OOTS #1267 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Crusher]

The undermining is underway!

[Windscion]

OMG the word puzzle ad!
Really, there are a lot of nice touches.
Why should he know synonyms for blue? He's no paladin! Gotta give you that one, demon roach.

[RMS Oceanic]

Xykon's vocab game is on point.

[hamishspence]

Quinton's ads are still funny.

[remetagross]

The ad thing really killed me :smallbiggrin:

Good thing Xykon's being so oblivious with regard to the MitD. However, the Inevitable will probably catch on that something is up.

[hamishspence]

Modron , not Inevitable. Modrons are either Living Constructs, or Outsiders that just happen to look like Constructs, depending on the source. Inevitables are always regular Constructs.

[Sir_Norbert]

I needed a good laugh today. Thanks for this one.

[Windscion]

Good thing Xykon's being so oblivious with regard to the MitD. However, the Inevitable will probably catch on that something is up.
I am more concerned about Quinton (or maybe Greyview) noticing Blackwing (thanks for correction meta).

[Metastachydium]

Modron , not Inevitable. Modrons are either Living Constructs, or Outsiders that just happen to look like Constructs, depending on the source. Inevitables are always regular Constructs.

Also sprach das Marut!


The ad thing really killed me :smallbiggrin:

(Are we sure modrons aren't somehow EVIL in this 'verse?)


Good thing Xykon's being so oblivious with regard to the MitD. However, the Inevitable will probably catch on that something is up.

The quinton has absolutely no interest in any of that. Redcloak might be a bigger problem, especially since the Monster is getting less and less subtle.


Darkwing.

Name's Blackwing. He's a raven, not a duck!

[2.5 cats]

Errata?

Didn't Xykon just fail by saying "fifteen"? Maybe he should've said "Seventeen."...? Fifteen and Thirteen both have two syllables.

[hamishspence]

It's the number of letters, not the number of syllables, that needs to be Odd.

[Peelee]

Also sprach das Marut!
One of these days I should learn that language.

Name's Blackwing. He's a raven, not a duck!
When you're in trouble you don't call BW.

[Reboot]

Xykon's managing better than I expected with the word stuff.

Looks like we're about to get a change of scene.

[SlashDash]

This is pure genius. More showing how team evil doesn't get along with the comedy gold of the monster actually trying to use this to his advantage.

I can't help but think of Chekov's familiar here.
Either this means team evil is going to spot him - or that he heard everything and now Roy should know about this issue.

I'm wondering if characters cast a spell they actually say it out loud and count as a sentence (V vs the Druid would imply that). Maybe they can just get him to cast the wrong spell?

[Dame_Mechanus]

Despite what O-Chul may think, it's increasingly clear that the MitD is making his choice about whose side he's on... even if he isn't fully cognizant of the implications just yet.

[Metastachydium]

One of these days I should learn that language.

There's a beast in every Austrian that stirs when you put… Um… German stuff in his path or something.


When you're in trouble you don't call BW.

Well, you can try, but V's not impressed and would not recommend.

[Reboot]

(Are we sure modrons aren't somehow EVIL in this 'verse?)
Well, I'm not seeing midrolls as Lawful With A Capital L, that's for sure!

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Monster in the Dark is getting a little obvious about that allegiance, methinks.

[Arkain]

The M(VP)itD strikes again. The only question is if and when team evil will catch on to what's actually happening.

[Ivrytwr]

I am enjoying the ads!
Plus MitD being annoying on purpose.

Thanks Giant.

[Tzardok]

One of these days I should learn that language.


What, German?

Incidentally, I would say "der Marut". Inevitables are treated as grammatically male in the Monster Manual... books.

[Psyren]

I'm blatantly stealing the pop-up ads thing for all my modrons and inevitables going forward.

...Aww crap, now it has me playing the game...of... words!

[Metastachydium]

Incidentally, I would say "der Marut". Inevitables are treated as grammatically male in the Monster Manual.

Hm. I figured that as constructs they are as sexless as it gets, hence the neuter. You sure have a point there, though.


I'm blatantly stealing the pop-up ads thing for all my modrons and inevitables going forward.

Make sure you have them Value Your Privacy and be serious about their Legitimate Interests!

[Mike Havran]

Man, Xykon is sharp. And MitD is really pushing his luck now. And Blackwing, for that matter. Xykon might remember him.

[InvisibleBison]

MitD is being dangerously obvious in his attempt to subvert Team Evil's goals here. Even if we assume that no one overheard his remark in panel 7, despite it not being marked as a whisper, I'd say that there's a good chance Xykon at least has figured out why MitD is asking him all these questions.

[Reboot]

MitD is being dangerously obvious in his attempt to subvert Team Evil's goals here. Even if we assume that no one overheard his remark in panel 7, despite it not being marked as a whisper, I'd say that there's a good chance Xykon at least has figured out why MitD is asking him all these questions.

O-Chul should have tought him to use thought balloons... 💭

[Tzardok]

Hm. I figured that as constructs they are as sexless as it gets, hence the neuter. You sure have a point there, though.


Grammatical gender has next to nothing to real sex. See also "das Mädchen" (the girl), "die Wolke" (the cloud) and "der Wahnsinn" (insanity).

[Agi Hammerthief]

what’s up with the „not a paladin“ ?

[Metastachydium]

Grammatical gender has next to nothing to real sex.

Grammatical gender is stupid and its face is stupid! (I.e. yes, I know. I just like to pretend there's a measure of balance and order in the world.)


See also "das Mädchen" (the girl),

That's just the diminutive at work, though. Ancient Greek did pretty much the same with -ιον.


"die Wolke" (the cloud) and "der Wahnsinn" (insanity).

See also all the French linguists trying to figure out whether CoViD is masculine or feminine.

[ZhonLord]

Initial thoughts. On. This. Page. About xykon getting teased.

1. I love that the Quinton is straight up calling Xykon a senile old man. It's amusing to know that even pure lawful beings have a sense of humor.

2. It may seem like MITD is pushing his luck, but everyone in that group (as well as us as the readers) knows that if the situation were reversed Xykon would totally be asking similar questions to mess with Redcloak or whoever else was the one who had to watch what they say. Turnabout is fair play lich-boy.

3. I have to wonder if Team Stick is going to try and trick xykon the same way MITD is, to see if he'll fall for it from someone else - especially in a fit of anger.

[Carl]

Yikes, did not expect the MITD to be so blatant. I get the feeling if they did actually stumble onto the gate somehow he might actually attack team evil.

[Doug Lampert]

The ad thing really killed me :smallbiggrin:

Good thing Xykon's being so oblivious with regard to the MitD. However, the Inevitable will probably catch on that something is up.

He is quite aware that the MitD is trying to get him to goof up on the odd letter thing, he just (presumably) does not yet know why he's doing it, yet.

[Peelee]

Grammatical gender has next to nothing to real sex. See also "das Mädchen" (the girl), "die Wolke" (the cloud) and "der Wahnsinn" (insanity).

Aaaaand a reminder of why I keep putting off learning German.

[Reboot]

Yikes, did not expect the MITD to be so blatant. I get the feeling if they did actually stumble onto the gate somehow he might actually attack team evil.

Gate? What Gate?

[Peelee]

See also all the French linguists trying to figure out whether CoViD is masculine or feminine.

The real shame of it is the French are the one people who could easily neutralize everything. At least, formally.

[Flame of Anor]

What is the capital of Anywhere?


what’s up with the „not a paladin“ ?

The demon roach is referring to the Sapphire Guard, who commonly use a lot of synonyms for "blue" (as in "Sapphire Guard" and "Azure City").

[Tzardok]

Grammatical gender is stupid and its face is stupid! (I.e. yes, I know. I just like to pretend there's a measure of balance and order in the world.)

I like grammatical gender. It means you don't have to deal with things like zhe or hir.


That's just the diminutive at work, though. Ancient Greek did pretty much the same with -ιον.

I know. It's just my easiest example for a grammatically neutral person. Of course, it's also an example how specific genders can come to be over the course of a language's evolution.


See also all the French linguists trying to figure out whether CoViD is masculine or feminine.

Easiest way to do: Use the same gender as whatever French for virus is.

Edit: I think we've stumbled away from the topic. Mea culpa. :smallredface:

[Psyren]

Grammatical gender is stupid and its face is stupid! (I.e. yes, I know. I just like to pretend there's a measure of balance and order in the world.)

I strongly suggest that you not study language if that's what you're looking for :smalltongue:


MitD is being dangerously obvious in his attempt to subvert Team Evil's goals here. Even if we assume that no one overheard his remark in panel 7, despite it not being marked as a whisper, I'd say that there's a good chance Xykon at least has figured out why MitD is asking him all these questions.

They might just chalk it up to him being an annoying kid. They seem to be blissfully unaware of his development, both intellectual and moral.


Man, Xykon is sharp. And MitD is really pushing his luck now. And Blackwing, for that matter. Xykon might remember him.

I think an even bigger danger here is the Quinton. It will almost certainly notice a seemingly random bird acting in a very orderly.... fashion.

With no specifics on what its contractees are looking for, it has a reason to pay attention for any anomaly at all.

[GooeyChewie]

I can’t wait until Xykon figures out he can cause chaos by mixing British and American spellings. He can end one sentence with color. And then another with behaviour.

[Peelee]

I like grammatical gender. It means you don't have to deal with things like zhe or hir.

English doesn't have grammatical gender and I still don't have to deal with things like zhe or hir. "They" is a perfectly good pronoun base already.

[Mastikator]

Every time the pupper speaks I love the him a little bit more

[Metastachydium]

I like grammatical gender. It means you don't have to deal with things like zhe or hir.

Quite on the contrary. In languages without grammatical gender there are no gendered pronouns and therefore no abominable hybrids borne out of them either.


I know. It's just my easiest example for a grammatically neutral person. Of course, it's also an example how specific genders can come to be over the course of a language's evolution.

True enough!


Easiest way to do: Use the same gender as whatever French for virus is.

That was exactly the issue! People kept using the correct gender for virus when they should have been using the one for disease.


I strongly suggest that you not study language if that's what you're looking for :smalltongue:

I studied Greek. I wept. A lot.

[Resileaf]

What is the capital of Anywhere?

Xykon just told you, it's 'No clue at all'!

[ZhonLord]

Every time the pupper speaks I love the him a little bit more

And Xykon replied to his *ahem* "gray view" in a manner that shows he's much more accommodating to the warg than Redcloak ever was.

