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Draz74
2007-11-29, 04:44 PM
Hey all,

I've read many threads arguing about Vow of Poverty, and I understand the concerns with it, in general. I've heard that the only circumstances where VoP is even close to worthwhile are:

- on a Druid
- on a Totemist (this one is supposed to actually be pretty good)
- on a Psion
- in a campaign where the DM gives out significantly less than WBL.

However, when people talk about what is seriously lacking on a VoP character, the example they always use is the difficulty of flying without items.

So here's my question: how much would VoP actually hurt builds that aren't extremely gear-dependent (e.g. Wizard, Artificer, Cleric who needs holy symbol, or anybody whose actual class features suck like a Fighter or Monk), if they can fly just fine?

I'm thinking specifically of a Raptoran Warblade. If he used VoP, he could get away with claiming that he really doesn't use magic much at all. And if I have come up with a character who doesn't really use magic at all and can still contribute at high levels, I'll like the concept.

F.L.
2007-11-29, 05:48 PM
Wizards are insanely gear dependant. At level 1, their spellbook alone is worth 5000+ gp. Plus material components. etc.

A sorceror can barely get away with VOP, a monk's tricky to use in any case, a fighter with natural fly speed almost can work as well.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-29, 05:54 PM
How exactly can you be a wizard, artificer or cleric and "not really use magic at all"?

If you want to contribute at high levels, fighter and monk are both bad ideas period.

You could still try for an ubercharger, or diplomancer, or generic skill monkey with not all that much magical gear, I suppose. Many of their boosts come from feats and prestige classes.

stainboy
2007-11-29, 05:58 PM
An artificer with a vow of poverty is a nonfunctional character. Technically, you could play one, buff other party member's items and craft items on behalf of other people, but I can't imagine the character not being unfun and underpowered.

Roleplaying-whise it doesn't make much sense either. You're playing a character who eschews materialism and a class essentially based on materialism.

Hyfigh
2007-11-29, 06:00 PM
It's not just flying. That's just a glaring, obvious reason to say it's sub-optimal. Realistically, the abilities you gain through VoP, if you converted them into various items, don't really come close to matching the wealth-by-level standards. Any time you can get away with equipment even coming coming to 50-75% of standard wealth-by-level you'll probably be doing better than VoP. That is, if you've made appropriate purchases.

Tokiko Mima
2007-11-29, 06:01 PM
Hey all,

I've read many threads arguing about Vow of Poverty, and I understand the concerns with it, in general. I've heard that the only circumstances where VoP is even close to worthwhile are:

- on a Druid
- on a Totemist (this one is supposed to actually be pretty good)
- on a Psion
- in a campaign where the DM gives out significantly less than WBL.

However, when people talk about what is seriously lacking on a VoP character, the example they always use is the difficulty of flying without items.

So here's my question: how much would VoP actually hurt builds that aren't extremely gear-dependent (e.g. Wizard, Artificer, Cleric who needs holy symbol, or anybody whose actual class features suck like a Fighter or Monk), if they can fly just fine?

I'm thinking specifically of a Raptoran Warblade. If he used VoP, he could get away with claiming that he really doesn't use magic much at all. And if I have come up with a character who doesn't really use magic at all and can still contribute at high levels, I'll like the concept.

Well, the classes you mentioned are a lot more gear dependant that it might seem. It is my understanding that an Artificer would be almost completely crippled by VoP, because they would be unable to craft due to their inability to create/use/own Masterwork items. Clerics and Wizards have a lot of higher level spells with expensive components (forcecage, for example) as well as weaknesses that they cover with magic items

VoP also means you can't have adamantite or mithral material equipment, because that would make an item Masterwork. It means encumbrance is now a huge concern for you since you don't give your share of loot to you companions, and are instead assumed to immediately donate it to the poor.

If you look at a full WBL 20th level character, you will notice that a very large portion of their abilities comes from the magic items they have, not their class/race abilities. A VoP character has only those class/race abilities, and their very limited set of VoP abilities.

I personally find VoP as annoying as heck, because once VoP is set there's little incentive or motivation for a character to adventure at all. After all, they can't keep anything neat that they find along the way, while their companions will be getting all sorts of cool weapons/armor/misc. items. It's not fun for the DM either, because it gets harder to involve the player if you can only reward XP which everyone gets relatively equally. So in almost all cases, VoP is a severe disadvantage. The cases you listed are a rare few where it's not a total loss.

As far as your Raptorian Warblade, how will he/she handle, for example, 6 Wraiths of CR equal to the Warblade? You have to keep these things in mind. There's a lot a VoP character will never be able to do well.

Anyway, I'm not trying to discourage you from playing a magic-lite character, just make you realize that there's more you lose in VoP than just the ability to fly. A magic-heretic can be cool. :smallsmile:

Yami
2007-11-29, 06:04 PM
A warlock. I've actually had to turn this one down in one of my campaigns due to player balance, but the concept was solid.

