are a hefty number visible before it falls apart.

[Wildstag]

There used to be a good one the WotC website, I'll see if I can find an archive link.

Here we go: https://web.archive.org/web/20150907003509/http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2


Sorry, couldn't resist.

Top kek, friend.

But seriously, the "swap weapon specific feats out with a bit of practice" actually made those feats not so bad, while also making the Caddy-Fighter actually feel doable. Admittedly, it is a shame all the Intelligence related features are so niche, instead of just giving more blanket usefulness from that ability score.

Aside from that, I've always found the Armored Savant/Eldritch Grace/Bonded Armor/Eldritch Juggernaut chain to basically be good enough as features in their own right, especially when given freely instead of as a class feature.

[paladinn]

I haven't been a big fan of the Book of Nine Swords. I'm not really into wuxia movies. I'm not one who thinks the Warblade needs to be the generic fighter.

I don't think "complexity" or "extra crunchy" is what I want. Just something besides just getting a bunch of feats. 5e's fighter core isn't bad, but the Champion sucks. I did my own Champion-variant that was a merger with the Brute UA subclass that's really cool for a "generic" fighter. But 5e doesn't translate back to 3e that well.

If anyone has had success backporting the 5e fighter, I'd love to know what you did and how it went. And how the level/feature/feat progression. Or any other suggestions.

Thanks!

[pabelfly]

Aside from that, I've always found the Armored Savant/Eldritch Grace/Bonded Armor/Eldritch Juggernaut chain to basically be good enough as features in their own right, especially when given freely instead of as a class feature.

I haven't heard of this before, mind explaining what this is?


I don't think "complexity" or "extra crunchy" is what I want. Just something besides just getting a bunch of feats.

Maybe throw in scaling for the feats a Fighter would typically take, and the scaling is based on how many Fighter levels a character has. Like, instead of Weapon Focus giving a flat +1 to attack rolls, why not have it be +1 and +1 for every five fighter levels. Do something similar for Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Master, etc. That would keep a Fighter as a simple class, while giving an incentive to stay in the class and take levels.

[Elves]

Just delete the fighter class. It has no features or identity so there's no reason for it to exist.

The alternative is starting from the ground up and basically writing a whole new class. The reality is that at the moment there really IS no fighter class.

[paladinn]

Just delete the fighter class. It has no features or identity so there's no reason for it to exist.

The alternative is starting from the ground up and basically writing a whole new class. The reality is that at the moment there really IS no fighter class.

Thanks, but not helpful

[paladinn]

Maybe throw in scaling for the feats a Fighter would typically take, and the scaling is based on how many Fighter levels a character has. Like, instead of Weapon Focus giving a flat +1 to attack rolls, why not have it be +1 and +1 for every five fighter levels. Do something similar for Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Melee Weapon Master, etc. That would keep a Fighter as a simple class, while giving an incentive to stay in the class and take levels.

Hmm.. ponderable..

[Troacctid]

Here's mine. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616974-5e-classes-converted-to-3-5e&p=24648241#post24648241

[Kurald Galain]

Have you checked out Pathfinder's version of Fighter?

More specifically, its archetypes. There are PF fighter archetypes that gain e.g. a familiar, or wings, or hotswappable feats, or other actual class features.

[Wildstag]

I haven't heard of this before, mind explaining what this is?

The feat chain was a set of Alternate Class Features for Fighter in lieu of a feat. They were supernatural abilities for the fighter presented in Dragon #355. Honestly, I think they work well as standalone abilities, since honestly the fighter doesn't get much and these don't make the fighter anywhere close to powerful. Just slightly evens the playing field. I've always been partial to the archetype of "warrior has intimate bond with their armor", so it gelled well with me.

At 1st level, you could take Armored Savant, which allowed the fighter to ignore the weight of armor for the purpose of calculating encumbrance, and it slows as if it were one category lighter, so Medium Armor didn't slow and Heavy Armor slowed as if it were medium. Additionally, the maximum dexterity bonus was increased by 1 and the spell failure chance of armor was halved.

At 4th level, you could take Eldritch Grace, which gave evasion against spells and magical effects as long as you were encumbered or lightly encumbered (which was likely since you ignored armor weight if you took Armored Savant). Note that the evasion was only for magical effects and not mundane (such as traps).

At 8th level, you could take Bonded Armor, which involved a ritual that required 30 days of wearing armor for at least 8 hours and a 24-hour ritual worth 100 gp. The armor became a part of the fighter, such that donning/doffing it was a full-round action. Also, you got a +1 insight bonus to AC that increased by 1 at levels 14 and 20.

At 18th level, you could take Eldritch Juggernaut. Wearing medium/heavy armor grants spell resistance equal to 11 + HD. It's late, but it's better than nothing. It probably should have been available at, like, level twelve, since that's around when the cleric spell is available.

