A question regarding Tarquin and the Empire of Blood

[WalterTheMighty]

Has the Giant confirmed or denied whether we'll see them again? Maybe in like, a book of their own after the whole Gate thing? Roy's made a promise to Elan that they'll deal with it, but I feel like this couldn't be resolved with just a throwaway panel. There'd be far too much to deal with for it to just be an epilogue to our current book, too.

[Grey Watcher]

Has the Giant confirmed or denied whether we'll see them again? Maybe in like, a book of their own after the whole Gate thing? Roy's made a promise to Elan that they'll deal with it, but I feel like this couldn't be resolved with just a throwaway panel. There'd be far too much to deal with for it to just be an epilogue to our current book, too.

I don't know of any specific plans regarding the Empire or Tarquin, but given that, when Elan was drafting the plan he gave to Ian Starshine, one of his stated goals was to deny Tarquin the climactic finish he was so eager for, resolving it in a throwaway panel is probably exactly what he's aiming for.

If we do get more Vector Legion material, my money's on a prequel. Though even that runs the risk of being a retread of Start of Darkness.

[Tzardok]

Well, even if it was a retread, we would at least finally have a name for Shoulder Pad Guy.

[ZhonLord]

My expectation would be a temporary return to Girard's Rift in order to seal it up after the Dark One's finally convinced to ally with existing pantheons. They arrive, see the carnage the Snarl has caused, have some interactions with the Tarquin Squad, then seal up the rift and move on to the next one.

[Peelee]

Well, even if it was a retread, we would at least finally have a name for Shoulder Pad Guy.

It's Jim.

[Jasdoif]

It's Jim.Wait, isn't he dead? Or am I mixing him up with Tom?


More seriously....All I can think of is that the number of prequel stories is "pretty much fixed", and it's not clear what may happen after OotS itself is finished (https://www.patreon.com/posts/answer-post-2020-34406298); I suppose a Vector Legion story isn't out of the question, though I have doubts about them featuring Tarquin or the Empire of Blood specifically. (Perhaps a story involving Tom Jim SPG and/or Jacinda escaping the fate of the Vector Legion members who the Order actively encountered?)

[Mike Havran]

My money is on the "prequel" book focusing on Linear Guild: Nale's upbringing, creation of the Guild, then denouement of the current situation with Tarquin vs. Amun Zora and her team. Reasons:

1. The Giant wrote in one of the book comments that he has up to three prequels in mind, after OotPC and around SoD, when the Guild were pretty much the only developed characters besides the Order and Team Evil (and Miko).

2. There are quite a few hints to Nale's past dropped in the main comic so there certainly is at least a rough draft of a story behind it and it would be odd for it to never see the light of day.

3. Elan's plan seemed "sound but difficult to set up" to Ian so I doubt it will be only revealed in a casual flashback panel. And inserting in the main story now would be kinda disruptive to its development.

[Peelee]

Wait, isn't he dead? Or am I mixing him up with Tom?
That's Major Jim, he died.

2. There are quite a few hints to Nale's past dropped in the main comic so there certainly is at least a rough draft of a story behind it
I would not use the word "certainly" there.

and it would be odd for it to never see the light of day.
Even assuming the first part is true, why?

[Mike Havran]

Even assuming the first part is true, why?Well, if the Giant has been making money for years from OotS stories and he has another OotS story to tell, it would be odd if he didn't tell it.

[Ruck]

If we do get more Vector Legion material, my money's on a prequel. Though even that runs the risk of being a retread of Start of Darkness.

I don't think it would feel that way because I don't think it would carry the element of tragedy that Redcloak's story does-- not just how he got started on this path, but how he made even more desperate and extreme decisions in order to preserve The Plan over anything else. I don't think anyone in Vector Legion carries that kind of backstory. Could actually be a pretty fun adventuring romp.

[Fyraltari]

With regards to the downfall of Tarquin and Elan's plan: I still think the Vector Legion will be the IFCC's new patsies and will feature in their plan.

With regards to a prequel story, I think there's material enough for a joint Nale, Tarquin and Ian story revolving around the foundation of the Linear Guild and Starshine's early efforts to foil the Vector Legion's schemes.

[Kish]

As I've said previously, I don't think "this is a villain who I defeated before and I'm substantially more powerful now" would really work for a sequel as a followup to Xykon.

"Will there be a prequel?" and "will there be resolution of Tarquin?" are two different (looking in antipodal directions) questions. If the Vector Legion is brought up again, it seems very likely they will be disposed of in a single strip--whether that strip appears in the online comic, or a Linear Guild prequel which sets up the situation in the online comic and then, as an epilogue to that book, skips past the online comic to a strip showing the end of the Vector Legion.

I think the resolution could certainly be dealt with in a single panel. All we'd really need to see is Tarquin with X's in his eyes collapsing before Amun-Zora; the fate of the rest of the Vector Legion could be inferred (or depicted with similar finality in the same panel, if you really want). There's no moral ambiguity about the situation and Elan dealt with his angst about his father being slime in Blood Runs in the Family.

[137beth]

IMO, there are at least two good ways to defeat Tarquin at his own game:

1)He could die in a throwaway gag, denying him a dramatic climax.
2)He could be killed by another villain, rendering him an insignificant character who only exists to show how powerful another villain is.

If (2) happens, I think Sabine is the most likely contender. It's been foreshadowed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html). Also, Sabine isn't anywhere close to being the main villain of the comic: she's a minion for another side of secondary villains. Hence, if she kills Tarquin, he'll feel a lot less significant than if a "main" villain kills him.

[Fyraltari]

If (2) happens, I think Sabine is the most likely contender. It's been foreshadowed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html). Also, Sabine isn't anywhere close to being the main villain of the comic: she's a minion for another side of secondary villains. Hence, if she kills Tarquin, he'll feel a lot less significant than if a "main" villain kills him.

It's also been foreshadowed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), that she would betray the IFCC for Nale and likely be killed as a result. Murdering Tarquin who would have become the Directors' newest mortal pawn seems like the obvious way to resolve both of those.

[theangelJean]

It's also been foreshadowed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), that she would betray the IFCC for Nale and likely be killed as a result. Murdering Tarquin who would have become the Directors' newest mortal pawn seems like the obvious way to resolve both of those.

That would fit with Sabine's story, but it makes Elan's plan moot: it's likely he doesn't know about any of that. Unless his plan is "find one of Tarquin's many other enemies and get them to take care of it". I'm actually thinking his plan was to get Tarquin's enemies to work together, but I hadn't factored in Sabine.

[MetroAlien]

I don't think we got any details about Elan's plan besides "this... could actually work!"

Knowing Elan, his plan could be so crude/vague that anything Sabine does has absolutely no influence (good or bad) on the flow of saids plan. Both things could just happen in parallel.

[Fyraltari]

That would fit with Sabine's story, but it makes Elan's plan moot: it's likely he doesn't know about any of that. Unless his plan is "find one of Tarquin's many other enemies and get them to take care of it". I'm actually thinking his plan was to get Tarquin's enemies to work together, but I hadn't factored in Sabine.
Not necessarily, Sabine could kill him after Elan's plan has succeeded. I always assumed the plan's aim was to topple the Triple Empire, not kill Tarquin specifically.

I don't think we got any details about Elan's plan besides "this... could actually work!"

Well, Ian does say that carrying it lut would require some training and special equipment, but knowing Elan that probably means it includes disguising onself as jugglers at one point or something equally silly.

[brian 333]

Two Empire soldiers walking in a crowd away from a gibbet.

Soldier 1: So, they finally axed the old man. Never thought I'd see the day.
Soldier 2: Did you hear that speech he gave while they were putting him on the block?
Soldier 1: No, the crowd was cheering so loud I couldn't hear a thing.

[Ionathus]

I don't need any more stories about Tarquin. He's an unrepentant murderous rapist fixated on the fame his atrocities bring him. It's the same reason we don't need any more awful sensationalized documentaries/biographies about real-life serial killers. "Ooh, but I can't believe how meticulous his murders were," "ooh, it's just so awful what he did but he's so calm and collected, how does he do that," "gosh, the way he tells it you know you shouldn't but you almost start to root for him...". It's exactly what people like Tarquin want here, in the real world, and I hate how often they get it.


If (2) happens, I think Sabine is the most likely contender. It's been foreshadowed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0914.html). Also, Sabine isn't anywhere close to being the main villain of the comic: she's a minion for another side of secondary villains. Hence, if she kills Tarquin, he'll feel a lot less significant than if a "main" villain kills him.

