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View Full Version : Planescape:Torment in the Realms... *spoilers*



Charles Phipps
2007-11-29, 05:42 PM
Okay, I was actually considering introducing the Nameless One's story arc for a Planescape/Forgotten Realms Table-Top game. It's such a good story and my players are unfamiliar with the computer game, that I don't see any problem with actually putting it into the game for an epic storyline.

The issue, of course, is that this isn't a game totally focused around the Nameless One's doppleganger in this world but his storyline will just part and parcel of a much larger and epic tale that everyone will be having bits and pieces thereof.

Some basic logistic difficulties I'm considering.

* No Ressurection: Instead, I'm considering a more story-based version. The Nameless One in this campaign is trapped in a cycle of reincarnation. Aside from the fun Buddhism style allusions that can be drawn from this, it also makes the player characters desire to stay alive longer.

It also makes the practical issues more clear. The player character seizes the body of some poor child every time he's reborn.

* Broadening the Search for the Past: It's one thing in a computer game to have no answers but I was considering the possibilities of what the Nameless One really was in this FR game. What could a being like him do that's so damned awful that the gods themselves won't accept his soul?

* Forgotten Realms Tie-Ins: I'd very much like to tie this story into the rich lore of Forgotten Realms and have his Prime Material homeworld turn out to be intimately linked to his past and origins.

* Fun Ways of introducing it in game: I can't have our characters just running around asking "Where's Pharod?" and "Do you know who I am?" Especially since the quest for identity here will more be a gradual realization he's not who he always thought he was. So I'm open for interesting ways of bringing up the terrible past.

Basically, the horrible realization you're reborn and hounded by souls of the Damned.

stainboy
2007-11-29, 06:11 PM
Thread title could use a spoiler warning.

Anyway...

All that's required to go to the Lower Planes on death is that one have an evil alignment or worship an evil deity. The Nameless One wasn't trying to avoid some special curse that affected him because he was especially evil. He was just trying to dodge the same fate that all evil people in the D&D cosmology have. This is explained in-game, in the Civic Festhall, by one of the lectors. (The one with all the dialog about the planes and petitioners and such.)

However, the Nameless One, according to his own past incarnation, was especially evil. The "good" incarnation in the Fortress of Regrets (the Nameless One in his original life) claims that in life he was far worse than the mad incarnation or the practical incarnation, both of whom we know to be right bastards.

He never says exactly what he did, but several times the game implies that the Nameless One fought in the Blood War at some point. I can't remember every instance but numerous recovered memories are of the Blood War. Tying his original crimes to the Blood War would make sense as it establishes why the original Nameless One was so afraid to become a petitioner of the Lower Planes.

So my interpretation would be, the Nameless One fought in the Blood War, and in the process did horrible things to a lot of undeserving people.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-29, 07:34 PM
Spoilers so noted, still...

*warning, bad language*

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2005/20051205l.jpg

Is my opinion on spoilers regarding out of print games that are more than 7 years old.

goat
2007-11-29, 07:49 PM
So my interpretation would be, the Nameless One fought in the Blood War, and in the process did horrible things to a lot of undeserving people.

I never thought of it like that. I took it as the simple fact that the Blood War was between two evil sides fighting about the correct way to be evil, the simple fact that the Nameless One had chosen a side and decided to fight for it fixed him in the evil part of the alignment graph.

He did nothing to the undeserving as a part of the war; the war was just between evil factions, and in D&D killing something evil is normally a Good act.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-29, 07:53 PM
I never thought of it like that. I took it as the simple fact that the Blood War was between two evil sides fighting about the correct way to be evil, the simple fact that the Nameless One had chosen a side and decided to fight for it fixed him in the evil part of the alignment graph.

He did nothing to the undeserving as a part of the war; the war was just between evil factions, and in D&D killing something evil is normally a Good act.

As Trias proves, the Blood War isn't a good thing by any stretch of the imagination. Yes, it keeps the LE and CE factions occupied but it also results in a lot of mortals getting swept up in it as well.

goat
2007-11-29, 07:57 PM
Ah, I wasn't saying fighting in the war and killing evil things made him good, I was saying that fighting in the war and killing evil things didn't make him MORE evil than choosing to fight in the war in the first place.

MrNexx
2007-11-29, 09:27 PM
Thread title could use a spoiler warning.

The game is out of print. It is several years old. He no more needs to spoiler that than he needs to spoiler that the boat sinks in Titantic or that Gandalf comes back in Lord of the Rings.

Charles Phipps
2007-11-30, 02:54 AM
My basic idea is that the characters of Planescape: Torment are the most important part of the storyline. There's plenty of room for cohorts in the game and the unique nature of Sigil means that a lot of the subplots can be explored as a great fraction of the storyline.

Here's a theory I have so far...

The Original Incarnation: Long ago, there was someone so unbelievably evil that he did something unimaginable and the gods forsook him as a whole. I tend to think it's linked to the Blood War and I'm inclined to think that he might have had a hand in leading to it to his home world or perhaps even starting it (though that's unlikely). I'm open for other suggestions.