[Paragon]

My simple tweak to the fighter class is to let them change their class granted feat every morning with a preparation equivalent to either the martial classes from TOB or the wizards for spells.

That means they aren't locked in feat trees and get some versatility which is what this class lacks

[ShurikVch]

Not a homebrew - but how about the Special Abilities of Fighter variants from Dragon #310? You take them instead the usual Fighter's bonus feats - depending on the variant, there are from 2 to 6 Special Abilities available (except for Survivalist - it don't have any); also, every of the variants changes the list of available Fighter's bonus feats

[pabelfly]

Not a homebrew - but how about the Special Abilities of Fighter variants from Dragon #310? You take them instead the usual Fighter's bonus feats - depending on the variant, there are from 2 to 6 Special Abilities available (except for Survivalist - it don't have any); also, every of the variants changes the list of available Fighter's bonus feats

There are some fun Fighter variants in that. I'm really fond of Kensai, Exoticist and Targetteer. I'd let any regular Fighter feat apply instead of their limited lists though.

[paladinn]

Here's mine. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616974-5e-classes-converted-to-3-5e&p=24648241#post24648241

Thanks! Definitely a place to start

I notice the fighter ends up with only 2 bonus feats. I don't think I want to lose that many feats, but it's good to have the other features. Extra attacks are already built into the progression, so those are slots I can use for bonus feats. Is Indomitable worth having in lieu of a feat? I've read mixed reactions on 5e forums. I'm also not a huge fan of Remarkable Athlete.

I wonder if 2nd Wind and Action Surge are too much for 3e?

Would there be a problem with using Fighting Style in lieu of the 1st level bonus feat? I kind of like that setting the general direction for a fighter.

Thanks again for the input!

[StSword]

Oh if you are open to pathfinder stuff, I have a few things you might want to look at.

The Legendary Fighter (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Fighter_(Legendary)) has some more bulk to it than the standard PF fighter. You can check it out from that link in a wiki, see if it's something you'd care to buy.

The Talented Fighter (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/112812/The-Genius-Guide-to-the-Talented-Fighter) as the name suggests gives fighters access to talents. Drivethru has a preview so you can check it out without buying.

fighter Unbound (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/172388/The-Fighter-Unbound?filters=100193_0_0_0_0) and The Fighting Man (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/183233/The-Fighting-Man-A-Required-Rebuild-for-the-Fighter?filters=100193_0_0_0_0) have a similar set up, adding a range of talents to buy.

Now is the issue with Fighters only getting feats the issue of only getting feats, or the feats themselves being rather lackluster? Because some books have sought to improve fighters by giving them more impressive feats to choose from- Book of Experimental Might, Book of Iron Might, Nice Things for Fighters.

[ViperMagnum357]

You can mix and match ACFs and the like to create something workable, if mediocre. Start with the Kensai variant from DMG 310: basically you give up medium/heavy armor and trade your level 1 bonus feat for an exotic proficiency and +1 attack and damage rolls with your chosen weapon, icreased to +2 at Fighter 5 and +1 every five levels thereafter-at least you get something that scales. Then dive deep into the splats: drow fighter (note the infamous loophole where you do not have to be drow), Zhentarim Soldier, and spice up your build with whatever other ACFs you want. Take the Fighter only feats like mastery, specialization, and supremacy so your attack are reliable and really hurt, and decide between critfishing and a charger build. I found Spiked Chain and Spinning Swords seem to work best mechanically.

Apart from that, you are looking at other classes or homebrew.

[Thurbane]

I know it's only a small part of the preceived issues with Fighter, but I've been tinkering for a skill fix for Fighters in my game for some time: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?232184-3-5-Fighter-skill-fix

I've adjusted that list a few times, so here's my current list (and Fighters get 4 skill points/level):


Appraise
Balance
Bluff
Climb
Craft
Gather Information
Handle Animal
Iaijutsu Focus
Intimidate
Jump
Knowledge (architecture & engineering)
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (local)
Listen
Martial Lore
Perform
Profession
Ride
Sense Motive
Spot
Swim

[Troacctid]

Thanks! Definitely a place to start

I notice the fighter ends up with only 2 bonus feats. I don't think I want to lose that many feats, but it's good to have the other features.
You can take a bonus feat in place of the ability score improvements.


Extra attacks are already built into the progression, so those are slots I can use for bonus feats.
Well, remember, the extra attacks are in addition to your other attacks.


Is Indomitable worth having in lieu of a feat? I've read mixed reactions on 5e forums. I'm also not a huge fan of Remarkable Athlete.
In 5e, Remarkable Athlete is mainly great for the initiative bonus. In this edition, it also works great with things like tripping. Indomitable is fine.