Oooh, you think she could Kefka/Head Alien it? I never really considered Sabine as anything more than a minion - she doesn't seem to have the drive to take the reins for herself - but I'm still very interested in seeing how her arc wraps up in this book.


It's also been foreshadowed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), that she would betray the IFCC for Nale and likely be killed as a result. Murdering Tarquin who would have become the Directors' newest mortal pawn seems like the obvious way to resolve both of those.

Hmm I forgot that. Entirely possible that things have already "not ended well for her" given that Nale is now permadead...but her own death is still on the table, and now I'm considering it, so thanks for this heads up!

[KorvinStarmast]

2)He could be killed by another villain, rendering him an insignificant character who only exists to show how powerful another villain is. If (2) happens, I think Sabine is the most likely contender. I like this idea.

Two Empire soldiers walking in a crowd away from a gibbet.

Soldier 1: So, they finally axed the old man. Never thought I'd see the day.
Soldier 2: Did you hear that speech he gave while they were putting him on the block?
Soldier 1: No, the crowd was cheering so loud I couldn't hear a thing. Also like this one. What if Sabine is in disguise as the hangman? :smallsmile:

@Ionathus: it's a cartoon.

[Ionathus]

@Ionathus: it's a cartoon.

*pushes glasses up bridge of nose* a comic, actually

[Metastachydium]

It's also been foreshadowed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0804.html), that she would betray the IFCC for Nale and likely be killed as a result.

Well, we know that to be Qarr's expert opinion, but I don't see why he would be right. Sabine retorts that Qarr doesn't know her exact orders, and she's right. We don't know her exact orders, in fact (nor how exactly she ended up working for a devil of all things); one of the few things that we are aware of is that she was originally assigned to Nale in an advisory capacity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) and thereby, so far as we are able to tell, she really isn't supposed to just order Nale around.


Tarquin who would have become the Directors' newest mortal pawn

Um, Sabine was specifically sent to fetch the vessel for the Directors who have seen her throw a tantrum after Nale's death. That would be incredibly stupid of them if you are correct about how Sabine would treat such an order.


if she kills Tarquin

Sabine could kill him

Given their respective power levels and the amount of resources each commands, assuming that the only thing keeping Sabine from just offing him is her commitment to the IFCC is a pretty bold conjecture.


Two Empire soldiers walking in a crowd away from a gibbet.

Soldier 1: So, they finally axed the old man. Never thought I'd see the day.
Soldier 2: Did you hear that speech he gave while they were putting him on the block?
Soldier 1: No, the crowd was cheering so loud I couldn't hear a thing.

I don't think they'd care that much. Big time (and "big time") public figures kicking it is business as usual on most of that continent.


I don't need any more stories about Tarquin. He's an unrepentant murderous rapist fixated on the fame his atrocities bring him. It's the same reason we don't need any more awful sensationalized documentaries/biographies about real-life serial killers. "Ooh, but I can't believe how meticulous his murders were," "ooh, it's just so awful what he did but he's so calm and collected, how does he do that," "gosh, the way he tells it you know you shouldn't but you almost start to root for him...". It's exactly what people like Tarquin want here, in the real world, and I hate how often they get it.

Those are more than valid points, especially concerning real-life examples of the phenomenon you decry. I just don't see how any sequel, prequel or side story with Tarquin as one of the main characters would or could work, especially considering the author's stated opinion on this character of his and his refusal to give Belkar an actual backstory.

There's a but, however. What's the difference between Tarquin and, say, Xykon? The Bony Bastard is a lot more powerful, even pettier, all things considered, and he absolutely revels in needless and pointless destruction, a "regimen" he would keep on the table forever. He murdered and zombified his whole family for the crime of trying to help him and it never got better from there. And yet, he got half, or, let's say a third of a prequel all to himself. And it worked.


*pushes glasses up bridge of nose* a comic, actually

(These are those moments when I'm almost growing envious of other people's eye problems.)

[Fyraltari]

Well, we know that to be Qarr's expert opinion, but I don't see why he would be right. Sabine retorts that Qarr doesn't know her exact orders, and she's right. We don't know her exact orders, in fact (nor how exactly she ended up working for a devil of all things); one of the few things that we are aware of is that she was originally assigned to Nale in an advisory capacity (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) and thereby, so far as we are able to tell, she really isn't supposed to just order Nale around.
Sure, but she's not supposed to blindly obey him, she's suppose to trick him into fullfilling her bosses's wishes. And it's not just Quarr's opinion. A strip called "Where her loyalties lie" where one character tells her being loyal to Nale over the Directors would end up badly for her that ends with her telling Nale she's with him "all thr way" while she walks out of the frame. Short of flaming 200-foor-high letters, this is the clearest way there is to telegraph that she will indeed chose Nale over her masters and pay the price for it.




Um, Sabine was specifically sent to fetch the vessel for the Directors who have seen her throw a tantrum after Nale's death. That would be incredibly stupid of them if you are correct about how Sabine would treat such an order.
They're embodiment of pure evil. There's a recurring motif in this comic about evil characters being unable to truly grasp the motivations of more selfless characters and to notice change in others. The idea that a succubus with a long history of evil service would willfully incure their wrath out of love for a [/i]dead mortal[/i] would very plausibly escape them.





Given their respective power levels and the amount of resources each commands, assuming that the only thing keeping Sabine from just offing him is her commitment to the IFCC is a pretty bold conjecture.
It's a good thing no one's made it then. I'm not saying Sabine would just fly up to Tarquin had start draining levels. Murder's not about brute force. Murder is about planning and waiting for the opportune moment.

Malack was much to terrible a for for Nale to take on on paper. And yet...

[Peelee]

They're embodiment of pure evil. There's a recurring motif in this comic about evil characters being unable to truly grasp the motivations of more selfless characters and to notice change in others. The idea that a succubus with a long history of evil service would willfully incure their wrath out of love for a [/i]dead mortal[/i] would very plausibly escape them.

Ignoring the assertion that three embodiments of pure evil would, for some reason, be unable to understand another embodiment of pure evil...


Last time, I talked about how adding detail to your description can enhance the believability of your game world. Now I'll focus on a very specific type of detail: emotional responses.

If you've played a lot of D&D, you know that most of the time, the solution to a problem is based in logic. Whether it is the best way to fight a monster or the answer to a riddle, the answers will often fit into a fairly understandable pattern. Even the process of creating and advancing a character is a sort of logic problem: How can I make these rules reflect what I want to play? This deeply-rooted foundation of logic is a good thing, but it can lead to one unfortunate tendency: the assumption that the people players meet within the game world operate on a similarly logical level. But in the real world, people often act illogically, driven more by their emotions than any understanding of "how the game works." The goal of this article is to show how you can introduce seemingly pointless emotional responses in your NPC that can nonetheless be predicted and incorporated into the play experience as a form of texture.

Consider the following example: In an old campaign, I had introduced two completely evil villains. Both had plans to conquer the world, and I had let the PCs know that they had known each other a century earlier. When the players discovered that they were working together, they couldn't understand it. "Why help each other?" they asked themselves, "It would make more sense to go it alone."

"Wait," said one player, "I bet that one is planning on helping the other up to a point, and then turning on him." They all agreed that this must be the reason for their alliance, and even formulated a plan to "warn" the lesser of the two evils about the other's presumed treachery. This was a solution that was arrived at by a fairly logical process, but it was completely and utterly incorrect. What the players had failed to consider was that the two villains were simply friends. They had grown up together, and trusted each other implicitly despite having every logical reason to not trust one another at all. The fact was that the villains were letting their emotional attachment to each other override strict logic; they had made an agreement to share control of the world, and both were intending to follow through. Further, by contacting the "lesser" villain, the PCs had accidentally tipped their hand that they knew the two were working together, allowing the villains to set up an ambush for the players in a future session. By relying on logic and logic alone, the players had gravely miscalculated their foes.

The same guy who wrote that is writing the comic. I do not think "one is unable to understand someone else because the first person is evil" is a thing. They may misunderstand because their character is a narcissistic psychopath, for example. But simply "because they're evil"? No. If that were the case, the entire idea of the IFCC would have failed from the get-go. No deal with V, so schemes coming to pass, it would have all fallen apart from its very inception.

[Fyraltari]

The same guy who wrote that is writing the comic. I do not think "one is unable to understand someone else because the first person is evil" is a thing.
Nobody said it was.

