Black Lore of Moil question

[Sirperry]

First off, yes it is a lousy feat and it is expensive. But, how exactly does the damage apply?

If I add BLM to spectral hand, does the hand deal an extra 2D6 with each touch? Or only the first time? Or only the first time versus each foe?

If I add BLM to death armor, does it deal an extra 2D6 for EVERY melee attack against me? First time each round?

If I add BLM to horrid wilting, does everybody in the area take 5D6 extra?

TIA

[Tzardok]

I would say that the extra damage is added every time the spell deals damage, but I'm not sure wether it should apply to ordinarily non-damaging spells. The conservative choice would be no, but there's something oddly appealing about, for example, a fear spell that scares and damages.

[Sirperry]

Black Lore of Moil ( Complete Arcane, p. 75)

[Metamagic]

Your study of the sinister knowledge and spellcasting techniques of the long-dead Nightlords of Moil makes your necromancy spells especially potent.

Prerequisite: Spell Focus (PH) (necromancy) , caster level 7th

Benefit

Any necromancy spell you cast can be cast instead as a Moilian spell, dealing an extra 1d6 points of negative energy damage +1d6 per two spell levels (+1d6 for 1st-level spells, +2d6 for 2nd- or 3rd-level spells, and so on). If the spell normally allows a saving throw, the target takes half the negative energy damage on a successful save, regardless of the outcome of the save on the spell's normal effect. In addition to its normal spell components, a Moilian spell requires the creation and expenditure of a Moilian runebone-- a small human bone (often a fi nger bone) scribed with carefully prepared arcane markings. Only a character trained in the Black Lore of Moil knows the secrets of creating a runebone, which takes 1 hour to craft and requires special inks and powders costing 25 gp per die of negative energy damage to be generated. For example, a runebone capable of adding 3d6 points of negative energy damage to a spell costs 75 gp to craft. While the maximum negative energy damage dealt by a Moilian spell is based on the spell's level, the actual damage is limited by the runebone. For example, if a sorcerer casts fi nger of death (a 7th-level spell, so normally +4d6) with a 75-gp (3d6) runebone, the spell deals only 3d6 points of additional negative energy damage. A Moilian spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

[loky1109]

If the spell normally allows a saving throw, the target takes half the negative energy damage on a successful save
Spectral Hand has no target.
Death Armor has target: You.
Horrid Wilting has targets: Living creatures, no two of which can be more than 60 ft. apart.

So, BLoM doesn't work with Spectral Hand, damages you with Death Armor, and damages all creatures whom are damaged by Horrid Wilting.

[Sirperry]

Good points ! And bad examples on my part, I obviously was not paying attention.

So, Ray of enfeeblement targets a creature but the spell description doesn't designate a target. Does it work?

[loky1109]

Ray of enfeeblement has ray effect.

You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack... You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell.

I decide "yes" for rays in my games, but it most likely is "no".

[ShurikVch]

If the spell normally allows a saving throw, the target takes half the negative energy damage on a successful save
Spectral Hand has no target.
Ahem...

If the spell normally allows a saving throw, the target takes half the negative energy damage on a successful save
Are we really need a target, if the spell don't allow a saving throw?

[Sirperry]

I don't really think targets are necessary either, but I was wanting opinions and feedback.

I think necromantic rays should work, as well as cones and area effect spells, but is there anything I am failing to consider?

What about damage over time spells such as burning blood or finger of agony? Apply the damage or no? Once or every time?

[loky1109]

Yes, we need. "Spell with saving throw" case in this description is an exception from more general case "spells" and "target" is needed in general case, too.

[Wintermoot]

I don't really think targets are necessary either, but I was wanting opinions and feedback.

I think necromantic rays should work, as well as cones and area effect spells, but is there anything I am failing to consider?

What about damage over time spells such as burning blood or finger of agony? Apply the damage or no? Once or every time?