[Tzardok]

That was exactly the issue! People kept using the correct gender for virus when they should have been using the one for disease.

That reminds me that I once heard that number one cause of divorces in Germany was arguing on wether it was called "die Nutella" or "das Nutella". :smallbiggrin: It's das Nutella. :smalltongue:


I studied Greek. I wept. A lot.

I wish I knew Greek. I only learned Latin.

[Fyraltari]

Grammatical gender is stupid and its face is stupid! (I.e. yes, I know. I just like to pretend there's a measure of balance and order in the world.)
Nah, it's pretty neat. The issue is in tying it up with human gender. Bring back abstract and physical, dammit!




See also all the French linguists trying to figure out whether CoViD is masculine or feminine.

Nah, the linguists were quite happy to go with the general consensus of masculine. The académiciens were the ones who decided to be a pain.

Edit:

The real shame of it is the French are the one people who could easily neutralize everything. At least, formally.

What do you mean?

[Timy]

Nah, the linguists were quite happy to go with the general consensus of masculine. The académiciens were the ones who decided to be a pain.



It has me wonder if another language has also a group of people who decide how is the correct way to speak...

[b_jonas]

I like this because if Xykon messes up then the Gated Quinton will punish Redcloak, possibly even killing him, per the description of the Gate spell.

[hroþila]

Bold of English speakers with their "he" and their "she" and their "his" and their "her" and their compounds in "-man" to look down on other languages with grammatical gender.

Anyway, I feel MitD might be pushing it. At this rate his aura of uselessness will stop protecting him eventually.

[Fyraltari]

It has me wonder if another language has also a group of people who decide how is the correct way to speak...

They don't. They just act like they do.

[KorvinStarmast]

Looks like we're about to get a change of scene. Hope so. Nice, fun jokey stuff, but Redcloak nails it with
Not talking is a choice it's never too late to make.
Nice variation on :thog: "Talkie-man talk too much!"

MiTD: pushing the boundaries.

Redcloak: "Skip ad!"
*Applause*

[Rack]

I can’t wait until Xykon figures out he can cause chaos by mixing British and American spellings. He can end one sentence with color. And then another with behaviour.

Easier and more in character for him to just add “you moron” to the end of every sentence.

[bunsen_h]

1. I love that the Quinton is straight up calling Xykon a senile old man. It's amusing to know that even pure lawful beings have a sense of humor.

The way I read it, the Quinton is showing a lot of computer-like behaviour. I think it would respond to a similar cue in similar fashion regardless of the age of the speaker. It's going to take any opportunity to get mortal beings involved in logical processes. I don't think that my phone and computer are regularly spitting out ads for "decrease the age of your brain!" games because my brain is mush -- that is, I don't think it's a targeted operation. I could be wrong, of course.

[Sutremaine]

I wonder why Redcloak isn't telling the MitD to knock it off. If the Modron disappears, any replacement is going to be coming out of Redcloak's soul.

[masamune1]

I think if the Quinton notices anything about the MitD it will be that the Monster actually spoke his plan aloud when walking right next to the Quinton rather than thinking it to himself.

[Peelee]

What do you mean?
The académiciens. And:

They don't. They just act like they do.
Is why I said "at least, formally". :smallwink:

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm thinking about all of those dead worlds, lost to the snarl. Maybe fragments survive? As an app.


It has me wonder if another language has also a group of people who decide how is the correct way to speak...Most try (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_language_regulators). Note that there are three in America.

[Fyraltari]

The académiciens. And:

Is why I said "at least, formally". :smallwink:

Pardon?

[gatemansgc]

xykon actually succeeding!

also i can't wait to see just what random ads the quinton is going to have each chapter!

[Peelee]

Pardon?

Post fixed. Small issue I had with the Multiquote.

[Fyraltari]

Post fixed. Small issue I had with the Multiquote.

Even "formally" they don't have that kind of power.

[Debatra]

Bold of English speakers with their "he" and their "she" and their "his" and their "her" and their compounds in "-man" to look down on other languages with grammatical gender.

Those pronouns are meant to refer to actual living things with a biological sex to describe rather than attaching a gender to every word, and the suffix "man" is actually gender-neutral despite what the people attempting to replace it with "person" would have you believe.

[Sorator]

I think an even bigger danger here is the Quinton. It will almost certainly notice a seemingly random bird acting in a very orderly.... fashion.

With no specifics on what its contractees are looking for, it has a reason to pay attention for any anomaly at all.

I don't think the Quinton is likely to bring Blackwing up, even if it does notice Blackwing. The Quinton is performing a set list of services:

Accompany Team Evil while they search behind the doors in the canyon
Assist in restraining hostile creatures found within
Keep a mental record of which doors TE entered, in what order, and the physical dimensions and orientation of each room they visit

Blackwing might qualify as a hostile creature, but Blackwing is not within/behind the doors in the canyon, so the Quinton is not compelled to point Blackwing out. I suspect the Quinton will not do anything beyond that list of services and offering ads. Maybe if Redcloak asks the right kind of question, the Quinton will answer and give more information that Redcloak expected, but I don't think that's especially likely?


I think if the Quinton notices anything about the MitD it will be that the Monster actually spoke his plan aloud when walking right next to the Quinton rather than thinking it to himself.

For the same reason, I don't think that's much of a concern, though it's a good observation that MitD was speaking aloud.

[Aquillion]

The ad thing really killed me :smallbiggrin:

Good thing Xykon's being so oblivious with regard to the MitD. However, the Inevitable will probably catch on that something is up.I think that that's not in his contract (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NotInMyContract).


MitD is being dangerously obvious in his attempt to subvert Team Evil's goals here. Even if we assume that no one overheard his remark in panel 7, despite it not being marked as a whisper, I'd say that there's a good chance Xykon at least has figured out why MitD is asking him all these questions.

Sort of, but remember that this is Team Evil. Xykon himself would gleefully do exactly what MitD is doing if Redcloak was under such a restriction, just to get under his skin; and Redcloak is probably resisting the urge to do it right now. It's likely he views what MitD is doing the same way, ie. pointless evil trolling rather than intentional sabotage.

[Psyren]

I don't think the Quinton is likely to bring Blackwing up, even if it does notice Blackwing. The Quinton is performing a set list of services:

Accompany Team Evil while they search behind the doors in the canyon
Assist in restraining hostile creatures found within
Keep a mental record of which doors TE entered, in what order, and the physical dimensions and orientation of each room they visit

Blackwing might qualify as a hostile creature, but Blackwing is not within/behind the doors in the canyon, so the Quinton is not compelled to point Blackwing out. I suspect the Quinton will not do anything beyond that list of services and offering ads. Maybe if Redcloak asks the right kind of question, the Quinton will answer and give more information that Redcloak expected, but I don't think that's especially likely?

Point, but all it will take is for Redcloak to ask the right question. Granted, this might occur after Blackwing is hopefully recalled.

I agree the odds of discovery are low, but they're not zero, and they're certainly higher than the very imperceptive Team Evil would have alone.

[Fyraltari]

I wonder why Redcloak isn't telling the MitD to knock it off.

It's the most fun he's had in a long time.

[Laurentio III]

I wonder why Redcloak isn't telling the MitD to knock it off. If the Modron disappears, any replacement is going to be coming out of Redcloak's soul.
Redclock knows that Xykon has a very high INT and can keep speaking by the rules all day.
Maybe he thinks that MitD is just trying to make Xykon fall in error for fun, and decided it's so unlikely to be unworth his intervention.
Plus, the Quinton already passed at least three errors allowing Xykon to correct at the last moment. It's not like it is going to rule out the collaboration so easily.
Last, it's possible that Redclock hope is for Xykon shutting up already.

[Corian]

So... (lazily) put the letters in an anagram descrambler, and got those 4: coder, credo, cored, decor.
I especially like decor, given that the canyon as a whole is a decoy, and could well be called a decor.

[DaOldeWolf]

Nice. It seems like Xykon will handle the issue wuth stuttering.

Also, is the word from the ad "decor" when solved?

[Debatra]

Given the crossword above it, I think you're supposed to come up with as many words that use only those letters as you can.

[warmachine]

I can't see MitD's questions succeeding, besides being forced to stop asking by Xykon. Legal systems recognise mistakes can be made and regard remedying a failure to fulfil contract as acceptable. If Xykon ends a sentence with an even number of characters, the quinton will stop, demand Xykon correct his mistake, then carry on when it's corrected. The quinton has not specified no mistakes must be made and is merely interested in Xykon's effort in considering his words, not some perfect, vocal effect.

[Corian]

Given the crossword above it, I think you're supposed to come up with as many words that use only those letters as you can.

Clearly correct but I thought the full anagram was the most likely to be significant. And I'm happy with decor. Though of course a (contrived?) argument could be made for any the other three. Full crossword left as an exercise to another reader.

[hroþila]

Those pronouns are meant to refer to actual living things with a biological sex to describe rather than attaching a gender to every word, and the suffix "man" is actually gender-neutral despite what the people attempting to replace it with "person" would have you believe.
Those pronouns are still a remnant of a fully gendered grammatical system and they're still applied to non-sentient things occasionally (like boat names and countries). Like duh, of course gender is a more important grammatical concept in e.g. Romance languages than in English, but my point wasn't that English was the most gendered language on earth but that it's still gendered. Especially when compared to many languages that *are* properly genderless.

Also "-man" is not actually gender-neutral because diachronicity and sinchronicity are different things and while etymologically "man" does mean "human being, person" that's not how it's perceived sinchronically by many speakers even if you try to dismiss them as if their opinion didn't matter in something like language use which is entirely determined by consensus.

[drDunkel]

Xykon sure twist that tongue rather well for not having one, +1

[Laurentio III]

e








c

r





c
o
d
e



d




d



e

d
e
c
o
r


c
e
o



e


o

c

r
o
d

[Metastachydium]

I wish I knew Greek. I only learned Latin.

I learned that one too and liked it the most. Clean. Elegant. Simple. For the most part, anyway.


Nah, it's pretty neat. The issue is in tying it up with human gender. Bring back abstract and physical, dammit!

Animate/inanimate is also an interesting one, and a classic at that. I totally intend to use it in a conlang sometime.


Nah, the linguists were quite happy to go with the general consensus of masculine. The académiciens were the ones who decided to be a pain.

Ah, my mistake! Our Academy employs linguists of its own for such tasks.