They may misunderstand because their character is a narcissistic psychopath, for example. But simply "because they're evil"? No. If that were the case, the entire idea of the IFCC would have failed from the get-go.
Rational self-interest, they understand. The point of the IFCC is to ally the fiendish races against the greater foe. I have no doubt that the Directors intend for them to then go back to merrily slaughter each other for control of the cosmos once there are no longer any forces of good to deal with in a few million years.

No deal with V
Why not? The deal with V was based on appealing to Vaarsuvius's worse traits, arrogance and selfish thirst for (arcane) power.

[Peelee]

Nobody said it was.

You did. In that post I quoted. You think the IFCC can't understand Sabine.

[Fyraltari]

You did. In that post I quoted. You think the IFCC can't understand Sabine.

No, I said it wouldn't be absurd for them to not notice her genuinely falling in love rather than staying "an embodiment of illicit sex". That's a much weaker claim than what you're making out to be.
Edit: falling out of love to the point of defying them without any actual gain, too.

[Peelee]

No, I said it wouldn't be absurd for them to not notice her genuinely falling in love rather than staying "an embodiment of illicit sex". That's a much weaker claim than what you're making out to be.
Edit: falling out of love to the point of defying them without any actual gain, too.

You said, and I quote, "They're embodiment of pure evil. There's a recurring motif in this comic about evil characters being unable to truly grasp the motivations of more selfless characters"

They are embodiments of evil. Sabine is also an embodiment of evil. By the transitive property, you have thus said embodiments of evil ca. It grasp the motivations of an embodiment of evil.

If you meant to say something else, that's fine. You can certainly retract what you said and rephrase. I've done it plenty myself. But you can't deny you said it.

[Fyraltari]

You said, and I quote, "They're embodiment of pure evil. There's a recurring motif in this comic about evil characters being unable to truly grasp the motivations of more selfless characters"

They are embodiments of evil. Sabine is also an embodiment of evil. By the transitive property, you have thus said embodiments of evil ca. It grasp the motivations of an embodiment of evil.

If you meant to say something else, that's fine. You can certainly retract what you said and rephrase. I've done it plenty myself. But you can't deny you said it.

But Sabine is more selfless than they are. She's truly fallen in love with someone. She may have been an embodiment of pure evil, but she isn't anymore.
Do notice that I went on to say how evil characters also fail to recognize change and growth in this comic.

[Mike Havran]

I just don't see how any sequel, prequel or side story with Tarquin as one of the main characters would or could work, especially considering the author's stated opinion on this character of his and his refusal to give Belkar an actual backstory.

There's a but, however. What's the difference between Tarquin and, say, Xykon? The Bony Bastard is a lot more powerful, even pettier, all things considered, and he absolutely revels in needless and pointless destruction, a "regimen" he would keep on the table forever. He murdered and zombified his whole family for the crime of trying to help him and it never got better from there. And yet, he got half, or, let's say a third of a prequel all to himself. And it worked. Therefore I think the prequel will focus on Nale and his life (and aftermath of his demise), with Tarquin being an antagonist.

[Ionathus]

Those are more than valid points, especially concerning real-life examples of the phenomenon you decry. I just don't see how any sequel, prequel or side story with Tarquin as one of the main characters would or could work, especially considering the author's stated opinion on this character of his and his refusal to give Belkar an actual backstory.

There's a but, however. What's the difference between Tarquin and, say, Xykon? The Bony Bastard is a lot more powerful, even pettier, all things considered, and he absolutely revels in needless and pointless destruction, a "regimen" he would keep on the table forever. He murdered and zombified his whole family for the crime of trying to help him and it never got better from there. And yet, he got half, or, let's say a third of a prequel all to himself. And it worked.

I'd argue there are two main differences between Tarquin and Xykon that make a prequel book for one make more sense than the other:

1. Tarquin is already defeated. Much like a serial killer in jail, he has already done his damage. He isn't a direct threat to the heroes anymore; in fact, his actual downfall is considered a foregone conclusion by (I assume) most of the audience. So whereas Xykon continues to be an active threat (the active threat, depending who you ask), Tarquin isn't considered relevant anymore. Therefore, bringing him back into the spotlight with a prequel story, especially one that humanizes him any further, wouldn't serve the drama of "will they defeat him??" - it would just give him more opportunities to be cool or sympathetic or clever. This feeds into the other difference...

2. It's literally what Tarquin wants. There's a specific kind of sensationalized true crime storytelling that takes this exact prequel angle. The real-world serial killer has already committed their famous murders, and the entire story is about how they got there. How they became the person who could commit such horrors. In the worst cases, it turns being a murderer into near-celebrity status. There's a play called "Down the Road" by Lee Blessing that explores this exact dynamic. I highly recommend it to any true crime fans.

Writing a villain prequel book (or a serial killer's biography), it's nearly impossible to not glorify the subject one way or another, either demonizing or humanizing them; interestingly, Start of Darkness did both with its two villains. It demonized Xykon by showing that he was always a horrible bastard, and it humanized (goblinized?) Redcloak by showing the hardships he faced and the sins he committed as a result.* The reason Xykon and Redcloak are allowed a prequel book, IMO, is that neither Xykon nor Redcloak really care about fame. Xykon doesn't seem to mind it, but he's spelled out his raison d'être clearly in 1266: he wants power, because he doesn't want anyone telling him what to do ever again. That desire turns him into an unrelenting force in the story (and an explicitly supernatural one at that), rather than just some man who is cool and smart and deserving of the attention he craves, because he kills innocent people in an interesting way. Xykon isn't scary because his mind is twisted and fractured in a relatable way, like so many true crime stories like to portray: Xykon is scary because he's a powerful magic jerkwad corpse that's going to get us all killed if we don't stop him.

But Tarquin does care about fame, more than he seems to care about almost anything else. He is obsessed with his legacy, so obsessed that he murders his own son and tries to cripple the other's fight to save the world, because they don't say the right words on his cue. The whole thing is about his ego, about what people think of him, and so giving him a prequel story undermines his ending - being left behind as an irrelevant subplot.

* Your mileage may vary, of course. Redcloak in particular committed a few acts in SoD that made him less sympathetic to portions of the audience.


(These are those moments when I'm almost growing envious of other people's eye problems.)

Blue-light blocking glasses can come in a wide array of frames! Join us at the cool, dignified kids' table!

[Metastachydium]

Sure, but she's not supposed to blindly obey him, she's suppose to trick him into fullfilling her bosses's wishes.

For most of what we see of her career, she markedly wasn't doing that, though.


And it's not just Quarr's opinion. A strip called "Where her loyalties lie" where one character tells her being loyal to Nale over the Directors would end up badly for her that ends with her telling Nale she's with him "all thr way" while she walks out of the frame. Short of flaming 200-foor-high letters, this is the clearest way there is to telegraph that she will indeed chose Nale over her masters and pay the price for it.

I'll continue to disagree, especially regarding the "pay the price bit" for which you don't even have the title.


They're embodiment of pure evil. There's a recurring motif in this comic about evil characters being unable to truly grasp the motivations of more selfless characters and to notice change in others. The idea that a succubus with a long history of evil service would willfully incure their wrath out of love for a dead mortal would very plausibly escape them.

Hard disagree. Lee canonically can understand even Good people (or people more righteous than TN, anyhow) and Cedrik is said to use instinct as much as intellect if not more (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html). They work on more than some mouldy Evil concepti of human nature or whatever. Also, breaking the Hell-Damned TV like that was a pretty tall set of flaming letters.


It's a good thing no one's made it then. I'm not saying Sabine would just fly up to Tarquin had start draining levels. Murder's not about brute force. Murder is about planning and waiting for the opportune moment.

Malack was much to terrible a for for Nale to take on on paper. And yet...

Nale was training to do that and anticipating it for quite the long while and he had help (including a high level wizard), luck and some advantages specific to him (namely his relationship with Sabine and hence his protections from negative energy) and doing what he did was still an incredibly stupid thing to do. Sabine doesn't have that time, or allies of her own and her usual tricks don't really work on Tarquin. I'm not saying you people are arguing that she could just pop there and one-shot him, but I do hold that you appear to seriously overstate her chances of success.


Therefore I think the prequel will focus on Nale and his life (and aftermath of his demise), with Tarquin being an antagonist.

I'm not sure Nale could carry a story himself, to be honest. The most I could see would be the story of T.'s marriage with Elan's mother told from her perspective or something like that, and that would still be quite dark while serving little purpose.