They really aren't that item dependant (and I must admit, I was giving out sub-par loot,) and once you realize that shattering your enemies magic items doesn't hurt you, it can get hairy for the poor NPCs.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-29, 06:05 PM
Let's see... of the Core classes...
Barbarian: At low to mid levels, these guys pretty much need to do some minmaxing with equipment - which VoP doesn't really permit.
Bard: Depends on the build. If you're writing him up as a Jack of All Trades, and pick the right spells, it's not too bad. If you try to specialize, it's not going to work out well.
Cleric: A Holy symbol isn't on the list of permitted things. This cuts out a very big chunk of the Cleric's spell list. Still pretty decent, though.
Druid: Holy and Mistle, despite having a price line of -, is not on the list of things a VoP character is permitted; this cuts down on a lot of the spells the Druid can cast. However, as all feats and Su abilities (which covers VoP quite well) remain in Wildshape, the VoP Druid can keep up surprisingly well.
Fighter: Relies fairly heavily on equipment; VoP bonuses don't cut it for his sweet zone.
Monk: He's MAD - and the VoP helps with that, just slightly, as it's a fairly wide range of bonuses. A VoP Monk can generally keep up with a regular Monk, once you get past the "required equipment" issue (such as Flight items).
Paladin: See Monk
Ranger: See Fighter.
Rogue: Depends on build. Can sometimes keep up, othertimes not.
Sorcerer: Can get away with it. Sorcerer is one of the least equipment-dependant classes out there.
Wizard: No-go. A spellbook isn't on the list of acceptable items.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-29, 06:26 PM
Wait, this is slightly sillier than I thought it would be...

a VOP wizard is not allowed a spellbook?
a VOP cleric is not allowed a holy symbol?

Whoa.

Okay, I get that spellbooks are expensive. Still, you could fluff around that to some extent by using e.g. knotted cords (ideal for illiterate wizards), stone tablets (for those str-18 wizards, if any) and spells tattooed on your skin (which is kind of cool in a creepy way).

But clerics? I mean, most of my pantheon has holy symbols that can be carved out of wood or stone for a handful of coppers. Sure, the high priest is going to want a gem-encrusted gold one, but you can pray with the shell-on-a-string...

Weird, imho.

Hyfigh
2007-11-29, 06:32 PM
Wait, this is slightly sillier than I thought it would be...

a VOP wizard is not allowed a spellbook?
a VOP cleric is not allowed a holy symbol?

Whoa.

Okay, I get that spellbooks are expensive. Still, you could fluff around that to some extent by using e.g. knotted cords (ideal for illiterate wizards), stone tablets (for those str-18 wizards, if any) and spells tattooed on your skin (which is kind of cool in a creepy way).

But clerics? I mean, most of my pantheon has holy symbols that can be carved out of wood or stone for a handful of coppers. Sure, the high priest is going to want a gem-encrusted gold one, but you can pray with the shell-on-a-string...

Weird, imho.

Many, many DM's will overlook this one. Items provided through class features are considered by some to bypass the items clause in VoP. I'm on the fence for this ruling and play it case by case. The other problem is that many spells require expensive material components.

F.L.
2007-11-29, 06:44 PM
Wait, this is slightly sillier than I thought it would be...

a VOP wizard is not allowed a spellbook?
a VOP cleric is not allowed a holy symbol?

Whoa.

Okay, I get that spellbooks are expensive. Still, you could fluff around that to some extent by using e.g. knotted cords (ideal for illiterate wizards), stone tablets (for those str-18 wizards, if any) and spells tattooed on your skin (which is kind of cool in a creepy way).

But clerics? I mean, most of my pantheon has holy symbols that can be carved out of wood or stone for a handful of coppers. Sure, the high priest is going to want a gem-encrusted gold one, but you can pray with the shell-on-a-string...

Weird, imho.

No matter what you make a spellbook out of, it requires 100 gp per level of the spell. The fact that you can sell back a spellbook for half price of its creation makes it ultra-valuable. A wizard could do spell mastery, but it makes them much, much weaker than a sorceror.

goat
2007-11-29, 07:08 PM
Well, unless you've got a friendly tattooist or you've got skills in it yourself, tattooing costs money and requires equipment, and you're not meant to have any...

As far as I remember, it's one simple, basic weapon, one set of clothes, and a bag of basic spell components. No money, no books, no using magical items EVER.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-29, 07:15 PM
Hm...

Actually, in a city-based campaign, you might try using the municipal library. On the plus side, you can use those books despite not actually owning any of them. On the downside, you get to do all the nasty chores the archmage doesn't want to do himself...

