I have a question about the "Tippyverse"!

[SupahCabre]

I have been reading the rather infamous gem that is called the "Tippyverse", and I loved it so much! But I wish Tippy was still active, so I must ask you guys instead! It makes sense that the outer frontier has so many monsters, fiends, undead, dragons, and more, to ensure safe travel from city to city by conventional means, so having most humanoids live in huge heavily defended arcologies is extremely realistic. But if warforged and shadesteel golems are the law enforcement & military for the cities (as opposed to the outside villages that must use barbarians and fighters), what would be the place for Paladins? They are perhaps the most "civilized" and most powerful martial I can think of, and I can't think of a paladin in some crappy subsistence level iron age hamlet. On top of that, do spellswords and eldritch knights exist in the cities or are they just extinct (since people in the Wilds don't have the education to learn arcane magic)? Please let me know what you think!

[Seward]

I think 2nd season of Legend of Korra had flashbacks to such a world. Each human settlement basically had a god guarding it+massive fortifications and travel/hunting only worked via the god granting powers to the rare human who needed to go into the insanely magical/dangrous wilderness. Most failed to return anyway.

[Inevitability]

Giant cities with lots of people who have all of their basic needs met are a breeding ground for weird interests, hobbies, and artforms. A lot of eldritch knights might be city-dwellers with too much time on their hands who decide to try something weird and new. There's also the option of 'innate' arcane casters existing in the wilds, like sorcerers. I have no trouble imagining a backwoods sorcerer who ends up training in arms and armor to better protect himself.

I imagine paladins in the tippyverse are a bit different. The gods still have interests in the wilderness: perhaps they hate particular monsters and want them to be hunted down, perhaps they are worshipped by the hamlets and feel beholden to those, or perhaps they want ancient temples to remain consecrated and whole. I imagine most paladins are city-dwellers who have obeyed a divine call that has pulled them into the wilds.

But also: being a paladin isn't about full plate and longswords; it's about dedication, loyalty, divine grace, and indominable will. You can build high-dexterity paladins who prefer not to wear heavy armor, you can build paladins that fight barehanded, and you can definitely have a mud-splattered, scythe-wielding, rag-clad peasant who unquestionably enjoys the favor of Heironeous. In fact, that sort of thing seems like a prime way to subvert the expectations that players usually have around a class.

[Telonius]

Giant cities with lots of people who have all of their basic needs met are a breeding ground for weird interests, hobbies, and artforms. A lot of eldritch knights might be city-dwellers with too much time on their hands who decide to try something weird and new. There's also the option of 'innate' arcane casters existing in the wilds, like sorcerers. I have no trouble imagining a backwoods sorcerer who ends up training in arms and armor to better protect himself.

I imagine paladins in the tippyverse are a bit different. The gods still have interests in the wilderness: perhaps they hate particular monsters and want them to be hunted down, perhaps they are worshipped by the hamlets and feel beholden to those, or perhaps they want ancient temples to remain consecrated and whole. I imagine most paladins are city-dwellers who have obeyed a divine call that has pulled them into the wilds.

But also: being a paladin isn't about full plate and longswords; it's about dedication, loyalty, divine grace, and indominable will. You can build high-dexterity paladins who prefer not to wear heavy armor, you can build paladins that fight barehanded, and you can definitely have a mud-splattered, scythe-wielding, rag-clad peasant who unquestionably enjoys the favor of Heironeous. In fact, that sort of thing seems like a prime way to subvert the expectations that players usually have around a class.

Seconding this. Paladins can make sense wherever there is corruption to be uncovered and defeated - and that absolutely includes inside a Tippyverse city. Imagine a fearless reporter writing an expose against a member of the Mage's Guild, or a private investigator uncovering a plot that has gone beneath the notice of the Guard. A Tippyverse would support either one. From Tippy's original post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy):


What the cities are is a location for high level political intrigue, high level adventuring, and of high magic.

People don't usually think of "Paladin" when they think of intrigue, but it's in their toolkit: Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility), and Sense Motive; even Profession (for private investigator or reporter). There's even the "Harmonious Knight" ACF that can get Perform on your skill list; it wouldn't be an official thing, but it would be a rare DM who wouldn't allow Perform (wordsmith) for a character whose thing is supposed to be a reporter.