Bold of English speakers with their "he" and their "she" and their "his" and their "her" and their compounds in "-man" to look down on other languages with grammatical gender.

Bold of you to assume English is my first language. (Spoiler alert: arguably it might not even be my second.)


Anyway, I feel MitD might be pushing it. At this rate his aura of uselessness will stop protecting him eventually.

He's been pushing it to varying degrees since before O-Chul's escape, but yes, it going unnoticed requires more and more luck on his part indeed.


It's the most fun he's had in a long time.

It's Xykon getting "ordered around" and forced to do something kinda-sorta "nerdy"! How could it not be?


Those pronouns are still a remnant of a fully gendered grammatical system and they're still applied to non-sentient things occasionally (like boat names and countries). Like duh, of course gender is a more important grammatical concept in e.g. Romance languages than in English, but my point wasn't that English was the most gendered language on earth but that it's still gendered. Especially when compared to many languages that *are* properly genderless.

Well put.


Also "-man" is not actually gender-neutral because diachronicity and sinchronicity are different things and while etymologically "man" does mean "human being, person" that's not how it's perceived sinchronically by many speakers even if you try to dismiss them as if their opinion didn't matter in something like language use which is entirely determined by consensus.

What's the singular of people? (DISCLAIMER: the question isn't entirely rhetorical.)


(For some reason I can't have all letter capital if I don't add a text line)

(That's mostly for the prevention of FORUM YELLING!!!4! and, perhaps, for undoing Caps Lock errors.)

[Corian]

E
C E
CODE
D D
E DECOR
CEO E
O C ROD

(For some reason I can't have all letter capital if I don't add a text line)

First: Thank you!
Second: Try a CODE tag.


E
C E
CODE
D D
E DECOR
CEO E
O C ROD


Third: EEDO? (down from 6, 2)
ETA: Ah saw you corrected to REDO in 2nd attempt. Thanks again!

[Lord Vukodlak]

It may seem like MITD is pushing his luck, but everyone in that group (as well as us as the readers) knows that if the situation were reversed Xykon would totally be asking similar questions to mess with Redcloak or whoever else was the one who had to watch what they say. Turnabout is fair play lich-boy.
I can see Redcloak at some point pulling him aside and asking MITD to stop but at this point he'd find it to funny.



I can't see MitD's questions succeeding, besides being forced to stop asking by Xykon. Legal systems recognise mistakes can be made and regard remedying a failure to fulfil contract as acceptable. If Xykon ends a sentence with an even number of characters, the quinton will stop, demand Xykon correct his mistake, then carry on when it's corrected. The quinton has not specified no mistakes must be made and is merely interested in Xykon's effort in considering his words, not some perfect, vocal effect.
We aren't dealing with corporations here but supernatural magical forces.
Quinton's goal is cosmic order and Xykon's goals stand in opposition of that. He'll wait until Xykon screws up at a critical moment and then pull out.

[Laurentio III]

Do [#]drones appear and disappear as required? The gate is closed, and I don't remember Quinton to be able to teleport minions on demand.
Are all of them conveniently offscreen?

[bunsen_h]

Given the crossword above it, I think you're supposed to come up with as many words that use only those letters as you can.

In the version I played briefly, the "crossword puzzle" used only a subset of the words that could be made with the letters. The score was one point per word entered that matched the letters, regardless of whether or not the word was in the "crossword". If one entered a word that was in the "crossword", that word was filled in. The game ended when the "crossword" was completed. So one got a maximum score by coming up with as many words as possible that weren't in the "crossword"... but still recognized by the game as real words. I got frustrated by the game's too-frequently telling me that real words that I know weren't real. I'd also gotten into the bad habit of rearranging subsets of the letters algorithmically to see what combinations the game would recognize as words, even if I had no idea if some combinations were valid.

[Corian]

Nah, it's pretty neat. The issue is in tying it up with human gender. Bring back abstract and physical, dammit!

Animate/inanimate is also an interesting one, and a classic at that. I totally intend to use it in a conlang sometime.


It is great esp. in ergative languages: subject and object are grammatically marked only if they diverge from base subject-animate object-inanimate assumption. (Which I strongly suspect you know but may interest other readers.)

I once learnt rudiments of kiSwahili (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes): humans (irregardless of sex) are in first pair (1-2) of 18 noun classes (semantic categories, often paired by pluralization) but it includes a few other abstract animal nouns; most animals instead fall in classes 9-10, which is a grab bag with many loan words. My favourite is class 14 for abstraction, as requested by Fyraltari; which being represented by a noun class can be used to "abstract" many words by prefixing with u-. Eg moja=one, umoja=unity. Collectives can have agency but fall in class 5-6. Plants have vitality but not agency and fall in class 3-4.

Really a different view of the world. Of course, the categories are not neat, and anybody expecting neat categories is invited to read Lakoff on Women, Fire and Dangerous things (title referring to a noun class in an Australian language.)

[littlebum2002]

The ad thing really killed me :smallbiggrin:

Good thing Xykon's being so oblivious with regard to the MitD. However, the Inevitable will probably catch on that something is up.

I mean in the last comic Redcloak made a point of how funny it is to make Xykon follow the word rule so it's not much of a stretch for hi to assume the MitD is just having more fun with it than he should have.

[Coppercloud]

Initial thoughts. On. This. Page. About xykon getting teased.
[...]
Are you aware that "teased" has six letters?

[Metastachydium]

noun classes

Sometimes this category is lumped together with grammatical gender – a practice that I wholeheartedly endorse.


anybody expecting neat categories is invited to read Lakoff on Women, Fire and Dangerous things (title referring to a noun class in an Australian language.)

(Anybody whpo doesn't expect that is likewise encouraged to read it; it's worth your time, people!)

[Laurentio III]

Besides...

ODD letters "blue" synonyms
azure
beryl
royal
turquoise
ultramarine

EVEN letters "blue" synonyms
cerulean
cobalt
indigo
navy
sapphire
teal

In Xykon shoes, I'd go with "Royal". For a massive number of reasons.

[Corian]

Sometimes this category is lumped together with grammatical gender – a practice that I wholeheartedly endorse.

Amen! I left that implied by association, but absolutely worth being explicit!

[Coppercloud]

I can imagine what is going on in Blackwing's mind during the previous scene. "Try not to laugh... Try not to laugh...".

Come to think of it, have we ever seen Blackwing laugh?

[Frozenstep]

Wow. That's...really bold of MiTD. O-chul would be proud. Might already be proud, if blackwing is relaying this to the group.

[Grey Watcher]

Xykon is doing a way better job with this restriction than I would. Does that mean he's smarter than me?

[Tzardok]

Xykon is doing way better job with this restriction than I would. Does that mean he's smarter than me?

He's got a racial bonus of +2 and a +3 from being venerable to Int. He's got a lot inside his non-existent brain.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon is doing way better job with this restriction than I would. Does that mean he's smarter than me?

Xykon is smarter than he looks. He just doesn't like doing any thinking.

[Jervis]

All this talk of V’s familiar has me wondering if we every learned what happened to Xykon’s familiar. Sorcerers should have one. It would be kinda funny if someone points it out and he randomly gets a snake on his shoulder.

That aside I get the feeling that he’s going to start ending his sentences in expletives if this keeps up

[Lexible]

Oh no!

I'm skeered for Blackwing!

[Quizatzhaderac]

All this talk of V’s familiar has me wondering if we every learned what happened to Xykon’s familiar. Sorcerers should have one. It would be kinda funny if someone points it out and he randomly gets a snake on his shoulder. In start of darkness we got to see Xykon at basically every life stage and he never had one.

I strongly suspect this is a characterization choice on the Giant's part.

[Provengreil]

The ad thing really killed me :smallbiggrin:

Good thing Xykon's being so oblivious with regard to the MitD. However, the Inevitable will probably catch on that something is up.

The real question is whether it'll care. I'm betting on no.

But yeah, MitD is being extremely risky here. There's a thin line between what Team Evil will view as mischievous ribbing and intentional sabotage, and as soon as they suspect the latter even for a second the penny will drop. The only saving grace for him so far is that they simply haven't considered it at all.

[LookieLouE1707]

here we see the importance of proper punctuation, even in oral utterances! "the only way to get ahead" vs "get a head".



Initial thoughts. On. This. Page. About xykon getting teased.

1. I love that the Quinton is straight up calling Xykon a senile old man. It's amusing to know that even pure lawful beings have a sense of humor.

2. It may seem like MITD is pushing his luck, but everyone in that group (as well as us as the readers) knows that if the situation were reversed Xykon would totally be asking similar questions to mess with Redcloak or whoever else was the one who had to watch what they say. Turnabout is fair play lich-boy.

3. I have to wonder if Team Stick is going to try and trick xykon the same way MITD is, to see if he'll fall for it from someone else - especially in a fit of anger.


yeah, as tsukiko learned, they're the villains, they play rough.

[Poit-Narf]

I'm wondering if characters cast a spell they actually say it out loud and count as a sentence (V vs the Druid would imply that). Maybe they can just get him to cast the wrong spell?

The spell name doesn't need to be the end of a sentence.

"So MAXIMIZED Energy Drain, dumbass." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

[Laurentio III]

All this talk of V’s familiar has me wondering if we every learned what happened to Xykon’s familiar. Sorcerers should have one.
It I remember properly, you can trade the familiar for a items that gives bonuses.
A more Xykonesque choice.

[Psychronia]

Well, our friend in the dark is pushing it, but what exactly is even going to happen if Xykon or Redcloak clue into what he's doing? A murder? Some more magic to secure their control?

Xykon is way better at this than I expected him to be. Darn.

[Coppercloud]

All this talk of V’s familiar has me wondering if we every learned what happened to Xykon’s familiar. Sorcerers should have one. It would be kinda funny if someone points it out and he randomly gets a snake on his shoulder.



In start of darkness we got to see Xykon at basically every life stage and he never had one.

I strongly suspect this is a characterization choice on the Giant's part.

Quizatzhaderac has already answered, but I can provide a quote from the Giant (about V not having a staff) that might be relevant here too:


Because there's absolutely no narrative purpose for it other than to satisfy people who want the characters to more accurately reflect common D&D player strategies, and I am actively seeking to disappoint such people so they stop expecting that. Basically, the fact that "every decent player" does something has become a reason for me to NOT do it now, just to try to get people to stop asking.