Would there be a problem with using Fighting Style in lieu of the 1st level bonus feat? I kind of like that setting the general direction for a fighter.
The 1st level bonus feat is meant to represent your chosen fighting style.

[Darg]

the "can move normal speed in armor" part of Armor Training from PF

There's a 2,000gp slotless item in ToM that lets you move at normal speed in any medium/heavy armor.

[Thurbane]

I also once pondered tristalting Fighter, Knight and Marshal into once class, to see if the end result was a solid class: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?542297-3-5-Tristalt-Fighter-Knight-Marshal-What-Tier

[Biggus]

There's a 2,000gp slotless item in ToM that lets you move at normal speed in any medium/heavy armor.

There's only one of them in existence and the secret of making more is lost, so you're entirely dependent on the DM deciding to let you have it. And that's before we get into what happens if there are two or more PCs who wear medium or heavy armour...

[rel]

My homebrew Adventurer class might fit the bill. Probably needs more specialisations though...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bvCZH3azorD2NidSWV3jJ_7tSxPWhEi1nN6iIEj7iMg/edit?usp=sharing

[paladinn]

My homebrew Adventurer class might fit the bill. Probably needs more specialisations though...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bvCZH3azorD2NidSWV3jJ_7tSxPWhEi1nN6iIEj7iMg/edit?usp=sharing

wow that's extensive.. Thanks!

[DaytimeStar]

Apart from the standard PF, there's also PF 3.5 before the two companies stop working together.
And the fighter ACF from PF 3.5 campaign setting is also worth considering.

Golarion fighter: trade the 1st fighter feat for a broader list of class skills and 4+int skill points per level.
The ACF background simply implies that this type of fighter trained at a famous war college or fighting school, so it should be easy to adapt.

[paladinn]

Apart from the standard PF, there's also PF 3.5 before the two companies stop working together.
And the fighter ACF from PF 3.5 campaign setting is also worth considering.

Golarion fighter: trade the 1st fighter feat for a broader list of class skills and 4+int skill points per level.
The ACF background simply implies that this type of fighter trained at a famous war college or fighting school, so it should be easy to adapt.

Pathfinder 3.5? Is that a thing? This is honestly the first I've heard of it.

Where can I learn more?

[Thurbane]

Pathfinder 3.5? Is that a thing? This is honestly the first I've heard of it.

Where can I learn more?

Before Paizo launched their own game/system (i.e. pre 2009 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_Roleplaying_Game)), they published 3rd party 3.5 D&D material, under the "Pathfinder" campaign setting (among others).

[Darg]

There's only one of them in existence and the secret of making more is lost, so you're entirely dependent on the DM deciding to let you have it. And that's before we get into what happens if there are two or more PCs who wear medium or heavy armour...

True. I just brought it up as a reference.

[paladinn]

Before Paizo launched their own game/system (i.e. pre 2009 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathfinder_Roleplaying_Game)), they published 3rd party 3.5 D&D material, under the "Pathfinder" campaign setting (among others).

Ahh got it

[Hurnn]

Has anyone homebrewed a fighter alternative that has actual class features and not just a bunch of bonus feats?

Please share!

Gave them 12d hp 2/1/0 save progression 8+ int skills per level and Initiator levels: can choose up to 3 school; Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven, and all the dead level stuff from WoTC web article

[Biggus]

True. I just brought it up as a reference.

Ah fair enough, I thought you meant that giving fighters armor mobility is near-worthless. Obviously there are other ways to get a similar effect (like mithral armor) but none that I know of which are as cheap and powerful as the tooth.

[Thurbane]

Something people often overlook with the tooth: it automatically enters you into a poor pact with the vestige involved, so there are some drawbacks.

[paladinn]

Gave them 12d hp 2/1/0 save progression 8+ int skills per level and Initiator levels: can choose up to 3 school; Devoted Spirit, Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, White Raven, and all the dead level stuff from WoTC web article

Forgive my ignorance.. I'm not sure what Initiator is.

All I want is a more viable fighter class that isn't all feats. Not really interested in a PrC or a Wuxia/Bo9S character.

[Thurbane]

That's the second time you've mentioned Wuxia...have you actually looked at ToB, or are you going on word of mouth? Because one of the early (and largely, IMHO, unfounded) critiques of the book was that it is too "anime" or too "Wuxia".

I actually allowed this to put me off the book for a while, but once I actually looked into it, I found it to be really great resource, and those critiques didn't particularly capture the sense of the book or its mechanics.

[StSword]

Forgive my ignorance.. I'm not sure what Initiator is.

All I want is a more viable fighter class that isn't all feats. Not really interested in a PrC or a Wuxia/Bo9S character.

Initiator is the term for someone who uses Path of War, the pathfinder spiritual successor to book of nine swords, largely seen as an improvement.

Which if that's not your thing, than so be it.