[King of Nowhere]

I can't think of a paladin in some crappy subsistence level iron age hamlet
I can't think of any better place for a paladin: among those in need, protecting people.
in fact, I can imagine whole paladin organizations in the big cities devoting themselves to go out and protect the subsistence hamlets outside. Sort of like humanitarian organizations doing charity in the poor countries, but with monsters to fight thrown in the mix.



People don't usually think of "Paladin" when they think of intrigue, but it's in their toolkit: Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility), and Sense Motive; even Profession (for private investigator or reporter). There's even the "Harmonious Knight" ACF that can get Perform on your skill list; it wouldn't be an official thing, but it would be a rare DM who wouldn't allow Perform (wordsmith) for a character whose thing is supposed to be a reporter.
too bad the paladin only gets 2 skill points per level, is more or less forced to spend one of those on ride to use his main class feature, and he suffers too much from MAD to be able to afford a decent int score.
If I had a player wanting to play that kind of paladin, I'd buff the class at 4 skill points per level

[Batcathat]

People don't usually think of "Paladin" when they think of intrigue, but it's in their toolkit: Diplomacy, Knowledge (Nobility), and Sense Motive; even Profession (for private investigator or reporter). There's even the "Harmonious Knight" ACF that can get Perform on your skill list; it wouldn't be an official thing, but it would be a rare DM who wouldn't allow Perform (wordsmith) for a character whose thing is supposed to be a reporter.

As someone with normally close to zero interest in playing paladins, I must admit I'm rather tempted by the idea of a paladin as a hardboiled PI with a heart of gold. That seems way more fun than the typical knight in shining armor archetype.

[Seward]

and I can't think of a paladin in some crappy subsistence level iron age hamlet.

My wife's first 3.0 character used in a long campaign was a rogue/paladin of a death god, in a "Britain just after Rome pulled out all the troops for a civil war" type scenario. Low tech, no mount, no armor beyond light armor. She was a diplomonster that switched back and forth from diplomacy to Darth Vader levels of intimidation as she was normally friendly but busted out the Death God dark word balloons when that wasn't getting the job done. She was also a solid light infantry with good saves and evasion, if a bit fragile. But then we were all fragile, we coped using tactics, information gathering and being willing to run the hell away. She might be fearless but she wasn't stupid.

Paladins were not uncommon in the campaign world, as Lawful deities were fairly common and religion was important, but the absolute fearlessness tended to lead to short careers. She took a NPC paladin as a cohort, mostly to keep that NPC from getting herself killed doing something out of her league (so then she traveled with us, a party punching above its weight constantly while at a level disadvantage and low WBL...but the cohort did survive so I guess my wife's choice was a good one).

Paladin is attitude, not gear. My own best paladin had no actual paladin levels but mechanically was a chosen one of her deity, was a high AC melee with great saves, adequate damage and a little magic, would lose most of her powers if she violated the ethos and slowly accumulated most of the iconic paladin powers by other means (could detect evil with a compass that pointed at the most evil person in range, could summon a celestial pony for...1 round. Could lay on hands 1/day. Could channel positive energy for 1d3 heal/damage and brighten the light levels by 1 rank for a round). She was never actually immune to fear but her save vs fear was so high she was never affected by a fear effect in her entire career. Ditto disease, as fort save was also stupid high.

She also weighed 30 pounds, was short even for a halfling, fought in basically a poorly designed costume of her deity (not plate mail) and had no ranks in Kn Religion, but her intuitive understanding of her ethos was mostly right, even if nobody listened to her when she KNEW that the priest of her religion was a fake based on behavior. Or as an introduction letter from a high priest of her religion said said early in her career "Yes, we know how it looks but she really is blessed by our deity".

Her outcomes were often better if she was teamed with an actual priest of her deity. But she tried really hard!

I've also run a mounted-combat "paladin"-gnome of a deity of love, family and art based on a druid-variant chasse, again with no actual paladin levels but here baby roc animal companion eventually became celestial and she was the best mounted combat character I ever played. Both she and her bird tried to sing (her deity was big on singing even without talent, the enthusiasm mattered more) but she was more the "smite" type of paladin than the "diplomat" kind. Sadly unlike my wife's paladin she lacked the talent of intimidation. She really wanted to manifest a scary "Mom Voice" to chastize bad people who didn't take care of their family obligations.

