On Girard's Opinion Of Soon In Comic #695

[WanderingMist]

This has been bugging me for a long time: Girard told Soon that "[Soon] should have died in that rift". Girard puts all the blame on Soon. But it's not like Girard tried to save either of them by getting them out of range of the spell. And despite what Dorukan says on the next page about Soon avenging his dead wife, I'm inclined to believe Soon also thinks he should have died in the rift, and possibly that Kraagor pushed him out of the way to prevent him from sacrificing himself.

[Mic_128]

This has been bugging me for a long time: Girard told Soon that "[Soon] should have died in that rift". Girard puts all the blame on Soon. But it's not like Girard tried to save either of them by getting them out of range of the spell.

No, but if you look at the facts -

1. Soon was the one who seemingly started the party, or at least acting against the snarl, primarily because it killed his wife. It's not surprising that he'd be more motivated and invested than the other adventurers.

2. He wasn't the closest to the final portal when-

3. He ordered the closure of the rift, which killed their dear friend.

I can totally see why Girard would say that Soon should have been the one to die.

[Ruck]

The Giant has hinted that at some point in this book we'll get more details about what really happened to break up the Scribble, so I expect some of these questions will be answered before the end of the story.

[Fyraltari]

The Giant has hinted that at some point in this book we'll get more details about what really happened to break up the Scribble, so I expect some of these questions will be answered before the end of the story.

Yup. I feel like Roy's line just prior ("What the hell happened between these people to turn them against each other like this?") is a pretty clear clue that we haven't got a full picture yet. I hope Serini explains things soon.

[Ruck]

Yup. I feel like Roy's line just prior ("What the hell happened between these people to turn them against each other like this?") is a pretty clear clue that we haven't got a full picture yet. I hope Serini explains things soon.

I found something in the chapter 1 Blood Runs in the Family commentary that hints at it a little:


After all, the story of how [Girard Draketooth] and Kim Soon came to such bitterness is part of the hidden history of the world, and I couldn’t resist teasing it just a bit here.

That's not the quote I'm thinking of, but I think it does imply that he intends to do more than just tease it in the future. But I think he actually said something like "There's more to the breakup of the Order of the Scribble that has yet to be revealed" somewhere else.

[Metastachydium]

That's not the quote I'm thinking of, but I think it does imply that he intends to do more than just tease it in the future. But I think he actually said something like "There's more to the breakup of the Order of the Scribble that has yet to be revealed" somewhere else.

I have the impression that you might be looking for this one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24215188&postcount=5):


there's also, I mean there are certain events that happened in that history between Girard and Soon Kim that have not been revealed that will certainly maybe make him seem a little less paranoid than he does right now, but not not-paranoid. But yeah, there's more there going on with what happened with the Order of the Scribble than has been revealed. But that's all gonna be unwound as the story comes towards its conclusion.

[Ruck]

That does seem like the one, thanks!

I knew I'd read it recently; I'd forgotten I perused the quote thread again a while back.

[Mike Havran]

It may also be that Girard just wanted to insult Soon as deeply as he could, since he also ragged on his gods.

[WanderingMist]

No, but if you look at the facts -

1. Soon was the one who seemingly started the party, or at least acting against the snarl, primarily because it killed his wife. It's not surprising that he'd be more motivated and invested than the other adventurers.

2. He wasn't the closest to the final portal when-

3. He ordered the closure of the rift, which killed their dear friend.

I can totally see why Girard would say that Soon should have been the one to die.

True, but I suppose my real question is do you think Kraagor would have done the same thing if he and Soon had swapped positions? And would Girard have had any problem with Soon being the one to die in the rift had it happened that way?

[theangelJean]

No, but if you look at the facts -

1. Soon was the one who seemingly started the party, or at least acting against the snarl, primarily because it killed his wife. It's not surprising that he'd be more motivated and invested than the other adventurers.

2. He wasn't the closest to the final portal when-

3. He ordered the closure of the rift, which killed their dear friend.

I can totally see why Girard would say that Soon should have been the one to die.

I just noticed that the last two "facts" come from a visual depiction (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) of Soon's account of the story.

And also that paladins may not lie, but they will omit aspects of the events to protect others (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0663.html), even if that unfairly implicates themselves.

Now I really want to know what actually happened.

[Trixie_One]

I think it's just as simple as saying that Girard is a horrible person.

I've long felt that just as Miko was an exploration of how playing too Lawful can be really obnoxious, Girard is what happens when you swing too far over into the Chaotic side of the alignment equation.

He's reflexively cynical and flippant long past the point where it's helpful to him and has became a fuil on character flaw. A flaw that makes him an utter git to have around. Pretty much every line of dialogue he has is designed to jab and needle at Soon to prove himself right that he's better than him. Even when Soon might not be around he's just as happy taking it out on Soon's paladins.

[ti'esar]

I'm pretty sure Girard got worse after the Scribblers broke up, though - and the opposite may have held for Soon. I mean, apart from the fact that we literally have a quote from Rich saying we're missing context that would make Girard's position more understandable... I've always felt that Soon's words to Miko about redemption imply a degree of firsthand knowledge. I'm not saying he ever fell or anything, but the noble Ghost-Martyr Soon we saw may have been a better man than the one who allegedly 'let' Kraagor die.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Giant has hinted that at some point in this book we'll get more details about what really happened to break up the Scribble, so I expect some of these questions will be answered before the end of the story. Yes, but that's never stopped anyone from proposing a variety of variant before, has it? :smallbiggrin:


I think it's just as simple as saying that Girard is a horrible person.