The index of Giant's comments (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?601004-The-Index-of-the-Giant-s-Comments-VIMaking-Dogma-from-Zapped-Bananas) is really a godsend (or godssend, in the OotS cosmology, I guess).
Besides, a familiar dying makes their master lose 200 XP per level (DC15 Fortitude save for half) and Xykon's has a habit of blasting everything and letting minions die for fun. It wouldn't bode well for the life expectancy of an hypothetical familiar, and one of uncle Xykon's prominent character trait is that he wants to remove all his weaknesses or vulnerabilities. Nobody tells him what to do, as he just clarified ; I don't think binding his soul to a familiar would be his thing. Plus, maybe being a lich would prevent him from doing that, at least in the last - checks the timeline - 28 years? Just spitballing.

Ultimately, having a familiar is a choice or a special occurrence, not a general thing for all wizards or sorcerers. For example, I don't think we saw whether Dorukan had one. Neither Samantha nor the Azure city alcoholic wizard (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0340.html) had one, while the wizard at Sandsedge (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) did.

[Jay R]

Xykon is doing a way better job with this restriction than I would. Does that mean he's smarter than me?

Not necessarily – just that he has a better writer.

[Jason]

Eugene Greenhilt didn't seem to have a familiar either.

[Fyraltari]

In start of darkness we got to see Xykon at basically every life stage and he never had one.

I strongly suspect this is a characterization choice on the Giant's part.

Could a zombie dog serve as a familiar?

[Jervis]

Eugene Greenhilt didn't seem to have a familiar either.


It I remember properly, you can trade the familiar for a items that gives bonuses.
A more Xykonesque choice.

Most items you can trade it for are staffs and the like. I think there is an option to trade it for binding yourself to any item item (which would be interesting if that was his crown but since he got that later it’s probably not the case). There is also the option to trade out a familiar to give your spells a alignment descriptor or to apply metamagic without a increase in casting time though. I wouldn’t be surprised if Xykon did that. As for Eugene you can also trade it for SLAs usable a certain amount of times per day. Both are common trade outs. Not a confirmation at all just something interesting. Like other people mentioned I can see Xykon just dismissing his familiar at level 1 or something or just blowing it up at some point and not bothering to resummon it.

[137beth]

Oh my northern gods I'm laughing so hard at this!

[Reboot]

Xykon is doing a way better job with this restriction than I would. Does that mean he's smarter than me?

Well, he has the advantage of being able to see his speech balloons.

[Nomen]

Xykon's robe is actually dark blue colored.

[RatElemental]

The spell name doesn't need to be the end of a sentence.

"So MAXIMIZED Energy Drain, dumbass." (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0652.html)

One wonders why Xykon is not already ending every sentence with 'dumbass.'

[MathTeacherGuy]

"Roy" has an odd number of letters, as does "Greenhilt". I like the idea that Xykon's inability to remember Roy's name will cause him to screw up.

[Shining Wrath]

Yes, Xykon is on to MitD, but is not ready to reveal that.

It figures Redcloak is going to do the doors in a linear fashion. Even though he's got a creature with a perfect memory tagging along.

I wonder how many ads the Quintron is going to serve up?

And finally, the Quintron is simply ignoring MitD and Oona. They are not part of the contract, they may as well not be there.

[Clistenes]

Grammatical gender is stupid and its face is stupid! (I.e. yes, I know. I just like to pretend there's a measure of balance and order in the world.)

You will love Spanish language. There aren't gender neutral words in Spanish, so everything has a grammatical gender, and sometimes the grammatical gender is the opposite to the biological one...

Puñal (dagger) is male, daga (dagger) is female.
Ave (bird) is female, pájaro (bird) is male.
Ser humano (human being) is male, persona (person) is female.
Animal (animal) is male, bestia (beast) is female.
Alma (soul) is female, espíritu (spirit) is male.
Pecho (breast) is male, teta (boob) is female.
Sombrero (hat) is male, gorra (cap) is female.
Vaso (drinking glass) is male, taza (cup) is female.
Caldero (cauldron) is male, marmita (cauldron or pot) is female.
Pene (penis) is male, polla (penis) is female.
Vagina (vagina) is female, coño (vagina) is male.


It has me wonder if another language has also a group of people who decide how is the correct way to speak...

La Real Academia de la Lengua for Spanish.


They don't. They just act like they do.

True.

[mjasghar]

I can't see MitD's questions succeeding, besides being forced to stop asking by Xykon. Legal systems recognise mistakes can be made and regard remedying a failure to fulfil contract as acceptable. If Xykon ends a sentence with an even number of characters, the quinton will stop, demand Xykon correct his mistake, then carry on when it's corrected. The quinton has not specified no mistakes must be made and is merely interested in Xykon's effort in considering his words, not some perfect, vocal effect.

That’s real world systems which usually have implicit concepts of justice and fair play and mercy - which is Lawful Good
The Quinton is a being of pure Law - the contract is the contract so as soon as it’s broken it’s gone.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Man, Xykon is sharp. And MitD is really pushing his luck now. And Blackwing, for that matter. Xykon might remember him.

xykon actually succeeding!

also i can't wait to see just what random ads the quinton is going to have each chapter!

Since becoming a lich, he does have a fifth-grade reading level. He is intelligent enough to be capable of both counting and determining if the number of letters is odd or even, as long as he's concentrating on it.

Now we just need him to blow a concentration check while casting a spell that requires concentration. It will tick him off so much he will forget all about the letters needing to be odd.

It makes sense in-universe and also mechanically! (Unless 3.5e is that different from 5e, I wouldn't know.)

[Askthepizzaguy]

"Roy" has an odd number of letters, as does "Greenhilt". I like the idea that Xykon's inability to remember Roy's name will cause him to screw up.

"Hey, it's that green sword guy! Oh guy I killed, the ground, the ground is calling."

Xykon remembers him, just not the details.

[elros]

Since becoming a lich, he does have a fifth-grade reading level. He is intelligent enough to be capable of both counting and determining if the number of letters is odd or even, as long as he's concentrating on it.

Now we just need him to blow a concentration check while casting a spell that requires concentration. It will tick him off so much he will forget all about the letters needing to be odd.

It makes sense in-universe and also mechanically! (Unless 3.5e is that different from 5e, I wouldn't know.)
The Giant is setting up Xykon to fail because of a series of obstacles that individually could not stop him, but together will counter his greater power. It has been foreshadowed in SoD and is his battle against Soul-spliced V.

[Particle_Man]

It has me wonder if another language has also a group of people who decide how is the correct way to speak...

Maybe the inventors of artificial languages like Esperanto?

[Doctor West]

Wait a minute, the ads in the ad supported summoning continue for the entire duration of the task, not just during negotiation?
Reddie, I think you may be undervaluing your sanity. Most of these things cost 5 bucks tops to go ad-free anyway. :smallcool:

[danielxcutter]

First of all, the comic's using the 3.5e system, so most of the alternate options in 5e are not going to be applicable for Xykon. Usually you can trade it for stuff like a bonus feat or whatnot, or another type of familiar/animal companion/whatever, though, and IIRC the thread that tracks stats and stuffs pegs him as having Metamagic Specialist - a Sorcerer ACF you can trade your innate ability to get a familiar for.(Also, there's a feat that you can take to gain the ability to get a familiar, so that helps.)

Second, even in 3.5e familiars often aren't that great. Even ignoring the inherent costs and risks, the only reason Blackwing gets so much mileage is because Rich is consciously making the decision to make him an actual character. There are a few options to get familiars that are actually useful in combat, but even those mostly involve being a Hexblade or Duskblade with the aforementioned feat since they have the BAB and hit points as that's what familiars base their own stats on, I think.

[Fish]

The Quinton is a being of pure Law - the contract is the contract so as soon as it’s broken it’s gone.
Well, a quinton is. If this is in fact a quinton, then this one is too. But if it isn’t, then not.

I’m operating under the possibility that this is Sabine in disguise, stirring the pot.

[aquablack]

Wait a minute, the ads in the ad supported summoning continue for the entire duration of the task, not just during negotiation?
Reddie, I think you may be undervaluing your sanity. Most of these things cost 5 bucks tops to go ad-free anyway. :smallcool:

Of course in this case, that would mean adding on the "minimal" cost of one of the rules folks keep confusing the current contract for:

odd number of syllables
odd number of letters in entire sentence
odd number of words in sentence
etc.


Or worse, extend it to the next most chaotic character, likely the neutral MitD. Though somehow, I feel like he'd break the rule sooner if he was still trying to help team evil

[Rrmcklin]

Well, a quinton is. If this is in fact a quinton, then this one is too. But if it isn’t, then not.

I’m operating under the possibility that this is Sabine in disguise, stirring the pot.

That feels like the kind of things that raises more questions than it can answer.

[The MunchKING]

Good thing Xykon's being so oblivious with regard to the MitD.


Redcloak might be a bigger problem, especially since the Monster is getting less and less subtle.

I'm pretty sure Xykon has already figured out that MitD is asking him even answered questions. The question is whether he thinks it's rebellion or just straight trolling.


I can't see MitD's questions succeeding, besides being forced to stop asking by Xykon. Legal systems recognise mistakes can be made and regard remedying a failure to fulfil contract as acceptable. If Xykon ends a sentence with an even number of characters, the quinton will stop, demand Xykon correct his mistake, then carry on when it's corrected. The quinton has not specified no mistakes must be made and is merely interested in Xykon's effort in considering his words, not some perfect, vocal effect.

That is certainly an interpretation, but not the only viable one. The assumption about what it would do is what I'm challenging.


What's the singular of people? (DISCLAIMER: the question isn't entirely rhetorical.)

You have many people, you have one person.

[Fish]

That feels like the kind of things that raises more questions than it can answer.
The best kind of answer!

[InvisibleBison]

Well, a quinton is. If this is in fact a quinton, then this one is too. But if it isn’t, then not.

I’m operating under the possibility that this is Sabine in disguise, stirring the pot.

I don't think that's possible. A succubus can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#succubus), and the quinton is Large and arguably not a humanoid.

[sirgarberto]

Yes, Xykon is on to MitD, but is not ready to reveal that.
My thoughts exactly - if he could see through Right-Eye, he can absolutely do the same for the MitD. And he's reacting in the same way, too.