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-29, 07:23 PM
One can bypass the Cleric holy symbol restriction, even if your DM enforces RAW by the rules, by taking a Cleric variant (I think it's from Dragon) that allows you to function as your own holy symbol. Kinda an interesting concept in my opinion.
Most melee classes seem to do quite poorly with VoP, as the huge damage builds require some sort of magical enchantment (Splitting bow enchantment, Valorous weapon enchantment, magic weapons and armor, etc.) which screws them over royally against higher level foes. Higher levels are literally build on magic items, and without them, one is powerless. Clerics, Sorcerers, Druids and other full casters (sans Wizard) can do fine without the magic items, but become more fragile as consequence (i.e. no Evasion, Ioun Stones, Pearl of Power, Prayer Beads, Nightsticks).
I do strongly support a Diplomancer VoP build because many Exalted feats in BoED give boost to Diplomacy (Nymph's Kiss, Sacred Vow, Vow of Peace) and are pretty strong in terms of benefits (the aforementioned Vow of Peace). Diplomacy helps counteract the condition of not doing lethal damage.

Draz74
2007-11-29, 07:55 PM
OK, apologies, my OP was pretty ambiguous. And you all misunderstood what I meant. :smalltongue:

I intended to include Wizard, Artificer, Cleric, Monk, & Fighter under "classes that are extremely gear-dependent," i.e. the kind that I would certainly NOT ever use with VoP. (Though Cleric is a gray area if you houserule the holy symbol thing.) I know not to go anywhere near that mess.


VoP also means you can't have adamantite or mithral material equipment, because that would make an item Masterwork.

Right ... don't see why that's especially important. Even if you meet something with high DR /adamantine, Mountain Hammer is there for you.


It means encumbrance is now a huge concern for you since you don't give your share of loot to you companions, and are instead assumed to immediately donate it to the poor.

Not quite understanding. So encumbrance is a huge concern because you can't even let your allies temporarily carry stuff while you take it to town and sell it? If that's what you meant, I can see why that would be a pain. Although at least Warblades are a high-Strength class. I bet most DMs would be willing to work out something reasonable in this area, though.


If you look at a full WBL 20th level character, you will notice that a very large portion of their abilities comes from the magic items they have, not their class/race abilities. A VoP character has only those class/race abilities, and their very limited set of VoP abilities.

Yeah, that's why I asked "how much will this hurt me?" instead of "will this be good or bad for this character?"


I personally find VoP as annoying as heck, because once VoP is set there's little incentive or motivation for a character to adventure at all. After all, they can't keep anything neat that they find along the way, while their companions will be getting all sorts of cool weapons/armor/misc. items. It's not fun for the DM either, because it gets harder to involve the player if you can only reward XP which everyone gets relatively equally. So in almost all cases, VoP is a severe disadvantage. The cases you listed are a rare few where it's not a total loss.

Hmmm, good points. You'd have to have an especially story-driven game for this to work. Well, with this in mind, I'll probably never actually use VoP even if I find a build where it's powerful. I'm still kind of curious about finding powerful VoP builds, though, as a mental exercise.


As far as your Raptorian Warblade, how will he/she handle, for example, 6 Wraiths of CR equal to the Warblade? You have to keep these things in mind. There's a lot a VoP character will never be able to do well.

See, this is the kind of stuff I was really looking for. "What issues other than mobility will I really run into (on a class with good class features like Warblade) while using VoP?" "Incorporeality ..." "Ah, good point. I'll need to keep that in mind before I make a decision. What else?"

Thanks for the responses.

F.L.
2007-11-29, 09:02 PM
I believe, with regards to etherealness, your VoP weapons count as magical, therefore you can hit ethereal things, you just have the very annoying 50% miss chance. It's not like you can't defeat them, it's just more difficult than usual. Alternately, use spells.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-29, 10:24 PM
I'm pretty sure tattooing is not that expensive. Most tribes use sticks and charcoal(or crushed plants, fruits, bugs, whatever). Hell, in Russian prisons, they use(d) boot scrapings, urine, and a modified ball-point pen.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-30, 12:31 AM
A Psion, Wilder, or Psychic Warrior can do very well with a Vow of Poverty - for a similar reason a Sorcerer can (low equipment dependency) so long as they select a set of powers that deal well with the specific situations (e.g., ranged combat, flight, and so on).

Draz74
2007-11-30, 01:59 AM
A Psion, Wilder, or Psychic Warrior can do very well with a Vow of Poverty - for a similar reason a Sorcerer can (low equipment dependency) so long as they select a set of powers that deal well with the specific situations (e.g., ranged combat, flight, and so on).

Well, some people on these boards seem to think a Wilder can't do very well, period, regardless of Feats or Items or whatever. Personally, I'm a big fan of their extreme numbers of PP and enjoy making builds based on them. But their low number of powers known makes me think it's probably a bad idea to take away even more options by taking VoP.

