Relative Durability of Classes at Tier 1

[Dork_Forge]

So this was prompted by this exchange in another thread:





How are you doing all that when you've burned your only 2 slots on defense (shield and silvery barbs, which still doesn't mean you didn't get hit)?

At level 1, getting to almost as durable as a monk costs your all your slots, and only works part of the time. Leaving you with crap for damage and no utility.

"Almost as durable"? Monk literally has 2 HP more than a Wizard and is melee with at most equal AC. If you avoid a single hit due to being ranged or using a single resource, you'll already have way surpassed the Monk, with two you're closer to Barbarian or Fighter.

And made me wonder what everyone's opinion on this kind of topic is, so some framing:

We're looking at the relative (to each other) durability of the 13 classes across Tier 1, please note I'm saying across Tier 1, so don't focus on 4th level or something when making your arguments.

For spellcasters: please also note that if your argument hinges on reliance of defensive spells, either add a disclaimer of its impact on your team contribution or it will likely be pointed out continually that the spells will be used in like two rounds and then that durability is gone, along with party contribution.

So! What does everyone's rankings look like?

Edit: Please use Point Buy or Standard Array for stat considerations and stats you'd actually play, not cranking Con on everything just because you can. In reality, no not everyone has proper incentive and desire to burn their stats on a 16 Con.

[J-H]

I will assume access to appropriate mundane gear (shields, heavy armor).

More Durable
Barbarian obvious
Cleric thanks to self-sustaining from healing, shields, often heavy armor proficiency
Fighter Often best AC
Paladin Heavy armor and sustain

Less Durable
Bard no major defensive features or proficiencies
Monk too squishy, not enough ki for dodging enough to make a difference
Ranger AC not high, few healing resources
Rogue AC not high, no self healing, no Uncanny Dodge yet
Sorcerer Best bet is AC 13+dex + Shield spell. Limited spells known make this riskier than with a Wizard.
Warlock Requires specific building to avoid being a squishy caster.

It Depends
Artficer Subclass dependent. Tends towards more durable with pet, healing gun, potions, armorer, etc.
Wizard Subclass dependent, War Wizard and Abjurer. Otherwise Less Durable.
Druid AC a bit low, but self-healing and shapeshifting or summoning allies. Subclass dependent.

[Willie the Duck]

I would suggest also adding some disclaimer about stats -- such as assuming PB or array (or specifying when not, since yes the balance changes when you roll stats), and maybe something like 'and stat-placement where you'd actually place them for characters you intend to play for levels 1-10 or more' or the like.

Anyways, I don't have a complete ranking, but here goes with some highlights:
Fighter and barbarian vie for the most durability at low levels.

Regarding Barbarians:Rage cuts massively into effective damage taken, and the general abundance of regular-weapon damage at low levels means this is true for all brands of barbarian. Strictly speaking, if you can keep your rage up (something you had better learn to do if playing a barbarian, and since you only have one attack anyways, the 1 javelin/round limit for the occasionally needed ranged attack is not a huge burden yet), you may well be the most durable (one small contra-influence is your heightened likelihood of being a shield-less melee character).
Regarding Fighters: Second wind, while poor in scaling, has a huge impact for fighters (at 1st level a 14 Con fighter with a bonus action to spare at some point in the combat will average 18.5 hp before going down). Also, the fighting style option of defensive can be big, and you are more likely to be sword and board at this level than 2-hander (since you likely won't have the feats which really set up that playstyle for you).


Paladins are durable, but with a hint of fragility. I mean this in that they get their fighting style at L2 (and if we are talking all of tier 1, that's 1/5th of the total with a deficit), and some of their increased durability comes from their spells (and paladins' Lay on Hands). The spells also come online at L2, plus most of the defensive ones (Shield of Faith mostly being a notable exception) take up a full action that a primary combat character is loath to give up (and oftentimes the not-ending-the-fight-sooner quality will eat into the benefit of the spell cast).

Clerics are complex -- other than likely starting with 16 (18 with shield) AC, they don't have any specific defensive benefits from their class, but they have a bunch of good defensive and healing spells, and unlike paladins/rangers, probably will be willing to spend a round casting them (although unless they are a melee-centric cleric, they will usually cast them on someone else).