Puñal (dagger) is male, daga (dagger) is female.
Ave (bird) is female, pájaro (bird) is male.
Ser humano (human being) is male, persona (person) is female.
Animal (animal) is male, bestia (beast) is female.
Alma (soul) is female, espíritu (spirit) is male.
Pecho (breast) is male, teta (boob) is female.
Sombrero (hat) is male, gorra (cap) is female.
Vaso (drinking glass) is male, taza (cup) is female.
Caldero (cauldron) is male, marmita (cauldron or pot) is female.
Pene (penis) is male, polla (penis) is female.
Vagina (vagina) is female, coño (vagina) is male.
As a fellow Spanish speaker I feel the need to point out: "puñal" is specifically a poignard, not just any dagger. Conversely, "ave" means fowl, not as specific as bird. All the slang terms for sexual organs should probably be replaced by their English counterparts, too.
But really, what drives me insane is that the grammatical genders don't remain the same for different languages. Trying to learn German almost broke me.

[BriarHobbit]

I agree that Xykon sees through the MiD's ruse; Xykon just doesn't care. Interesting that Xykon did not threat MiD with death.

[The MunchKING]

I agree that Xykon sees through the MiD's ruse; Xykon just doesn't care. Interesting that Xykon did not threat MiD with death.

What I think is interesting is, IIRC this is the first time he's threatened the Monster in the Darkness directly. If not it's the first time in a long time. So he's like actually paying attention to him now.

Also if the monster DIES Xykon can't make him suffer any more. Beating him up instead prolongs the pain.

[Edric O]

The MitD displays significant intelligence. But there's no way Xykon doesn't suspect something now.

So, Xykon's dilemma is: Literally all his allies are just waiting for the right time to betray him. He is probably aware of this, but doesn't do anything about it because... he's also waiting for the right time to betray them.

EVIL: An unstable industry!

[Xirdus]

Xykon's "hmmm" is 4 letters apparently. I wonder if we'll see him resort to ending a sentence with "hmm" or "hmmmm" at some point.

[Clistenes]

My thoughts exactly - if he could see through Right-Eye, he can absolutely do the same for the MitD. And he's reacting in the same way, too.


As a fellow Spanish speaker I feel the need to point out: "puñal" is specifically a poignard, not just any dagger. Conversely, "ave" means fowl, not as specific as bird. All the slang terms for sexual organs should probably be replaced by their English counterparts, too.
But really, what drives me insane is that the grammatical genders don't remain the same for different languages. Trying to learn German almost broke me.

What exactly "ave" means varies from country to country. In some countries "ave" means all birds, and "pajaro" means small birds only.

We can't write english slang words in this forum.

[Ruck]

Well, after I saw the title I was hoping the strip would be called "Dead Letter Office" instead, but, that's a pretty specific pull.

I guess I don't have a lot else to say. Enjoyed MitD trying to mess with Xykon; I wonder how blatant he's going to get with his sabotage as the story continues.

[Laurentio III]

Like other people mentioned I can see Xykon just dismissing his familiar at level 1 or something or just blowing it up at some point and not bothering to resummon it.
This is how Xykon fails the even word requirement:
:redcloak:"We need someone to scout this small hole."
:xykon:"Can I stuff you inside... this... hole... wrong-eye?"
:redcloak:"Hard pass. Why don't you send your familiar? I presume is a snake or a spider, right?"
:xykon:"I don't know what you are speaking about."
:redcloak:"Oh, for the Dark One's sake! Just call your familiar!"
:xykon:"I never had a..." *a snake pops in* "WHAT THE FU-?!"

[Fish]

But really, what drives me insane is that the grammatical genders don't remain the same for different languages. Trying to learn German almost broke me.
Oh yes, I’m L1 English learning Spanish, German, Mandarin and Greek on Duolingo. (I’ll do French eventually.) There’s almost no sense at all to German grammatical genders.

[siprus]

Isn't "A parasol" 8 letters?

[Yirggzmb]

Isn't "A parasol" 8 letters?

Sure, but "parasol" is 7, and it's the very last word that counts.

[Fyraltari]

Oh yes, I’m L1 English learning Spanish, German, Mandarin and Greek on Duolingo. (I’ll do French eventually.) There’s almost no sense at all to German grammatical genders.
Less than for the others you mean?

Also, wow, that's an impressive number of languages!

[danielxcutter]

Eh, it's all Greek to me.

*ba dum tiss*

[Xirdus]

Less than for the others you mean?

Yes. For example, Mädchen (girl) is neuter.

[Fyraltari]

Yes. For example, Mädchen (girl) is neuter.
Yes, that's how diminutives work in German. That makes sense.

[hroþila]

Hot take: using the words "masculine", "feminine" and "neuter" for grammatical gender was a mistake.

Dutch knows what's what with its de-woorden and its het-woorden.

[Xirdus]

Yes, that's how diminutives work in German. That makes sense.

But why would a diminutive change the noun's gender in the first place?

[Tzardok]

But why would a diminutive change the noun's gender in the first place?

Why not? I mean, Greek apparantly does it too.

[hroþila]

I can't think of any examples of Spanish diminutives changing a word's gender after thinking some 25 seconds about it, but it's easy to come up with examples of lexicalized augmentatives doing the same. La caja~el cajón, la subida~el subidón, la taza~el tazón. And it also happens with unlexicalized augmentatives: la noticia~el notición, la foto~el fotón (in the sense of "awesome photograph", not "photon"). Dunno, it just never struck me as particularly weird that an ending could change a word's gender.

[Jason]

Hot take: using the words "masculine", "feminine" and "neuter" for grammatical gender was a mistake.

Dutch knows what's what with its de-woorden and its het-woorden.
Dutch did have all three at one time, and so did English. English got rid of all of them and the Dutch compromised by shrinking three genders down to two, eliminating the feminine gender.

[danielxcutter]

Possibly relevant:


The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary.

-James Nicoll

[Laurentio III]

Possibly relevant:
American English has yet to decide when a noun is a noun and not a verb. Or the opposite.

[Charity322]

So, uh, what is the capital of Anywhere?

[Resileaf]

So, uh, what is the capital of Anywhere?

Didn't you hear Xykon? He said it was 'No clue at all'!

[Riftwolf]

What I like about this is Xykon will probably brush it off as MitD messing with him for no reason because it's what Xykon would do to anyone else in the same position.


So, uh, what is the capital of Anywhere?

Possibilities: Here, Not Here, Over Yonder, This Hill, Nextdoor, Capital City of Anywhere, What.

[Xirdus]

So, uh, what is the capital of Anywhere?

From what I could find in Google, between $10,000 and $10,000,000. (Source (https://www.usbfund.com/about-us/))

[Windscion]

So, uh, what is the capital of Anywhere?

Clearly the answer is "A".

[Xirdus]

{scrubbed}

[Laurentio III]

Didn't you hear Xykon? He said it was 'No clue at all'!
That's how he pronunce it. So... Nocwatol? Can't be, it's even!

[Resileaf]

That's how he pronunce it. So... Nocwatol? Can't be, it's even!

Considering the naming conventions of this setting's countries, would you really be surprised if the name of the capital of Anywhere was literally 'No clue at all'?

[urbanwolf]

MITD should try using homophones.
Words that sound alike but have different spellings. I feel a good meta joke could spawn from that.

[Laurentio III]

MITD should try using homophones.
Words that sound alike but have different spellings. I feel a good meta joke could spawn from that.

:belkar: "No, you are an homophone!"

[Quizatzhaderac]

I can't think of any examples of Spanish diminutives changing a word's gender after thinking some 25 seconds about it, ....Spanish diminutives all come in gendered pairs.

Also in Spanish: positive, factual gender overrides grammatical gender, unlike German, which is what people find most shocking about Mädchen. The speaker knows a Mädchen has a real gender, what it is, and it's possibly relevant; they just go ahead and call it neuter anyways.


But why would a diminutive change the noun's gender in the first place?So you can tell the gender from the way the word's end.


American English has yet to decide when a noun is a noun and not a verb. Or the opposite.Honestly, we've mostly decided that we're going to merge the two categories, we just haven't all admitted it yet.

[bunsen_h]

Wow. That's...really bold of MiTD. O-chul would be proud. Might already be proud, if blackwing is relaying this to the group.

O-chul wasn't subject to the Telepathy spell, but it's possible that someone in the Order is relaying Blackwing's reports to the paladins, Serini, and Sunny.


American English has yet to decide when a noun is a noun and not a verb. Or the opposite.

"Verbing weirds language." -- Calvin and Hobbes

[Vikenlugaid]

"Roy" has an odd number of letters, as does "Greenhilt". I like the idea that Xykon's inability to remember Roy's name will cause him to screw up.
Last time he just said "you are that guy!". So I don't see any problem.

[Lysbeth]

I doubt that the capital city actually is "No clue at all". That's more likely to be the capital of Nowhere, just because why not. If only because the MitD is trying to trip Xykon up (and void the agreement with the Quinton, or delay the ordeal, or tire him out...) so a capital that actually scans to an odd number of letters at the end doesn't fit the pattern.

My guesses are: Xykon is bad at geography and knows it (he has no clue at all); or Xykon is bad at geography and does not know it (he thinks he knows, but this is the capital of Someplace Else- er, some place else).

[Laurentio III]

Honestly, we've mostly decided that we're going to merge the two categories, we just haven't all admitted it yet.
You didn't yetted, yet?


My guesses are: Xykon is bad at geography and knows it (he has no clue at all); or Xykon is bad at geography and does not know it (he thinks he knows, but this is the capital of Someplace Else- er, some place else).
I'm more surprised by the fact that MitD, apparently, knows.

[mashlagoo1982]

In start of darkness we got to see Xykon at basically every life stage and he never had one.

I strongly suspect this is a characterization choice on the Giant's part.

MitD ends up being revealed as Xykon's familiar.

[Thermophille]

MitD ends up being revealed as Xykon's familiar.

Turns out all of MitD's feats were being used to hype Xykon, since he's never used more than 1% of his power. In order to defeat him, Roy is going to have to channel the power of the Gates to go Super Saiyan Snarl, where they'll have an epic anime showdown.

[DaOldeWolf]

You will love Spanish language. There aren't gender neutral words in Spanish, so everything has a grammatical gender, and sometimes the grammatical gender is the opposite to the biological one...

