My life is a lie, and melee combat control builds are a myth

[Obscuraphile]

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Did everyone else know about this and I'm just an idiot? I tried to find the discussion thread for comic 216 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html), but either they didn't exist back then or weren't archived back that far. But regardless, the build doesn't work, or at least it only allows for one AoO on approach. Which means combat reflexes is an almost entirely irrelevant feat.

[Particle_Man]

Well it is good for stopping multiple dudes that would otherwise run past you. Usually combat reflexes builds try to do something that stops a person (trip, perhaps) so that their turn effectively ends, so that you would not need multiple aoos vs the same dude in the same round. And at least you can still get multiple aoos vs the same dude if they do different things warranting aoos in the same round (try to grapple you and then flee for example?)

[Saintheart]

Did everyone else know about this and I'm just an idiot? I tried to find the discussion thread for comic 216 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html), but either they didn't exist back then or weren't archived back that far. But regardless, the build doesn't work, or at least it only allows for one AoO on approach. Which means combat reflexes is an almost entirely irrelevant feat.

AoOs aren't just generated by approach, see Robilar's Gambit. And you still might be able to argue that under Stormguard Warrior that each AoO you forego means you haven't used up your AoO on that opponent, i.e. iterative AoOs can still contribute toward next round's attack bonus.

[Ramza00]

Also there are Dragon Feats, Magic Items, etc that allow you to have 2 or 3 AoO from the same triggering event.

The problem is these things are taxes with feats, taxes with wealth, etc. Spellcasters do control better with less taxes for most levels (but not all levels)

[Zanos]

Combat Reflexes lets you make more than one attack of opportunity per turn. It's useless in a 1v1 most of the time unless the same enemy moves or otherwise provokes multiple times.

But they idea with melee control isn't that someone approaches you and you hit them four times and they die, but that you can replace an aoo with a trip attempt, stopping their movement and giving you a free attack on them. And of course combat reflexes is useful because you can do that against multiple foes.

[icefractal]

As mentioned, it's more for fighting multiple opponents, but one foe could provoke multiple AoOs by different methods. Such as stand up, move, and then fire a ranged weapon (with some way to stand faster or move for free). It works better with maximizing your reach, obviously. It also lets you make AoOs while flat-footed, which has come in handy a fair amount.

[pabelfly]

AoOs aren't just generated by approach, see Robilar's Gambit.

Karmic Strike is also fun to combine with Robilar's Gambit to get multiple attacks of opportunity against an opponent each attack against you.

[Barstro]

The HALF-orc never said what all five feats were. I think Hold The Line works for this. The HO did specify that Roy needed to charge.

[Darg]

Stand Still works great as a single feat investment. You might not get all the extra attacks and trips, but you do halt them in place for a single feat investment and it works on even larger creatures. Plus it's easier to succeed the reflex save and is usable no matter the movement type if you can reach the target (doesn't need the RC to say you can trip flyers).

[Maat Mons]

Yeah, I remember being annoyed at that error when I first started reading the comic. It's not an uncommon misconception though.

[Bavarian itP]

The HALF-orc never said what all five feats were. I think Hold The Line works for this. The HO did specify that Roy needed to charge.

EWP: Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes, Spring Attack, Dodge, Mobility.

Unless you want to argue that he doesn't have EWP and just eats the -4 on attacks, there is no wiggle room.

[ciopo]

5 feat might simply be what he means as invested to make it work, it could well be he has more feats, but those 5 are the one that allow this.

I wouldn't count EWP among these, hold the line seems very likely, kinda mandatory really for making 2 AoO for one charge

Actual error is : shouldnt he have 20ft of reach, not 15?

I don't remember if it's known what level they were at that time, but if that half ogre is a 6th level fighter, that's 7 feats he would have.

I don't read the strip anymore, but I never felt they were less than at least 9ish level

[H_H_F_F]

As others have said, it's about forcing more AoO triggers, and about effectively ending a turn. A tripper needs as much reach as they can get to control more of the battlefield, and to trip enemies in places where they can't attack from prone, not to get more AoOs on the same foe.


I don't read the strip anymore, but I never felt they were less than at least 9ish level

Durkon casts a fifth level spell before their first fight with Xykon. There are entire threads devoted to figuring out the levels of different characters, but you're pretty much correct that they start around level 8-9.