[Fyraltari]

For most of what we see of her career, she markedly wasn't doing that, though.
And?




I'll continue to disagree, especially regarding the "pay the price bit" for which you don't even have the title.
Sure.




Hard disagree. Lee canonically can understand even Good people (or people more righteous than TN, anyhow) and Cedrik is said to use instinct as much as intellect if not more (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0903.html).They work on more than some mouldy Evil concepti of human nature or whatever.
They do understand people. But only the bad bits of people. They got V by appeal to V's pride ("run and tell Master to come clean your mess") and thirst for power, the strip's title and the Oracle both point out that the Elf took the deal for the wrong reasons. And later, their reasoning for foreseeing V would attack Xykon did not hinge on V wanting to save the world or anything like that but on V wanting to challenge the baddest dude around.
It's like how in The Lord of the Rings Sauron can manipulate Saruman, Denethor or Ar-Pharzôn and predict how they going to act, but is at a loss when it comes to Gandalf, Frodo or Aragorn because the former act on their evil impulses and thought-process while the latter don't and he can only relate to that anymore.


Also, breaking the Hell-Damned TV like that was a pretty tall set of flaming letters.
I'd say there's a qualitative difference between throwing a tantrum and sabotaging the mission.


Nale was training to do that and anticipating it for quite the long while and he had help (including a high level wizard), luck and some advantages specific to him (namely his relationship with Sabine and hence his protections from negative energy)
Yes, preparation and waiting for the opportune moment. Once Elan's plan has come to fruition, who's to say in what state Tarquin will be?

I'm not saying you people are arguing that she could just pop there and one-shot him, but I do hold that you appear to seriously overstate her chances of success.
Roy's chances of success against Xykon are pretty slim too, yet the first time they met he exploded the lich. Circumstances account for a lot in a fight.

[Ruck]

Those are more than valid points, especially concerning real-life examples of the phenomenon you decry. I just don't see how any sequel, prequel or side story with Tarquin as one of the main characters would or could work, especially considering the author's stated opinion on this character of his and his refusal to give Belkar an actual backstory.

Leaving aside my thoughts on the moralistic approach to fiction criticism-- Tarquin has been around long enough that a prequel story for him doesn't have to be a backstory or explain him at all. It could just simply be an early adventure of the Vector Legion, or something along those lines.

[Peelee]

But Sabine is more selfless than they are.

Then maybe blanket statements about embodiments of evil don't really hold up, and your argument falls on its face.

Nobody in the comic can't understand change or growth because they are evil. If they can't understand things, it's because of actual character flaws. Hell, V couldn't understand that familicide was bad until they had it shoved in their face and they're neutral. Roy couldn't understand the vampire wasn't Durkon and he's Good. It's not alignment that causes misunderstandings, it's the characters own personality traits.

And frankly, nothing implies the IFCC can't or don't understand the things you claim they don't.

[Metastachydium]

his actual downfall is considered a foregone conclusion by (I assume) most of the audience. So whereas Xykon continues to be an active threat (the active threat, depending who you ask), Tarquin isn't considered relevant anymore.

Well, technically so is Xykon's and as the annexed figure (the annexed figure being, of course, Fyraltari) shows, there are people who think T.'s still to play a major role in some way.


Therefore, bringing him back into the spotlight with a prequel story, especially one that humanizes him any further, wouldn't serve the drama of "will they defeat him??" - it would just give him more opportunities to be cool or sympathetic or clever. This feeds into the other difference...

I mean, I can't quite see what the Giant could possibly do to humanize him. Nor does he need to do that: he certainly didn't humanize Xykon in the slightest in SoD and while X. got to do stuff that is arguably cool and clever (as in showing him to be strong, resourceful and smarter than he looks), I'm pretty sure few if any people liked the Bony Bastard more for that.


2. It's literally what Tarquin wants. There's a specific kind of sensationalized true crime storytelling that takes this exact prequel angle. The real-world serial killer has already committed their famous murders, and the entire story is about how they got there. How they became the person who could commit such horrors. In the worst cases, it turns being a murderer into near-celebrity status. There's a play called "Down the Road" by Lee Blessing that explores this exact dynamic. I highly recommend it to any true crime fans.

Writing a villain prequel book (or a serial killer's biography), it's nearly impossible to not glorify the subject one way or another, either demonizing or humanizing them; interestingly, Start of Darkness did both with its two villains. It demonized Xykon by showing that he was always a horrible bastard, and it humanized (goblinized?) Redcloak by showing the hardships he faced and the sins he committed as a result.* The reason Xykon and Redcloak are allowed a prequel book, IMO, is that neither Xykon nor Redcloak really care about fame.

I'd argue that Redcloak as-is doesn't mind being the (in)famous Supreme Leader in war and peace that even the gods fear. Otherwise yes, I agree. Tarquin got exactly what he deserved. Voiding that would take away from the story.


Xykon isn't scary because his mind is twisted and fractured in a relatable way,

Unless you count his initially furious, and later almost melancholy reflection upon having lost the many signs and symptoms of being alive, his daunting boredom born out too much time he cannot spend but cannot run away from either and the like… The difference is more like this: Tarquin only cares about fame and the spotlight. That's where he begins, that's where he ends.


Blue-light blocking glasses can come in a wide array of frames! Join us at the cool, dignified kids' table!

I don't know. How would I even look like without blue light?


Leaving aside my thoughts on the moralistic approach to fiction criticism-- Tarquin has been around long enough that a prequel story for him doesn't have to be a backstory or explain him at all. It could just simply be an early adventure of the Vector Legion, or something along those lines.

And what would be the point of that? SoD served a purpose. Watching the Legion succeed at some task that has no bearing on the plot… Would not.


They do understand people. But only the bad bits of people. They got V by appeal to V's pride ("run and tell Master to come clean your mess") and thirst for power, the strip's title and the Oracle both point out that the Elf took the deal for the wrong reasons. And later, their reasoning for foreseeing V would attack Xykon did not hinge on V wanting to save the world or anything like that but on V wanting to challenge the baddest dude around.
It's like how in The Lord of the Rings Sauron can manipulate Saruman, Denethor or Ar-Pharzôn and predict how they going to act, but is at a loss when it comes to Gandalf, Frodo or Aragorn because the former act on their evil impulses and thought-process while the latter don't and he can only relate to that anymore.

The thing is, we don't know that. We know how they played V. We don't know how they played people more righteous than V. They know what friendship is and they seem to understand love. Yes, they know a lot about vice. But how's that the same thing as not knowing anything about anything that isn't vice?


I'd say there's a qualitative difference between throwing a tantrum and sabotaging the mission.

It implies a serious emotional involvement, serious enough that she's willing to suffer for it.


Yes, preparation and waiting for the opportune moment. Once Elan's plan has come to fruition, who's to say in what state Tarquin will be?

You, apparently, given that you think he'll still be useful for the Directors?


Roy's chances of success against Xykon are pretty slim too, yet the first time they met he exploded the lich. Circumstances account for a lot in a fight.

"Circumstances" in this particular case mainly amount to "early installment weirdness" and even then, Roy merely inconvenienced Xykon for a short while without realizing, in the meantime, how little his "great victory" ultimately achieved.

[Fyraltari]

Then maybe blanket statements about embodiments of evil don't really hold up, and your argument falls on its face.
Why not?


Nobody in the comic can't understand change or growth because they are evil. If they can't understand things, it's because of actual character flaws. Hell, V couldn't understand that familicide was bad until they had it shoved in their face and they're neutral. Roy couldn't understand the vampire wasn't Durkon and he's Good. It's not alignment that causes misunderstandings, it's the characters own personality traits.
Alignment doesn't cause anything, it's supposed to be a (pretty bad) descriptors of personnality traits.
What I am saying is that the comic shows consistantly that the more evil characters have trouble recognizing growth and good motivations. Bozzok couldn't recognize Crystal thinking for herself for once; Tarquin can't understand Elan priorizing people over stories, Durkon* couldn't understand Sigdi and thought Thor was a liar, Redcloak thought the Azurite prisoners would reject O-Chul rather than be awed by his resolve, Hilgya thinks thinks Durkon is a serial philanderer and so on.

The Giant is also on record saying being evil isn't something you can turn on on the job and turn off with the family, it seeps into every facet of your life. If the universe labels you evil, it's not just because you're kind of selfish prick, like Enor and Ganji, it means there is something seriously wrong with you at a fundamental level.

