Help with a Scouting Factotum Build? (Spiked Chain)

[UltraShiko]

Race; Human (“Tiefling”)
Flaws for Feats; 2
Weapon; Spiked Chain (Feycraft)
Stats;
13 - STR
17 - DEX
12 - CON
18 - INT
14 - WIS
10 - CHA
Lvl 1: Factotum (EWP (Spiked Chain), Able Learner, Darkstalker, Font of Inspiration)
Lvl 2; Factotum
Lvl 3; Factotum (Font of Inspiration)
Lvl 4; Factotum +1 Dex
Lvl 5; Factotum
Lvl 6; Factotum (Font of Inspiration
Lvl 7; Factotum
Lvl 8; Factotum +1 IINT (Going to pump this from here on)
Lvl 9; Swordsage 1 (Weapon Focus Spiked Chain, Shadow Hand, Assassin’s Stance)
Lvl 10; Factotum 9 or Swordsage 2
Lvl X Chameleon (Knowledge Devotion, Power Attack, Whatever)

Spiked Chain was picked for Shadow Blade and the range. Wanted swordsage for the manuevers and assassin’s stance.

Only reason I’m not going Tiefling is because DM will not let us buy off the LA. Fortunately a wand of darkvision will suffice, and I can always cast it on myself if need be. I could grab LA+0 Tiefling for the extra Dex and Darkvision in exchange for dropping Chameleon. Factotum and Swordsage are strong on their own for this to not matter too much. That said, the lack of LA+1 Int bonus is rough…

What are your guys’ thoughts?

[ciopo]

Take a look to wisplings in fiend folio, iirc they're LA +0 with -2str +4dex +2 int, might need to "lesser" them with that player guide to faerun template

I'm relatively sure you can't power attack with feycrafted weapons, due to the step down to light designation

Take note that a literal read of swordsage prevents you from taking assassin stance at 1st swordsage level, because it's stance feature sadly specify it has to be a 1st level stance

Otherwise, seems all good to me

[UltraShiko]

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up. I guess a second level in SS will be necessary then.

What are your thoughts on a STR build instead of dex. DM is allowing lesser tiefling (+2 Dex +2 Int) and with the bonuses to hide, I can easily get away with 14 in Dex while still being stealthy.

Main reason is for tripping and Power Attack. Dex trippers need Mighty Throw. The only downside is that I won’t be able to afford Improved Trip thanks to the feat tax. I can use a 2nd level spell to get the feat for a bit though

[bean illus]

Well of course, it depends on what kind of campaign it is, but i caution. It takes a DM who loves factotum for 8 levels to be useful, and survive.
Don't get me wrong, i love facto. That's a great low level scout. The problem is that they don't do anything else very well. I'm a skills freak, but skills aren't spells. You're flaws help, but without tripping resources spiked chain just a weapon.

I know you wanna keep cunning surge, so maybe
facto 5/ cham 2 ?, then fact 8.

That doubles and triples your spell access, and grants +2 Will and Fort saves, as well as the floating feat. It also makes you a better scout.
It's very important to understand how much spell access a cham 2 has. As soon as you enter you'd be nearly on par with the full casters in your party. There's an entire handbook about it.

Assassin's is nice, but without combat resource investment a situational 2d6 isn't going to change much. I'd skip this unless you're going several levels and some combat feats.
No need for facto 9 unless you want facto 11. Cunning Breach is nice, if you have the spells.

The next chameleon benchmarks are 5 and 7. I think cham 5 is stronger than a mystic theurge 13-14, and can find a way to use cunning surge.
Cham 7 is just nuts. In a 12th level party you're a frontline dual caster. With facto 8/ cham 5 you're close at 13th level (and still the best scout in the party).

There's a trick chameleon does with the planar touchstone feat and the extra spell feat. The touchstone grants you a cleric spell at character level = cleric level, and then extra spell in the floating feat allows chameleon TWO extra spells at one level below that. Let us know if you need pointers on that.