I've long felt that just as Miko was an exploration of how playing too Lawful can be really obnoxious, Girard is what happens when you swing too far over into the Chaotic side of the alignment equation. Typical Sorcerer: charismatic, egomaniac, selfish, cynical: gee, kinda like Xykon. :smallyuk:

[BloodSquirrel]

Just to throw this out there: There being more to the story does not necessarily mean that Girard's opinion of Soon was more justified than we currently have reason to think. It could be that Girard was even more of an ass than we've seen so far, or it could also mean that there were just events that Girard interpreted through the lens of his own narrative to validate his own opinion of Soon.

Even if Soon did make some mistakes and have some of his own flaws, Girard still may be completely backwards on how he thinks about them. After all, one thing we do know for certain is that Girard was wrong about Soon sending his paladins over to "check up" within a couple of weeks. I'm not saying that Soon was a perfect hero, but I think that Girard is completely off-base about him, no matter what his flaws may have been.

[ZhonLord]

I'd also like to point out that even Girard's own teammate called him paranoid (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1228.html), so it's entirely probable that the other Scribble team members also had issues with their resident illusionist.

[littlebum2002]

Just to throw this out there: There being more to the story does not necessarily mean that Girard's opinion of Soon was more justified than we currently have reason to think.

I mean, that pretty much exactly what Rich said was going to happen though.

there's also, I mean there are certain events that happened in that history between Girard and Soon Kim that have not been revealed that will certainly maybe make him seem a little less paranoid than he does right now, but not not-paranoid.

His portrayal so far has been nothing but unjustified paranoia towards Soon, so the only way for him to seem (a little) less paranoid is if (some of) his paranoia was justified.

[Rrmcklin]

Personally, I've always liked the idea that Soon could genuinely be more responsible for the Order of the Scribbles break up while still genuinely being a much better person that Girard, and certainly better than he thought.

People are complicated and even good people can make terrible mistakes. I think the comic has already done a lot with that, so it's not like it would be out of nowhere.

I will say though, even with that I've always found the way some people implicitly demonize Soon while going easier on Girard strange. I guess it has to do with anti-Paladin bias or whatever.

[Gurgeh]

"People getting mad at a made-up version of Soon who lives in their heads and was never depicted in the comic" is a persistent theme on this forum, so yes, that last bit checks out.

[BloodSquirrel]

I mean, that pretty much exactly what Rich said was going to happen though.


His portrayal so far has been nothing but unjustified paranoia towards Soon, so the only way for him to seem (a little) less paranoid is if (some of) his paranoia was justified.

My point was, very specifically, that this does not logically follow.

It is easy to come up with ways in which Girard could seem less paranoid without Soon being at fault. A third party having giving Girard false or biased information, for example, or Soon doing something which was entirely in line with his ethics and conception of honor which Girard, due to his ideological differences, took offense to.

Based specifically on the text that we have seen so far: Soon appears to hold the idea of self-sacrifice in higher regard that Girard. Giving an order which put both his and Kraggor's lives at risk would be perfectly honorable according to his worldview- they both chose to accept the risk, and Kraggor's death was a regretful, but honorable consequence. Girard does not think that Soon had the right to give that order, even if Kraggor was fighting next to him of his own free will and was (presumably) aware of the risks.

[Fyraltari]

My point was, very specifically, that this does not logically follow.

It is easy to come up with ways in which Girard could seem less paranoid without Soon being at fault. A third party having giving Girard false or biased information, for example, or Soon doing something which was entirely in line with his ethics and conception of honor which Girard, due to his ideological differences, took offense to.

Based specifically on the text that we have seen so far: Soon appears to hold the idea of self-sacrifice in higher regard that Girard. Giving an order which put both his and Kraggor's lives at risk would be perfectly honorable according to his worldview- they both chose to accept the risk, and Kraggor's death was a regretful, but honorable consequence. Girard does not think that Soon had the right to give that order, even if Kraggor was fighting next to him of his own free will and was (presumably) aware of the risks.

We also know that Soon was something of a classist (the SG was founded out of members of Azurite nobility only) we don't really know Girard's background but if he was lower-class (hah!), dragon-heritage aside, it's possible that Soon was unintentionally hurtful, and Girard always assume the worst from him or something.

Is suspect we'll learn that the break-up of the Order of the Scribble was a bit of everyone's fault, personally.

[Keltest]

We also know that Soon was something of a classist (the SG was founded out of members of Azurite nobility only) we don't really know Girard's background but if he was lower-class (hah!), dragon-heritage aside, it's possible that Soon was unintentionally hurtful, and Girard always assume the worst from him or something.

Is suspect we'll learn that the break-up of the Order of the Scribble was a bit of everyone's fault, personally.

It may not strictly be classism. Knights and the equivalent are expensive. Soon may very well have been unable or unwilling to pay for the Sapphire Guard's upkeep out of his own pockets, or the city's pockets. Just a suit of unenchanted plate armor costs 1500 GP, which if my understanding of 3.5's default assumed economics is correct, represents about 40 years of income for a peasant, before accounting for their own expenses. For just the unenchanted armor with no special materials.

[TaiLiu]

We also know that Soon was something of a classist (the SG was founded out of members of Azurite nobility only) we don't really know Girard's background but if he was lower-class (hah!), dragon-heritage aside, it's possible that Soon was unintentionally hurtful, and Girard always assume the worst from him or something.
That's a really good point. I think practically all our depictions of him are Good and heroic (except maybe the crayon flashback when he orders the rift shut), but it does seem likely that he was the one who implemented the nobility-only paladin prerequisite.* That's not a good look, but he might've learned better while a deathless martyr. He certainly never brings it up or take offense at the commoners in his ranks.