Hell, I could go so far as to say that this comic shows people having trouble relating with people of opposite alignment on both axis the further they identify with one (just see how badly Girard misreads Soon while Roy, who hovers over the line to Neutral Good has a better relationship with the Chaotics of his team than Durkon; or how Belkar and Haley were the ones who won over Serini). Evil just seems to have it worst.

The Giant is also, also on record saying inborn alignment should be left for the overtly supernatural. So when he presents us with three archfiends working across Law-Chaos lines for the Greater Evil, I expect them to be as close to tge purest evil as the comic is going to get.

And frankly, nothing implies the IFCC can't or don't understand the things you claim they don't.


The thing is, we don't know that. We know how they played V. We don't know how they played people more righteous than V. They know what friendship is and they seem to understand love. Yes, they know a lot about vice. But how's that the same thing as not knowing anything about anything that isn't vice?
Answering both of you here:
We've had two scenes and a handful of cutaways with the Directors and they've spent most of it being very coy about what they're doin and why. 90% of our conversations about them is speculation.

To be clear, I am not saying it's 100% sure they'd be blindsided by Sabine betraying them because I'm 100% sure they don't understand true wuv, I'm saying ot wouldn't be absurd for the comic to unfold around these lines.
[QUOTE=Metastachydium;25578970](the annexed figure being, of course, Fyraltari)
What is that supposed to mean, exactly?

he certainly didn't humanize Xykon in the slightest in SoD and while X. got to do stuff that is arguably cool and clever (as in showing him to be strong, resourceful and smarter than he looks), I'm pretty sure few if any people liked the Bony Bastard more for that.
He even said he specifically tried to keep Xykon as unlikable as possible, to not make any excuses for him. But Xykon's not the protagonist of SoD, that's Redcloak. Xykon is the antagonist, at least in the second half.


It implies a serious emotional involvement, serious enough that she's willing to suffer for it.
Meh, it's a tantrum. It people throw tantrums over trivial things sometimes and then regret them.


You, apparently, given that you think he'll still be useful for the Directors?
I'm more hypothezing events happening in the reverse orders (VL being used by the IFCC, Elan's plan coming into action defeating leading into a kill-still by Sabine). The problem is I don't have a sodding clue what Elan's plan actually is, so I can't integrate it well into my theory.


"Circumstances" in this particular case mainly amount to "early installment weirdness" and even then, Roy merely inconvenienced Xykon for a short while without realizing, in the meantime, how little his "great victory" ultimately achieved.
Still beat him. Lilewise, Belkar shouldn't have been able to kill Durkon* by numbers alone but Durkon's intervention made it possible.

[Ruck]

And what would be the point of that? SoD served a purpose. Watching the Legion succeed at some task that has no bearing on the plot… Would not.

What was "the point" of "The Uncivil Servant"? Or "Haleo and Julelan"? Or, say, the Katos or Mr. Scruffy story, or the eventual C.P.P.D. story?

An entertaining story doesn't need any further justification for being.

[Peelee]

Why not?

..... Really? You make a blanket statement about embodiments of evil being incapable of understanding selflessness, then say that one embodiment of evil can be more selfless, and then you wonder why maybe that is incompatible with the blanket statement?

Because I gotta say, I quite seriously cannot explain it any better than that.

[Fyraltari]

..... Really? You make a blanket statement about embodiments of evil being incapable of understanding selflessness, then say that one embodiment of evil can be more selfless, and then you wonder why maybe that is incompatible with the blanket statement?

Because I gotta say, I quite seriously cannot explain it any better than that.

Did you miss the part when I said I don't think Sabine is an embodiment of pure evil?

[Peelee]

Did you miss the part when I said I don't think Sabine is an embodiment of pure evil?

Ah. I missed that.

We now have the problem of why you think three fiends are embodiments of pure evil and yet somehow think that a fourth fiend is not an embodiment of pure evil. And yet strangely, still the same problem of not making blanket statements about embodiments of pure evil.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Leaving aside my thoughts on the moralistic approach to fiction criticism-- Tarquin has been around long enough that a prequel story for him doesn't have to be a backstory or explain him at all. It could just simply be an early adventure of the Vector Legion, or something along those lines.

I get the distinct feeling that Tarquin vastly overstated his importance in the group's dynamics. I have little doubt that an unobjective view of the Vector Legion's early days and the start of the kingdom swapping scheme paints Tarquin as a barely tolerated narcist whose only value is his genre savviness (and even then, they must sift through his ego to get anything useful). I fully believe he was a even more insufferable Elan counterpart in his early adventuring days.

[Ruck]

I get the distinct feeling that Tarquin vastly overstated his importance in the group's dynamics. I have little doubt that an unobjective view of the Vector Legion's early days and the start of the kingdom swapping scheme paints Tarquin as a barely tolerated narcist whose only value is his genre savviness (and even then, they must sift through his ego to get anything useful). I fully believe he was a even more insufferable Elan counterpart in his early adventuring days.

Well, that's fine too. Vector Legion adventure, why not? Tarquin doesn't have to be the star or hero; I kinda figured he wouldn't be all that central among the group in a story like that.

Also, I think you mean objective, not unobjective.

[Fyraltari]

Ah. I missed that.

We now have the problem of why you think three fiends are embodiments of pure evil and yet somehow think that a fourth fiend is not an embodiment of pure evil. And yet strangely, still the same problem of not making blanket statements about embodiments of pure evil.

So, let me reiterate then: she's fallen in love. She genuinely cares about another being above her own interest. That's a good motivation. You can't be pure evil and have even a single good motivation, at this point you're just very evil. Maybe she was pure evil at some point, maybe she never was, it hardly matters, she isn't now. The leaders of the IFCC don't have any kind of backstory, or character really, besides "evil, smooth schemers". Maybe it'll turn out Nero found himself a boyfriend too, I don't know, but until we have more information, I am comfortable saying these fiends are pure evil and this one isn't, because that squares with what the comic shows and the author's words on the subject of evil and alignment.

[Metastachydium]

Answering both of you here:
We've had two scenes and a handful of cutaways with the Directors and they've spent most of it being very coy about what they're doin and why. 90% of our conversations about them is speculation.

To be clear, I am not saying it's 100% sure they'd be blindsided by Sabine betraying them because I'm 100% sure they don't understand true wuv, I'm saying ot wouldn't be absurd for the comic to unfold around these lines.

Absurd, no, unlikely (as far as I'm concerned), yes.


What is that supposed to mean, exactly?

Unless I'm gravely misunderstanding something, you posit that Tarquin will become an active threat again in service of the IFCC and therefore his story is not yet done.


He even said he specifically tried to keep Xykon as unlikable as possible, to not make any excuses for him. But Xykon's not the protagonist of SoD, that's Redcloak. Xykon is the antagonist, at least in the second half.

Well, Tarquin can't really be the protagonist of anything without the Giant shooting himslef in the foot, so…


Meh, it's a tantrum. It people throw tantrums over trivial things sometimes and then regret them.

A being of supposedly pure Evil who supposedly only felt some lust reacting so strongly to "something trivial" risking the anger of extremely powerful beings she supposedly serves unfailingly and unquestioningly is something that might strike a careful planner as odd.


I'm more hypothezing events happening in the reverse orders (VL being used by the IFCC, Elan's plan coming into action defeating leading into a kill-still by Sabine). The problem is I don't have a sodding clue what Elan's plan actually is, so I can't integrate it well into my theory.

Elan's action prettymuch can't possibly account for the IFCC's designs, because V told Roy about their active involvement after said plan was handed over to Ian.


Still beat him.

Again, that wasn't luck or seizing an opportunity. That was early installment weirdness resulting from the Giant not being sure yet how powerful Team Evil is supposed to be and therefore having them act off.


Lilewise, Belkar shouldn't have been able to kill Durkon* by numbers alone but Durkon's intervention made it possible.

Durkon destroyed Greg; Belkar was merely a weapon he employed. And that was the result of him playing a book-long game, not that of jumping at some sudden opportunity.


What was "the point" of "The Uncivil Servant"?

That's a main character.


Or "Haleo and Julelan"?

Transtextual fun outside the established canon.


Or, say, the Katos

Their whole point is "redshirts evolve into relevance/full characters". It fits the mould.


or Mr. Scruffy story,

Part of the main ensemlbe by association.


or the eventual C.P.P.D. story?

Let's cross that bridge when it's reached.


An entertaining story doesn't need any further justification for being.