The gods, so repulsed by his actions, carved the Symbol of Torment into his body that he would descend to the Lowest Levels of the Nine Hells after death as punishment for what he'd done. Thus, our character seeks Ravel Puzzleweaver (NE F Night Hag Wizard 21) who proceeds to basically create a perpetual 9th level Magic Jar and Reincarnation effect variant with a Permanency spell.

I'm debating whether to go more epic though and eliminate Ravel's part for something more akin to "I was damned by the gods to never be able to rest." Though I'm not sure that works.

The player character's Mortality is the Major villain in the piece but no longer just a bound figure but an active player in things, containing a Dark Side to the player character's personality. I'm debating whether or not it's close to a Demigod in power as it absorbs the souls of those killed in the place of the character. I think that tends to fit the story theme even if it makes the monstrous thing unkillable by mortal hands.

I'm not sure you can really stat a thing like that.

So, the whole campaign will have the player character stalked by Shadows and Nightmares with memories after his visit to Sigil where he manages to draw the attention of his old enemy once more and gets a sense of haunting familiarity about the place.

At some point, I'd introduce most of the characters thereof (though I'll need to stat them out). I'm uninterested in most of the specific subplots but definitely I think the Ravel bits, Da'akon, Morte, Trias, and Denoirra subplots are most useful.

I'm also interested in someone amongst the Baatezu or Tanar'ri wanting to recruit our hero forcibly back into the Blood War.

SeekerInTheNight
2007-11-30, 03:02 AM
* Broadening the Search for the Past: It's one thing in a computer game to have no answers but I was considering the possibilities of what the Nameless One really was in this FR game. What could a being like him do that's so damned awful that the gods themselves won't accept his soul?


This point is actually brought up in the game pretty clearly. The search for the past has no answers because so many of the incarnations destroyed evidence or killed people who know things. Most of the incarnations were pretty damn competent (except for the one that thought Morte was his own skull, and chased him for a while before getting hit by a cart) and I'm pretty sure they're the reason their were so few answers.

DeathQuaker
2007-11-30, 08:04 AM
Are you going to do anything with the Mark of Torment? That was something TNO was always marked with and could not remove (even though other magical tattoos are removable). Perhaps the Mark could show up on each reincarnation, but it's not in an obvious place (like his back, so someone else would have to see it and point it out to him, a la Morte and the note carved into TNO's back).

The other factor is that TNO draws Tormented Souls to him... the people who travel with him all have their burdens to bear. The other party members could also have some tie to him... perhaps even be reincarnations of or have had past connections to previous incarnations of TNO. Some of them could be, at least in a broad sense, *always* TNO's companions, friends, lovers, and enemies.

At the same time, if this is a table top game with a party, you also have to make sure the other characters have their own individual importance, or it'll seem like you're favoring the one player as choice plot driver.

Keld Denar
2007-11-30, 08:33 AM
One thing I could not for the life of me figure out about that game, was how to shift your alignment with respect to law/chaos. I was able to move up and down the good/evil axis with very little effort through blatant conversation options. Law/chaos would have been an interesting path to choose, because most of the factions tend to have an affiliation with them. Also, I found a really good item that required you to be LG in order to use, and I carried it around with me through the whole game looking for a way to shift.

If I was you, I would do some research on the factions, and have them play a significant role in helping TNO on his quest for answers. They have lots of tremendous flavor that was just screaming to be told, but the game didn't go into very much depth on each, other than overal moralistic views.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-30, 08:39 AM
You might also like to consider this: What if TNO, did something so evil that the multiverse is slowly dieing (I'm repeating quotes from the game, bear with me)? What if TNO had something to do with the original split of the universe? What if TNO...started the blood war? Don't get me wrong, I know Yugoloths started it, but what if something TNO did was the catalyst for it? That could be, hands down, the SINGLE most evil act a mortal could do, provoking a war that would ravage the universe forever.

PnP Fan
2007-11-30, 10:16 AM
Just a thought. . .
What if TNO was the first murderer? Maybe he killed his brother, who was a faithful servant of the gods. You might even argue that this act was the first death in an otherwise near paradisial setting, beginning the downward spiral, and eventual destruction of the multiverse (as evil becomes an easier option than good). Then he was forced to walk the multiverse until the end, marked by the gods, etc. . . I'm sure you can come up with a name for him.

Not trying to start any RL discussions, but it is a story that may have resonance with some of your players (regardless of RL affiliations).

NerfTW
2007-11-30, 10:42 AM
The game is out of print. It is several years old. He no more needs to spoiler that than he needs to spoiler that the boat sinks in Titantic or that Gandalf comes back in Lord of the Rings.

Actually, it's still available in those random "value-packs" you find in the discount section of large stores. So it's still in print, but for less than $5, and it gets rotated in and out of the packs.