* It needn't be him, since it's possible that a noble-only rule came only after he died, but I think it's more likely that he was responsible for it.


It may not strictly be classism. Knights and the equivalent are expensive. Soon may very well have been unable or unwilling to pay for the Sapphire Guard's upkeep out of his own pockets, or the city's pockets. Just a suit of unenchanted plate armor costs 1500 GP, which if my understanding of 3.5's default assumed economics is correct, represents about 40 years of income for a peasant, before accounting for their own expenses. For just the unenchanted armor with no special materials.
Well, we see O-Chul wearing the colors of the Sapphire Guard during the final pages of "How the Paladin Got His Scar." So either the city could afford to give him his armor or he bought it, and he certainly was never depicted wealthy.

[Peelee]

That's a really good point. I think practically all our depictions of him are Good and heroic (except maybe the crayon flashback when he orders the rift shut), but it does seem likely that he was the one who implemented the nobility-only paladin prerequisite.* That's not a good look, but he might've learned better while a deathless martyr. He certainly never brings it up or take offense at the commoners in his ranks.

If you were born on a mountain it's easy to assume that the view is normal. The Sapphire Guard was a secret organization, so it's most likely they did their own private recruiting, and nobles know nobles. It's easy to imagine this was not intentionally done but just came about as happenstance and became systemic quickly and subtly.

[TaiLiu]

If you were born on a mountain it's easy to assume that the view is normal. The Sapphire Guard was a secret organization, so it's most likely they did their own private recruiting, and nobles know nobles. It's easy to imagine this was not intentionally done but just came about as happenstance and became systemic quickly and subtly.
I don't have the book with me right now. Do you remember if the nobility thing was a rule, or was it just that everyone was a noble (and many were elitist)?

[Keltest]

Well, we see O-Chul wearing the colors of the Sapphire Guard during the final pages of "How the Paladin Got His Scar." So either the city could afford to give him his armor or he bought it, and he certainly was never depicted wealthy.

As I recall, the city's lord did not command the Guard until after Soon's retirement/death, when he handed the position over. That may have resulted in the change of funding available.

[TaiLiu]

As I recall, the city's lord did not command the Guard until after Soon's retirement/death, when he handed the position over. That may have resulted in the change of funding available.
That's possible. But I guess I don't consider it likely. The ruling family always seemed intertwined with the Sapphire Guard's affairs. They built the castle around the rift, after all. I'd be surprised if Soon had to personally fund it or something (though I'm sure he'd be willing to pump his adventuring money into his Guard).

[Keltest]

That's possible. But I guess I don't consider it likely. The ruling family always seemed intertwined with the Sapphire Guard's affairs. They built the castle around the rift, after all. I'd be surprised if Soon had to personally fund it or something (though I'm sure he'd be willing to pump his adventuring money into his Guard).

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.

[TaiLiu]

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.
Huh? I don't think so. Comic 411 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0411.html) depicts the rift inside the sapphire. And every other depiction of a gate shows the gate around the rift, not below it and physically separate.

[brian 333]

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.

The tower was built around the sapphire which contained the much smaller rift. The throne was built and set onto the sapphire after the rift was sealed. It is not until the tower is collapsed that we see the rift in the sky.

[dave_smith354]

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.

Xykon's new tower, while still taller than any other building in Azure City, is a bit lower and to one side of the original tower. I think that may be confusing some people. We do see the rift inside the Sapphire before Miko breaks it.

[hamishspence]

The Giant went into more detail:


The gem reinforces the Gate; the gem is NOT the Gate, and the Gate is not the seal, and the seal is not the rift. The gem is the deadbolt, not the lock, or the door, or the doorway. The "door" is a complex spell that is not actually visible but is what Dorukan and Lirian are casting in the first panel of the second page of #276. The "lock" is the Gate, a tiny magical object that later had a throne crafted around it; it's about the size of a raisin in the case of Azure City. The "doorway" is the rift itself, and it is not really inside the gemstone, it's just that the gem (and Gate) are translucent and we can see through it (because it's a visual medium and it made it easier to understand). The gemstone is an enchanted object that further seals and reinforces the Gate; thus, the "deadbolt."

When Soon hands over the Sapphire to Shojo's father, he is essentially giving the last piece of the Gate's security system over so that it might be put into place. Think of the Sapphire as an additional seal that Soon and his followers came up with. The Sapphire does not NEED to be in the same place as the Gate in order to seal it, because it's magic, but moving it around is risky. There's a chance that it will just fail and the Gate will swing open. Before the panel shown, Soon likely kept it somewhere else safe, but chose as he was dying to consolidate the protections (because that's where he was going to be hanging out as a ghost-martyr). I guess the magic might have been stronger being in the same spot as the Gate, too.

So, no, the Gate or the rift could not have been physically moved. The Sapphire could be moved, and Xykon would have been obligated to track it down and undo its magic before he could perform his ritual, but there would be a risk in doing so, and it wouldn't really have stopped Xykon from sieging the city at that point (because he still would have needed the immovable Gate).

The use of Redcloak's magic ritual to shift the Gate into another plane is entirely unrelated, and in fact can only shift a Gate to another plane—not to another place in THIS plane. Think of it like moving a Bag of Holding from the Prime to an Outer Plane: you've moved the entranceway to an extradimensional space, but opening it still leads to the same interior.