I've only played actual paladins in CRPGs, although I did try to get a paladin/monk/sorcerer into a online tabletop game once, modeled on a Jedi Knight, but the GM thought it was "too powerful". I had to be polite...even in those early 3.0 days I knew it was a whole mess of bad optimization choices, even if I did manage to get that character through the Neverwinter Nights 1 CRPG anyway.

[SupahCabre]

Giant cities with lots of people who have all of their basic needs met are a breeding ground for weird interests, hobbies, and artforms. A lot of eldritch knights might be city-dwellers with too much time on their hands who decide to try something weird and new. There's also the option of 'innate' arcane casters existing in the wilds, like sorcerers. I have no trouble imagining a backwoods sorcerer who ends up training in arms and armor to better protect himself.

I imagine paladins in the tippyverse are a bit different. The gods still have interests in the wilderness: perhaps they hate particular monsters and want them to be hunted down, perhaps they are worshipped by the hamlets and feel beholden to those, or perhaps they want ancient temples to remain consecrated and whole. I imagine most paladins are city-dwellers who have obeyed a divine call that has pulled them into the wilds.

But also: being a paladin isn't about full plate and longswords; it's about dedication, loyalty, divine grace, and indominable will. You can build high-dexterity paladins who prefer not to wear heavy armor, you can build paladins that fight barehanded, and you can definitely have a mud-splattered, scythe-wielding, rag-clad peasant who unquestionably enjoys the favor of Heironeous. In fact, that sort of thing seems like a prime way to subvert the expectations that players usually have around a class.
Well when you put it like that, paladins can be just about anywhere! Their might even be paladins who are recovering alcoholics that, after his career was ruined and right before he commits suicide, he goes to the church for salvation. After making an oath, swearing off alcohol and partying, he's now a redeemed champion of his deity, spreading awareness of the dangers of alcohol wherever he goes!

I think it was mentioned in the original thread that the only casters outside the cities are: Druids, Warlocks, and Sorcerers. Druids are the most common spellcaster in the Wild especially since people can be trained as a druid, and they follow a religion and traditions, so their tribes are far more organized than others. You'd find more Rangers in these villages than fighter or barbarian guards, and an overall bigger population in these villages than regular ones because of nature magic making life easier. Higher level ones would build temples for nature dieties.

Warlocks are criminals kicked out of cities for devil worship, so their coven would be based on serving the warlock and his patron. He protects them from monsters they can't fight (immunity to mundane weapons), and in return they must do what he says. I'd imagine multiple villagers pledge loyalty to the patron, so multiple spell casters protecting the cult in a sort of demonic senate. I imagine lot's of half-fiends and tieflings in this community.

If a person was born a sorcerer in the Wilds, they would quickly form a cult as a sort of tribal chieftan, a medieval noble with divine bloodline. I don't think sorcerers can cast while wearing armor, so they'd have big problems. Not sure how their tribal villages would look like, so not gonna go any further hahaha! But it's definitely rarer unless the sorcerers purposely search for other sorcerers and try to have babies to produce more. Keep the bloodline strong!

[Seward]

Sorcerers can cast in armor but it has the usual arcane restrictions.

Thistledown mithril chain works for anybody, as does a mithril buckler.
Heavier armor has % chance of failure, unless your spell has no somatic components or you have still spell.

As you say, if your armor options are things like Hide armor, it won't go very well normally. But a sorcerer determined to make armor work can be designed, even just with core rules and mundane armor.

My very first 3.0 character was a human sorcerer with feats spent on light+medium armor proficiency and his L1 spells were Truestrike and Feather Fall. High strength, middling cha, dex, con, used a longspear and javelins, with a tower shield (not proficient) on his back if he wanted to go seriously defensive. It worked about as well as any other L1 sorcerer. I've done 1-20 builds along those lines. You get still spell eventually just to broaden options but you get a lot of pretty good spells going just verbal that make an interesting spell mix.