Puñal (dagger) is male, daga (dagger) is female.
Ave (bird) is female, pájaro (bird) is male.
Ser humano (human being) is male, persona (person) is female.
Animal (animal) is male, bestia (beast) is female.
Alma (soul) is female, espíritu (spirit) is male.
Pecho (breast) is male, teta (boob) is female.
Sombrero (hat) is male, gorra (cap) is female.
Vaso (drinking glass) is male, taza (cup) is female.
Caldero (cauldron) is male, marmita (cauldron or pot) is female.
Pene (penis) is male, polla (penis) is female.
Vagina (vagina) is female, coño (vagina) is male.



La Real Academia de la Lengua for Spanish.



True.

Over here, we say "el ave" y "el alma" which would make them male. Strange. Maybe, its a regional thing?

[mashlagoo1982]

Turns out all of MitD's feats were being used to hype Xykon, since he's never used more than 1% of his power. In order to defeat him, Roy is going to have to channel the power of the Gates to go Super Saiyan Snarl, where they'll have an epic anime showdown.

After the defeat of Xykon, MitD is freed and Roy has the Snarl sealed inside of him.

After years of observing humanity through Roy's eyes, the Snarl loses its desire for destruction and slowly befriends Roy.

MitD befriends and lends his power to some yet-to-be-determined rival of Roy.

They end up clashing, having more epic anime battles.

[Robots]

Turns out all of MitD's feats were being used to hype Xykon, since he's never used more than 1% of his power. In order to defeat him, Roy is going to have to channel the power of the Gates to go Super Saiyan Snarl, where they'll have an epic anime showdown.
The power of going Super Saiyan will make his hair grow back, I assume.

[Thermophille]

After the defeat of Xykon, MitD is freed and Roy has the Snarl sealed inside of him.

After years of observing humanity through Roy's eyes, the Snarl loses its desire for destruction and slowly befriends Roy.

MitD befriends and lends his power to some yet-to-be-determined rival of Roy.

They end up clashing, having more epic anime battles.

No, Roy becomes the Fourth Hokage and seals the Snarl inside his son. His son is the one who teaches the Snarl to get along with humanity, but there's some stuff about Roy befriending the other half of the Snarl while he was dead that most fans are going to ignore.


The power of going Super Saiyan will make his hair grow back, I assume.

Yes, because we need to sell more toys.

[Eric the White]

In start of darkness we got to see Xykon at basically every life stage and he never had one.

I strongly suspect this is a characterization choice on the Giant's part.

I never played 3.5 but in 2.0 If your familiar was killed you permanently lost hit points. That wouldn't be a risk Xykon would want to take, and frankly he's probably aware that he doesn't want anything around that he simply can't kill if it irritates him too much.

[Clistenes]

Over here, we say "el ave" y "el alma" which would make them male. Strange. Maybe, its a regional thing?

In order to know the grammatical gender you have to look at the adjetives: "el alma pura"; "el ave bonita".

"Pura" and "bonita" are female, so the associated nouns are too...

Or look at the plural: "las aves"; "las almas".

[mashlagoo1982]

No, Roy becomes the Fourth Hokage and seals the Snarl inside his son. His son is the one who teaches the Snarl to get along with humanity, but there's some stuff about Roy befriending the other half of the Snarl while he was dead that most fans are going to ignore.



Yes, because we need to sell more toys.

MitD becomes Eugene's familiar.

[Aaron L]

Also sprach das Marut!
(Are we sure modrons aren't somehow EVIL in this 'verse?)
\

I doubt that Mr. Burlew would alter such a fundamental element of D&D's Outer Planar Alignment structure as to change the Alignment of Modrons, the native inhabitants of "Nirvana of absolute (neutral) lawfuls," to quote my AD&D 1st Edition Player's Handbook (or its later retcon/Planescape name "Mechanus," ugh. The afterlife realm of... Mechanus? Yuck, so tacky.)

I always detested Planescape's paradigm of portraying the alternate Planes of Existence, especially the various Outer Planes, as basically just like alien planets that could be physically traveled to, and with the native inhabitants as alien sci-fi creatures, rather than as the literal afterlife/afterlives {scrubbed} filled with their associated mythological creatures. {scrubbed}

Also, the Monster really does seem to be more with-it lately, as others have pointed out; he's either quickly maturing, or just getting sick of Team Evil's shenanigans (or both.)

[Ruck]

I want to say there's a map of the northern continent in one of the books, which might give us the actual answer as to the capital of Anywhere, but I forget which one and I was only willing to spend so much time looking.

[Peelee]

I want to say there's a map of the northern continent in one of the books, which might give us the actual answer as to the capital of Anywhere, but I forget which one and I was only willing to spend so much time looking.

I remember a map of the Southern Continent but not the Northern one.

[hamishspence]

I want to say there's a map of the northern continent in one of the books, which might give us the actual answer as to the capital of Anywhere, but I forget which one and I was only willing to spend so much time looking.

You're right - it's in Utterly Dwarfed, right before Chapter 7.

Anywhere does not have any settlements specifically marked.

Nowhere does have one, however - it's called "Middle".

[Doug Lampert]

I remember a map of the Southern Continent but not the Northern one.

There's a partial map, containing dwarven lands and the pole, here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html). But I see no sign of Anywhere on it.

[DaOldeWolf]

In order to know the grammatical gender you have to look at the adjetives: "el alma pura"; "el ave bonita".

"Pura" and "bonita" are female, so the associated nouns are too...

Or look at the plural: "las aves"; "las almas".

Right. I forgot about that. Sorry.

Spanish can get very complicated.

[Lysbeth]

Obviously Xykon is MitD's familiar :biggrin:

[WanderingMist]

Bold of English speakers with their "he" and their "she" and their "his" and their "her" and their compounds in "-man" to look down on other languages with grammatical gender.


That's what happens when the word "man" is originally used to mean "person". Used to be "wer-man" for "male human" and "wif-man" for "female human". Eventually, "wer" got dropped and "wif" developed into "wo". This is where English got the word "werewolf" by the way, literally "man-wolf". And if I'm remembering correctly, "he" and "she" are derivatives of the Old English words for "the" and "that".

[Reboot]

I never played 3.5 but in 2.0 If your familiar was killed you permanently lost hit points. That wouldn't be a risk Xykon would want to take, and frankly he's probably aware that he doesn't want anything around that he simply can't kill if it irritates him too much.

It's not that bad, just some XP loss:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcererFamiliar
If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

(V references the XP loss in #1021 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1021.html), FTR.)

[facw]

There's a partial map, containing dwarven lands and the pole, here (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1044.html). But I see no sign of Anywhere on it.

The map is a bonus in the book/ebook version of Utterly Dwarfed, after the climatic confrontation. It doesn't list any cities in Anywhere though (Nowhere has one city "Middle", but it isn't marked as a capital.)

[drazen]

Clearly the answer is "A".

I was going to go with Anywhere City.

[brian 333]

Clearly, Xykon's answer was correct. But it got me thinking about the names of the other cities in the region.

Somewhere:
Partyville
Rock City
Paradise
Happy Town

Nowhere:
Utopia
Shangri La
Xanadu
Cibola
Atlantis

Anywhere:
Here
There
This Place
That Place
Yonder
Springfield

[facw]

Anywhere:
Here
There


Here and There are actually countries. In addition to Anywhere, Nowhere, Here, and There, the map also shows the locations of Somewhere and Someplace Else.

[Windscion]

Elsweyr:
* Dune
* Mistral
* Rawl'kha
* Rimmen
* Senchal

[Eric the White]

I love Brian's, but I think the capital of Anywhere is clearly a twin city, Anytime, Anyplace.

[Riftwolf]

The capital of Anywhere being What feeds into the Abbot and Costello origins of the joke. Yes would be the capital of Nowhere, No isn't a capital city and This would technically be a town, not a city.
What is the capital city of Anywhere?
Yes.
No, that's the capital of Nowhere.
No isn't the capital of Nowhere.
What?
That's right.
Let's start again... What is the capital of Anywhere?

[Thermophille]

The capital of Anywhere being What feeds into the Abbot and Costello origins of the joke. Yes would be the capital of Nowhere, No isn't a capital city and This would technically be a town, not a city.
What is the capital city of Anywhere?
Yes.
No, that's the capital of Nowhere.
No isn't the capital of Nowhere.
What?
That's right.
Let's start again... What is the capital of Anywhere?

I mean, I'm like 70% sure that the original introduction of Anywhere, Nowhere and such is a reference to that skit in the first place.

[Mike Havran]

I mean, I'm like 70% sure that the original introduction of Anywhere, Nowhere and such is a reference to that skit in the first place.

Make it 99%. The name of the strip is Who's On the Throne?

[alceryes]

Is it just me, or does MitD appear to be an entirely different creature in this latest comic? I'm not just referring to the thought of actively working against Xykon, either.

Using "Huh" as a self interjection?? Calling Xykon "Dude"???

This is not the same MitD.

[Riftwolf]

I'm fairly certain Rich has a map drawn up for the world but never released anymore than he needed to in case it needed retconning. Hopefully once the books done, the full map will be in the bookform release and we'll find out Even Lettered Word is the capital :b

[Laurentio III]

Is it just me, or does MitD appear to be an entirely different creature in this latest comic? I'm not just referring to the thought of actively working against Xykon, either.

Using "Huh" as a self interjection?? Calling Xykon "Dude"???

This is not the same MitD.
It's the adolescence. Next step is erotic magazines.

[Mike Havran]

Is it just me, or does MitD appear to be an entirely different creature in this latest comic? I'm not just referring to the thought of actively working against Xykon, either.

Using "Huh" as a self interjection?? Calling Xykon "Dude"???

This is not the same MitD.MitD used "dude" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html)speech before, but yeah, he's getting bolder.

[alceryes]

MitD used "dude" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html)speech before, but yeah, he's getting bolder.

Hmmm. Is this the only other time...?
This also isn't directed at Xykon.


Also, yea Greyview! Keep the gloomy going!

[sirgarberto]

What exactly "ave" means varies from country to country. In some countries "ave" means all birds, and "pajaro" means small birds only.
It's not about the size, it's about whether it flies or not. It's not region-dependent either, it's a definition issue, exactly like fowl and bird. Just like in English you should only use "bird" when it's able to fly, the same is true for "pájaro". "Ave", like fowl, is a more general term and can be used for both flying and non-flying.


We can't write english slang words in this forum.
Fair, I just wanted to note it for context.