Although if you were interested in spicing up martials you might want to look at Spheres of Might (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) or the Book of Martial Action 1 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110453/A-Necromancers-Grimoire-The-Book-of-Martial-Action) and 2 (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/128356/A-Necromancers-Grimoire-The-Book-of-Martial-Action-II?term=book+of+martial+action+&manufacturers_id=3401) systems, you might like those systems better.

But only tangently related to the topic of this discussion, since while those systems could be used to improve the Fighter, you've already expressed that's not how you are looking to improve the Fighter for the discussion of this thread.

[Biggus]

That's the second time you've mentioned Wuxia...have you actually looked at ToB, or are you going on word of mouth? Because one of the early (and largely, IMHO, unfounded) critiques of the book was that it is too "anime" or too "Wuxia".


I have tried to read it several times and was put off by exactly that (among other things). YMMV. I know most people on here love it though so I'm going to give it another go at some point.

[ngilop]

Has anyone homebrewed a fighter alternative that has actual class features and not just a bunch of bonus feats?

Please share!

There are dozens of fighter fixes just on GiTp alone that give actual class features

Off the top of my head there is
Jiriku's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?194834-3-5-Fighter-Remix-Doin-it-old-school)
Grod The Giant's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?242782-The-Legend-(sort-of-a-fighter-fix-sort-of-a-warlock-3-5-PEACH-WIP))
Zeigander's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?208356-Action-Hero-(Fighter-Class-Fix)-D-amp-D-3-5&p=11468240#post11468240)
Zeig+Grod combo (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!)
My Own (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?318268-My-Latest-big-project!-(-a-big-deal-fighter-fix)) (also a PF version (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?568764-Pathfinder-Fighter-Re-Tool))
And Lemmy's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?241661-PF-Fighter-Revision-PEACH-(We-Can-Never-Have-Enough-of-Those!))

[rel]

wow that's extensive.. Thanks!

It was designed to be a tier 1 class without spellcasting. I don't think it even matches a PHB only wizard, cleric or druid in terms of sheer versatility and potential power, but it gets closer than anything else I've seen.

Like the wizard, you have something mechanically relevant to do during downtime; track down new feats. And While you don't have the utility of spellcasting, you can at least answer the spell casters digging through the spell list looking for a solution with a dive into the feats.
It isn't the magic users long laundry list of cosmic power, but at least you can contribute when the challenge isn't some variant on remove X HP from thing Y.

I was never happy with the specialisations system and abandoned the project in its mostly complete state years ago, hopefully you'll find something you can use in there.

[lylsyly]

One of the folks at our table has a simple take on a fighter upgrade when he DMs (if he's not running a gestalt game already). Simply just gestalt PHB Fighter with DMG NPC Adept & Expert both. D10 HD, Full BAB, Good Fort and Will, 6 Skill Points with a highly customizable class skill list, 5th level prepared divine casting with a weak list.

[ngilop]

One of the folks at our table has a simple take on a fighter upgrade when he DMs (if he's not running a gestalt game already). Simply just gestalt PHB Fighter with DMG NPC Adept & Expert both. D10 HD, Full BAB, Good Fort and Will, 6 Skill Points with a highly customizable class skill list, 5th level prepared divine casting with a weak list.

Yeah that is a common idea, though the gestalts i have seen have been marshal, knight, swashbuckler, and barbarian.

Another fighter fix with class features that I have done is the Warrior (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=16526029&postcount=2) NPC class for my campaign world.

which is literally the PhB Fighter with 7 class features and more skills and skill points. It is a very basic and simple fix that doesn;t really blow the power of the fighter out into the stratosphere, but gives them soem nice quality of life changes

[Darg]

I have tried to read it several times and was put off by exactly that (among other things). YMMV. I know most people on here love it though so I'm going to give it another go at some point.

There are plenty of spells, psionic powers, and abilities that do the same things. The difference is that ToB basically consolidates those concepts into usable form for characters that want to focus on that that concept. Is it anime/wuxia like? Yes, but people need to realize that 3.5 D&D is above human scale once you get to level 2. The player's real life humanity becomes further and further away as their character gains level after level.

[lylsyly]

Over the years we have done other things too. fighter//ranger minus the combat style, fighter//rogue minus sneak attack, fighter//barbarian minus rage. Our play style affects a lot of what we do and the biggest hit against a fighter for us is nothing to do outside of combat.

There are only 4 sources hard banned for us and ToB is one of them so we've had to juice up melee types on oour own.

[NichG]

Well, let me give it a shot...


