Would These Changes Help or Hamper a Champion?

[SociopathFriend]

Skip to the bolded line if you want to see the changes without context.

So I don't dislike the Champion as a concept, frankly I love the idea of a Fighter who isn't about ancient orders of secret moves (Battlemaster) or augmenting themselves with magic (Eldritch Knight) or disciplined behind a will of honor and iron (Samurai) and so on- a Fighter who focuses on raw physical prowess and martial excellence is great to me.

However I feel the Champion's current 'kit' for lack of a better word doesn't fulfill the fantasy:
Said fantasy-

The archetypal Champion focuses on the development of raw physical power honed to deadly perfection. Those who model themselves on this archetype combine rigorous training with physical excellence to deal devastating blows.

But what does the Champion really get?

Lvl 3 - increased crit chance
Lvl 7 - half proficiency on a type of check seldom used in modules plus better jumping
Lvl 10 - another fighting style
Lvl 15 - increased crit chance
Lvl 18 - regeneration below half hp



From where I stand:

I don't like increased crit chance in 5e. If I never roll a 19 from Lvls 3-6 in combat then I effectively have no subclass- everyone crits on a 20 after all. It feels less like "deadly perfection" and more like occasionally getting lucky. If you roll poorly- you might not even do more damage with the crit.
Remarkable Athlete is actually quite good if a DM actually uses Ability Checks. If they instead only use Skill Checks then this is basically a small Initiative buff plus you can jump farther. This actually can feel like "physical excellence" in the right circumstances.
While I find another fighting style at lvl 10 to be a pretty pathetic example of "rigorous training" it nevertheless does fulfill the fantasy to a degree. Others have trained only to master one way of fighting while a Champion learns two.
At lvl 15 (seldom reached in most campaigns) you do get to crit on an 18 as well as a 19- obviously better. But as your crits hit no harder- I do not feel as though it's a "devastating blow". A Barbarian at lvl 15- not any particular subclass but ALL Barbarians- gets to add not one but TWO damage die to any crit they get. Now that's a devastating blow.
And once lvl 18 rolls around (just about never) you do get to demonstrate "raw physical power" to keep going all day so long as you can. You don't die till you're dead.



So I am considering the following changes to Champion:

Lvl 3 - After rolling but before a hit/miss is announced- a Champion can declare the result of a Weapon Attack Roll to be equal to their Strength or Dexterity Score. This feature can be used a number of times equal to your Fighter Lvl/3.
Lvl 7 - Unchanged
Lvl 10 - Unchanged
Lvl 15 - When rolling a Critical Hit- if the total damage would be less than the Champion's Fighter Lvl- you may use your Lvl plus your Strength or Dexterity modifier to calculate the damage instead.
Lvl 18 - Unchanged


The idea was to keep the Champion relatively simple (a supposed requirement of the subclass- I disagree) and grant players more agency over how well they perform in battle as well of advancing the fantasy of becoming a Fighter dedicated to perfecting the art of combat and dishing out heavy hits when it really counts.

Once you max out your given attacking score- it's a guaranteed crit- and at Lvl 15 you're assured your crit is gonna pack a certain baseline for damage. I was not intending to radically alter Champion damage numbers overall.

It's just something that's been sitting in the back of my mind for years. I figured I should post it now just to clear it out seeing as the next D&D might make it obsolete anyways.

[Saelethil]

A couple things. First, I like your changes. I can see the level 3 ability being used (and useful) far more often than the original. Second, skill checks are ability checks. Remarkable Athlete effectively 1/2 proficiency in any Str, Dex, or Con skill you aren’t already proficient in which usually means a small bump in stealth and slightly of hand which is fine. I would reword the feature so that it stacked with proficiency but not expertise so that they can be exceptional at all physical skills without overshadowing the things a rogue may have specialized in.

[Composer99]

One of the things I conceptually like about the champion (even if I wouldn't care to play it myself) is that it doesn't require tracking any character resources beyond those that everyone tracks (hit points and Hit Dice) and those that all fighters track (second wind, action surge, and indomitable) - for them as want that kind of gameplay.

That stated, if you're going to add a resource for the champion to track, this does seem to be the way to go about it.

Some comments/suggestions:

Regarding... let's call it Superb Attack, since it's otherwise unnamed:

After rolling but before a hit/miss is announced- a Champion can declare the result of a Weapon Attack Roll to be equal to their Strength or Dexterity Score. This feature can be used a number of times equal to your Fighter Lvl/3.



Since you mention later that this is supposed to allow an auto-crit once the fighter has a 20 in either score, you might want to clarify that you are specifically replacing the d20 roll (or worded differently, the number rolled on the d20/die) with the chosen score, to distinguish this feature from a barbarian's Indomitable Might, which replaces the entire total of a Strength check with their Strength score.

Also, the usage is unclear with respect to refreshing - does it refresh on a short or long rest, or on a long rest only?

Finally, apropos of usage, I wonder if you'd want to change it, in line with many class features from Xanathar's on, to a usage model of proficiency bonus times per long rest, with, say, either (or both) of the following additional top-ups:
- Regain one expended use when you finish a short rest
- If you're out of uses of this feature, regain one use when you roll for initiative (lining up with many similar features)

Regarding Remarkable Athlete:
You haven't specified any changes, but by my reckoning, this feature should really give any champion with proficiency in Acrobatics and Athletics expertise in those skills, as well as adding half their proficiency bonus to any Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution check they make that doesn't already include their proficiency bonus.