A story about a creep of a character whose entire arc revolved around how he wanted to have stories about him and how the best way to beat him is denying him that pleasure? I'd say yes, yes it does.

[Shining Wrath]

I think that Tarquin is a Magnificent Bastard, and that once he finds out what happens to Laurin, he will Magnificently work on sealing that rift, even if it costs him everything. Because he's smart enough to know that his legend won't survive the annihilation of the world. He's got access to high level spell casters and the wealth of an entire nation, and even though he's an evil SOB, it's very important to him that there still be a world.

[Resileaf]

I get the distinct feeling that Tarquin vastly overstated his importance in the group's dynamics. I have little doubt that an unobjective view of the Vector Legion's early days and the start of the kingdom swapping scheme paints Tarquin as a barely tolerated narcist whose only value is his genre savviness (and even then, they must sift through his ego to get anything useful). I fully believe he was a even more insufferable Elan counterpart in his early adventuring days.

Although Tarquin clearly thinks himself more important than he probably was for the Legion, genre savyness is not the only thing he's got going for him. He's a very good, if flashy, fighter as well and a very clever strategist, and his charisma probably opened a lot of doors for the group.

[Peelee]

So, let me reiterate then: she's fallen in love. She genuinely cares about another being above her own interest. That's a good motivation. You can't be pure evil and have even a single good motivation, at this point you're just very evil. Maybe she was pure evil at some point, maybe she never was, it hardly matters, she isn't now. The leaders of the IFCC don't have any kind of backstory, or character really, besides "evil, smooth schemers". Maybe it'll turn out Nero found himself a boyfriend too, I don't know, but until we have more information, I am comfortable saying these fiends are pure evil and this one isn't, because that squares with what the comic shows and the author's words on the subject of evil and alignment.

Ok, but here's the thing. Sabine is a fiend. Lee, Nero and Cedric are fiends. They are the same level of "embodiment of evil", even if they are different species. It's lime saying that zombies and skeletons are the same level of undead, or cats and dogs are the same level of living creature. If you say embodiments of evil cannot understand falling in love, then Sabine cannot fall in love. If you say Sabine can fall in love, then embodiments of evil can understand that.

Youre trying to eat your cake and have it too. You're painting the IFCC with an incredibly broad brush with no basis other than "I haven't personally seen them do X in the limited time they have had on screen" for no reason other than that they are fiends while not taking into account we have seen another fiend do exactly what you claim fiends are incapable of doing.

[Shining Wrath]

Ok, but here's the thing. Sabine is a fiend. Lee, Nero and Cedric are fiends. They are the same level of "embodiment of evil", even if they are different species. It's lime saying that zombies and skeletons are the same level of undead, or cats and dogs are the same level of living creature. If you say embodiments of evil cannot understand falling in love, then Sabine cannot fall in love. If you say Sabine can fall in love, then embodiments of evil can understand that.

Youre trying to eat your cake and have it too. You're painting the IFCC with an incredibly broad brush with no basis other than "I haven't personally seen them do X in the limited time they have had on screen" for no reason other than that they are fiends while not taking into account we have seen another fiend do exactly what you claim fiends are incapable of doing.

I'd make the argument that if Sabine truly loved Nale, she stopped being a fiend. There's one of two plot twists available; she's no longer a fiend despite appearances, and thus can betray IFCC; or she never truly loved Nale despite appearances, and can betray him for her true masters. Shouldn't Nale be somewhere in the lower realms where Sabine could visit him?

[Fyraltari]

Ok, but here's the thing. Sabine is a fiend. Lee, Nero and Cedric are fiends. They are the same level of "embodiment of evil", even if they are different species. It's lime saying that zombies and skeletons are the same level of undead, or cats and dogs are the same level of living creature. If you say embodiments of evil cannot understand falling in love, then Sabine cannot fall in love. If you say Sabine can fall in love, then embodiments of evil can understand that.

Youre trying to eat your cake and have it too. You're painting the IFCC with an incredibly broad brush with no basis other than "I haven't personally seen them do X in the limited time they have had on screen" for no reason other than that they are fiends while not taking into account we have seen another fiend do exactly what you claim fiends are incapable of doing.

You realize it's possible to experience something without understanding it at first, right? I'd say the Belkar from #0001 wouldn't understand where the current Belkar's head is at. Hell, I'd say that for very syrong emotions such as romantic love or grief, you can't really understand them in others until you've gone through something similar yourself, you can grasp it intellectually but not really, really understand, if you get my meaning. So it would make sense for the Directors not to recognize love in a place they wouldn't expect it to be, another fiend.

Roy's deva described herself as a being of pure Law and Good, implying that all Outsiders are, or at least start as pure embodiments of their respective plane's alignment. So that's my default assumption regarding the leaders of the IFCC, until given reason to re-asses. Sabine probably did start pure evil, but one way or another she's got some good in her evil just like how Lee got some Chaos in his Law and Cedrik some Law in his Chaos (not that they have any distinctive traits thay show that off, these three are one character for all narrative intents an purposes).

Maybe it's as easy as the company you keep rubbing off on you. All the Outsiders who stay in their native planes have an easier time staying true to their alignment because everybody around them is of that alignment, it's a feed-back loop, but the Outsiders who frequently go to Earth where everything is muddled and in shades of grey have bigger chances of slipping.

[brian 333]

On the topic of Sabine's not being pure Evil:

The evidence of this is her love for Nale. Selfless love is a Good act, and therefore cannot exist in a being of pure Evil.

But is her love selfless? Is it True Love at all?

We see a demon who exploits a living being at her masters' request. The demon enjoys doing so, even going so far as to use his fantasies to manipulate him. But is this love? Or is she simply enjoying the attention?

When Nale gets dusted she responds with violence. But would she have behaved differently had he simply been her favorite chew toy? Was she truly in love with him, or did she consider him a pet?

Evil beings can love and be loved. It won't be the brand of love with which you may be familiar. It may even be a bit strange and twisted. But it is what they feel that counts.

Sabine may be Evil and love Nale for being someone who stimulates her emotionally. She may be Evil and love Nale because he is her best toy. She may be Evil and had a plan to pretend to love Nale to further her Evil agenda, and her anger was at years worth of manipulation wasted when Nale got dusted.

Or, maybe, she really does experience selfless love. It's just not the only possible explanation for what we see.

[Yuki Akuma]

I'd make the argument that if Sabine truly loved Nale, she stopped being a fiend.

Well, that's literally not how it works in D&D, so that would be a pretty bad argument.

[Mike Havran]

I'm not sure Nale could carry a story himself, to be honest. The most I could see would be the story of T.'s marriage with Elan's mother told from her perspective or something like that, and that would still be quite dark while serving little purpose.I can totally see a set of short(ish) stories following a timeline, with alternating focal characters, much like a combination of SoD and GDGU. Example contents:

1. (~25 years ago, a few pages only). Introduction and early days of Vector Legion.
2. (~20 years ago, short story). Plot introduction. Elan's mom breaks up with Tarquin. Tarquin and Nale arrive on Western continent. Origin of Tarquin's scheme. Introduction of IFCC, monitoring the situation.
3. (~12 years ago, short story). Nale's "forming days". Nale meets Thog. Malack does something to Nale, or possibly sires his offspring. Miron owns Tarquin a favor. Sabine enters the story on behest of IFCC.
4. (~2 years ago, main story). LG ascent. Sabine falls in love with Nale. Empire of Blood. Enter Zz'dtri and Yikyik. Falling out between LG and VL, demise of Malack's offspring, escape, Hilgya enters, plot for Talisman.
5. (contemporary, second longest story). Sabine on Western continent. Amun Zora's revenge attempt, Elan's plan, Ian, Geoff. Sabine ends up with a suitable wessel and joins the main OotS plot.
6. (unspecified future, a few pages only). Denouement of Vector Legion. Shoulder Pad Guy finally says something.

[Fyraltari]

Unless I'm gravely misunderstanding something, you posit that Tarquin will become an active threat again in service of the IFCC and therefore his story is not yet done.
I meant "why are you calling me an "annexed figure"".

[pearl jam]

Ok, but here's the thing. Sabine is a fiend. Lee, Nero and Cedric are fiends. They are the same level of "embodiment of evil", even if they are different species. It's lime saying that zombies and skeletons are the same level of undead, or cats and dogs are the same level of living creature. If you say embodiments of evil cannot understand falling in love, then Sabine cannot fall in love. If you say Sabine can fall in love, then embodiments of evil can understand that.