BAB +1, Fort/Reflex/Will: Good, Good, Bad, Skills: 5+Int*

*: The Fighter gains the ability to merge certain skills. Otherwise, they gain standard Fighter class skills + Diplomacy and Sense Motive

1: Weapon Proficiency, Armor proficiency, Prowess pool (= Fighter level), Sure Strike (spend 1 Prowess to take 10 on an attack roll, Prowess refreshes after 10 minutes)
2: Athletic Cross-Training (merge Climb, Jump, Swim into a single skill Athletics, refund excess skill points above cap; anything boosting the original skills boosts Athletics instead)
3: Exotic weapon proficiency, Judge Opponent (swift action Sense Motive to determine enemy's HD, classes, and feats, DC = 10+enemy Bluff)
4: Weapon generalist (all feats that require specifying a weapon type apply to any valid weapon for that feat that the character has proficiency in)
5: Keen Strike (spend 2 Prowess to threaten a critical hit regardless of attack roll - still need to hit AC and confirm)
6: Honor: Trial by Duel (in friendly or neutral societies, the Fighter may request a solo fight against an opponent in the range CR to CR+4 in lieu of a court trial when accused of a crime)
7: Heavy March - the Fighter ignores ACP on Athletics checks.
8: Penetrating Strike (spend 2 Prowess to make an attack ignore DR and Resistances)
9: Weapon Trick**
10: Honor: Squire (in friendly or neutral societies, the Fighter can always find a local character within any military or governmental organization up to their level-4 willing to aid them in their endeavors, as far as law permits)
11: Certain Strike (spend 4 Prowess to guarantee a hit with an attack, ignoring AC and miss chance but not e.g. immediate reaction dodges)
12: Scale the Gigantic - the Fighter may treat any creature of size Huge and above as walkable terrain. Balance becomes merged with Athletics.
13: Honor: Conquest (when publicly defeating the leader of a group or organization without direct assistance, up to 2^Lv members of the organization will become loyal to the Fighter, excluding direct lieutenants or relations of the defeated leader)
14: Shrug it off (spend 4 Prowess to automatically succeed on a single saving throw)
15: Greater Weapon Trick
16: Traversal - the Fighter may make an Athletics check as a Swift action while moving to traverse space that would normally require a movement modality the Fighter does not possess. The DC is 1 per five feet of water, 1 per foot of open air, or 10 per foot of solid material. Transplanar traversal adds +30 to the DC and is limited to coterminous permeable planes (e.g. near Ethereal).
17: Honor: Legend (the character and their deeds are automatically known to supernatural movers and shakers - deities, demon lords, etc)
18: Avoidance (spend 3 Prowess as an immediate action to automatically avoid an attack or targeted effect)
19: Attachment (the Fighter can spend 1 Prowess as an immediate action to move alongside any creature they threaten that changes position, including teleports - this applies to the entirety of the target's movement that round)
20: Honor: Death (even after the Fighter has been slain by an effect or by damage, they have a 50% chance each round to continue acting normally. This does not apply if the Fighter is knocked out without being killed)

**: Weapon tricks are special moves the Fighter can perform when wielding a specific type of weapon.

Sword (longsword, greatsword, bastard sword, etc): Parry (as a nonaction spend 1 Prowess to gain +2AC against an attack, if the attack misses gain 2 Prowess). Greater - spend 1 extra Prowess to disarm an enemy on a successful parry.

Axe (handaxe, greataxe, etc): Maim (on a hit, spend 1 Prowess to inflict either -10ft movement or -5 to hit until DC 20 Heal check or healing equal to damage dealt received). Greater - on a crit, spend 1 Prowess to sever a limb, makes the penalty require Regenerate or equivalent to remove.

Spear (longspear, halberd, glaive, ...): Halt (spend 1 Prowess as an immediate action to take an attack on someone entering threatened area, stops movement and regen 2 Prowess on hit). Greater - spend extra 1 Prowess on hit to deny the target their move action next round.

Club/Mace/Staff: Stagger (spend 1 Prowess when attacking to drop target's initiative by damage dealt on a hit). Greater - if this lowers the target to 25+ worse than the next lowest count, they wrap around to the top of the next round+1 and the Fighter regenerates 2 Prowess.

Rapier: Flourish (gain 1 Prowess when confirming a critical hit). Greater - Riposte, spend 2 Prowess as a nonaction when attacked to gain a free attack against the target; if this hits, negate their attack and deal damage.

Dagger: Bleed (spend 1 Prowess when attacking; if you hit, the rolled weapon damage reoccurs each round for 10 rounds or unless a DC 15 Heal check or other healing received). Greater - spend an extra 2 Prowess to deal weapon damage to Con if you hit.

Shield: Redirect - spend 1 Prowess when attacked in melee, if the attack misses redirect it to another target within the attacker's range with the same roll. Regen 2 Prowess if it hits. Greater - this also applies to ranged attacks and ranged attack rolls including spells.