Facto 5/ cham 2/ facto +3/ cham +3/ fact +3/ cham +4
Facto 11/ Chameleon 9

Now you have 8th level all spell list access (for those times darkstalker and Int to hide and damage aren't enough). Oh, and you're a master infiltrator, because you can be anybody.

***
Maybe drop cham and able learner for tiefling facto 8, swordsage 2+, and go combat oriented with improved trip/etc?

[UltraShiko]

That does sound like a fun idea. I’m not liking having to invest so much into Font of Inspiration.

That said, would I still want to pump Int with this build? I’d wager I would for the cunning bonuses. Also, would you suggest the 14 in Con or Wisdom? DM is allowing Max HP Rolls by default so a lower Con score doesn’t hurt as much.

Ngl the main reason I was looking at chain was for Shadow Blade. My only gripe is that I would need to grab this before Knowledge Devotion. I’d also be sacrificing more gp and Power Attack, hence why I’m considering Strength.

I love Cham, but I hate the Able Learner tax. Otherwise I’d likely stick to a Cham build. I’ve also considered a Shadow Sun build since a lot of my manuevers ironically lean into Shadow Hand and Setting sun. It could be a 10 level burn for the last 10 levels, though Shadow Sun Ninja is a little…interesting.

[lylsyly]

drop weapon focus spiked chain and replace it with weapon finesse spiked chain to use your dex tbonus to hit

[UltraShiko]

Weapon focus comes for free at Swordsage 1. Otherwise I would agree for aure

[ciopo]

A neat trick for chamaleon going dualcaster is entering as illumian with aeshkrau or uurkrau, to key bonus slot to either str or dex for both arcane and divine.

This seems an heavy deviation from your tripping plans tho.

The answer to not enough combat feats is usually taking one or two fighter levels

[UltraShiko]

I’ve considered Fighter 1 for Improved Trip alone. The lack of skills hurts like a bitch, but it’s better than needing Combat reflexes. I just need to see how this would impact my build

[lylsyly]

fighter bonus feats must still meet preregs. take a look at 2 levels of wolf totem barbarian. d12hd, improved trip without combat relexes, + 10 ft movement, uncanny dodge, the ability to go nuts with your chain once a day. maybe switch to the whirling frenzy variant as well. you would lose 8 skill point over the two levels but still. just putting out options.

[UltraShiko]

That’s some hella interesting character building right there lol.

I think my main issue is that I’m spreading myself too thin. The initial idea was to be a scout. So I gravitated to Factotum for the skills. I initially grabbed chain for shadow blade, howevever Dex builds need to cling to brains over braun for Tripping outside of manuevers. And the dex route is feat heavy unless I invest into feycraft, which loses PA, whereas all Str needs is power attack to come online.

I could look into a different weapon, though the setting sun and shadow hand weapons are pretty bad for strength builds, unless I go the twf route. I could either ignore the discipline focus, though my best bets are the falchion.

I could try unarmed, but then that needs the improved unarmed strike and monk variant of SS. I could also just stop at Facto 3, pump my knowledge skills, than just go SS.

Though truth be told, I should probably prioritize either the scouting or tripping aspect of my char. Both are fairly expensive

[lylsyly]

You want skills and The action economy of cunning surge right? Keep your spiked chain if it apeals to you (but please take weapon finesse) your basically going to be a medium bab class so power attack is kinda meh. I don't know how tied to Tiefling you are but human with able learner woud be my goto.
fact 1
barb 1
barb 2
fact 2 -8 now you have your cunning surge and a big decision to make. wannna cast spells or concentrate on scouting and skills?

so either chameleon ten or scout ten, scout would give you another +10 to movement, skirmish damage and some other thematic stuff plus 8 skill points per level.

The whole reason for able learner is that and 1 level of factotum literally makes all skills class skills forever.

[bean illus]

Brains over brawn and cunning knowledge will fix every skill need you have, and there are plenty of spells n things to add to skill rolls. A level of fighter won't affect that.

What an extra level does affect is your benchmarks. You can't get facto11/cham9/fighter1.
Now, you CAN do Facto 3/ F 2/ cham 2/
This makes you a chain tripper at low levels.