On the Nameless One's origins, I thought he himself caused the immortality through a spell cast by that witch lady? The original reason was that he wanted more time to attone for his sins. But the catch was he lost his memory whenever he "died", and someone else died in his place.

The Transcendent One was his mortality, and after the first mind wipe, was the one that caused all his subsequent mindwipes. (explaining why you can kill yourself in game and not lose your memory)

It was also implied that Mort had something to do with an early, if not his first incarnation. Not explicitely, but the memory of pulling him off the pillar implied that he caused Mort's punishment.

Manticorkscrew
2007-11-30, 10:48 AM
Maybe he stole fire from the Gods?

Perhaps he rebelled against the Gods and was cast down for his impertinence?

Or he was punished for mocking/hurting/killing a messianic figure? Or he was a messianic figure who failed to reach his full potential.

There are plenty of mythic or historical figures you could use as an inspiration. But in the Planescape: Torment game, the mystery behind this is important. It's effective because there isn't a canonical answer. It makes the first incarnations seem much worse if they are left to our imagination.

As for your other players:

Maybe various tragic events in their backstory were caused (directly or indirectly) by the Nameless One.

Or some of the biggest events in the world's history might have been precipitated by the Nameless One (or someone like him- add in a few red herrings and unsolvable mysteries here and there).

Maybe the inevitable conflict between the Elves and Dwarves was caused by a massacre of delegates from both sides (both races blaming the other) for which the Nameless One is the real culprit.

A few of the minor Bads, and some major NPCs should be former accomplices and friends of the Nameless One who were screwed over by his former lives (a la Ignus and Deionarra in Planescape: Torment).

I assume you're going to use the Transcendent One as a Big Bad?

Charles Phipps
2007-11-30, 01:42 PM
This point is actually brought up in the game pretty clearly. The search for the past has no answers because so many of the incarnations destroyed evidence or killed people who know things. Most of the incarnations were pretty damn competent (except for the one that thought Morte was his own skull, and chased him for a while before getting hit by a cart) and I'm pretty sure they're the reason their were so few answers.

Yes, the benefit is that you can pretty much justify any kind of memory or action that past Reincarnations have ever indulged themselves in. The character could be involved with a woman, a heinous villain, a great hero or any number of other things. The possibilities are endless.


Are you going to do anything with the Mark of Torment? That was something TNO was always marked with and could not remove (even though other magical tattoos are removable). Perhaps the Mark could show up on each reincarnation, but it's not in an obvious place (like his back, so someone else would have to see it and point it out to him, a la Morte and the note carved into TNO's back).

Yeah, the "Sign of the Gods" torment will show up as a tatoo on the character's back. It's not going to do much more than radiate a kind of vaguely malevolent energy that Druids and other people will be uncomfortable with. I think that this is mostly going to explain an Unfriendly reaction from the gods and others that people give him.


The other factor is that TNO draws Tormented Souls to him... the people who travel with him all have their burdens to bear. The other party members could also have some tie to him... perhaps even be reincarnations of or have had past connections to previous incarnations of TNO. Some of them could be, at least in a broad sense, *always* TNO's companions, friends, lovers, and enemies.

Very interesting *scribbles down that idea*


If I was you, I would do some research on the factions, and have them play a significant role in helping TNO on his quest for answers. They have lots of tremendous flavor that was just screaming to be told, but the game didn't go into very much depth on each, other than overal moralistic views.

One element that wasn't really touched upon was the fact that a lot of the Factions had relevance to the Nameless One's quest. The Godsmen are about using the various lives you lead to improve yourself, the "True Death" is never more applicable than to the Nameless one, and the Sensates are about living for life's various experiences.


Don't get me wrong, I know Yugoloths started it, but what if something TNO did was the catalyst for it? That could be, hands down, the SINGLE most evil act a mortal could do, provoking a war that would ravage the universe forever.

I personally like the issue that the Yugoloths may have used the Nameless one to trigger this particular conflict by perhaps leading one side or the other to believe that they could gain the potential infinite hosts of evil that the other does.

The "I'm the Biblical Caine equivalent" is also an interesting possibility.


It was also implied that Mort had something to do with an early, if not his first incarnation. Not explicitely, but the memory of pulling him off the pillar implied that he caused Mort's punishment.

I'm going to use variants on Annah, Morte, Trias, and Da'akon in the work. Though I haven't yet decided if I should use Falls from Grace.


I assume you're going to use the Transcendent One as a Big Bad?

Yeah, my idea is the Transcendent One's defeat will be the healing of the player character's soul. Though whether or not it'll condemn him to the Nine Hells or just bring a world of more torment down upon him is anyone's guess.

The other player characters are going to mostly dealing with their own sub-plots. One of them is a Bhaalspawn, another is doing her internship in preparation for becoming the Chosen of Mask, and another is discovering that his family heritage is filled with demons/devils. So, all of them have their own little plotlines to follow.