Bow (crossbow, shortbow, longbow, ...): Suppress (swift action and 1 Prowess to mark 4 5ft squares in line of sight such that the character gets free attacks+reload at +5 against all creatures entering those squares until the next round, and regens 1 Prowess per successful hit). Greater - the marked squares need not have a direct line of fire - treat as an emanation with range of the weapon.

Thrown: Overhand (spend 1 Prowess to multiply range increment by 10). Greater - when using Overhand, can bounce the throw off of up to two surfaces.

Unarmed: Grab (spend 1 Prowess when attacking, if your attack hits you can initiate a grapple). Greater - spend an extra Prowess when successfully grappling to immediately roll again to advance to Pin.

[paladinn]

Looking at things to possibly back-port from 5e. Improved, Superior and Devastating Critical are good, but are they just feats that a fighter could gain anyway?

One thing I definitely want to grab.. In 5e, fighters get 2 more ASI's than other classes. I want to use that for 3e, but limited to physical stats (Str, Dex, Con)

[Anthrowhale]

The Generic Warrior (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) class is a straightforward improvement on the Fighter. You choose any 6 class skills and any 11 feats including from a menu of bonus class-abilities-as-feats.

Fighter is also a class for which there are a large number of variants / ACFs / substitution levels. Mastering those is nontrivial, but they together form at least a good basis for a dip or entry into a prestige class. For example, there are social fighters (i.e. Commander, Bodyguard), sneaky fighter (Survivalist), striker fighters (Sneak attack fighter), and of course Exotic Weapon fighters (Exoticist).

For example, a Sneak Attack Fighter with Double Team, Craven, and Wild Cohort (trained to also have Double Team) is a fairly potent combatant dealing 10d6+20 (~=55) sneak attack / hit.

[paladinn]

The Generic Warrior (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#warrior) class is a straightforward improvement on the Fighter. You choose any 6 class skills and any 11 feats including from a menu of bonus class-abilities-as-feats.

Fighter is also a class for which there are a large number of variants / ACFs / substitution levels. Mastering those is nontrivial, but they together form at least a good basis for a dip or entry into a prestige class. For example, there are social fighters (i.e. Commander, Bodyguard), sneaky fighter (Survivalist), striker fighters (Sneak attack fighter), and of course Exotic Weapon fighters (Exoticist).

For example, a Sneak Attack Fighter with Double Team, Craven, and Wild Cohort (trained to also have Double Team) is a fairly potent combatant dealing 10d6+20 (~=55) sneak attack / hit.

I'm familiar, but the perception is that the generic classes are lacking in comparison to the core classes. How/is the warrior lacking compared to the fighter?

[Remuko]

Initiator is the term for someone who uses Path of War, the pathfinder spiritual successor to book of nine swords, largely seen as an improvement.

Initiator is also the term used for Martial Adepts in Tome of Battle too.

[Darg]

I'm familiar, but the perception is that the generic classes are lacking in comparison to the core classes. How/is the warrior lacking compared to the fighter?

I wouldn't say that generic classes are lacking per se, just that they are generally lesser for their versatility. A fighter has access to fighter feats and has heavy armor/tower shield proficiency at level 1. A barbarian gets rage and fast movement at level 1. A paladin gets full BAB and spellcasting along with other special abilities.

Likewise, spellcaster can learn spells from the wizard, cleric, or druid spell lists, but casts as a sorcerer with fewer casts per day.

[Anthrowhale]

I'm familiar, but the perception is that the generic classes are lacking in comparison to the core classes. How/is the warrior lacking compared to the fighter?

The generic warrior is basically all upside compared to a fighter.

At level 1 they lose out on tower shields (some value) and heavy armor that you can't afford anyways. In return, they get (for example) Iajutsu Focus, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, Handle Animal, and Spot as class skills while picking up 2d6 sneak attack (which _really_ matters at level 1).

By level 20 you don't really care about heavy armor because mithril full plate is better anyways. You might also have 9d6 sneak attack, Evasion, Craven, Combat Reflexes, Double Team, Wild Cohort, Darkstalker, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Smite Evil + 7 more non-class feats from hit dice. You can sneak in and open up combat with a full BAB 9d6+20(sneak attack) + 5d6 (Iajutsu Focus) + 20 (smite) + 2d6 (weapon) dealing >100/hit with only modest magic.

[StSword]

Oh while it isn't straight 3rd edition but it's d20 and free, one might want to check out Radiance RPG (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/105102/Radiance-Players-Guide-A-Complete-Roleplaying-Game-in-the-Age-of-Electrotech)- some of the fighter talents are based on feats, some are not.

[paladinn]

So given the nearly-universal opinion that baseline fighters are pretty lame, I'm opting to let them stay the feat-masters that they have been. But I'm also adding/replacing a few class features that will hopefully buff them without adding excess complexity:

1. The fighter still gets bonus feats at L1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 12, 16, 18 and 20

2. Like the 5e fighter, fighters get bonus ASI's at L6 and 14. These are limited to Str, Dex or Con. Currently those replace 2 feats; should they instead be in addition?