Maybe pick up channel spell. That's super fun on a chain with enlarge.

The question is, what do you want to do besides scout? Chameleon does everything, and scouts. It even gets divine power for full BAB.

There are benchmark levels in some classes. In facto those are levels 3, 8, 11. In chameleon 2, 5, 7, 9. If you figure the least or most you want of those classes, then you might have extra levels.

There's a chameleon build with 120' chain reach that turns enemies into trees with no save.

But tripping well, and in later levels takes investment. Factotum and FOI takes investment. Decent spell access takes investment. All 3 is very difficult.

But let's not forget that cham gets enlarge person, and righteous might, and all sorts of ways to boost trip, reach, and damage.

[UltraShiko]

Aside from scouting, I like the idea of being disruptive. Maybe throw a tangleweb bag at the golem? Slam someone with mighty throw in a position where the brute can get to him? Use my magic for glitterdust, grease, or anything that would hinder my foes. So in essence, control. The shadow hand concealment stuff is also nice

[UltraShiko]

You want skills and The action economy of cunning surge right? Keep your spiked chain if it apeals to you (but please take weapon finesse) your basically going to be a medium bab class so power attack is kinda meh. I don't know how tied to Tiefling you are but human with able learner woud be my goto.
fact 1
barb 1
barb 2
fact 2 -8 now you have your cunning surge and a big decision to make. wannna cast spells or concentrate on scouting and skills?

so either chameleon ten or scout ten, scout would give you another +10 to movement, skirmish damage and some other thematic stuff plus 8 skill points per level.

The whole reason for able learner is that and 1 level of factotum literally makes all skills class skills forever.

Interesting you recommend finesse but also barb levels. Do you recommend going Feycraft and saving on a feat slot entirely?

Also, shouldn’t I get Shadow Blade ASAP for dex to damage? My str likely won’t be above 14 at most on a dex build.

As for the scout vs Spells, I’ll likely go Scout. Though couldn’t Chameleon also scout? Sure the Scout class gets Skirmish, but when you can add +2 to Dex a day, a bonus feat, and a bonus to fort saves on Cham, I don’t know lol

[lylsyly]

spirit lion totem at barb 2 gives you pounce.

[bean illus]

As for the scout vs Spells, I’ll likely go Scout. Though couldn’t Chameleon also scout? Sure the Scout class gets Skirmish, but when you can add +2 to Dex a day, a bonus feat, and a bonus to fort saves on Cham, I don’t know lol

The chameleon build does everything (even without the touchstone + extra spell trick).
In higher level builds a chain and some skills aren't going to cut it. Where that is varies from one campaign to another, but it usually happens.

Facto 8/ Swordsage 2 looks viable, but i wouldn't build a swift hunter on it.

[UltraShiko]

In that case, how about…

Exoticist Fighter 1 (Spiked Chain prof and Combat Expertise)
Facto 3 (For pumpingknowledge skills, improved trip)
Swordsage X/WarbladeX

So now, I have a more combat focused build with just enough knowledge and facto investment to make the most out of my 18 INT.

Will likely go a STR for Knockdown. That way I can do a bit of lockdown with my tripping. Swordsage 2 will get me weapon focus, some extra AC, and of manuevers like Shadow Jaunt, Countercharge, and the setting sun throws for more utility.

Will probably spec into a heavy spiked chain for that extra bit of damage. Weapon Finesse doesn’t mean **** in a STR build

[UltraShiko]

spirit lion totem at barb 2 gives you pounce.

Not a bad idea, though I’m unsure if someone with a reach weapon will be charging too much.

[bean illus]

You still workin on this?

Facto 3 makes an awesome tripper. Int AND Str to attack and/or damage, up to 3 times per encounter, and Int + Str to trip, all without FOI. On top of that you have access to enlarge person. Unfortunately, it doesn't trip for 3 levels, but you want those 1st level skills, so ... facto at 1st.

Spiked chain and heavy spiked chain are 2 different feats, i believe. Exoticist fixes that. But you might skip combat expertise. You need combat reflexes.