Hopefully, that clears the issue up.

[TaiLiu]

The Giant went into more detail:
Thanks for the quote! So there's a tiny gate on the chair and then that gate was reinforced by the sapphire. I wonder what would have happened if there never was a gate built. Would the hole be as big as it is now?

[Fyraltari]

Thanks for the quote! So there's a tiny gate on the chair and then that gate was reinforced by the sapphire. I wonder what would have happened if there never was a gate built. Would the hole be as big as it is now?

The gods would have blown up the world sixty years ago.

[TaiLiu]

The gods would have blown up the world sixty years ago.
Oh, was not blowing up the world contingent on the existence of the gates? I guess I was under the impression that there had to be a certain level of danger first. Like, the hairline crack in Azure City maybe wouldn't be a big deal. But hypothetical histories gets messy.

[Keltest]

Oh, was not blowing up the world contingent on the existence of the gates? I guess I was under the impression that there had to be a certain level of danger first. Like, the hairline crack in Azure City maybe wouldn't be a big deal. But hypothetical histories gets messy.

The rifts are basically stress fractures in reality. Without the gates, theyll spread, multiply or both until the whole thing unravels anyway. Blowing up the world is just a preemptive measure to give them time to get the new one running before the Snarl acts.

[Sigako]

It sounds to me like Girard has some dirt on his hands as well and is desperately trying to shift the blame. And after a while he started believing in his own narrative.

[Fyraltari]

Oh, was not blowing up the world contingent on the existence of the gates? I guess I was under the impression that there had to be a certain level of danger first. Like, the hairline crack in Azure City maybe wouldn't be a big deal. But hypothetical histories gets messy.

Quoth Heimdal: (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)


Many of us voted to spare this world these rifts first appeared. But here we are, scant decades later, and the plan to let the mortals patch this on their own has failed.

[MReav]

Call me cynical but I at least somewhat expect Girard to have been only slightly less than fully justified in his paranoia towards Soon and for Soon to have really been a terrible person only technically remaining a paladin by game mechanics fiat. Going by his interactions with Miko, maybe being dead mellowed him out a bit, but it could just be (game) classism, where Miko, despite being an embodiment of everything wrong with being a paladin, still was a paladin (at some point in her life) and therefor better than anyone that has never had a paladin class, so he's nice to her, where if some random Azurite soldier had saved the day instead of Miko snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, said soldier would be subjected to a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou speech that would have tempted the soldier into smashing the Sapphire just to spite him.

[Rrmcklin]

Call me cynical but I at least somewhat expect Girard to have been only slightly less than fully justified in his paranoia towards Soon and for Soon to have really been a terrible person only technically remaining a paladin by game mechanics fiat. Going by his interactions with Miko, maybe being dead mellowed him out a bit, but it could just be (game) classism, where Miko, despite being an embodiment of everything wrong with being a paladin, still was a paladin (at some point in her life) and therefor better than anyone that has never had a paladin class, so he's nice to her, where if some random Azurite soldier had saved the day instead of Miko snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, said soldier would be subjected to a sanctimonious, holier-than-thou speech that would have tempted the soldier into smashing the Sapphire just to spite him.

And you're bassing this expectation off of what, exactly? I don't know if cynical is the right word this just doesn't seem grounded in... anything?

This goes back to the thing I said about people apparently just assuming Soon must be a horrible person, but being willing to ignore much more obvious evidence that Girard was a terrible person because reasons.

[MReav]

And you're bassing this expectation off of what, exactly? I don't know if cynical is the right word this just doesn't seem grounded in... anything?

This goes back to the thing I said about people apparently just assuming Soon must be a horrible person, but being willing to ignore much more obvious evidence that Girard was a terrible person because reasons.

Just a general sense that I expect traditionally "good" types being murderous, genocidal zealots as a 'twist'.

[brian 333]

Just a general sense that I expect traditionally "good" types being murderous, genocidal zealots as a 'twist'.

That edgy trope reversal has been so overplayed that it is more likely to be a trope reversal reversal, and it will turn out that Soon was a nice guy who was treated like crap for no reason except for Girard's paranoia.

My bet is somewhere in the middle: Soon was a nice guy who lost someone he loved. He was driven to fix the problem, and his dedication allowed Girard the excuse to accuse him of horrible motivations for every decision.

Soon was a good leader, but Girard was a horrible follower. Soon made decisions and acted on them: Girard second-guessed them and ridiculed them from the safety of never having to come up with better solutions. It is easy to tear down someone who is doing his best in difficult circumstances, and that's all Girard appeared to want to do.

A second in command has an obligation to support his leader. Not blindly, but with his best good-faith effort. There may have been reasons Girard disagreed with Soon. That's okay. But then what?

Soon may not have been the perfect paladin, but we really have no evidence of that. We do have evidence that Girard was a jerk to him. Maybe that was the problem.

[Peelee]

Going by his interactions with Miko, maybe being dead mellowed him out a bit

According to the author that is impossible. People cannot grow any more once they are dead.

[hamishspence]

In the Outer Planes, yes - but Soon doesn't reside in the Outer Planes, he resides in the Azure City Throne Room.

[Tzardok]

In the Outer Planes, yes - but Soon doesn't reside in the Outer Planes, he resides in the Azure City Throne Room.

Do we know that for sure? The descriptions of those Deathless in BoED say that they spend most of their time in the afterlife and only return (into their body or as incorporeal creatures) temporarily for a job, like defending their grave. That could also be the case for the Ghost Martyrs.