Youre trying to eat your cake and have it too. You're painting the IFCC with an incredibly broad brush with no basis other than "I haven't personally seen them do X in the limited time they have had on screen" for no reason other than that they are fiends while not taking into account we have seen another fiend do exactly what you claim fiends are incapable of doing.

That evil fails to understand love is hardly a new theme in literature, as Fyraltari has previously pointed out with Sauron. It was a repeated theme with regard to Voldemort as well. Also with less extreme examples such as Scrooge or the Grinch before their respective epiphanies. The point isn't that the IFCC are incapable of understanding another fiend, broadly speaking, as your response here is doing, or even so much that they can't understand Sabine specifically so much as they don't properly understand genuine love and if, as is being suggested, Sabine is operating out of genuine love for Nale, then the IFCC may not properly recognize that. It doesn't really seem to be that controversial of an opinion and certainly has plenty of literary precedent.

[Peelee]

That evil fails to understand love is hardly a new theme in literature, as Fyraltari has previously pointed out with Sauron. It was a repeated theme with regard to Voldemort as well. Also with less extreme examples such as Scrooge or the Grinch before their respective epiphanies. The point isn't that the IFCC are incapable of understanding another fiend, broadly speaking, as your response here is doing, or even so much that they can't understand Sabine specifically so much as they don't properly understand genuine love and if, as is being suggested, Sabine is operating out of genuine love for Nale, then the IFCC may not properly recognize that. It doesn't really seem to be that controversial of an opinion and certainly has plenty of literary precedent.

Yeah, it this is not Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter or How the Grinch Stole Christmas or a Christmas Carol. I've already shown the author of this very work who explicitly explained a story where the heroes grossly undercut themselves by assuming that evil would not understand love because they assumed the purely logical aspect without thinking of the emotional aspect at all.

Or, to sum up, despite Fyraltari's claims, I have not seen that as a theme in OotS. And, in fact, I have seen the opposite. Why an embodiment of evil literally showcasing the opposite of what he claims is somehow not an empediment to his argument I will not pretend to understand, but to me it is so patently plain that it shows him to be wrong that after multiple attempts at explaining it, I have given up and will just let the narrative go where it will, which I think will not be in the direction he thinks it will.

[Fyraltari]

I've already shown the author of this very work who explicitly explained a story where the heroes grossly undercut themselves by assuming that evil would not understand love because they assumed the purely logical aspect without thinking of the emotional aspect at all.
Okay, but the point of that story is that one may have villains who have genuinely good traits in them. Not that the author would never have villains with zero good traits as should be patently obvious by the fact that Xykon exists.

The Giant also made it clear on a couple occasions thay when it comes to alignment he draws a line between mortal characters and "overtly supernatural ones".


Or, to sum up, despite Fyraltari's claims, I have not seen that as a theme in OotS. And, in fact, I have seen the opposite.
Tarquin, Bozzok, Durkon*, to a lesser extent Crystal, Nale and Malack.

Why an embodiment of evil literally showcasing the opposite of what he claims is somehow not an empediment to his argument I will not pretend to understand but
I have explained it several times, let me make one last attempt: People can change, even if you are a pure embodiment of something, you may not stay that way.


to me it is so patently plain that it shows him to be wrong that after multiple attempts at explaining it.
To me it seems that you are refusing to listen to the arguments I presented, and it is starting to wear my patience off.

[Kish]

I think it was certainly huge and central to the most recent book that Tarquin didn't understand love. Or understand that he didn't understand love.

I would not be at all surprised if the same is true of Xykon and the leaders of the IFCC.

And for Redcloak, love would obviously be "something weaker than ego."

I don't know how healthy Sabine and Nale's relationship was or ever could be, considering the participants, but Sabine is already different from Lee, Nero, and Cedrik in that she's been depicted doing things that aren't focused on whatever the IFCC's mysterious evil goal is, ever.

[Metastachydium]

I meant "why are you calling me an »annexed figure«".

Would you prefer Exhibit A? (On a more serious note, it's a turn of phrase I like for some reason; I didn't mean to offend you and apologies if I did that anyway.)

[Bedinsis]

If we ever return to Tarquin & C:o, here's how I'd like to see it play out:

As things turn out, the only reason the Empire of Blood hadn't collapsed already despite Tarquin thinking like a story is that Malack was in place to keep him under wraps and not indulge in his proclivities. With him out of the picture, in conjunction with the plan Elan provided Ian, Amun-Zora, Enor and Gannji, the empire is toppled in a deliberately unspecified way, and Tarquin is forced to live a regular life. Being denied his position both as a de facto dictator and as a main villain of a story, he decides to pursue the Order to have a grand climactic showdown to at least assure the latter. In the showdown he gains the upper hand, before Elan lures him by telling how he'll retell his adventures and how he was conflicted by one of his main antagonists being related to him (something that makes Tarquin go "Yes! Yes! Yes!") before revealing that he'd merge his character with Nale in his story, since it is easier to keep track of, the audience already know of the character and any budding villain hearing the story would conclude that Nale's behaviour was worth emulating since he apparently ruled an empire, thereby stopping them in their tracks. That will leave Tarquin outraged, him being denied the glory, to which Elan will claim that he is already sounding more and more like Nale. They then defeat him, his only possible role in the story going forwards being the one left void by Nale, i.e. as a reoccurring minor threat not worth considering.

[Emanick]

If we ever return to Tarquin & C:o, here's how I'd like to see it play out:

As things turn out, the only reason the Empire of Blood hadn't collapsed already despite Tarquin thinking like a story is that Malack was in place to keep him under wraps and not indulge in his proclivities. With him out of the picture, in conjunction with the plan Elan provided Ian, Amun-Zora, Enor and Gannji, the empire is toppled in a deliberately unspecified way, and Tarquin is forced to live a regular life. Being denied his position both as a de facto dictator and as a main villain of a story, he decides to pursue the Order to have a grand climactic showdown to at least assure the latter. In the showdown he gains the upper hand, before Elan lures him by telling how he'll retell his adventures and how he was conflicted by one of his main antagonists being related to him (something that makes Tarquin go "Yes! Yes! Yes!") before revealing that he'd merge his character with Nale in his story, since it is easier to keep track of, the audience already know of the character and any budding villain hearing the story would conclude that Nale's behaviour was worth emulating since he apparently ruled an empire, thereby stopping them in their tracks. That will leave Tarquin outraged, him being denied the glory, to which Elan will claim that he is already sounding more and more like Nale. They then defeat him, his only possible role in the story going forwards being the one left void by Nale, i.e. as a reoccurring minor threat not worth considering.

I love this. This is great. Elan trolling Tarquin this way would be hilarious, and this scenario would be in character for both of them.


Would you prefer Exhibit A? (On a more serious note, it's a turn of phrase I like for some reason; I didn't mean to offend you and apologies if I did that anyway.)

I am not Fyraltari, obviously, but I was also confused by what you meant by calling him an "annexed figure." It didn't strike me as offensive so much as completely nonsensical; I have absolutely no idea what that phrase could mean, at least outside of a few very specific contexts that don't apply here.

[Metastachydium]

I am not Fyraltari, obviously, but I was also confused by what you meant by calling him an "annexed figure." It didn't strike me as offensive so much as completely nonsensical; I have absolutely no idea what that phrase could mean, at least outside of a few very specific contexts that don't apply here.

Now, your confusion only serves to confuse me in turn. The phrase in question tends to refer to an image/diagram/whatever that is shown alongside some manner of text, illustrating some aspect thereof. It may feature examples or further specifications that would otherwise clutter up the text. Fyraltari functioned as a such insofar as his position exemplified a stance on what role Tarquin may or may not have before the story would conclude.

[Peelee]

Okay, but the point of that story is that one may have villains who have genuinely good traits in them.
No it wasn't. The point of that story, which was explicitly stated in that story, was that thinking purely logically and ignoring any emotional thought is a mistake. And that is exactly what you're doing here. You're ignoring that they can have emotional feelings and just handwaving away any assertion that your base assumption might be wrong.

I have explained it several times, let me make one last attempt: People can change
If you can change, that means you are not incapable of understanding. It may mean that you don't currently understand, but it doesn't mean that you can't understand. You're saying that they are incapable of understanding because of what they are. Hell, why not just say the goblins are incapable of understanding civilization because they're goblins? Sure, some can change like the ones in the hobgoblin village...