Druids -- Look, we don't have to go over the whole metal armor thing again, so let's please not (also we all know that some DMs let you turn into any animals, others say you have to have travelled in Chult or the like before getting dinosaurs). After that, it's going to depend on circle quite a bit -- that would be 2nd level, so 1st is all about them as-is, which is mostly a bard/rogue-esque 14-16 starting AC. If you choose Moon Druid, you have a combat form which lean on the 'low AC, middling to fair damage, but a bunch of free hp' end of combat spectrum. If you don't choose Moon, you are likely a second-rank combatant -- middling AC and HP and few spells where you benefit from being toe-to-toe with the enemy. Perhaps most notably, the Druid Mage Armor equivalent -- Barkskin -- is terrible. Seriously, this could have been a class feature (say druids get monk or barbarin-like unarmored AC) or a spell identical to Mage Armor except some minor quirk (perhaps still fixed at 16, but otherwise like MA), or anything other than what we got.

Bards can be somewhat durable -- at level 3 and above (by picking valor). Even then, they are durable in the 'I can readily get an 18-20 AC' level, which is nice and all, but hardly makes you top tier in the category.

Monks are situationally durable at tier 1 -- at level 2-5 they can (2-5 times/SR, if they dedicate all their ki to the endeavor) jump into a fray and do something, and then give all their opposition disadvantage on reprisal. That's not nothing (and I would argue a fair bit better than a wizard, although at L3+ the wizard might be able to do the same thing and then misty step behind the party frontline or the like), but it's also not massively wonderful. If you do rolled stats and get 2-3 pretty decent ones (such that you can have Wis+Dex mod totals of 7+ without sinking your Con), this can change the situation significantly.

Rogues can do things and then get out of Dodge. They are durable in that people who play them won't be putting them in harm's way much, and they have class benefits which help facilitate this.

[Selion]

I will assume access to appropriate mundane gear (shields, heavy armor).

More Durable
Barbarian obvious
Cleric thanks to self-sustaining from healing, shields, often heavy armor proficiency
Fighter Often best AC
Paladin Heavy armor and sustain

Less Durable
Bard no major defensive features or proficiencies
Monk too squishy, not enough ki for dodging enough to make a difference
Ranger AC not high, few healing resources
Rogue AC not high, no self healing, no Uncanny Dodge yet
Sorcerer Best bet is AC 13+dex + Shield spell. Limited spells known make this riskier than with a Wizard.
Warlock Requires specific building to avoid being a squishy caster.

It Depends
Artficer Subclass dependent. Tends towards more durable with pet, healing gun, potions, armorer, etc.
Wizard Subclass dependent, War Wizard and Abjurer. Otherwise Less Durable.
Druid AC a bit low, but self-healing and shapeshifting or summoning allies. Subclass dependent.

Totally agree with everything
I wish to point out that wizards/sorcerers in tier 1 have 4 level 1 spell slots, it's resources heavy spending 2 of these slots for mage armor/shield, and it doesn't cover the whole adventuring day (saying this because someone includes AC 13 from mage armor in wiz/sorc AC baseline)

[Hael]

I mentioned it in the other thread, but durability really comes in two classes.. Frontline durability and durability for characters at range. It doesnt matter if the bard is relatively squishy if the only thing they have to worry about are ranged attackers. (Ranged attacks from npcs are less strong in 5e than frontline damage by a significant margin)

Relatedly the fact that rogues can hide and stay out of hairy situations changes their risk profile tremendously and hence their *actual* durability, as opposed to some theoretical white room analysis.

As far as not quite well known tricks. Warlocks have an invocation (fiendish vigor) that makes them one of the best tanks in the game up until lvl 3 or 4. So subclass dependant at 1, then strong from 2-4 assuming you build dthat way

Artificers are ok at lvl 1, but are simply unkillable from 2-4.

As far as traditional martials. Barbarians are top, then paladins. Then Fighters, followed by Rangers and then a gap and of course monks are likely the worst defensively in tier1. Rogues are playstyle dependant..

The casters of course are more complicated, and will be subclass dependent (compare the survivability of a moon druid vs a land druid). Generally speaking sorcerors and bards are probably the most vulnerable.

[Dork_Forge]

Excellent point about stats Willie I'll update!

Edit:
I mentioned it in the other thread, but durability really comes in two classes.. Frontline durability and durability for characters at range. It doesnt matter if the bard is relatively squishy if the only thing they have to worry about are ranged attackers. (Ranged attacks from npcs are less strong in 5e than frontline damage by a significant margin)

Relatedly the fact that rogues can hide and stay out of hairy situations changes their risk profile tremendously and hence their *actual* durability, as opposed to some theoretical white room analysis.