To me, it clearly intends to deal the extra damage once per spell. So multiple targets of a single spell will each get the damage (for area of effect or multiple target spells) but spells that deal damage multiple times over time, they only do the extra damage the first time they do damage.

[Sirperry]

I agree Wintermoot, i was wondering if anyone would take the other side of that argument.

How about Black Tentacles (assume it is necromancy for the sake of argument)? Apply extra damage, but once only per foe?

[ShurikVch]

Yes, we need. "Spell with saving throw" case in this description is an exception from more general case "spells" and "target" is needed in general case, too.
Then what's about the spells which don't have "Target:", but have "Area:"?
Dance of Ruin (Book of Vile Darkness)
Death's Call (Complete Mage)
Ectoplasmic Decay (Ghostwalk)
Heat Drain (Spell Compendium)
Junglerazer (Spell Compendium)
Miasma of Entropy (Planar Handbook)
Phoenix Fire (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Ravage (Champions of Ruin)
Wail of Doom (Spell Compendium)
Weighed in the Balance (Spell Compendium)

[Wintermoot]

I agree Wintermoot, i was wondering if anyone would take the other side of that argument.

How about Black Tentacles (assume it is necromancy for the sake of argument)? Apply extra damage, but once only per foe?

Apply the extra damage to any foes entangled on the first round of the tentacles doing damage I suppose. So you cast it at an area containing a group of five orcs. Three of them are entangled, but two are either outside the range or evade the initial round. The three entangled on round one of the casting take the extra damage. The other two get entangled on later rounds and only take normal damage. That seems the closest way to adjudicate based on what I think is the intent of the metamagic.

Although, in that particular case, I don't see a problem with just adjudicating that anyone who ever takes damage from the spell, gets the bonus damage but only the first time they take the damage. I would be fine with that on a balance perspective. And it would be easier to track that way.

[Sirperry]

Then what's about the spells which don't have "Target:", but have "Area:"?
Dance of Ruin (Book of Vile Darkness)
Death's Call (Complete Mage)
Ectoplasmic Decay (Ghostwalk)
Heat Drain (Spell Compendium)
Junglerazer (Spell Compendium)
Miasma of Entropy (Planar Handbook)
Phoenix Fire (Book of Exalted Deeds)
Ravage (Champions of Ruin)
Wail of Doom (Spell Compendium)
Weighed in the Balance (Spell Compendium)

It seems reasonable to me that most of those would work. Although a couple of them have restrictions:
miasma of entropy affects non living matter, so I think it would not work (unless you want to cause damage to items).
junglerazer affects only certain critters, so I think only those critters would take the extra damage.

[Sirperry]

Apply the extra damage to any foes entangled on the first round of the tentacles doing damage I suppose. So you cast it at an area containing a group of five orcs. Three of them are entangled, but two are either outside the range or evade the initial round. The three entangled on round one of the casting take the extra damage. The other two get entangled on later rounds and only take normal damage. That seems the closest way to adjudicate based on what I think is the intent of the metamagic.

Although, in that particular case, I don't see a problem with just adjudicating that anyone who ever takes damage from the spell, gets the bonus damage but only the first time they take the damage. I would be fine with that on a balance perspective. And it would be easier to track that way.

The latter solution seems both fairest and easiest.

[Bohandas]

damages you with Death Armor

Unless you're undead

[ShurikVch]

junglerazer affects only certain critters, so I think only those critters would take the extra damage.
Note: if you're OK with the "only certain critters" limitation - then how about the Excised From the Web Of Life feat (Dragon #336)?
It adds damage - equal to your CL - to any of your spell - but only to creatures of Animal, Fey, or Plant type
It isn't a metamagic - literally all of your spells can be affected (as long as you wish it - there is "on/off" option) - even spells which usually do no damage
If the spell allowed no save previously - then those creatures can make a Fort save against it
If you get this feat, you suffer penalty - equal to your level - on all Cha-based checks vs creatures of Animal, Fey, or Plant type
You can get this feat as Wizard Bonus Feat