3. I'm adapting the 2nd Wind feature from 5e. At L5, once per day, a fighter can regain 1d10+fighter level in hp. This can be done twice per day at L13 and 3 times per day at L19.

4. At L7, a fighter can crit on a roll of 19-20. At L11, the chance is 18-20. At L17, the chance is 17-20.

Any thoughts?

[JNAProductions]

So given the nearly-universal opinion that baseline fighters are pretty lame, I'm opting to let them stay the feat-masters that they have been. But I'm also adding/replacing a few class features that will hopefully buff them without adding excess complexity:

1. The fighter still gets bonus feats at L1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 12, 16, 18 and 20

2. Like the 5e fighter, fighters get bonus ASI's at L6 and 14. These are limited to Str, Dex or Con. Currently those replace 2 feats; should they instead be in addition?

3. I'm adapting the 2nd Wind feature from 5e. At L5, once per day, a fighter can regain 1d10+fighter level in hp. This can be done twice per day at L13 and 3 times per day at L19.

4. At L7, a fighter can crit on a roll of 19-20. At L11, the chance is 18-20. At L17, the chance is 17-20.

Any thoughts?

1) Unchanged.
2) +1 to a single physical stat at level 6 and level 14 is... I mean, nice, but also pretty minor.
3) Again, it's a nice lil' boost, but it's pretty damn minor. If it can be done as an immediate action, it might be a worthwhile feature? But as any other kind of action, it's just saving money on heals.
4) Weapons already have differing crit ranges. How does this interact with any weapon that crits on a 19 or 18 baseline?

[pabelfly]

So given the nearly-universal opinion that baseline fighters are pretty lame, I'm opting to let them stay the feat-masters that they have been. But I'm also adding/replacing a few class features that will hopefully buff them without adding excess complexity:

1. The fighter still gets bonus feats at L1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 12, 16, 18 and 20

2. Like the 5e fighter, fighters get bonus ASI's at L6 and 14. These are limited to Str, Dex or Con. Currently those replace 2 feats; should they instead be in addition?

3. I'm adapting the 2nd Wind feature from 5e. At L5, once per day, a fighter can regain 1d10+fighter level in hp. This can be done twice per day at L13 and 3 times per day at L19.

4. At L7, a fighter can crit on a roll of 19-20. At L11, the chance is 18-20. At L17, the chance is 17-20.

Any thoughts?

2) I would do it in addition. I would also not limit the choice of stat, INT and WIS are not terrible options if you're on an odd stat. It's also worth considering changing when these occur so you're filling in more odd fighter levels with worthwhile stat pickups
4) I would change this because crit roll ranges of weapons can vary greatly, and you can get 18-20 crit range on a weapon without a single level in Fighter. Perhaps increasing a weapon's crit range by 1 (or doubling it) or increasing threat multiplier instead.

I would also make the following suggestions:
Armor training from Pathfinder Fighter. Let Fighters move around in medium and heavy armor with reduced or no penalty.

Kensai Fighter from Dragon #310 lets you trade your first-level feat for a free weapon proficiency (including exotic weapons) and with that weapon, +1 to attack and damage rolls, and gives a scaling bonus +1/+1 for every five Fighter levels you have. The attack roll boost helps any fighter and the damage boost is especially helpful for volley archers and TWF builds. I'd consider a similar trade for any Fighter rework.

Edit: As pointed out, the changes are fairly minor for Fighter. If that's all you want that's fine, but you haven't really fundamentally changed anything about how the fighter compares to Tome of Battle characters, martials with scaling abiltiies like Totemist or Psychic Warrior, etc, or casters.

[rel]

It's hard to evaluate the proposed changes if I don't know the goals.

What do you see as the fighter classes shortcomings?
How strong do you want the class to be?
What makes the class boring to you?

[lylsyly]

So given the nearly-universal opinion that baseline fighters are pretty lame, I'm opting to let them stay the feat-masters that they have been. But I'm also adding/replacing a few class features that will hopefully buff them without adding excess complexity:

1. The fighter still gets bonus feats at L1, 2, 4, 8, 10, 12, 16, 18 and 20

2. Like the 5e fighter, fighters get bonus ASI's at L6 and 14. These are limited to Str, Dex or Con. Currently those replace 2 feats; should they instead be in addition?

3. I'm adapting the 2nd Wind feature from 5e. At L5, once per day, a fighter can regain 1d10+fighter level in hp. This can be done twice per day at L13 and 3 times per day at L19.

4. At L7, a fighter can crit on a roll of 19-20. At L11, the chance is 18-20. At L17, the chance is 17-20.

Any thoughts?