Over here, we say "el ave" y "el alma" which would make them male. Strange. Maybe, its a regional thing?
Funnily enough, that doesn't actually make them male; it's a grammatical rule based on vowels (you can't use "la" followed by any noun that starts with an "a"). They are still considered female for every other purpose, like any adjective that applies to them, as Clistenes noted (e.g., you say "el ave voladora", not "el ave volador").

[hroþila]

(you can't use "la" followed by any noun that starts with an "a")
With a stressed (h)a. Unstressed a's are fair game (e.g. "la alcoba").

[brian 333]

It's not about the size, it's about whether it flies or not. It's not region-dependent either, it's a definition issue, exactly like fowl and bird. Just like in English you should only use "bird" when it's able to fly, the same is true for "pájaro". "Ave", like fowl, is a more general term and can be used for both flying and non-flying.

I always thought 'fowl' was for birds you eat and bird was for the rest. Penguins and ostriches are birds that do not fly, and I have never heard the word 'fowl' applied to them. Geese and ducks do fly quite well and are usually referred to as 'waterfowl.'

[WanderingMist]

It's not about the size, it's about whether it flies or not. It's not region-dependent either, it's a definition issue, exactly like fowl and bird. Just like in English you should only use "bird" when it's able to fly, the same is true for "pájaro". "Ave", like fowl, is a more general term and can be used for both flying and non-flying.


Uh, pretty sure there are plenty of creatures called "flightless birds". Penguins, ostriches, kiwis, etc. "Fowl" isn't a more general term. "Fowl" is the original term for birds, cognate to German "Fugel", Norwegian "fugl" and so on. "Bird" comes from "brid", which originally meant "young bird". Now they are both pretty much equivalent, though you're likely to only see "fowl" in reference to "waterfowl".

[Provengreil]

MitD used "dude" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0190.html)speech before, but yeah, he's getting bolder.

His speech patterns have recently gotten more confident as a whole. I think pulling the wool over Team Evil's eyes about his deception, and his firm choice to be friends with O'chul, have given him a mental foundation to grow on, and we just haven't been allowed to see a lot of that on camera.

The seeds of this were buried in the escape from Azure City. TPing them out to safety was, I believe, the first time he used his powers for something real, rather than something relatively infantile. Since then, he's engaged in efforts to find O'chul, redirected Team Evil away from the Order at Girard's Gate, and successfully delayed TE about Kraagor's Doors*. He's honestly got to be feeling pretty good about himself right now and without visible mannerisms, speech patterns are the best way to show that.

*I know that his actual strategy was hit or miss if you assume the gate was behind a door, but the newer twist with the quinton has rendered his plan relatively successful: rather than pick up where they were, they're starting at door number 1 again and ignoring all of their past work. Basically, with a few swipes of paint he gave the order as much as half a day.

[Ruck]

The capital of Anywhere being What feeds into the Abbot and Costello origins of the joke. Yes would be the capital of Nowhere, No isn't a capital city and This would technically be a town, not a city.
What is the capital city of Anywhere?
Yes.
No, that's the capital of Nowhere.
No isn't the capital of Nowhere.
What?
That's right.
Let's start again... What is the capital of Anywhere?


I mean, I'm like 70% sure that the original introduction of Anywhere, Nowhere and such is a reference to that skit in the first place.


Make it 99%. The name of the strip is Who's On the Throne?

I certainly thought it was when I wrote this (https://www.the-solute.com/the-discipline-not-to-write-setting-the-shield-and-the-order-of-the-stick/). (Warning: Link to flagrant self-promotion of own article)

[Werbaer]

So, uh, what is the capital of Anywhere?
My guess: "No Clue". But Xykon couldn't say that.

[Quizatzhaderac]

I'm going to say that the capital of Anywhere is Couldbe.

Just like in English you should only use "bird" when it's able to flyFlightless birds are still birds. A fowl is any bird that's commonly eaten.

[JonahFalcon]

I'm probably the 100th person to note this, but "A parasol." is a sentence with 8 letters.

[Fyraltari]

I'm probably the 100th person to note this, but "A parasol." is a sentence with 8 letters.

The last word of the sentence is the only one that matters.

[Alcore]

You know he just might be correct on the capital name. Perhaps for all the wrong reasons...

[Laurentio III]

You know he just might be correct on the capital name. Perhaps for all the wrong reasons...
Four words... for all the wrong reason... oh my!

[LadyEowyn]

In English, “fowl” refers to two related groups of birds (broadly: ducks, geese, and their relatives; chickens, grouse, quail, and their relatives). Whether or not they can fly is not relevant (in general, they can, though many relatives of the chicken are fairly poor fliers). It’s a much more limited term than “bird” - no one would use “fowl” for a hummingbird, or a sparrow, or a heron, or an ostrich.

“Birds” refers to all birds, whether or not they can fly.

I don’t know if Spanish has a flying/flightless distinction in their terms for birds, but to my knowledge English does not.

[hroþila]

I don’t know if Spanish has a flying/flightless distinction in their terms for birds, but to my knowledge English does not.
Spanish has 'ave' as a general or sometimes higher-register term for 'bird', i.e. the class Aves as a whole. It can be modified by other words - for example, 'ave de corral' (lit. 'pen bird') means '(domestic) fowl'. The most common everyday word however is 'pájaro', which can be used as a general term, but is often reserved for smaller birds and especially for the Passeriformes ('pájaro' comes from colloquial Latin 'passarum', an unattested variant of classical Latin 'passer').

Flightless birds would be called 'aves no voladoras' (lit. 'non-flying birds'). Just like in English, it's kinda tacked on.

[LadyEowyn]

Spanish has 'ave' as a general or sometimes higher-register term for 'bird', i.e. the class Aves as a whole. It can be modified by other words - for example, 'ave de corral' (lit. 'pen bird') means '(domestic) fowl'. The most common everyday word however is 'pájaro', which can be used as a general term, but is often reserved for smaller birds and especially for the Passeriformes ('pájaro' comes from colloquial Latin 'passarum', an unattested variant of classical Latin 'passer').

Flightless birds would be called 'aves no voladoras' (lit. 'non-flying birds'). Just like in English, it's kinda tacked on.

Ooh that makes sense, thank you!

[Vikenlugaid]

The definition of "pájaro" in spanish is "ave, especialmente si es pequeña" (bird, specially if it is small). So tecnicaly it aplies to all the birds, though normally is used to small birds, but a vulture or an ostrich are "pajaros" too.
In zoology pajaro is casually used for birds of order passeriformes only.

EDIT: oh, I didn't read that message which explain this better.

[Thecommander236]

I bet anything that the capital of Anywhere is literally No-clue-at-all.

[WanderingMist]

The capital of Anywhere is clearly Anywhere.

[brian 333]

According to this stuff I just pulled out of my hat, the government of Anywhere is a constitutional monarchy with a direct democracy as its base government, so the authority of the kingdom is dispersed to all corners of the kingdom. Therefore the capitol of Anywhere is Everywhere.

[F.Harr]

I like when Redcloak gets have some sort of fun with his boss.

[Fyraltari]

constitutional monarchy with a direct democracy as its base government
Is the idea "everyone is the King" here?

[Metastachydium]

Is the idea "everyone is the King" here?

Alternatively, the monarch might be a figurehead with ceremonial powers only beyond the one vote they get as a citizen.

[Fyraltari]

Alternatively, the monarch might be a figurehead with ceremonial powers only beyond the one vote they get as a citizen.
Ceremonial powers are still powers.

[Metastachydium]

Ceremonial powers are still powers.

But not powers that ruly matter.

[alceryes]

I like when Redcloak gets have some sort of fun with his boss.

Definitely!
The "free gift with purchase," line killed me! :biggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

According to this stuff I just pulled out of my hat, the government of Anywhere is a constitutional monarchy with a direct democracy as its base government, so the authority of the kingdom is dispersed to all corners of the kingdom. Therefore the capitol of Anywhere is Everywhere. I like where you are going with this. :smallwink:

[Metastachydium]

According to this stuff I just pulled out of my hat, the government of Anywhere is a constitutional monarchy with a direct democracy as its base government, so the authority of the kingdom is dispersed to all corners of the kingdom. Therefore the capitol of Anywhere is Everywhere.


I like where you are going with this. :smallwink:

Clueless Foreigner: [Clearly confused.] And where is this "Everywhere", exactly?
Local Crowd: [All turning to stare ominously at Clueless Foreigner, in unison.] We Are Everywhere!

[Eric the White]

I wonder how much leeway the Quniton is willing to extend Xykon here. His stated goal is to impose order on chaos, which he cant do if he ends the contract on the least little messup, (like the one Xykon does in the last panel) On the other hand... being of pure law. This should be fun! :)

[Tzardok]

What messup in the last panel?

[alceryes]

I wonder how much leeway the Quniton is willing to extend Xykon here. His stated goal is to impose order on chaos, which he cant do if he ends the contract on the least little messup, (like the one Xykon does in the last panel) On the other hand... being of pure law. This should be fun! :)

Remember the Quinton just wants order generated. He doesn't necessarily care about catching Xykon on every single possible (not definite) mess up. Or, more specifically, the chaos being generated by the little bit of waffling Xykon is doing is nothing compared to the order being generated in Xykon having to think about what he is saying. My guess is that he'll let Xykon fumble and fumble again because you know what? ...ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching! More and more order up!

I also don't see anything wrong in the last panel. The last word of every sentence has an odd number of characters(?)

[wilphe]

Clueless Foreigner: [Clearly confused.] And where is this "Everywhere", exactly?
Local Crowd: [All turning to stare ominously at Clueless Foreigner, in unison.] We Are Everywhere!

One guy slowly puts hand up: I'm not

Omnes: Splitter!

[Metastachydium]

One guy slowly puts hand up: I'm not


Alternative Ending:
Crowd: [Mobs the guy and tears the poor soul to shreds.] Yes, you are!

[mjasghar]

Remember the Quinton just wants order generated. He doesn't necessarily care about catching Xykon on every single possible (not definite) mess up. Or, more specifically, the chaos being generated by the little bit of waffling Xykon is doing is nothing compared to the order being generated in Xykon having to think about what he is saying. My guess is that he'll let Xykon fumble and fumble again because you know what? ...ka-ching, ka-ching, ka-ching! More and more order up!

I also don't see anything wrong in the last panel. The last word of every sentence has an odd number of characters(?)

As a being of absolute law it will follow the letter of the contract

[Riftwolf]

Is the idea "everyone is the King" here?