As far as not quite well known tricks. Warlocks have an invocation (fiendish vigor) that makes them one of the best tanks in the game up until lvl 3 or 4. So subclass dependant at 1, then strong from 2-4 assuming you build dthat way

Artificers are ok at lvl 1, but are simply unkillable from 2-4.

As far as traditional martials. Barbarians are top, then paladins. Then Fighters, followed by Rangers and then a gap and of course monks are likely the worst defensively in tier1. Rogues are playstyle dependant..

The casters of course are more complicated, and will be subclass dependent (compare the survivability of a moon druid vs a land druid). Generally speaking sorcerors and bards are probably the most vulnerable.

What makes you say that a Sorcerer is more vulnerable than a Wizard?

And as a fan of the Artifcer, how are they unkillable 2-4?

[LudicSavant]

Durability can vary a whole heck of a lot within a class even at tier 1 -- for example a reckless GWMer is generally much squisher than a sword and board user, Warlocks and Bards are only ever 1 half-feat away from armor and shield (or just get it from subclass), subclasses can contribute substantial defensive features like in the case of a Glamour Bard, Abjurer Wizard, Moon Druid, Rune Knight Fighter, Undead Warlock, etc. It's often the case that one member of (insert class) can be a squishy, while another could be a heavy tank.

[animorte]

Top tier: High AC, good vs dex save spells, always relevant. Even without Vhuman Shield Master, there’s good armor, higher HP and AC consistently.
Vhuman Shield Master Dex Barbarian.
Vhuman Shield Master Dex Fighter, Defense FS.
Vhuman Shield Master Dex Paladin, Defense FS (level 2).

Any caster that has Ray of Frost or a Warlock with Repelling Blast (level 2) can kite well enough, but still can’t take a hit. Vicious Mockery is also worth noting. And of course casters with an early Gish subclass.

A Monk’s high stats are Dex and Wis, the 2 most relevant in the game, so this is not to be overlooked. Otherwise, true they aren’t quite as durable. Thing about the Monk is a lot of its bonuses through all tiers of play aren’t as active as other class features. Their Ki is limited in a similar fashion to spells, so not always relevant. However, Unarmored Movement and Deflect Missiles often make for easier encounters overall.

Clerics are wicked good too. They have enough tools to keep up pretty well as front liners when you want or need to.

[Hael]

What makes you say that a Sorcerer is more vulnerable than a Wizard?

And as a fan of the Artifcer, how are they unkillable 2-4?

Sorcerors have fewer spell slots early.. Arcane recovery makes a big difference at lvl 1. Find familiar for scouting.. Also wizard subclasses have some that have quite strong defensive capabilities (abjuration/bladesing/war etc)

Artificers get infusions that give + to AC, and their subclasses gives very strong defensive options. For instance the artillerists turret is simply broken in that 3-5 range, making them maybe the most survivable class in the game (along with twilight clerics)

[LudicSavant]

I'll note that ranged Monks are more durable than typical melee Monks, and not just for the usual reasons that ranged characters are safer. Deflect Missiles is a strong defense against ranged weapon attacks, your mobility can keep you out of the way of melee attacks, and your saves aren't horrible (unlike some T1 martials). Whereas T1 melee monks... don't actually have a lot of things to keep them safe in melee.

- Deflect Missiles is worth an average of 5.5+Dex (3 to 5)+level (3-4) damage reduction per Reaction. So an 11.5-14.5 damage reduction Reaction, completely at-will. No ki cost or anything. For contrast, Second Wind would be worth 8.5-9.5 hp. Basically, Monks can just shrug off boulders to the face, even at low levels. If you make a traditional Sharpshooter fight a Gun Kensei, the Sharpshooter will have trouble dealing damage to the Monk.
- Their mobility lets them kite, or use cover better, or even have more opportunities to voluntarily drop prone at a good location.
- Good Dex saves. Not terrible Wisdom.
- Step of the Wind is available in an emergency. A solid AC + Disadvantage to be hit can be especially valuable in certain matchups (like mook swarms or the MPMM caster monsters that can one-shot a Reckless Barbarian but will just bounce off a good AC + Disadvantage).
- Their early AC can be unusually high for an archer/gunner if they get good stats. They also don't spend any money on armor (which actually matters in tier 1) and can redirect those resources elsewhere.
___

At specifically level 1 though, Monks are pretty much just worst of the pack unless they rolled high for stats. Without that, they're basically just a TWF Fighter with a lower HD and no Second Wind.