Sure, the Deathless in Eberron don't work like that, but a) this isn't Eberron, and b) we don't know what "species" of Deathless the Ghost Martyrs are.

[hamishspence]

In the bonus strip to War & XPs where Shojo dismisses Eugene, he makes the point that Eugene's presence is objectionable to other beings present - clearly referencing the Ghost Martyrs, with the implication that they are present but invisible.

The relevant quotes about Not Learning Things:


Dead souls cannot earn XP, gain levels, learn feats, or increase skills.


you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

don't apply to Undead beings like Xykon (who specifically does gain XP in Serini's dungeon) - so why would they apply to Deathless or to Ghosts?


Do we know that for sure? The descriptions of those Deathless in BoED say that they spend most of their time in the afterlife and only return (into their body or as incorporeal creatures) temporarily for a job, like defending their grave.

That's the Crypt Warden, which possesses its own corporeal corpse. It's also not a template - all crypt wardens have identical stats.

The OOTS ones much more closely resemble the incorporeal Sacred Watcher (also in BoED), which is a template applied to the original being, and they spend their time on the Ethereal Plane, rather than the Outer Planes - watching over their ward but invisible - until the need comes, and they manifest in a similar way to a ghost.

[Fyraltari]

The relevant quotes about Not Learning Things:





don't apply to Undead beings like Xykon (who specifically does gain XP in Serini's dungeon) - so why would they apply to Deathless or to Ghosts?

Also, I'm pretty sure the Giant said that in the afterlife the only "change" that happens is becoming more and more defined by your alignment until you are just as pure alignment as the outsiders. Soon being LG, it wouldn't be abnormal for him to become better in the afterlife (and stricter too).

[ti'esar]

TBH I don't think any of this discussion about whether Soon could undergo character development post-death matters (though it is relevant to one of my other personal theories) when he could easily also simply have become a better person while alive, between the Scribblers breaking up and his death. We've seen both fanatical, hateful paladins in-name-only and genuinely noble, ideal, I'd-base-my-PC-on-this paladins in OOTS, so MReav's argument seems pretty far-fetched, but like I said before it's certainly possible Soon did change for the better to a much less exaggerated degree, and I've always kind of suspected as much.

[littlebum2002]

According to the author that is impossible. People cannot grow any more once they are dead.

Roy certainly seemed to gain a lot of knowledge (including knowledge of the Spell Splinter maneuver) while he was dead.

[danielxcutter]

He still had to burn a feat slot of his own for it.

[MReav]

He still had to burn a feat slot of his own for it.

One could argue that's him training to get his physical muscles to pull the move off.

[hamishspence]

Roy certainly seemed to gain a lot of knowledge (including knowledge of the Spell Splinter maneuver) while he was dead.


He still had to burn a feat slot of his own for it.


One could argue that's him training to get his physical muscles to pull the move off.

The Giant on the subject:



No, Roy learned of a new swordfighting technique in Celestia, which he then mastered after returning to life. Dead souls cannot earn XP, gain levels, learn feats, or increase skills.

EDIT: I went back and read #600 and I can see how the dialogue can lead to the belief that Roy had actually mastered the technique. However, note that in panel #3, Horace reminds him he needs to spend a feat on it. If I had to reconcile that strip with what I said above, I would say that if Roy stayed in Celestia, the knowledge of the trick would have quickly faded from his mind. Even if he learned it over and over again, it would never "stick" in his head for more than a day or two.

[littlebum2002]

The Giant on the subject:

Yes, I understand that he still needed to burn the feat to get it when he came back to life, but the very fact that he learned it that existed while dead (and that he learned about Belkar killing the oracle, and about Belkar's death prophecy, and everything else he learned while dead) means that dead people can gain knowledge about things.

That also makes me wonder what he would have done if he had been scrying on V instead of Haley at the time and witnessed the Familicide first hand.

[hamishspence]

dead people can gain knowledge about things.

Sure - but what they can't do, is increase their Knowledge skill rank - a person who died with Knowledge (the planes) 10 ranks, is never going to reach 11 ranks, no matter how much their fellow souls tell them.

[Resileaf]

Knowledge ranks don't really matter as far as learning new things go. It's more a tool for a DM to go "Roll to see if you've heard of or studied this obscure information outside of the adventure." If someone knowledgeable about planes told you a very obscure fact about planes, you wouldn't need an extra skill rank to remember or use that information, but with a sufficient knowledge rank you would have already known about it.

[Dragonus45]

If you were born on a mountain it's easy to assume that the view is normal. The Sapphire Guard was a secret organization, so it's most likely they did their own private recruiting, and nobles know nobles. It's easy to imagine this was not intentionally done but just came about as happenstance and became systemic quickly and subtly.

From a certain point of view it could even appear fairly reasonable. In an ideal version of the system they live under someone from the nobility would understand the responsibilities of their station and already be trained to be responsible, competent, and have the best interests of their society in mind for all of their actions. Your life is somewhat under a microscope as well since everyone networks together and knows one another, so your peers would be able to have an idea of who you are as a person as well.

[Fyraltari]

From a certain point of view it could even appear fairly reasonable. In an ideal version of the system they live under someone from the nobility would understand the responsibilities of their station and already be trained to be responsible, competent, and have the best interests of their society in mind for all of their actions. Your life is somewhat under a microscope as well since everyone networks together and knows one another, so your peers would be able to have an idea of who you are as a person as well.

Okay, but the fact that the nobility of Azure City is very much not that is apparently well-known. So the kind of person who would assume that nobles are better suoted for the job would have to be classist.

[TaiLiu]

The rifts are basically stress fractures in reality. Without the gates, theyll spread, multiply or both until the whole thing unravels anyway. Blowing up the world is just a preemptive measure to give them time to get the new one running before the Snarl acts.

Quoth Heimdal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html)...
Thanks for clarifying, you two. I'd forgotten that the rifts were super recent. I misremembered and thought they were around for a while and only became known when Soon's wife stumbled upon it. :smallsmile:

[brian 333]

To have the available time and resources required to train as a paladin requires a certain degree of wealth. The offspring of nobles have that. They also have the luxury of growing up an idealist because they never had to choose between stealing and going hungry, or any of the many compromises the poor must make to survive.

Galahad was not a better knight than Lancelot: he grew up in a nunnery where temptation and torment did not exist to force him to compromise his ideals.

[Fyraltari]

To have the available time and resources required to train as a paladin requires a certain degree of wealth. The offspring of nobles have that. They also have the luxury of growing up an idealist because they never had to choose between stealing and going hungry, or any of the many compromises the poor must make to survive.

Galahad was not a better knight than Lancelot: he grew up in a nunnery where temptation and torment did not exist to force him to compromise his ideals.

Counterpoints: O-Chul, Lien, Miko.

[brian 333]

Counterpoints: O-Chul, Lien, Miko.

Counter-counterpoints:
O'Chul did quite a few years in training to get his fighting skills and Miko started training when Soon adopted her. Both were products of available time and resources for training, and neither were recruited by the SG.

I don't know Lien's backstory, but even if she was a commoner who suddenly woke up dressed in SG armor with knowledge and skills intact and ready to go, one exception does not disprove a general pattern.

[Fyraltari]

Counter-counterpoints:
O'Chul did quite a few years in training to get his fighting skills and Miko started training when Soon adopted her. Both were products of available time and resources for training, and neither were recruited by the SG.

I don't know Lien's backstory, but even if she was a commoner who suddenly woke up dressed in SG armor with knowledge and skills intact and ready to go, one exception does not disprove a general pattern.
No, no, no, no. You said that becoming a paladin necessitated wealth in order to receive the proper training.
O-Chul was born in abject poverty to a couple of highwaypeople and then adopted by a sergeant. He didn't unlist in the SG until he had a glorious beard on his chin. Hell, him being working-class when he got recruited is part of the point.

Miko was an orphan raised in some monastery until Shojo adopted her, at which point she already had a couple of Monk levels.

Lien was destined to become a fisherwoman like her parents. Strictly working-class too. And judging by Pier Pressure, her financial background wasn't even taken into consideration when deciding to recruit her.

Edit: None of them were wealthy before (or even after joining). It's pretty clear that the Sapphire Guard can afford to train its own members once they join and doesn't require prior fighting experience.

Edit the second: Also

The offspring of nobles [...] have the luxury of growing up an idealist because they never had to choose between stealing and going hungry, or any of the many compromises the poor must make to survive.
Again, I know a paladin who did have to choose between stealing and going hungry and turned out rather idealistic.

[hroþila]

Also, Ua Cíuil presumably got some of his fighting skills by training with his adoptive father as a kid, and the rest was all his army training. Which is a job. Largely for working class people too, if Zhou Bo is representative at all (and she probably is).

[brian 333]

No, no, no, no. You said that becoming a paladin necessitated wealth in order to receive the proper training.
O-Chul was born in abject poverty to a couple of highwaypeople and then adopted by a sergeant. He didn't unlist in the SG until he had a glorious beard on his chin. Hell, him being working-class when he got recruited is part of the point.

Miko was an orphan raised in some monastery until Shojo adopted her, at which point she already had a couple of Monk levels.

Lien was destined to become a fisherwoman like her parents. Strictly working-class too. And judging by Pier Pressure, her financial background wasn't even taken into consideration when deciding to recruit her.

Edit: None of them were wealthy before (or even after joining). It's pretty clear that the Sapphire Guard can afford to train its own members once they join and doesn't require prior fighting experience.

Edit the second: Also

Again, I know a paladin who did have to choose between stealing and going hungry and turned out rather idealistic.

Yes, exceptions exist. My point was not absolutist. As I pointed out in a previous thread, there are many ways to become a paladin.

But: O'Chul had time and wealth to train; he was being paid by the guard to do so. Miko also had the time and wealth to train. The Monastery and later Shojo did that. Neither of them is an exception to my point.

I still don't know Lien's backstory, so I don't know how she trained in martial arts, but at some point she did, and it probably required time and resources unavailable to humble fisherfolk. But even if she is an exception, that makes her an exception, and it does nothing to negate the point that children of wealthy parents can more easily grow up without compromising their childhood idealism for the sake of survival, and they have ready access to the expensive equipment and training, and the free time available, to become knights.

[Peelee]

Yes, exceptions exist. My point was not absolutist. As I pointed out in a previous thread, there are many ways to become a paladin.

But: O'Chul had time and wealth to train; he was being paid by the guard to do so. Miko also had the time and wealth to train. The Monastery and later Shojo did that. Neither of them is an exception to my point.

Neither of them had wealth of any sort. The"wealth to train"waa gifted to them, by the military and the monastery respectively. By the logic you have presented, anyone would have the "wealth to train" to be part of the Sapphire Guard by simply joining the Sapphire Guard.

[Fyraltari]

Yes, exceptions exist. My point was not absolutist. As I pointed out in a previous thread, there are many ways to become a paladin.

But: O'Chul had time and wealth to train; he was being paid by the guard to do so. Miko also had the time and wealth to train. The Monastery and later Shojo did that. Neither of them is an exception to my point.

I still don't know Lien's backstory, so I don't know how she trained in martial arts, but at some point she did, and it probably required time and resources unavailable to humble fisherfolk. But even if she is an exception, that makes her an exception, and it does nothing to negate the point that children of wealthy parents can more easily grow up without compromising their childhood idealism for the sake of survival, and they have ready access to the expensive equipment and training, and the free time available, to become knights.

We know the Sapphire Guard provides training to its recruits, Lien got slightly hurt there once (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1032.html).

When O-Chul met Miko, she was a paldain-in-training within the Guard, with the rank of acolyte. The fact that she had yet to gain access to Paladin class features was explicitly mentioned.

O-Chul's recruitment was in part to insure the Sapphire Guard would no longer operate with the bias of a team of noble-borns. So they started recruiting other commoners.

When discussing Lien recruitment this was said about her fighting skills "Does she know how to fight? -NOt, uh, formally. But I hear she's got a mean left hook. - Does she know right from wrong? Because that's the part we have trouble teaching.

There's multiple point of evidence showing the SG is perfectly content teaching its prospect how to fight, from scratch if need be and nothing to support your assertion that they demand prior training or some amount of wealth. If you're not a paladin already, they'll show you the ropes, regardless of whatever you were up to before. Lien's recruitment is not noted to be unusual in any way, at least after Shojo's reforms to the Guard.

[Keltest]

We know the Sapphire Guard provides training to its recruits, Lien got slightly hurt there once (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1032.html).

When O-Chul met Miko, she was a paldain-in-training within the Guard, with the rank of acolyte. The fact that she had yet to gain access to Paladin class features was explicitly mentioned.

O-Chul's recruitment was in part to insure the Sapphire Guard would no longer operate with the bias of a team of noble-borns. So they started recruiting other commoners.

When discussing Lien recruitment this was said about her fighting skills "Does she know how to fight? -NOt, uh, formally. But I hear she's got a mean left hook. - Does she know right from wrong? Because that's the part we have trouble teaching.

There's multiple point of evidence showing the SG is perfectly content teaching its prospect how to fight, from scratch if need be and nothing to support your assertion that they demand prior training or some amount of wealth. If you're not a paladin already, they'll show you the ropes, regardless of whatever you were up to before. Lien's recruitment is not noted to be unusual in any way, at least after Shojo's reforms to the Guard.

Given that we are talking about Soon's running of the Guard, which was at least two generations before the reforms in question, that doesnt really have any bearing on the topic. A lot can change in what was it, 80-90 years or more?

[hamishspence]

Soon stopped running the Sapphire Guard some 56 years ago (maybe 59 if you assume one of the "pre-Shojo's crowning" dates is 4 years out (since Shojo is 72 not 68).



The sequence of events is:

Let's say 76 years ago: Shojo I (age, say, 25) ascends to throne of Azure City. Soon (age 38) is his samurai.

68 years ago: Shojo I (age 33) becomes a father when Shojo II is born.

66 years ago: Soon (age 48) discovers rifts, etc.

64 years ago: Soon (age 50) founds Sapphire Guard.

56 years ago: Soon (age 58) gives control of Sapphire Guard to Shojo I (age 45), who has ruled Azure City for 20 years. Shojo II (age 12) looks on. Soon then dies.

47 years ago: Shojo I (age 59) dies. Shojo II (age 21) ascends throne of Azure City.

Today: Shojo II (age 68) rules Azure City.

Shojo's reformation of the Sapphire Guard to allow commoners in, was around 8 or 9 years or so ago (Hinjo was around 15 when the reformation took place, and he's 23 as of the start of War & XPs).

[brian 333]

We know the Sapphire Guard provides training to its recruits, Lien got slightly hurt there once (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1032.html).

When O-Chul met Miko, she was a paldain-in-training within the Guard, with the rank of acolyte. The fact that she had yet to gain access to Paladin class features was explicitly mentioned.

O-Chul's recruitment was in part to insure the Sapphire Guard would no longer operate with the bias of a team of noble-borns. So they started recruiting other commoners.

When discussing Lien recruitment this was said about her fighting skills "Does she know how to fight? -NOt, uh, formally. But I hear she's got a mean left hook. - Does she know right from wrong? Because that's the part we have trouble teaching.

There's multiple point of evidence showing the SG is perfectly content teaching its prospect how to fight, from scratch if need be and nothing to support your assertion that they demand prior training or some amount of wealth. If you're not a paladin already, they'll show you the ropes, regardless of whatever you were up to before. Lien's recruitment is not noted to be unusual in any way, at least after Shojo's reforms to the Guard.

Never said they demanded prior training. I said that the children of wealthy nobles have the most opportunity, and therefore would be most likely to be recruited.

Otherwise, your points don't really seem to refute mine. I understand that you like to engage the specifics to refute the general, but can you show that the Sapphire Guard is not predominantly made up of the children of wealthy elites? Isn't that one of the issues the reforms were intended to correct?



Neither of them had wealth of any sort. The"wealth to train"waa gifted to them, by the military and the monastery respectively. By the logic you have presented, anyone would have the "wealth to train" to be part of the Sapphire Guard by simply joining the Sapphire Guard.

Exactly correct. Except, the SG is a secret organization that very few even know about. They actively recruit. Do they predominantly recruit from the peasant class, or do they predominantly recruit from the nobility?

Or more exactly, do they recruit from the pool of people who have the skillet they want? When they were looking for warriors, they obviously would not have been recruiting from innocent young tavern servers? And when they were looking to reform, military training became less important and Lien's knowledge of right and wrong weighed more heavily in her favor. Was that true in the prior decade?

[Peelee]

Never said they demanded prior training. I said that the children of wealthy nobles have the most opportunity, and therefore would be most likely to be recruited.
But you define "opportunity" here as time and training, both of which can be granted by the Sapphire Guard. The peasants have the exact same time and training as the nobles if they get recruited, becuase those are both gifted by the organization.


Exactly correct. Except, the SG is a secret organization that very few even know about. They actively recruit. Do they predominantly recruit from the peasant class, or do they predominantly recruit from the nobility?

Or more exactly, do they recruit from the pool of people who have the skillet they want? When they were looking for warriors, they obviously would not have been recruiting from innocent young tavern servers? And when they were looking to reform, military training became less important and Lien's knowledge of right and wrong weighed more heavily in her favor. Was that true in the prior decade?
The skillet they wanted was "noble". If they wanted warriors, they would recruit from the military. It's a deep well to pull from, they explicitly have the time and resources you claim make one a viable candidate. And yet it doesn't matter and military members were not considered viable. Only nobility were.

The things you claim they looked for were not what they looked for.

[Dragonus45]

Okay, but the fact that the nobility of Azure City is very much not that is apparently well-known. So the kind of person who would assume that nobles are better suoted for the job would have to be classist.

How obvious, clear, or well known it is that Azure City's nobility are mostly a bunch of dirtbags is up for debate. So is the idea that they are all just as rotten as the villains we directly have dealt with from them really. Of course Soon should have known better, but I can think of several reasons he might have thought it was a good idea that don't come down to hating poor people.


To have the available time and resources required to train as a paladin requires a certain degree of wealth. The offspring of nobles have that. They also have the luxury of growing up an idealist because they never had to choose between stealing and going hungry, or any of the many compromises the poor must make to survive.

Galahad was not a better knight than Lancelot: he grew up in a nunnery where temptation and torment did not exist to force him to compromise his ideals.

I mislike the connotation that poor people or people who suffer hardship can't be idealistic or strive to be moral in spite of their hardship.

[Keltest]

I mislike the connotation that poor people or people who suffer hardship can't be idealistic or strive to be moral in spite of their hardship.

Its a D&D law that if you grow up on the streets you have to take rogue levels and have a chaotic alignment. /nods sagely.

[hamishspence]

How obvious, clear, or well known it is that Azure City's nobility are mostly a bunch of dirtbags is up for debate.

The tour guide in the back of the War & XPs book, mentions that the attempted assassination of nobles on the orders of other nobles, is common enough that visitors to the city are advised to be really careful when going to the theatre, near the 1st class seating, lest they be caught in the crossfire.

[MReav]

I wonder if the Sapphire Guard only recruiting from noble houses was something they came up with on their own. Soon has been dead for most of its existence, and Lord Shojo was very hands off until O-Chul joined (his dad may have been also), so a bunch of nobles got in charge, decided they knew better and limited recruitment while those that objected were overruled or even forced out.

[hamishspence]

Shojo's account of events:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

mentions that Soon "picked the noblest samurai" to be paladins. Samurai being a social caste.

[mashlagoo1982]

Or more exactly, do they recruit from the pool of people who have the skillet they want?





The skillet they wanted was "noble".

I could resist one but not both... I suspect the SG would prefer the bottom skillet.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2F17477223791 8&psig=AOvVaw2mhzDT6vxd8FjFs2nA0g6f&ust=1668017201556000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAwQjRxqFwoTCPjb4LiWn_sCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAG

[Peelee]

I noticed the typo right after posting and went to go fix it, but then thought, nah, let the potential for comedy flow.

[mashlagoo1982]

I noticed the typo right after posting and went to go fix it, but then thought, nah, let the potential for comedy flow.

I both appreciate and curse the typo. I cannot get the image of a caricature jewel encrusted skillet with a elitist attitude out of my head. Like some medieval brave little skillet cartoon.

[Tzardok]

That reminds me of the Knight Helm. The helm himself was knighted. You would insult Sir Helm by wearing him.

[Eric the White]

Er, I'm pretty sure the rift was in the sky above the castle. The Sapphire was in the throne, but I dont think the Rift was inside of it.

I think. Theres been a lot of confusion about that.

The castle had a tower (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html) that had the throne room in it.

[brian 333]

But you define "opportunity" here as time and training, both of which can be granted by the Sapphire Guard. The peasants have the exact same time and training as the nobles if they get recruited, becuase those are both gifted by the organization.


The skillet they wanted was "noble". If they wanted warriors, they would recruit from the military. It's a deep well to pull from, they explicitly have the time and resources you claim make one a viable candidate. And yet it doesn't matter and military members were not considered viable. Only nobility were.

The things you claim they looked for were not what they looked for.

I cannot refute this. I believe the case I made was valid, and that that being a noble affords the character the best opportunity to develop the skillset that would make a candidate for recruitment. I also believe there was a lot of selection bias toward nobles because of a belief in noble superiority.

(Also, my autocorrect just corrected my usage of skillset twice.) (And did not correct my misspelling of superioroty.)

So, I agree with above post.