To my mind, that better fulfills the class fantasy of the champion. Also, it's not really intruding on the rogue's niche, since the rogue can get expertise in so many other skills (or thieves' tools) and has Reliable Talent to boot.

[Ulsan Krow]

Of course they help but its also not a Champion anymore.

[SociopathFriend]

One of the things I conceptually like about the champion (even if I wouldn't care to play it myself) is that it doesn't require tracking any character resources beyond those that everyone tracks (hit points and Hit Dice) and those that all fighters track (second wind, action surge, and indomitable) - for them as want that kind of gameplay.


I'm not going to say that sort of player doesn't exist- only that in my experience they have ALL without any exception gone Barbarian rather than Champion. And they simply ignore everything that isn't Rage.





Since you mention later that this is supposed to allow an auto-crit once the fighter has a 20 in either score, you might want to clarify that you are specifically replacing the d20 roll (or worded differently, the number rolled on the d20/die) with the chosen score, to distinguish this feature from a barbarian's Indomitable Might, which replaces the entire total of a Strength check with their Strength score.

Also, the usage is unclear with respect to refreshing - does it refresh on a short or long rest, or on a long rest only?


Hmmm so something like:
Superb Attack - After rolling at least one d20 for Weapon Attack Roll but before a hit/miss is announced- a Champion can declare the number shown on the d20 to be equal to their Strength or Dexterity Score.





Also, the usage is unclear with respect to refreshing - does it refresh on a short or long rest, or on a long rest only?

Finally, apropos of usage, I wonder if you'd want to change it, in line with many class features from Xanathar's on, to a usage model of proficiency bonus times per long rest, with, say, either (or both) of the following additional top-ups:
- Regain one expended use when you finish a short rest
- If you're out of uses of this feature, regain one use when you roll for initiative (lining up with many similar features)


I'm unsure how often it should refresh as well as generally be available because I'm unable to predict the 'math' of the changes.

Like I don't want six crits every Short Rest if that's going to send my Champion skyrocketing past everyone else

[Composer99]

I'm unsure how often it should refresh as well as generally be available because I'm unable to predict the 'math' of the changes.

Like I don't want six crits every Short Rest if that's going to send my Champion skyrocketing past everyone else

Mathematical analysis, both of the quick-and-dirty kind - like this one on Reddit (https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/hi5t2q/comparing_the_champion_and_battlemaster_through/) - and otherwise, have shown that the Champion is woefully behind on damage-per-attack. Using the linked post for reference, without a continual source of advantage, a 3rd-level Champion has to make over 80 attacks on average just to catch up to the average damage output of a 3rd-level Battlemaster, with both wielding the same weapon, before anyone's taken so much as a short rest (whereupon the BM gets more Superiority Dice and the Champion gets bupkiss).

Let's do a little quick-and-dirty math ourselves.

For straight fighters, let's assume a single-class, 6th-level fighter with a greatsword, Strength 20 and great weapon fighting style; we don't care about GWM for this example because it adds a flat amount of damage that isn't modified by a critical hit.

Without subclass features, this fighter's damage-per-hit (DPH) is 13 and 1/3 (12 plus the effect of the fighting style) and their damage-per-crit (DPC) is 21 and 2/3.

To get damage-per-attack, we multiply the DPH by the hit rate and the DPC by the crit rate. Assuming a 60% hit rate and a 5% crit rate, this fighter's average DPA without subclasses is 9.083.

At this level, the Battlemaster has 4d8 Superiority Dice. Let's assume the Champion can auto-crit a number of times per long rest equal to their proficiency bonus - so 3 times. The Battlemaster's DPA becomes 12.133 when they use Superiority Dice, and the Champion's auto-crit DPA is 21.667.

For the purpose of easy maths, let's assume both of them use their abilities ASAP. If no one takes a short rest, the Champion is now the one who gets off to an early lead - 65.001 damage after 3 attacks versus the BM 36.399 - and the Battlemaster can't ever catch up.

If you take a short rest after 8 rounds of combat, and assuming in each round both fighters only take the Attack action and attack every time, after 16 rounds of combat (so 32 attacks), the BM has now used 8 Superiority Dice, and the sum total DPA is 311.973 for the BM and 322.242 for the Champion. (Still coasting on those auto-crits!)

It's only after two short rests and the BM getting in all their Superiority Dice that they finally slightly overtake the Champion, and they'll remain slightly ahead for the remainder of the adventuring day.

You'd have to look at how the changes to BM Superiority Dice as they gain levels (more and bigger dice) changes the maths for BM and how different use rates for auto-crit changes the maths for Champion, but it seems to me that once your Champion can auto-crit, if you're getting in 6-8 encounters per day with two short rests, Battlemaster and Champion are likely to end up about balanced with each other on the whole, with the trade-off between the two being the Champion's big hits versus the extra utility provided by Superiority Dice. (If anything, Champion might come out ahead given the BM might want to use Superiority Dice on non-combat stuff with the Tasha's options.) Up until the Champion can auto-crit, though, they're behind the Battlemaster, with no hope of ever catching up because they don't have the doubled crit rate. But maybe they don't care because at least they can turn a few misses into hits along the way (which should make up some of the difference).

Under these assumptions, once it can auto-crit Champion does pull well ahead of Battlemaster if you're having a short adventuring day, which isn't uncommon. So I guess it's a question as to what kind of adventuring day you want to base your features around.

[SociopathFriend]

Of course they help but its also not a Champion anymore.

To be fair- you've a 95% chance not to be a Champion with every Attack Roll you make between Lvls 3 to 6.