[Beni-Kujaku]

Did everyone else know about this and I'm just an idiot? I tried to find the discussion thread for comic 216 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html), but either they didn't exist back then or weren't archived back that far. But regardless, the build doesn't work, or at least it only allows for one AoO on approach. Which means combat reflexes is an almost entirely irrelevant feat.

The discussion threads were for several strips at the time: Here is the one for strips 216 to 221 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?6726-Order-of-the-Stick-September-I) (the actual discussion about 216 starts at page 3. Before that it's mostly about the Giant's birthday and the strip being late). The Giant acknowledges having screwed up the rules for Opportunity, and Hold the Line was already mentioned.

The Discussion Thread Index (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?31997-The-Discussion-Thread-Index) has all the links for all the discussion threads.

[Soranar]

You can make a proper battlefield control in melee though, it's just a mounted charger.

You get your own AoO with your lance (10 ft reach) and so does your mount (large so 10 ft reach)

Your feats: wild cohort, mounted combat, ride-by attack spirited charge

Your mount's feats : combat reflexes, stand still, hold the line

[Jay R]

You get your own AoO with your lance (10 ft reach) and so does your mount (large so 10 ft reach)

According to the stat block, a horse has a 5-foot reach.

[Remuko]

According to the stat block, a horse has a 5-foot reach.

yup thats because its a 3.0 holdover from Size(Tall) vs Size(Long). Long's usually have a natural reach of a size smaller than they are.

[Quertus]

It’s always fun when a game that’s been out of print and picked over so thoroughly for so long can still give someone an “aha” moment. Yeah, “beat them to a paste with 6 AoO” is not normally how melee control works. That said,



Also there are Dragon Feats, Magic Items, etc that allow you to have 2 or 3 AoO from the same triggering event.

The problem is these things are taxes with feats, taxes with wealth, etc. Spellcasters do control better with less taxes for most levels (but not all levels)

Tell me more about this cool “beat them to death with 6 AoO” tech!

[Soranar]

According to the stat block, a horse has a 5-foot reach.

According to the SRD 3.5 it's 10ft/5ft

even then the best wild cohort option is a camel using armor spikes which also has 10/5

[Ramza00]

It’s always fun when a game that’s been out of print and picked over so thoroughly for so long can still give someone an “aha” moment. Yeah, “beat them to a paste with 6 AoO” is not normally how melee control works. That said,




Tell me more about this cool “beat them to death with 6 AoO” tech!

This is not a comprehensive list for it is done from memory, and I remember there is more than this.

But Dragon 340 has Improved Combat Reflexes, and Greater Combat Reflexes. These are feats that require BAB 6 and 11 and allow a 2nd AoO from the same triggering event at a -5, and a 3rd at -10. Your number of AoOs per round are still limited by the Combat Reflexes feats but there are 1 or 2 spells, powers, and magic items in 3.5 that give you 1 more each. Prowess as a power, a MiC item, and a spell I forgot. Many of these extra AoO items and spells do take your immediate action though, or a buff you cast prior to combat and thus there are limits and action taxes not just more raw power.

Likewise the Fortuitous pathfinder weapon gives you one more AoO per round on the same target at a -5. I can not recall if these weapons stack if you have more than one Fortuitious weapon like 2 different spiked gauntlets. Likewise there are pathfinder spells like Line in the Sand and Litanty of Warding.

Pathfinder also introduces Combat Patrol which is awesome. And 3rd Party PF with Spheres of Might gives Combat Patrol and more AoO stuff by other names, likewise Dreamscarred Press with Warder, several different feats, etc, etc.

As you can see this is not a comprehensive list for I am not going to track down handbooks at this moment. Remember though when doing 2 or 3 AoO with the same triggering event, there are ways to get multiple triggering events so you can quickly be doing 6 or 9 AoOs per target and hopefully you killed the enemy with all these counter attacks.

[Remuko]

According to the SRD 3.5 it's 10ft/5ft

even then the best wild cohort option is a camel using armor spikes which also has 10/5

thats its space/reach. it takes up a 10ft space and has 5ft reach. thats what that says and means.

[Soranar]

thats its space/reach. it takes up a 10ft space and has 5ft reach. thats what that says and means.

wow I have been reading that wrong for ages

the combo still works if your mount has hold the line but it's not as powerful for sure

[Ramza00]

wow I have been reading that wrong for ages

the combo still works if your mount has hold the line but it's not as powerful for sure
Fleshraker Animal Companion with Share Spells and someone casting Permanency on you fix this. This type of dinosaurs are bipedal and thus have the tall reach.