How dare you! Everyone's the Seneschal! (They're also a critic)

[alceryes]

As a being of absolute law it will follow the letter of the contract

Definitely.
However, we are not privy to the exact number of seconds of pause the quinton will allow for continuing sentence clauses.
Not to mention the fact that, we see the word bubble, with all the words, at the same time and are not privy to how Xykon actually speaks them, or how long the pauses are.

So, we can never actually know when and where the quinton will draw the line, if at all.

Edit - Also, we don't have a copy of the contract. :smallbiggrin:

[Wintermoot]

As a being of absolute law it will follow the letter of the contract

Eh. I find that overstated.

We see plenty of beings of pure chaos who are able to follow orders and act in a hierarchy when it suits them.

No reason why a being of pure law can't ignore some bending of rules when it suits them.

[The MunchKING]

We see plenty of beings of pure chaos who are able to follow orders and act in a hierarchy when it suits them.

I don't know about that. The only being of Pure Chaos I really remember are the Salaads like the ones that were advising Elan when he thought about Law vs. Chaos. And they were pretty lolrandom.

[Tzardok]

*snerk* red salad, blue salad, death salad...

[Fyraltari]

Caesar Slaad was the most Lawful of them all and look where that got him.

[Eric the White]

What messup in the last panel?

He clearly ends a sentence with an even number of letters and then "fixes it."


Definitely.
However, we are not privy to the exact number of seconds of pause the quinton will allow for continuing sentence clauses.
Not to mention the fact that, we see the word bubble, with all the words, at the same time and are not privy to how Xykon actually speaks them, or how long the pauses are.

So, we can never actually know when and where the quinton will draw the line, if at all.

Edit - Also, we don't have a copy of the contract. :smallbiggrin:

Because we can see the word bubbles however we know that he made a small misstep. The first sentence ends with an even number of letters and an exclamation point. If the Quinton wanted too it could make an issue of it, but then no more order - plus Xykon will probably do something random just out of frustration. I imagine we will know where the Quinton draws the line - when it does it.

[Quizatzhaderac]

However, we are not privy to the exact number of seconds of pause the quinton will allow for continuing sentence clauses.
Not to mention the fact that, we see the word bubble, with all the words, at the same time and are not privy to how Xykon actually speaks them, or how long the pauses are.Xykon is able to read the word bubbles (He reacts to a speech bubble where his name is spelt with a Z), so maybe the Quinton can as well.

[mjasghar]

The mess up is in next to last panel not the last one - all his sentences in the last panel end in odd lettered words.

[jokem]

The capital of Anywhere is clearly Anywhere.

I have no clue at all...

[brian 333]

As a being of absolute law it will follow the letter of the contract

A contract is a meeting of the minds, and therefore attempting to fulfill the terms of a contract to the best of one's ability is considered fulfilling the contract.

In my opinion:
For a LG character, the letter of the contract is important, but the spirit of the contract is more so.
For a LE character the letter of the contract trumps its intent if by so doing one can leverage a gain, but if such gain can be more easily had by adhering to the spirit of the contract, then a token attempt to fulfill the letter is sufficient.
For a LN character, both spirit and letter have equal weight. If adhering more to the letter or to the spirit of the agreement fulfils the intent of the contract, then a token attempt to fulfill the weaker half could be deemed sufficient.

LG= I couldn't get the blue blankets you wanted, but I can get green. They will keep you just as warm.
LN= I can get warm green blankets, or blue linen sheets, take your pick.
LE= There are no blue blankets available until July, so you'll have to wait. No refunds, as I've already spent the money.

[bunsen_h]

A contract is a meeting of the minds, and therefore attempting to fulfill the terms of a contract to the best of one's ability is considered fulfilling the contract.

It really doesn't work that way. Some people vastly overcommit, promising things that they have no real hope of achieving. No matter how much effort they've expended in trying to fulfil those promises, they're not relieved of the consequences of failing to meet those commitments. At least not in a sane and functional legal system.

Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado notwithstanding:


When your Majesty says, "Let a thing be done," it's as good as done — practically, it is done — because your Majesty's will is law. Your Majesty says, "Kill a gentleman," and a gentleman is told off to be killed. Consequently, that gentleman is as good as dead — practically, he is dead — and if he is dead, why not say so?

Years ago, I was treasurer for an organization. My successor wanted to transfer the group's savings from our old bank to another. She tried and she tried, unsuccessfully, because she kept refusing to follow the old bank's established procedure for doing so: to send that bank the necessary form, with the necessary signatures, to direct them to release the funds. Instead, she kept trying to get the new bank to have the funds moved over to them on her say-so. (If it worked that way, I'd create an account at my local bank in the name of the Gates Foundation and have them transfer money from Richmond. Oddly enough, it doesn't work that way.) She seemed to think that she ought to get credit for expending all that effort, despite not accomplishing the goal.

[brian 333]

Yes, sometimes people cannot deliver on their half of a contract and it defaults. That is very different from giving good faith effort and renegotiating the agreement. And in the end, if one party is unhappy with the result, they can seek remedies. In arbitration a neutral party will consider just how much the good faith effort was worth.

In Xykon's case, the modron may choose to allow a slip here and there to further it's goal of increased order through Xykon's attempt to fulfill the contract. If it cancels service after the first mistake, it will miss future opportunities for gain.

[Kornaki]

I think that's the misunderstanding. Contract law is *never* an ironclad agreement that somebody will do something. You only get that guarantee with crypto.

Instead contact law is about constructing a series of escalating consequences for breaching the written word of the agreement, both agreed upon in the contract, implicitly enforced by the history of contract law, and also just based on whatever ad hoc adjustments the two parties agree to in the moment.

[mjasghar]

This is a fantasy world with beings of pure law
Real world law allows negotiations and renegotiation and paying money into the judge’s election fund
That’s not what we have here

[BloodSquirrel]

This is a fantasy world with beings of pure law
Real world law allows negotiations and renegotiation and paying money into the judge’s election fund
That’s not what we have here

Except that, if you read into serious legal philosophy, you quickly find out that "The letter of the law" can never be 100% explicit regarding all possibilities, and always relies on existing convention and dumb human languages which themselves are vague and allow room for interpretation.

And this isn't just a practical problem. It's a fundamental one, along the same lines as the "is-ought divide". There is no completely non-ambiguous law or language in which it could be expressed that can be observed as an objective fact of reality on which human laws and contracts can be built on top of.

Case in point: Why is signing your name at the bottom of a piece of paper considered an iron-clad symbol of agreement to it? That's a highly arbitrary notion when you think about it. It's just a convention that is so old and so commonly accepted that nobody challenges it- a "being of pure law and order" wouldn't be able to justify it any more than you or I could.

[brian 333]

This is a fantasy world with beings of pure law
Real world law allows negotiations and renegotiation and paying money into the judge’s election fund
That’s not what we have here

What is being described is not pure law, but pure order. The modron contracted for a trivially miniscule increase in the order of the universe. By negating the contract at the earliest opportunity, the miniscule increase in order cannot achieve its maximum potential.

The modron has every incentive to overlook errors that Xykon immediately tries to correct, and zero incentive to declare breach of contract until it's aims are obviously no longer achievable.

Example: I contract for the purchase of 1000 liters of salad oil per week. The party with whom I have contracted discovers he can only make 1000 quarts available per week, and is willing to adjust the price to compensate, but cannot secure additional quarts to make up the shortage.

I could terminate the contract, but in arbitration the judge will ask why the offer is not sufficient. The arbitrator will want to know the degree of harm I incur. Assuming 1000 quarts is all that is available on the market, I may incur even greater loss by terminating the contract. It is in my best interest to renegotiate, and contract law has procedures in place which allow just that.

So, the question is not how quickly the contract can be terminated, but how many failures the modron can tolerate before the terms of the bargain are no longer achieving its intended result, in however meagre a portion.

[mjasghar]

There’s no point continuing a discussion when there’s no addressing of the points raised.

[brian 333]

There’s no point continuing a discussion when there’s no addressing of the points raised.

Please specify. I thought I was addressing the points raised.

[Ruck]

In Xykon's case, the modron may choose to allow a slip here and there to further it's goal of increased order through Xykon's attempt to fulfill the contract. If it cancels service after the first mistake, it will miss future opportunities for gain.

I do think this is a pretty solid observation, and it would make sense if the Quinton simply didn't blink out if Xykon failed once, but somehow waited or compelled him to continue trying. (Indeed, I've been having a hard time determining if Xykon is actually working on following the contract himself, or if it somehow compels him to finish every sentence with an odd-lettered word.)

[mjasghar]

Please specify. I thought I was addressing the points raised.

My point is this is not a real world court which is influenced by the culture of the country you live in - your example isn’t how it would work in the uk. Real world law is a combination of a surface attempt to seem LG or even NG combined with a lot of LN or even CE. And that’s even in seemingly modern developed nations. Your arguments are based on your own culture and the principles of law applied there.
This is the Oots world which is a parody of d&d and to an extent other franchises. This is a world where a spell requires a diamond and that diamond is obtained by going to an earlier page. A world where peoples weapons physically change as the edition changes.
Wrongeye agreed to a magical contract with a being dedicated to pure law and order - a being allegedly a fraction of the prime architect who serves the Visage of the prime architect (according to dragon 414)
As an example of how the system works - remember the celestial that was about to discover something wondrous and then gets summoned? If you could twist the contract of the summons he could easily have twisted it to make sure he answered the call a bit later.
If you address my points then we can continue discussing. If you do what you’ve done previously and continue with the line that this is what real life American lawyers do then there’s no point and I’ll ignore you from now on.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you address my points then we can continue discussing. If you do what you’ve done previously and continue with the line that this is what real life American lawyers do then there’s no point and I’ll ignore you from now on. Given that the author is American, your objection is overdone.
You write what you know.
The assumptions that brian is working off of are valid given who is writing the strip. That does not make your point invalid in the larger sense - OotS world works as it works by the whims of the author, and the strip is based in a game as well as the clunky alignment system of that game - but it certainly puts your 'tossing the toys out of the pram' ultimatum in a poor light.

[mjasghar]

One of the points raised was the case would go to arbitration so it’s better to not go there and just ignore violations
So tell me how the modron is going to go to arbitration?
And again you’re just ignoring my point and saying the comic should run like modern American law. Since we don’t see the lawyer characters turning up to advise Redcloak not to sign etc I don’t see any sign of these being taken before a judge let alone one who can be openly bribed via donations