To me it seems that you are refusing to listen to the arguments I presented, and it is starting to wear my patience off.
I can promise you, I am listening to your arguments. It's just that I see them as bad arguments at best and atrocious at worst. I fundamentally disagree with your arguments at the most basic level.

I think it was certainly huge and central to the most recent book that Tarquin didn't understand love. Or understand that he didn't understand love.

Sure, Tarquin didn't. Not because he was a human, or because of what class he was, or because he was Evil. He didn't understand love because he couldn't comprehend the concept of doing something for others without any gain to himself. Which is a far cry from "the fiends cannot understand love because they are fiends". Sure they may not, but we haven't seen nearly enough about them to make that call.

[stevecharb]

My guess:
Tarquin returns for the final battle against Xykon, opting for a heel-face turn, but then he and his armies are destroyed. Elan discusses the Redemption Equals Death trope with his dying father.

[Bacon Elemental]

And?
It's like how in The Lord of the Rings Sauron can manipulate Saruman, Denethor or Ar-Pharzôn and predict how they going to act, but is at a loss when it comes to Gandalf, Frodo or Aragorn because the former act on their evil impulses and thought-process while the latter don't and he can only relate to that anymore.


Mostly what Sauron uses to manipulate people is fear and greed (And he's much better at the former). Denethor wasn't manipulated because he acts on his evil impulses, he was manipulated by being surreptitiously shown through Sauron's control of the other Palantir how utterly impossible it was to defeat Sauron and how the destruction of his people was inevitable no matter how hard he looked for a way out. Saruman seems to have been a similar case, except his greater knowledge of Sauron made it all the more crushing a blow such that he actually changed sides (mostly). Ar-Pharazon was manipulated because Sauron understood how even the greatest of all lords and kings feared death, and dangled that fear over the kings of Numenor's heads. Gandalf, Frodo, and Aragorn mostly have the dual advantages of 1) Sauron not having time to directly assault their fears and worries and 2) Sure knowledge that hope remains as long as Frodo gets closer to Mount Doom and the destruction of the Ring. Without those advantages I'm sure that in time even they could have been cowed.

The only real blind spot of Sauron was the idea that anyone might choose to try and destroy the One Ring. It was an object of immense power, that many of even the wise assumed would grant them vast powers if they claimed and mastered it (Whether it actually would have is much-debated), and caused immense magical greed and possessiveness on the bearer. He was absolutely sure that even the most incorruptible of souls would never be able to destroy it, and at the very last was proven correct. NOBODY could have actually willingly stood in the cracks of doom and dropped it into the fire. Only fate and the previous mercy of the hobbits allowed for any result but his victory.

Ultimately even Sauron is not just mere Evil incarnate.

[WanderingMist]

He was absolutely sure that even the most incorruptible of souls would never be able to destroy it, and at the very last was proven correct. NOBODY could have actually willingly stood in the cracks of doom and dropped it into the fire. Only fate and the previous mercy of the hobbits allowed for any result but his victory.

Ultimately even Sauron is not just mere Evil incarnate.

Didn't the Ring fail entirely on Sam, though? I think he would have willingly thrown it in, and possibly the only reason he didn't just push Frodo in when Frodo faltered at the crevice was out of loyalty to Frodo.

[Laurentio III]

Sam's defense was humbleness, and he could resist the lure of the One Ring like few people could. But he didn't have to carry it for days, so we don't know who would have won in the end.
For sure, there was a reason for Gandalf to put Sam on Frodo's heels.

[ZhonLord]

Didn't the Ring fail entirely on Sam, though? I think he would have willingly thrown it in, and possibly the only reason he didn't just push Frodo in when Frodo faltered at the crevice was out of loyalty to Frodo.

Actually no. In the books, Sam used the Ring to save Frodo, and in the half a day it took for him to get to his hobbit buddy, the ring had woven a fantasy for him of using its power combined with his gardening skills to bring greenery back to Mordor, and convert the remaining orcs to good guys by showing them how awesome it is to grow your own food and taste the fruits of your labors. He BARELY had enough willpower to hand it back to Frodo at the top of that watch tower instead of running off with it like a new Golumn.

Now granted, 6-10 hours of resisting the One Ring is still an unprecedented feat for anyone else. Isildur himself fell to it in a matter of one hour or less. Gandalf was so terrified of touching it for longer than five seconds that he clearly felt temptation. Galadriel nearly lost herself just from being offered it. Sam is a boss of a halfling and definitely had the right stuff to resist the Ring for a while, but he would NOT have been able to finish taking the Ring to Mount Doom himself and throw it in. It HAD to be Frodo who took it the final length, or else it wouldn't have happened at all.

[Fyraltari]

To be fair to Isildur, the closer the Ring gets to Mount Doom, the more powerful its allure. The Professor once wrote that no-one East of the Great Sea (which I'm pretty sure means no one but Manwë, who alledgedly has no evil whatsoever in his heart) could have actually mustered the will to destroy it. Which is why Providence, in the form of Gollum, had to step in and finish the job once the mortals had done all they could and proven their worth by sparing Gollum a handful of times.

[Metastachydium]

his gardening skills to bring greenery back to Mordor, and convert the remaining orcs to good guys by showing them how awesome it is to grow your own food and taste the fruits of your labors.

I want an apocryphal sequel where that actually happens. I want it.

[Fyraltari]

I want an apocryphal sequel where that actually happens. I want it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-mgaDC6Vg

[Metastachydium]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM-mgaDC6Vg

…
Some of your sins are hereby forgiven. (WHY ARE THOSE ORCS SO CUTE EVEN BEFORE TURNING INTO BIRDIES?)

[Laurentio III]

…
Some of your sins are hereby forgiven. (WHY ARE THOSE ORCS SO CUTE EVEN BEFORE TURNING INTO BIRDIES?)
And what were the knights for? Cheerleadering?

[Fyraltari]

And what were the knights for? Cheerleadering?

Yes. It's part of the power fantasy.

[Laurentio III]

Yes. It's part of the power fantasy.
My personal power fantasies requires a lot less of Y-chromosome bystanders, but it's Sam we are speaking about.

Anyway, it's a great short. Thanks for the sharing!

[Fyraltari]

…
Some of your sins are hereby forgiven. (WHY ARE THOSE ORCS SO CUTE EVEN BEFORE TURNING INTO BIRDIES?)
They were Elves once...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y


Anyway, it's a great short. Thanks for the sharing!

Short? It's a movie!

[Laurentio III]

Short? It's a movie!
Thanks for the five minutes of it.

[Metastachydium]

They were Elves once...
[video=youtube;YdXQJS3Yv0Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdXQJS3Yv0Y[video]

Cursed be, vile Frenchman! Now it's stuck in my head (my upper bits (my metaphorical upper bits (whatever; you get what I mean)))!

[Rrmcklin]

For my part, I've never seen a reason for Tarquin or his merry band to enter the story as a major part ever again, as that always struck me as going against exactly what the author actually wanted.

As far as Sabine goes, whether her love for Nale is genuine or not, if I'm understanding the conversation it reads a bit like we're just ignoring the things the author has said applies to and he thinks about while writing evil characters as if they don't apply to Sabine for some reason.

Unless the argument has become, not just that she isn't a living incarnation of evil anymore (dubious), but also that she just literally isn't even evil anymore.

[pyrefiend]

I feel like all of the "pure incarnation of evil" talk is not really that helpful.

The point is that Sabine loves Nale, and maybe the IFCC won't correctly predict her actions because they don't understand love. Maybe they don't understand love because their particular brand of evil is of the pragmatic, cold-and-calculating variety.

I don't think this will turn out to be the case. (For one thing, the IFCC make scarily accurate Pre-Faustian psych reports (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html), so I'd say they seem to have a good understanding of emotions.) But I don't think that it's a totally absurd idea, either.

[ti'esar]

My expectation would be a temporary return to Girard's Rift in order to seal it up after the Dark One's finally convinced to ally with existing pantheons. They arrive, see the carnage the Snarl has caused, have some interactions with the Tarquin Squad, then seal up the rift and move on to the next one.

Emphasis mine, because while I don't think things will play out this way, I do think the thread focusing entirely on Tarquin is missing the point that the biggest loose end related to the Vector Legion and BS&T empires isn't him, it's the tower-sized tentacles of eldritchness erupting out of Girard's Rift when last seen. It's entirely possible that scene was only meant to show that the Snarl does exist and is now "awake" again - or whatever - but it's not a certainty.