But like I said earlier spellcasting does it mostly better.

[Seward]

As mentioned, it's more for fighting multiple opponents, but one foe could provoke multiple AoOs by different methods. Such as stand up, move, and then fire a ranged weapon (with some way to stand faster or move for free).

Indeed, both characters I had with combat reflexes used that approach with bow-archers.

Trip them (most are medium and only moderately strong). Bow can not be used if prone.
when they stand up, disarm the bow.
if they try to pick it up after disarm, you just hit them, then destroy them with a full attack next round.
if not, you have reduced them to a crappy melee attack, assuming they do not waste their action just drawing a new weapon.

Then you kill them the next round. A variant my pathfinder tank used because her cmb was crappy (size small, str 5) but her attack mod and adamantine-weapon-damage was respectable was to just sunder the damn bow as an Aoo.

You need a plan for a 5' step. Various reach or feat options can assist with that, as can rendering the person prone.

A similar approach was used vs spellcasters. Move next to them and trip. Hit them (or sunder holy symbol spell comp pouch etc on standing aoo). If they 5' step, you full attack next round after making your save (both of my chars with combat reflexes had great saves). If they move away to avoid your full attack you trip them again and full attack them while prone next round. If they do not know you have combat reflexes you often do nail them with that second trip attack. Worst case they use an escape spell...that is a round they are not messing up the party, still useful. Bonus points if somebody cast silence on your character before the enemy acts.

[tyckspoon]

It’s always fun when a game that’s been out of print and picked over so thoroughly for so long can still give someone an “aha” moment. Yeah, “beat them to a paste with 6 AoO” is not normally how melee control works. That said,




Tell me more about this cool “beat them to death with 6 AoO” tech!

Look up 'Jack B. Quick.' It's -insanely- feat intensive due to feat chain prereqs and pretty much requires either an inadvisably large number of Fighter levels or doing something like Chaos Shuffling elf racial bonus feats, but the highlights as I recall are:

Snap Kick - when you attack somebody, make a bonus unarmed attack.
Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit - both basically allow you to trigger AoO on 'somebody attacked me'. May be some GM dependence on convincing somebody that these are two different triggers so both can work.
Double Hit - when you AoO, you can also make an attack with your dual-wielded weapon.

..so when you get hit, you strike back with 2x AoO (Karmic + Robilar's activating), + 2 off-hand hits from Double Hit, + 2 Unarmed Strikes from Snap Kick. And that's the conservative reading where Snap Kick doesn't trigger again from each and every melee attack.

Also you probably try to fit Improved Trip and/or Knockdown in there, so you prone the dude on your first hit, triggering another AoO-Double Hit-Snap Kick set.

[MultitudeMan]

Look up 'Jack B. Quick.'

Sure, good idea. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?329040-Famous-Optimized-Character-Builds-Archive&p=17031211#post17031211)

[spaceman1997]

Just a couple weeks ago one of the DM's for our player group (we alternate campaigns and DM's every week) posted about this very rule (well specifically the Pathfinder version) on our Discord server. Pretty much immediately, both myself and the third DM responded with "Yeah? We have a gentleman's agreement to ignore that rule as a homebrew." Apparently, the DM didn't realize that was an actual rule, despite having been DMing Pathfinder for 4+ years.

It's not even particularly unique in being a rule we ignored or homebrewed. My own game allows for Forced Movement to trigger AoO (cause that's hilarious and allows for creative tactics) and the other DM always grants at least 1 round where a character is dying before they kick the bucket (outside of really stupid deaths that are obviously insta-gibbs).

[Jay R]

yup thats because its a 3.0 holdover from Size(Tall) vs Size(Long). Long's usually have a natural reach of a size smaller than they are.

I think it's because horses can't reach ten feet with their teeth or legs.

[Remuko]

I think it's because horses can't reach ten feet with their teeth or legs.

its not just horses. theres tons of creatures like horses that yeah shouldnt have that kind of reach. and they were all " [size](long)" in 3.0 instead of "[size](tall)"

[Endarire]

As a level 1 Wizard, I've used grease to make foes trip and drop their stuff, thereby saving the party. Nothing similar ever happened when I played a low-level melee character: Either stuff died quickly from damage or it didn't.

[PraxisVetli]

even then the best wild cohort option is a camel using armor spikes

Take away the space/reach and all context, and this is gold.
Highly optimized druids exclusively use spiked camels for companions.