[strangebloke]

Races typically contain about three feats worth of abilities. At level 1, race choice is more impactful than class.

So bard is squishy, unless you're a custom lineage bard with moderately armored. Then you're pretty hardy. Monks are fragile, but then you're an mmom Goliath using a bow. Not really squishy at all.

And yeah as ludic said, build and play style choices matter. Sorcerer's are at range which is valuable but at level one they probably won't have mage armor - the wizard night not either. You only have 2 slots!

[stoutstien]

A lot changes each level from 1-5 so you'd need to break it down separately to have a good picture. Like barbarian scale pretty steadily but a druid could jump ahead by 300% between 1 and 2 but then gradually fall back down until well past T1.

[LumenPlacidum]

I also want to point out that if your character avoids damage by being an inconvenient target, then you are essentially just making it so that someone else is being attacked in your stead. It is often the case that when someone drops to single-digit HP, the person who still has a full bar but who has lower AC/etc. should step forward.

Avoidance works great if the party member you are subjecting to enemy attention can take it, or if everyone is completely avoiding retaliation. If you are just making another PC go down in place of damage to yourself, that is probably an overall DETRIMENT to party durability, not a boon.

And, in my experience, rarely does such a character recognize the shift when it needs to occur. So, I would be hesitant to consider avoidance in the question of durability. The ranged character in the rear lines is probably just as screwed if standing alone as anyone else, once their entire party goes down.

[Dork_Forge]

And, in my experience, rarely does such a character recognize the shift when it needs to occur. So, I would be hesitant to consider avoidance in the question of durability. The ranged character in the rear lines is probably just as screwed if standing alone as anyone else, once their entire party goes down.

I would completely agree with this as an approach to this question and I see it often in the games I run. The casters or skirmishers are still running on full (or near full) hit points whilst the tanks are in the danger zone. Then instead of stepping up, the tanks start to drop and the pop up fest begins.

I think this usually comes from a mindset of 'I'm squishy' and failing to apply the nuance of 'I'm the squishiest, but I'm still the best off right now' or putting individual HP preservation ahead of the party as a whole. Either way it leads to the same place, other PCs continuing to take heat beyond the point the switch should occur.

[KorvinStarmast]

And made me wonder what everyone's opinion on this kind of topic is, so some framing:

We're looking at the relative (to each other) durability of the 13 classes across Tier 1, please note I'm saying across Tier 1, so don't focus on 4th level or something when making your arguments.
IME, damage avoidance and mitigation is a team effort if one wants it to be effective.
I assume: Point Buy, CON of 14 for martials, and 12 or 14 for casters.
Assumptions: how many encounters and how many short rests? I suggest 6 and 2.
As to selfish play

Either way it leads to the same place, other PCs continuing to take heat beyond the point the switch should occur. Yeah, it's a problem with people who don't get that it's a team game.

With that said:

In Tier 1
Notes:
1. If you go vHuman and take heavy armor master, that 3 HP damage reduction goes a long way in a four to six encounter day.
2. With six encounters a day, Barbarian rages don't play into about half of the encounters. The alternate sword and board approach, which gives +2 AC, is a useful difference for the intelligent barbarian player.
3. If spell casters rely on personal defensive spells, they are NOT helping the team in a six encounter day, unless they put up shield and use a CC/debuff. Druid.

Top Survivors:
Still barbarians, Fighters in heavy armor sword and board, clerics in heavy armor, Sorcerers (Draconic Origin), and Paladins. Add vHuman Ranger with Medium Armor Master to this list. Druid: combo of debuff spells and HP pool from wild shape, even if it's a wolf. :smallwink:

OK survivors:
Monks, Rogues, Rangers, warlock when played intelligently. I've seen some purely stupid warlock play that boggles the mind. Note that Pact of the Chain with an invisible scout improves the whole party's ability to avoid damage, levels 3 and 4.

Squish: wizardz who actually contribute to the party rather than spamming shield; sorcerer, bard (until cutting words comes on line at 3).
Artificers: no comment. Artillerist using protector canon renders the whole party buffed an absurd amount.