Wolf Barbarian 2 grants imp trip, and the feat wolf berserker grants +4 more. Then spend your exoticisist feat on this ...

Exotic Attack: +2 trip using her exotic weapon (and disarm).

Something like ... Facto 3/ WB2 / EF 1

1 facto 1 cunning insight, combat reflexes
2 wolf barbarian fast movement +10'
3 wolf barbarian imp trip +4, wolf berserker +4

4 EWP spiked chain, Exotic Attack: +2 trip
5 facto 2
6 facto 3 brains over brawn, dilettante (enlarge person), open feat

Trip +4, +4, +2, +2 Str, +4 Int, +4 size = +20
Now you're a tripper. Go ahead and do whatever you want for 14 levels.

Try to get 30' reach, so that anyone who has skirmish, or ranged precision is threatened. There are ways to do it, if the campaign is optimized enough. If not, 20' reach will do. Get some teleport.

There're a bunch of ways to get minor (or major) teleport abilities. Blur abilities would be cool too.

Really, with 14 levels left, you can do anything. I suggest considering channel spell through your chain. If you can get teleport and channel spell that's great.

Maybe teleport wizard acf, and Duskblade 3-13?

[UltraShiko]

You still workin on this?

Facto 3 makes an awesome tripper. Int AND Str to attack and/or damage, up to 3 times per encounter, and Int + Str to trip, all b without FOI. On top of that you have access to enlarge person. Unfortunately, it doesn't trip for 3 levels, but you want those 1st level skills, so ... facto at 1st.

Spiked chain and heavy spiked chain are 2 different feats, i believe. Exoticist fixes that. But you might skip combat expertise. You need combat reflexes.

Wolf Barbarian 2 grants imp trip, and the feat wolf berserker grants +4 more. Then spend your exoticisist feat on this ...

Exotic Attack: +2 trip using her exotic weapon (and disarm).

Something like ... Facto 3/ WB2 / EF 1

1 facto 1 cunning insight, combat reflexes
2 wolf barbarian fast movement +10'
3 wolf barbarian imp trip +4, wolf berserker +4

4 EWP spiked chain, Exotic Attack: +2 trip
5 facto 2
6 facto 3 brains over brawn, dilettante (enlarge person), open feat

Trip +4, +4, +2, +2 Str, +4 Int, +4 size = +20
Now you're a tripper. Go ahead and do whatever you want for 14 levels.

Try to get 30' reach, so that anyone who has skirmish, or ranged precision is threatened. There are ways to do it, if the campaign is optimized enough. If not, 20' reach will do. Get some teleport.

There're a bunch of ways to get minor (or major) teleport abilities. Blur abilities would be cool too.

Really, with 14 levels left, you can do anything. I suggest considering channel spell through your chain. If you can get teleport and channel spell that's great.

Maybe teleport wizard acf, and Duskblade 3-13?

Would this build be able to afford the Darkstalker and Knowledge Devotion feats? I think this’ll be enough to scout

[bean illus]

Would this build be able to afford the Darkstalker and Knowledge Devotion feats? I think this’ll be enough to scout

Yes.
Your human feat, and your 6th feat are open. Or take them both at 1st, and pick up combat reflexes asap.

And yes, that's a lot of scout ability. Cunning knowledge is another scout ability. If you want to sneak at high level, you'll need magic.

Duskblade is great, if your playing at 9th. Channel spell and a few things.

Then maybe chameleon 2 for the tree shape spell. At level 11 you turn opponents into trees, no save.

[UltraShiko]

Yes.
Your human feat, and your 6th feat are open. Or take them both at 1st, and pick up combat reflexes asap.

And yes, that's a lot of scout ability. Cunning knowledge is another scout ability. If you want to sneak at high level, you'll need magic.

Duskblade is great, if your playing at 9th. Channel spell and a few things.

Then maybe chameleon 2 for the tree shape spell. At level 11 you turn opponents into trees, no save.

And if I were to take Lesser tiefling for that +2 Int, could the build still perform well? I like tieflings, even though a human flavored tiefling is an option, it still feels like a cop out. But at least I won’t need an eternal wand of darkvision