[Inevitability]

I think it was mentioned in the original thread that the only casters outside the cities are: Druids, Warlocks, and Sorcerers.

I think that tippy, the guy whose baseline Caster Downtime Activity consists of building infinitely repeating traps creating some useful trade good, might not consciously think of paladins as 'casters' for what that's worth.

I'm not saying nobody in tippy's games has ever played a paladin, but I am saying they probably never took the third level.

[SupahCabre]

Sorcerers can cast in armor but it has the usual arcane restrictions.

Thistledown mithril chain works for anybody, as does a mithril buckler.
Heavier armor has % chance of failure, unless your spell has no somatic components or you have still spell.

As you say, if your armor options are things like Hide armor, it won't go very well normally. But a sorcerer determined to make armor work can be designed, even just with core rules and mundane armor.

My very first 3.0 character was a human sorcerer with feats spent on light+medium armor proficiency and his L1 spells were Truestrike and Feather Fall. High strength, middling cha, dex, con, used a longspear and javelins, with a tower shield (not proficient) on his back if he wanted to go seriously defensive. It worked about as well as any other L1 sorcerer. I've done 1-20 builds along those lines. You get still spell eventually just to broaden options but you get a lot of pretty good spells going just verbal that make an interesting spell mix.

Wow your character sounds like a badass! A half warrior half mage gish made purely for survival. I wonder what's the highest level the character survived to? In this Tippyverse, there's realistically too many monsters (especially gricks, ogres, and undead) for people to leave the palisaded towns without crazy amounts of protection and somehow acquire magical weapons. Low level sorcerers can't go into the Underdark and trade Mithral from the Dwarves, let alone mine it themselves without risk of dying. And leveling is hard for a caster!

Edit: I also wonder, with the prevalence of druid circles dominating communities outside the cities, I wonder if clerics (especially Healing, Animal, Plant, Sun, Water, Earth, Air domains) would exist in the Wilds like paladins do. Would a plant/animal cleric work with a druid or would they fight?

[Maat Mons]

Is leveling hard? I mean, you can hit level 9 just off smushing toads. Or if you like more dangerous game, you can hunt rats instead. Once you hit level 9, you need to move up to CR 2 enemies to keep gaining experience, but by then you’ve got a decent bit of power at your disposal.

I’ll focus on rats, because in a faux medieval society, there are probably lots of those around. They have 1 HP, so you can one-hit-kill them with Sonic Snap. If you can manage to have a cat familiar, it can help you in your rat slaying. Of course, getting a cat familiar requires 100 gp in unspecified magical materials. Who knows if the scattered and impoverished refugees in the wild areas have ready access to whatever it is the ritual requires.

You need to kill 14 28 rats to hit level 2.
You then need to kill 26 54 more rats to hit level 3.
Then it’s 40 81 more rats to hit level 4.
54 108 more rats to hit level 5.
66 135 more rats to hit level 6.
80 162 more rats to hit level 7.
108 219 more rats to hit level 8.
And finally, 160 320 more rats to hit level 9.
Congratulations, you’ve killed 548 1107 rats! You have now transcended rat killing!
Go kill some bugbears.

Edit: Rats are CR 1/8, not CR 1/4.

[Quertus]

and had no ranks in Kn Religion,

I've only played actual paladins in CRPGs, although I did try to get a paladin/monk/sorcerer into a online tabletop game once, modeled on a Jedi Knight, but the GM thought it was "too powerful". I had to be polite...even in those early 3.0 days I knew it was a whole mess of bad optimization choices, even if I did manage to get that character through the Neverwinter Nights 1 CRPG anyway.

Loved your description of your not-a-Paladin. It reminded me, though, of the strange quirk of my tables that clerics never take K:Religion. :smallconfused:

I tend to be less polite in talking about those whose understanding of the game labels such UP things as “too powerful” (minimum “I do not think those words mean what you think they mean”). Still, it’s worth being 3 levels behind a Wizard for MAD bonuses to AC and saves, right? :smalltongue:

[SupahCabre]

This makes me think about how the "Tippyverse" would look like in today's 5th edition d&d. Especially since Wish and Simulacrum has been buffed and spell traps are gone. Probably similar (too many op monsters to not have megacities) but wish-simulacrum wars would break the world.