what are the option in 5e for an "evil / oathbreaker" paladin ?

[Myth27]

I'm starting a new campaign in a world that has a powerful lich commanding a lot of undead and an order of paladin and clerics devoted to fighting it. I want to play a character that is a part of this order but later betrays the order to join the lich.

I haven't kept up with the most recent books. Is the oathbreaker paladin subclass still a thing or was it an UA ?
did they publish some other interesting stuff ?

[Psyren]

1) Oathbreaker does exist, it's found in the DMG.

2) Technically ALL the Paladins can be evil, as paladins are not tied to a specific alignment in this edition. That might be harder to justify with some subclasses (e.g. Redemption and Devotion), but for others like Vengeance and Conquest it's not too difficult.

[CTurbo]

Oathbreaker is very evil, but I wouldn't recommend playing one in a campaign against undead as your enemies will benefit from your aura against you.

I've played an evil Vengeance Paladin and it worked well without making any changes so I recommend that.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've played an evil Vengeance Paladin and it worked well without making any changes so I recommend that. If I may second this; a Vengeance Paladin with an evil alignment fills a really nice niche. Ours went from level 2 to 7, and then the campaign died from Natural Causes: Real Life. :smallfrown:

[Naanomi]

Conquest lends itself well to evil alignments as well, as does Crowns (with a suitably evil boss)

[H_H_F_F]

Conquest is the evil oath, without going to "undead boss" which is what oathbreaker does.

Oathbreaker + necromancer in the same party is awesome though.

[RogueJK]

A multiclass combo of Oathbreaker or Conquest Paladin and Undead Warlock would not only be thematically appropriate, but also mechanically synergizes well.

Good multiclass splits include:

A) Oathbreaker or Conquest Paladin X with a 1 or 2 level Undead Warlock dip. This Undead Warlock dip gets you Form of Dread for a little temp HP and the ability to Frighten every round (especially nice to pair with Conquest's Aura of Conquest), some short rest recharging spell/smite slots, Eldritch Blast for a backup ranged option, and potentially a couple Invocations. Plus, Form of Dread uses scale with Proficiency, not Warlock level.

B) Paladin 2/Undead Blade Pact Warlock X. This is basically an Undead Bladelock with medium/heavy armor, some 1st level Paladin spells and slots, and Divine Smite.

C) Oathbreaker Paladin 7/Undead Tome or Chain Pact Warlock X. This gets you Extra Attack, 2nd level Paladin spells, +CHA to saving throws, an extra damage dice on 1 hit per turn (nice for stuff like Greataxes to do 2d12), and a boost to friendly undead and fiends (including those that you eventually can summon using the Summon Undead or Summon Fiend spells).

D) Conquest Paladin 7/Undead Tome or Chain Pact Warlock X. Just like C above, only doubling down on the Frightened condition from your Form of Dread by locking down Frightened enemies, instead of boosting nearby Fiends/Undead.

D) Oathbreaker or Conquest 7 -> Undead Tome or Chain Pact Warlock 6 -> Oathbreaker or Conquest X. Similar to C or D above, just going back into Paladin for higher level Paladin abilities after grabbing Grave Touched at Warlock 6.

[kingcheesepants]

I'm starting a new campaign in a world that has a powerful lich commanding a lot of undead and an order of paladin and clerics devoted to fighting it. I want to play a character that is a part of this order but later betrays the order to join the lich.


Since you want to start off fighting the undead and then later join them you might talk to the DM about starting as more of a traditional paladin (Devotion is the classic LG paladin but Vengeance or Conquest could work well if you're starting off more neutral and want more of a bloodknight type paladin who's less interested in helping people than in fighting the bad guys or just winning) and then switch to oathbreaker when you actually break your oath and switch sides. This would allow your character to work well as a paladin in the beginning and then have a very good in story reason for switching subclasses and the Oathbreaker features are very good if you're going to be teaming up with the undead.

[CTurbo]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Oathbreaker's 7th level Aura affects ALL undead and fiends whether they are friendly to you or trying to kill you. I wouldn't recommend playing an Oathbreaker if you know you're going to be fighting lots of undead/fiends.

You could literally take any Oath though and be evil.

Vengeance and Conquest work best, but I've seen an evil Devotion Paladin work well too. Just do a 180 on some of the features and it works perfectly.

[ATHATH]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Oathbreaker's 7th level Aura affects ALL undead and fiends whether they are friendly to you or trying to kill you. I wouldn't recommend playing an Oathbreaker if you know you're going to be fighting lots of undead/fiends.
Eh, it's not THAT bad. Yes, enemy undead and fiends within 10 ft. of you get the damage boost too, but they have to actually hit you (with a melee attack!) to make use of it. If you keep your AC in shape and buff yourself with Protection from Evil and Good, you should be fine.