1. Leave the bonus feats as is with the exception of maybe allowing them to take ANY feat they meet prereqs for. If you are going to add stuff add it at the dead levels.

2. see 1 above, add them at dead levels and don't limit which stat they can be used on, also, +2 would not be a bad thing.

3. Definately shoud be as an immediate action.

4. Perhaps rephrase this to adds +1 to the crit range of any wielded weapon at L7 with an additional +1 at levels 11 & 17.

Maybe you should look at giving fighters something to do out of combat as well. Fighter has 9 dead levels, you have used 8 IF you place everything in a dead level.

[Arkain]

Yes but it really just alternates the feats with armor or weapon training. Which could normally be feats anyway.

Besides the PF archetypes (e.g. Mutation Warrior adding an alchemy aspect via mutagen), there is also a bit more to the training features. Though it's technically feats again, the advanced options allow for quite a bit of customization, most combat oriented, but some also go into the direction of, say, handing out skills. There is also a build called Iron Caster using the Item Mastery category of Advanced Weapon Training to be flexible about gaining spells for a short while. Maybe this is something you may be interested in?

[Thurbane]

There's few class features I've considered porting over from other classes onto Fighter, that feel appropriate:

Weapon Aptitude (Warblade): meditate so that any weapon specific feats can be changed to a different weapon.
Armor Mastery (medium/heavy) (Knight): ignore movement penalties from medium and heavy armor.
Armored Ease (Dread Commando/Knight of the Flying Hunt): reduce ACP by a certain number.
Mettle (various): like Evasion, but for Fort and Will saves.

And also one of my own:

Fighting Edge (Ex): a scaling bonus, that the Fighter applies to bull rush, disarm, grapple, sunder, and trip attempt rolls. Also applies as a bonus on saves vs. fear effects. Additionally, this number is deducted from the penalty to attack when using improvised weapons, exotic weapons you are not proficient with, and the attack penalty imposed by a tower shield (to a minimum of 0, of course).

[Rynjin]

Yes but it really just alternates the feats with armor or weapon training. Which could normally be feats anyway.

Near the end of Pathfinder's lifespan they released the Weapon master's Handbook and Armor Master's Handbook which actually gave them more class features. You can essentially trade a single advancement of Weapon Training or Armor Training for some pretty hefty class features.

Highlights include:

DR 3/- in heavy armor (that stacks with Adamantine)
Skill of choice that is always equal to BaB and class skill bonus
Steel Headbutt, weirdly one of the most mechanically unique attack features in the game. Essentially an explicitly Manufacture Weapon attack that nevertheless functions similarly to a Natural Attack.
Add Bravery bonus to all Will saves
Treating one-handed weapons as light for TWFing
A straight up superior version of the Paladin's Divine Bond feature to enhance their weapon (this is probably the biggest one)

Additionally, many of the Weapon Mastery and Armor Mastery Feats are ASTOUNDINGLY powerful, with one of the standouts being Cut From the Air and its successor Feat Smash From the Air, the latter of which allows for spell parrying as an attack of opportunity, up to the full limit of your AoOs.

While the various Mastery Feats are technically available to any character, Fighters have a much easier time qualifying for them, as they list Fighter class features as a soft prerequisite (which can be bypassed with purchase of a Feat).

For 3pp, I've extensively played with Lemmy's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?241661-PF-Fighter-Revision-PEACH-(We-Can-Never-Have-Enough-of-Those!)) in games he's run. It's solid, though a few options are a bit OP. Primarily Battle Dynamo, which basically just turns your character into an unkillable blender that can't be stopped.

[paladinn]

I hope a year doesn't qualify as thread necro. But casting Raise Thread just in case :)

So pondering a variant fighter class. I want to integrate some actual class features and not just have the fighter as a collection of feats. So looking as fighter renditions both before and after 3e, here are some features I'm considering:

1. Combat Dominance, aka the "mook rule" - This has been a little-known fighter feature ever since OD&D (or even Chainmail). A fighter facing a mob of mooks (1 HD or less, depending on rendition) can attack a number of times equal his/her fighter level. It's sort of a low-level-but-unlimited version of Cleave. In C&C this has been called "Combat Dominance." I've adapted to allow this for foes up to half the fighter's HD, for that same number of attacks.

2. Fighting Style - from 5e, but actually started in 2e. A bit more than just a +1 Weapon Focus or Specialization bonus.

3. Weapon Training and/or Armor Training - from PF1. Not sure I'd want several iterations of Armor Training; but Weapon Training is like a Weapon Focus and Specialization in one.

I don't want to replace All of the 3e fighter bonus feat slots; I do like the fighter's flexibility. But maybe have the Style and Dominance at L1 or 2, and alternate Weapon Training with a misc feat?

Thoughts?