Psychic Warrior, too, doesn't get a whole lot of powers known, and probably appreciates equipment in more ways too.

But Psion and (for that matter) Ardent seem like they'd be good for VoP, yes.

(Whatever you do, don't get a Soulknife with VoP, since the only good thing about the Soulknife anyway is that he can spend his money on other magic items instead of a magic weapon! :smalltongue:)

F.L.
2007-11-30, 06:40 AM
I'm pretty sure tattooing is not that expensive. Most tribes use sticks and charcoal(or crushed plants, fruits, bugs, whatever). Hell, in Russian prisons, they use(d) boot scrapings, urine, and a modified ball-point pen.

Regardless, to scribe a spell requires 100gp per spell level. They have to be 'magic' tattoo inks. Or magic strings. Or magic birch bark. Or whatever. Heck, with Vow of Poverty, you cannot take advantage of captured spellbooks, or obtained scrolls, they're too expensive, so it's a moot point.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-30, 07:02 AM
Well, some people on these boards seem to think a Wilder can't do very well, period, regardless of Feats or Items or whatever. Personally, I'm a big fan of their extreme numbers of PP and enjoy making builds based on them. But their low number of powers known makes me think it's probably a bad idea to take away even more options by taking VoP.

Psychic Warrior, too, doesn't get a whole lot of powers known, and probably appreciates equipment in more ways too.

Well, it does depend on level, but the "simple" fix is to make heavy use of Psychic Reformaion (http://www.rpgoracle.com/srd/psionicPowersGtoP.html#psychic-reformation) to replace powers known.


But Psion and (for that matter) Ardent seem like they'd be good for VoP, yes.

(Whatever you do, don't get a Soulknife with VoP, since the only good thing about the Soulknife anyway is that he can spend his money on other magic items instead of a magic weapon! :smalltongue:)
You notice the Soulknife wasn't on my list?

mostlyharmful
2007-11-30, 08:12 AM
The problem with VoP isn't a reduction in power specifically, if you want to build a damage dealer or caster you can generally work it, albiet at subpar levels, instead the problem is versitility. You can use the attribute boosts to pump whats important to your build and there's enough AC bonusses and random gumph to stay vaguely within sight of most builds, think instead of the utility, escape and contingent magical effects and items. No more ring of Ivis, no hat of disguise, no flying, no identify, no passwall, dimdoor, deathward, etc.. but what you yourself cast or from your buddies. This makes prepeation for casters even more crucial, since you cant rely on scrolls to provide rarely used but occassionally essential spells. When you fight simple enemies that rely on straight combat you'll do ok, even if they have big resistances/protections you should be able to slug it out as standerd.

The key is to look through the list of status effects and conditions in the back of the PHB, all those shaken, stunned, poisened, ability drained/damaged, paralysis, incorporeal, neg levels, etc.. then think how a VoP build can get around them. If you've got a caster they can prep Deathward and mindblank at high levels but until then you cant have access to lots of protections.

- Versatility is most of what you give up, unless you've got a stellar team behind you and eventually you wont, either through overusing them or by getting seperated. And then you get splatted by non-hp take-downs.:smallannoyed: seriously the team dependancy of a VoP PC is most of the reason why I can't stand them, you rely on your mates to cover everything for you and you don't even give them a bigger share of the loot cause it specifically says you have to give your share to "worthy charities" rather than your team mates.
- Seldom used spells, ie knock, comprehend languages/tongues, erase, break enchantment, etc...
- Escape or Evasive magic, hat of disguise, ring of invis, cape of the mounteback, wand of ropetrick, any focus for palneshift,
- No bribery or paying NPCs, so no using toll roads/bridges, no hirelings, no buying passage on a ship, no hireing spellcasting, etc...
- unusual terrain and environment becomes a LOT more challenging, flying is just one example, underwater, underground or at night, on other planes, etc...
- skill boosts aren't available so not just no boots of elvenkind but no tools at all, all skillmonkey classes are hopelessly gymped beyound a lack of versatility.

Crow
2007-11-30, 09:12 AM
Can a VoP Kensai enchant a normal weapon, or does it have to be masterwork?

Frosty
2007-11-30, 11:31 AM
You can get your own body enchanted however, since you always own your own body and it has no GP cost. I allow characters to go on difficult quests for various wizards who in turn will agree to enchant the bodies of the VoP members for various benefits.

Vasdenjas
2007-11-30, 12:12 PM
Seems to me that ideal classes to take VoP might be the ones from Magic of Incarnum. Their soulmelds take over item body slots anyways, once they can bind them, and the Exalted/Incarnum (soul-energy) ideas seem to mesh well.

Their Souldmelds would allow them to get that added versatility that most lose with VoP, such as flight. I've not looked into it much, but it's worth doing so....