(Anecdotal) Source: I played through a (full) Curse of Strahd campaign as an Oathbreaker specifically because I knew it would be an undead-heavy campaign. More undead = more opportunities to encounter one of the really good minion candidates, like a Flameskull.

And just a miscellaneous tip: If you can, designate your mount from Find Steed as being a fiend. Warhorses actually have reasonable combat stats, and they benefit pretty nicely from your aura.

[Chronos]

If you're familiar with Magic: the Gathering lore, elves in Lorwyn would be very likely to include evil Ancients Paladins.

[georgie_leech]

If you're familiar with Magic: the Gathering lore, elves in Lorwyn would be very likely to include evil Ancients Paladins.

While Oath of the Ancients has more of a Fey vibe to the mechanics, the actual Oath tenets are... difficult to squeeze into Evil-aligned beliefs. I mean, maybe you could squeeze in being kind, merciful, and forgiving into Evil, but actively sheltering good from the wickedness in the world seems like a hard sell.

Especially given the context of allying with Undead, as their second tenet also calls out "Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren." I think that's the most explicitly anti-Undead tenet of all the Oaths.

[Kane0]

Oathbreaker, Conquest, Vengeance and you can stretch some more to fit like Crown, Glory and Watchers without too much effort.

[Spiritchaser]

I’ve played a LE vengence pally, it worked just fine.

As others have said, conquest works well too.

Others would be more of a stretch.

Oathbreaker if your DM is fine with it

[Naanomi]

Crown is easy, all it takes is a villainous sovereign to pledge your loyalty to

[Hael]

I've played the oathbreaker Hexadin build before. Its one of the better martials in the game at higher lvls (12 hexblade/8 oathbreaker). Alternatively and more thematically, you can go undead Oathbreaker (or Genie lock for storage) where you need warlock 5 (for recharging 3rd lvl slots) and paladin 9 for animate dead. At that point you can create the biggest horde of skeletons in all of 5e.

[Chronos]

Quoth georgie_leech:

While Oath of the Ancients has more of a Fey vibe to the mechanics, the actual Oath tenets are... difficult to squeeze into Evil-aligned beliefs. I mean, maybe you could squeeze in being kind, merciful, and forgiving into Evil, but actively sheltering good from the wickedness in the world seems like a hard sell.

Especially given the context of allying with Undead, as their second tenet also calls out "Where life flourishes, stand against the forces that would render it barren." I think that's the most explicitly anti-Undead tenet of all the Oaths.
An undead focus specifically might be difficult, but an ancients paladin can be focused on beauty, light, art, and the like, which have no inherent moral value, positive or negative. Especially if you're preserving beauty by destroying "eyeblights", those things too ugly to exist. Or consider a duel with "warriors' grace, the crash of steel, and then the artful spray of blood" to be a thing of beauty.

[Millstone85]

An undead focus specifically might be difficult, but an ancients paladin can be focused on beauty, light, art, and the like, which have no inherent moral value, positive or negative. Especially if you're preserving beauty by destroying "eyeblights", those things too ugly to exist. Or consider a duel with "warriors' grace, the crash of steel, and then the artful spray of blood" to be a thing of beauty.The tenets of the ancients are basically:

Be excellent to each other.
Party on, dudes!

You could certainly play an ancient paladin who forgot all about the first tenet, but then they are on their way to fall.

[Sception]

you want to start fighting the undead, then 'fall' and join them. This is a pretty clear cut, by the book implementation of the DMG oathbreaker. Ie, you start out as some other oath, break that oath by going against your code and joining the dark side, and instead of atoning you double down by becoming an oathbreaker, which replaces your previous oath features with oathbreaker features.

Yes, there are other oaths that work for evil paladins - vengeance and conquest most notably, but we're not talking about an evil paladin from the get go, but rather a paladin who becomes evil later. And one who becomes evil specifically by joining up with a lich lord and their evil undead army, which specifically synergizes with the oathbreaker's aura, because by the time this character falls, they're not fighting against undead anymore, they're fighting with them.

As for which oath to start with, i dunno. Devotion will be helpful while fighting against the undead. Vengeance has strong early oath spells and features, and already teeters on a moral edge that might make your fall feel more natural.

All that said, a PC betraying the party to join the BBEG tends to result in that PC becoming an NPC and the player making a new character - and that's if your character survives the turn, 5e isn't balanced for pvp. So I probably wouldn't count on getting much if any actual game time as an Oathbreaker anti-paladin in this scenario.

[Psyren]

Eh, it's not THAT bad. Yes, enemy undead and fiends within 10 ft. of you get the damage boost too, but they have to actually hit you (with a melee attack!) to make use of it.

You're assuming you're the only party member in melee range. Enemies can stand in your aura and swing at your allies just fine, and in fact they're likely to do so so they can benefit from it as long as possible. A lot of fiends have great reach too.

Also, definitely multiclass if your game is planning to hit 18th level :smalltongue: