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Jack Zander
2007-11-29, 06:44 PM
When wearing armor, does the max dex bonus apply to all dex based things (attacks and skills and reflex saves, etc.), or only to AC?

holywhippet
2007-11-29, 06:47 PM
Depends on the armour. Each item of armour has an armour check penalty (see here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm) but it only affects some skills, not all.

tyckspoon
2007-11-29, 06:52 PM
This number is the maximum Dexterity bonus to AC that this type of armor allows. Heavier armors limit mobility, reducing the wearer’s ability to dodge blows. This restriction doesn’t affect any other Dexterity-related abilities. (emphasis added)

Dex bonus only deals with AC. Armor Check Penalty applies to nearly everything, if a character is non-proficient.

brian c
2007-11-29, 06:53 PM
Max Dex is only with regards to dexterity bonus to AC. However, as holywhippet points out, most armors also have an Armor Check Penalty which affects most of the Dex-based skills (and Str-based ones)

AslanCross
2007-11-29, 06:58 PM
One of my players used to think that Max Dex bonus penalized one's reflex save. He's a paladin, so he penalized his already dismal Ref save down to the nether planes. He's lucky I never chucked a fireball at him before I corrected his sheet.

Jack Zander
2007-11-29, 06:59 PM
So you're telling me that my full-plate hinders my ability to dodge a sword, but against a fireball or lightning bolt (or a falling stone block trap) I'm still as nimble as I was without my armor on?

I call bull on Wizards.

daggaz
2007-11-29, 07:00 PM
Holywhippet is incorrect. Core armors do not differ at all as to where the max dex bonus applies. Rather, they differ only in how much dex bonus you can have.

Max dex bonus only applies to your AC. Nothing else.

The thing with the skills is Armor Check Penalty. It is entirely seperate from max dex bonus. For instance, Move Silently is a dex based skill. You will take a -6 hit to this skill if wearing heavy armor. A character with fourteen dex (+2 mod) wearing heavy armor only gets to use his dex for 1 ac point, rather than two, but both dex points count on his total move silently skill. You dont get a double penalty.

So if you have a whopping high dex, and wear heavy armor, you limit your AC bonus to only 1 point from the dex, but you still get to use your full dex for all related things like ranged attacks, dex based skills, initiative bonus, and reflex saves.

Yeah, it doesnt quite make sense, but it ends up balancing out mechanicly. Otherwise, heavy armor would be such a detriment it would pretty much force players into a single build for it, the proficient fighter/cleric with crappy dex. Wizards wants more playability than that.

Jack Zander
2007-11-29, 07:01 PM
Holywhippet is incorrect. Core armors do not differ at all as to where the max dex bonus applies. Rather, they differ only in how much dex bonus you can have.

Max dex bonus only applies to your AC. Nothing else.

The thing with the skills is Armor Check Penalty. It is entirely seperate from max dex bonus. For instance, Move Silently is a dex based skill. You will take a -6 hit to this skill if wearing heavy armor. A character with fourteen dex (+2 mod) wearing heavy armor only gets to use his dex for 1 ac point, rather than two, but both dex points count on his total move silently skill. You dont get a double penalty.

So if you have a whopping high dex, and wear heavy armor, you limit your AC bonus to only 1 point from the dex, but you still get to use your full dex for all related things like ranged attacks, dex based skills, initiative bonus, and reflex saves.

See, that just doesn't make sense to me.

EDIT: I seemed to have confused some people. What I should have said is does the max dex on armor affect your actual dex score, or simply the bonus you get to AC? It has been answered now though, thanks. I just don't think I agree with the logic.

daggaz
2007-11-29, 07:06 PM
See, that just doesn't make sense to me.

EDIT: I seemed to have confused some people. What I should have said is does the max dex on armor affect your actual dex score, or simply the bonus you get to AC? It has been answered now though, thanks. I just don't think I agree with the logic.

Yeah, the logic is screwy. I tried playing tho in a game that 'fixed' that problem. It sucked.

EDIT: and when i say heavy armor in all my previous posts, I mean Full Plate. The only heavy core armor worth wearing (stupid that each tier has a piece that is clearly superior than all the others in the same tier, rather than having equal tradeoffs). Im tired, its late. Sorry.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-11-29, 07:13 PM
So you're telling me that my full-plate hinders my ability to dodge a sword, but against a fireball or lightning bolt (or a falling stone block trap) I'm still as nimble as I was without my armor on?

I call bull on Wizards.
Explanations for saves tends to rely quite heavily on the "Luck Factor" as evident by the fact you still get to make Reflex saves when you're even entirely tied up. Though of course, your total save in that condition is at least reduced due to your effective Dex of 0. :smallannoyed:

Jack Zander
2007-11-29, 07:18 PM
We've been playing with a houserule for years where max dex means max dex score. It's always made sense. Even for archery, it's harder to make a steady aim when you've got 20 lbs of weight on your arms.

lbs?

...I know there are a lot of europeans who play DnD. Do you guys absolutely hate the fact that everything is in Imperial measurements, or are their metric converted books sold over there?

Never thought about that until now.

AslanCross
2007-11-29, 07:52 PM
I understand the whole logic problem, but I think there's good reason as to why armor doesn't penalize reflex saves.
Classes that use heavy armor have inherently low reflex saves. That's just not what they're good at. If you "fix" this "problem," your fighters are going to get fried a lot faster. Furthermore, that somehow penalizes reflex saves more than any other save type. What will penalize fort and will saves? It just seems rather unfair that for the sake of logic, reflex saves (which are probably the most commonly called for among the three save types) will be penalized more than the others.

Jack Zander
2007-11-30, 12:10 AM
Weird, Wizards doesn't seem to care about balance on any other rulings.

The_Blue_Sorceress
2007-11-30, 03:42 AM
So you're telling me that my full-plate hinders my ability to dodge a sword, but against a fireball or lightning bolt (or a falling stone block trap) I'm still as nimble as I was without my armor on?

I call bull on Wizards.

Think of it as the plate might protect you against a fireball. Instead of your tender, tender flesh getting flash-fried, the heat is being ablated by the armor and all the layers and padding between it and your body. Or perhaps the plate allows the electricity from the lightning bolt to go around you, as opposed to through you, and down to ground. It doesn't make much sense in terms of Reflex saves being thought of as dodging out of the way of something, but since most spells and effects that call for Reflex saves are elemental in nature, it seems sensible enough.

Oh? Cone of Cold? My armor protects me from that cold damage, so that instead of freezing my nipples off, I'm just a little chillier than I'd like. Stone block falling out of the ceiling? As opposed to crushing me into paste, my armor is acting like a shell, or an insect's carapace, and protecting my soft, squishy parts from serious injury (so maybe the block still hits you a little, but it doesn't do any damage.)

Reflex saves are also your ability to react, not just your mobility. If you react to that falling block or that evocation spell more quickly than your friend with a Dex of 10, then you're going to get out of the way faster and get hurt less often. Also note that the abilities that specifically have to do with moving out of the way of something, like evasion, mention that they're only usable in light or no armor.

As for armor increasing the difficulty of firing a bow, consider the typical fighter's Str score. Even the elite array fighter has a 15 Str, and how many people do you know that can lift 200 lbs over their head? Never mind the fact that, a lot of the time fighters get rolled up with a 16, 17 or 18 Str, or if the character is a half-orc, a 19 or a 20. 18 Str means that you can wear and carry around 100 lbs (your light load limit) of gear without thinking anything of it, and you can lift over your head 300 lbs (your maximum heavy load). A 20 str puts those numbers up to 133 lbs and 400 lbs respectively. Who have you ever met that can do anything like that? My guess is no one, and if there is someone you know who's that strong, they're an exception, not the rule, not only amongst our friends, but the populace at large. These are the guys who compete in sports that involve pulling cars around, flipping enormous tires, and moving huge logs end over end over end. 20 lbs on their arm is nothing, and it wouldn't affect their aim with a bow.

-Blue

Rigon
2007-11-30, 03:58 AM
reflex is your reaction time. no matter how heavy armor you wear you'll be able to react.
a character trained in the use of heavy armor will know exactly what he can and what he can't do when he needs to "react". like "making some hasted steps" or "falling over and roll" or simply "throwing himself/herself/itself to the ground".

EDIT: ow ... someone was quicker than me. well the point remains the same (curses on my english).

its_all_ogre
2007-11-30, 05:04 AM
i love the max press and load rules.
i had a halfing fighter in my game str 18 (reduced to 16 by race).
he weighed 35 pounds......
hilarious!
(as for imperial weights i am english and more used to pounds and stones for weight anyway!)

Corinthus
2007-11-30, 05:27 AM
...I know there are a lot of europeans who play DnD. Do you guys absolutely hate the fact that everything is in Imperial measurements, or are their metric converted books sold over there?

Never thought about that until now.

Yeah, its still all imperial, which totally sucks. It's bad enough that we brits can't seem to decide whether we want to use imperial or metric. (although frankly, i learnt in metric, it makes sense, and i just cant think in imperial)
Frankly, a conversion to metric would be the right way to go.

Tengu
2007-11-30, 07:32 AM
...I know there are a lot of europeans who play DnD. Do you guys absolutely hate the fact that everything is in Imperial measurements, or are their metric converted books sold over there?

Never thought about that until now.

Why would we? I never used the Imperial system apart from RPGs in my whole life, and I have no trouble converting metric values to Imperial ones. And I doubt if that's such a rare skill (though from my experience it seems that surprisingly few Imperial users can do the opposite easily :smallamused: ).

Mikeavelli
2007-11-30, 08:24 AM
and how many people do you know that can lift 200 lbs over their head?

I'm in the Military, Air Force to be specific, and know plenty of people who can manage that.

Hell, I can personally lift ~150 lbs over my head without hurting myself.

And this is just the Air Force, meatheads in the Army and Marines get a LOT bigger than the guys I know.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-11-30, 08:39 AM
and how many people do you know that can lift 200 lbs over their head?

I'm in the Military, Air Force to be specific, and know plenty of people who can manage that.
But that's extreme population bias, of course. You happen to have an occupation where the majority of folks are exceptions to the general population in certain regards.

And it actually helps prove the point, really. Warrior types have the extra Strength to overcome certain shortcomings in their armor.

Of course that's really only accurate insofar as you can apply Modern Real-Life Military to D&D Combat. Which is to say the above comment is at the very least a big but just barely manageable stretch.

its_all_ogre
2007-11-30, 10:30 AM
somebody doesn't know what 200lbs weighs in at...
cause olympic powerlifters lift around that much...they're gold standard athletes. so you'll excuse my scepticism about some random guys in the air force being able to do it.
that means they're able to lift 200 pounds off the floor and over their head dude. sure on an assistive gym machine i can lift quite a lot, 60 kilos when i was mad on the weights. but i could only lift 35 kilos as a standing exercise and i've never seen anyone at my gym lift more than that (i am larger than most to be honest. 6'4" and 210 pounds).
though i will ask around...

Telonius
2007-11-30, 10:54 AM
somebody doesn't know what 200lbs weighs in at...
cause olympic powerlifters lift around that much...they're gold standard athletes. so you'll excuse my scepticism about some random guys in the air force being able to do it.
that means they're able to lift 200 pounds off the floor and over their head dude. sure on an assistive gym machine i can lift quite a lot, 60 kilos when i was mad on the weights. but i could only lift 35 kilos as a standing exercise and i've never seen anyone at my gym lift more than that (i am larger than most to be honest. 6'4" and 210 pounds).
though i will ask around...

Results from the 2000 Olympics (http://espn.go.com/oly/summer00/results/weightlifting.html):



1. Hossein Rezazadeh (Iran) 212.5 (world record), 260.0; 472.5 (world record)
2. Ronny Weller (Germany) 210.0, 257.5; 467.5
3. Ashot Danielyan (Armenia) 207.5, 257.5; 465.0
4. Andrei Chemerkin (Russia) 202.5, 260.0; 462.5
5. Jaber S Salem (Qatar) 205.0, 255.0; 460.0
6. Kim Tae-Hyun (South Korea) 200.0, 260.0; 460.0
7. Viktors Scerbatihs (Latvia) 202.5, 250.0; 452.5
8. Pawel Najdek (Poland) 185.0, 240.0; 425.0
9. Tibor Stark (Hungary) 195.0, 230.0; 425.0
10. Gennadiy Krasilnikov (Ukraine) 190.0, 230.0; 420.0
11. Shane Hamman (U.S.) 195.0, 225.0; 420.0
12. Artem Udachyn (Ukraine) 195.0, 220.0; 415.0
13. Igor Halilov (Uzbekistan) 185.0, 225.0; 410.0
14. Jon Tecedor (Spain) 175.0, 220.0; 395.0
15. Petr Sobotka (Czech Republic) 175.0, 217.5; 392.5
16. Marius Alecu (Romania) 175.0, 215.0; 390.0
17. Valeriane Sarava (Georgia) 170.0, 215.0; 385.0
18. Nigel Avery (New Zealand) 172.5, 210.0; 382.5
19. Anthony Martin (Australia) 162.5, 207.5; 370.0
20. Chris Rae (Australia) 155.0, 205.0; 360.0
21. Alesana Sione (American Samoa) 160.0, 197.5; 357.5
22. Plaiter Reyes (Dominican Republic) 157.5, 195.0; 352.5

That's all in kg. So the first-place guy, who happened to set the World Record snatch, lifted about 467 lb and 573 lb. Guy #22 lifted 347 and 430 lb.

Going by the encumbrance table, guy #1 is sitting at a STR of about 22-23. Guy #22 is at 20-21. Which sounds about right for a world record holder and Olympic-caliber competition.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-11-30, 11:27 AM
Going by the encumbrance table, guy #1 is sitting at a STR of about 22-23. Guy #22 is at 20-21. Which sounds about right for a world record holder and Olympic-caliber competition.
Hm. 22 Strength for a human with no magic...

That's 18 base and 16th level with all discretionary points in Strength.

Or 17 base and 20th level...

How about 16 base, Prodigy (Strength) quality from DMG2 and 12th level?

Those are still pretty high-level weight lifters. Impossibly high under Alexandrian calibration.

...And I think I just exceeded the stretching capability of mapping D&D onto the real world. :smallfrown:

Telonius
2007-11-30, 12:06 PM
Well, the competitors are all clearly half-orcs, so that's a 20 STR right there. :smallwink:

Matthew
2007-11-30, 12:08 PM
I dunno, modern competition has driven things to extremes, not to mention the stain of performance enhancing drugs. That said, a D&D Mile is 6,000 Feet, who's to say a D&D lb is equal to a real world lb? :smallbiggrin:

D&D weight to strength ratios were based on Olympic record back in 1989, as I recall. There's a little blue box about in the 2e PHB or something. I'll check into it.

Telonius
2007-11-30, 12:10 PM
Maybe they have a level of Barbarian...?

Matthew
2007-11-30, 12:11 PM
Found it:


In 1987, the world record for lifting a weight overhead in a single move was 465 pounds. A heroic fighter with Strength 18/00 (see Table 1) can lift up to 480 pounds the same way and he can hold it overhead for a longer time!

Looks like they adjusted downwards for 3e.

Darkforge
2007-11-30, 12:23 PM
But that's extreme population bias, of course. You happen to have an occupation where the majority of folks are exceptions to the general population in certain regards.

An extreme population bias? you mean like the extreme population bias of PC's with PC classes compared to the majority of unnamed NPC's who have a lvl in commoner?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-11-30, 12:29 PM
Looks like they adjusted downwards for 3e.
Adjusted the scores or the weight values?

They just adjusted increased Strength scores a point upwards when they got rid of Exceptional Strength.

That is a 2e score of 18/01 translates to a 3e score of 19. A 2e score score of 18/51 translates to 20, and so on all the way up to 18/00 becoming 23.

And actually looking at the table, the weight allowance for 2e 18/00 is actually lower than 3e 23. Heck, that even applies at straight 18.

It's just equivalent values on the high end of the spectrum are actually stronger, but they're harder to achieve organically.

Good call about the drugs, though. Who needs magic when you have steroids? :smallwink:

Matthew
2007-11-30, 12:37 PM
Dunno, my brain was using some short hand or other. My intended meaning was that you could roll up a Level 1 Human Character in AD&D who had the equivalent weight lifting skills desired (however unlikely).

azule74
2007-11-30, 02:46 PM
How about 16 base, Prodigy (Strength) quality from DMG2 and 12th level?:

Okay I cannot find this, where is it?

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-11-30, 03:05 PM
Pages 157-160, "Unique Abilities." A bunch of wierd qualities you can use to make NPCs interesting.

Prodigy results in an ability score getting a +2 bonus as well as granting further bonus to checks based on the score.

...Yeah, it used to be called "DM fiat." :smalltongue:

azule74
2007-11-30, 03:09 PM
I was hopeing that it was for PC's. Oh well. It is good to know for when I run my game.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-11-30, 03:56 PM
I was hopeing that it was for PC's. Oh well. It is good to know for when I run my game.
Though the rule text strongly discourages giving these abilities to PCs, they do provide estimated-on-the-safe-side LAs for the abilities.

Jack Zander
2007-12-01, 01:23 AM
I dunno, modern competition has driven things to extremes, not to mention the stain of performance enhancing drugs. That said, a D&D Mile is 6,000 Feet, who's to say a D&D lb is equal to a real world lb? stainless steel strip (http://www.cn-SteelPipe.net) smoke detector (http://www.heiman.com.cn/alarm.asp)

D&D weight to strength ratios were based on Olympic record back in 1989, as I recall. There's a little blue box about in the 2e PHB or something. I'll check into it motion detector (http://www.heiman.com.cn/alarm.asp) stainless steel wire (http://www.cn-SteelPipe.net)

Bot?

Or does someone really really love plagiarism and stainless steel?

Matthew
2007-12-01, 08:33 AM
Must be a bot of some sort.