Do the New Crit Rules Benefit Champions?

[SociopathFriend]

Relatively simple question.

In the next installment of 5e- Critical hits are (so far as I am aware) only going to apply to weapon damage. No riders like Sneak Attack or Smite or, presumably, Battlemaster Maneuvers.

Assuming I have that right-

Given half of the Champion Subclass is all about Crits- would this end up making the Champion more desirable or less? Assuming nothing about the Fighter Class or Champion Subclass changes alongside our already-established suggested rule changes?

[kazaryu]

Relatively simple question.

In the next installment of 5e- Critical hits are (so far as I am aware) only going to apply to weapon damage. No riders like Sneak Attack or Smite or, presumably, Battlemaster Maneuvers.

Assuming I have that right-

Given half of the Champion Subclass is all about Crits- would this end up making the Champion more desirable or less? Assuming nothing about the Fighter Class or Champion Subclass changes alongside our already-established suggested rule changes?

assuming the champion subcalss remains as written (unlikely imo) i can't think it'll change much. the benefit is still relatively small compared to what others can do. i suppose it may even make it less desireable. as crit-fishing in general becomes less desirable if you can't crit smite or SA damage.

[Leon]

No, its a change that makes a not common occurrence rather bland. Its high point will getting Inspiration now rather than doing a might hit to the enemy. Champions will have slightly more occurrences of getting that bonus.

[SociopathFriend]

assuming the champion subcalss remains as written (unlikely imo) i can't think it'll change much. the benefit is still relatively small compared to what others can do. i suppose it may even make it less desireable. as crit-fishing in general becomes less desirable if you can't crit smite or SA damage.

I'd doubt the Champion would remain the same either given changing crit is basically changing half the subclass.

But we don't know what/if the Champion would become so I thought the only way to get anywhere was to ask like this.

[Delnatha]

A lot of champions were built around using something like a Flame Blade so that their crits which would come more often would double the 2d6 fire damage as well as weapon die damage. So those guys got nerfed even more than everybody else.

[shinakuma2]

Its high point will getting Inspiration now rather than doing a might hit to the enemy. Champions will have slightly more occurrences of getting that bonus.

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but the free inspiration is only triggered by a natural 20, so Champion (as written) doesn't reap that extra benefit.

[Leon]

Sorry to pee in your Cheerios, but the free inspiration is only triggered by a natural 20, so Champion (as written) doesn't reap that extra benefit.

eh well no loss then or benefit to the champion

[LudicSavant]

eh well no loss then or benefit to the champion

Oh there's definitely a loss to the Champion. The better (or at least, less bad) Champion setups were getting crit damage from more than base weapon damage.

[Naanomi]

The real loser is people with anti-crit abilities (like Spore Druid); since it is only for PvP now

[Kane0]

No change to the champion unless they get access to bonus damage dice from feats or magic items, and a loss for pretty much everyone else.

[Chaos Jackal]

For a baseline, bog-standard Champion? No benefit, no loss; the Champion is way behind in numbers regardless of whether or not a BM, for example, doubles their maneuver dice. They're just as weak in a vacuum as before.

For anything trying to use three Champion levels for increased crit range or for any Champion dipping, say, a few levels in rogue or paladin? Clear loss.

So ultimately, the new crit rules are a loss for the Champion as a whole, as they gain nothing from them and it nerfs any builds trying to expand upon the increased crit range via extra damage dice, which was more or less the only way of making something out of a Champion (and that something was far from great).

[Chronos]

Quoth Leon:

Its high point will getting Inspiration now rather than doing a might hit to the enemy.
Wait, inspiration on a crit is a real thing that's actually going to happen? That's not just the fever dream of some Internet homebrewer with no idea how to design a game?

Huh.

[stoutstien]

Wait, inspiration on a crit is a real thing that's actually going to happen? That's not just the fever dream of some Internet homebrewer with no idea how to design a game?

Huh.
Well it's a playtest. Based on how much Next changed during it's development it has about a 20% chance of making it to the final cut.

[Damon_Tor]

A lot of champions were built around using something like a Flame Blade so that their crits which would come more often would double the 2d6 fire damage as well as weapon die damage. So those guys got nerfed even more than everybody else.

Except that's weapon damage.

[PhantomSoul]

That's not just the fever dream of some Internet homebrewer with no idea how to design a game?

Huh.

I mean, pretty much yes though, apparently.

[LudicSavant]

Wait, inspiration on a crit is a real thing that's actually going to happen? That's not just the fever dream of some Internet homebrewer with no idea how to design a game?

Huh.

Right? It feels like something you'd find on a bad amateur homebrew site.

[JackPhoenix]

Except that's weapon damage.

It's not. It's extra damage from a magic item, but not the damage die of the weapon.

[Naanomi]

What about things like Shadow Blade?

[Talamare]

Assuming every class remains exactly the same

Pure Champion Fighter just got buffed!

Because Crit Rogues and Paladins just got huge nerfs

So, they are better because the competition just got a big hit...!
Yay...?

[PhantomSoul]

What about things like Shadow Blade?

2d8 is the specified Weapon Damage Die for Shadow Blade

[Damon_Tor]

It's not. It's extra damage from a magic item, but not the damage die of the weapon.

Seems like an arbitrary distinction without mechanical backing. The sword is explicitly the object dealing the extra damage, as opposed to class features like sneak attack and smite which say the damage is dealt by "you". To my knowledge there's no rule which says that "weapon damage" and "extra damage" are exclusive categories, nor is there evidence that such a distinction is the intention of the designers (and some evidence that it isn't, see Crawford's tweet here: https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/769595492082647041).

EDIT: Better post here responding to a user asking if the extra damage dice of Flame Tongue and Frost Brand can be rerolled with Great Weapon Fighting style: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/988291147058503680?s=20&t=KkldxZPBA0GzSOzj-aIMvg

Basic conclusion is that damage dice which come from the weapon in question (even a magic property of the weapon) are "weapon damage" and work for Savage Attacks, Great Weapon fighting, and presumably for the new crit rules of D&Done.

And yes, it would apply to all the damage of a Shadow Blade as well. Also the added dice from Elemental Weapon or Enlarge/Reduce. Anything which says "the weapon deals" the extra damage.

Unless there's something I'm missing.

[Naanomi]

2d8 is the specified Weapon Damage Die for Shadow Blade
Even when using a higher level slot? It just says 'the damage increases', not 'extra damage'