[stoutstien]

I also want to point out that if your character avoids damage by being an inconvenient target, then you are essentially just making it so that someone else is being attacked in your stead. It is often the case that when someone drops to single-digit HP, the person who still has a full bar but who has lower AC/etc. should step forward.

Avoidance works great if the party member you are subjecting to enemy attention can take it, or if everyone is completely avoiding retaliation. If you are just making another PC go down in place of damage to yourself, that is probably an overall DETRIMENT to party durability, not a boon.

And, in my experience, rarely does such a character recognize the shift when it needs to occur. So, I would be hesitant to consider avoidance in the question of durability. The ranged character in the rear lines is probably just as screwed if standing alone as anyone else, once their entire party goes down.

That's why mitigation is a party strategy not an individual one. It can get pretty complex but the three major components are deny avoid reduced.

[Dork_Forge]

That's why mitigation is a party strategy not an individual one. It can get pretty complex but the three major components are deny avoid reduced.

I would add heal as a fourth component to make this more complete.

[stoutstien]

I would add heal as a fourth component to make this more complete.

I tend to shift recovery features into a sub list but it can very easily be integrated into the triangle.

The reason why I do it is because healing and condition removal can make its way into all three types of mitigation. So like how there's always a conversation on what the best healer is when in fact the best healer is the one who has the means and opportunity when the occasion calls for it. There's some give and take based on how cheaply they can do it resource-wise but a well-timed level one healing word can be more important than a maximized level 9 cure wound

[Angelalex242]

In Tier 1, Heavy Armor Master is king. (and it maintains some use in higher tiers as well, since it takes 3 off every attack in a multi attack. It's also a nice anti swarm measure.)

Clerics aren't likely to take that feat, but Vhuman Paladins and Fighters will.

[Dork_Forge]

I tend to shift recovery features into a sub list but it can very easily be integrated into the triangle.

The reason why I do it is because healing and condition removal can make its way into all three types of mitigation. So like how there's always a conversation on what the best healer is when in fact the best healer is the one who has the means and opportunity when the occasion calls for it. There's some give and take based on how cheaply they can do it resource-wise but a well-timed level one healing word can be more important than a maximized level 9 cure wound

The reason that I personally include it is because some classes are more invested in it, for example Second Wind is intrinsic to the Figher's durability and entirely directed at them alone

[stoutstien]

The reason that I personally include it is because some classes are more invested in it, for example Second Wind is intrinsic to the Figher's durability and entirely directed at them alone
Fair though it's value is based on the ability of the party to channel unavoidable damage to said fighter in the first place to get it's full effect. That's probably outside the scope of this thread.

[Witty Username]

I will assume access to appropriate mundane gear (shields, heavy armor).

More Durable
Barbarian obvious
Cleric thanks to self-sustaining from healing, shields, often heavy armor proficiency
Fighter Often best AC
Paladin Heavy armor and sustain

Less Durable
Bard no major defensive features or proficiencies
Monk too squishy, not enough ki for dodging enough to make a difference
Ranger AC not high, few healing resources
Rogue AC not high, no self healing, no Uncanny Dodge yet
Sorcerer Best bet is AC 13+dex + Shield spell. Limited spells known make this riskier than with a Wizard.
Warlock Requires specific building to avoid being a squishy caster.

It Depends
Artficer Subclass dependent. Tends towards more durable with pet, healing gun, potions, armorer, etc.
Wizard Subclass dependent, War Wizard and Abjurer. Otherwise Less Durable.
Druid AC a bit low, but self-healing and shapeshifting or summoning allies. Subclass dependent.

I would bump Ranger into the more durable camp, Ranger AC is fairly comparable to the High Durability options when the ranger is in Medium Armor, fighter HP, and the healing resources Ranger has like goodberry are very effective in Tier 1 specifically.
Also I woud move warlock to It depends simply because if hexblade stuff gets weird.
Everything else is about right

[diplomancer]

I would bump Ranger into the more durable camp, Ranger AC is fairly comparable to the High Durability options when the ranger is in Medium Armor, fighter HP, and the healing resources Ranger has like goodberry are very effective in Tier 1 specifically.
Also I woud move warlock to It depends simply because if hexblade stuff gets weird.
Everything else is about right

Someone mentioned the importance of rotating front and back lines. This is another situation where the Ranger is particularly good. He can start Ranged and switch to the front when needed.